How can you estimate a spike story?In Scrum, how to estimate research stories?Sizing an entire backlog using story pointsIn Scrum, how to estimate research stories?How can developers and testers agree on story point estimates?How to factor in story points/tasks for non sprint related items?How can you estimate workload for scrum when you have 4 disciplines in one teamStory point on team with separate technologiesHow to estimate a project budget using story points?Alternatives to estimating in hours/story pointsHow to schedule back and front-end developers based on story points?Story Points flaw?
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How can you estimate a spike story?
In Scrum, how to estimate research stories?Sizing an entire backlog using story pointsIn Scrum, how to estimate research stories?How can developers and testers agree on story point estimates?How to factor in story points/tasks for non sprint related items?How can you estimate workload for scrum when you have 4 disciplines in one teamStory point on team with separate technologiesHow to estimate a project budget using story points?Alternatives to estimating in hours/story pointsHow to schedule back and front-end developers based on story points?Story Points flaw?
We are working on a technology of which the team is not sure how would it go.I would like to estimate and timebox this story.However,the scrum team has to goal or a shippable product at the end of this story.
agile story-points sprint-planning
asked Jun 10 at 12:41
Zankhana DesaiZankhana Desai
515
add a comment |
We are working on a technology of which the team is not sure how would it go.I would like to estimate and timebox this story.However,the scrum team has to goal or a shippable product at the end of this story.
agile story-points sprint-planning
asked Jun 10 at 12:41
Zankhana DesaiZankhana Desai
515
Related: pm.stackexchange.com/questions/8611/…
– Aziz Shaikh
Jun 11 at 10:14
add a comment |
We are working on a technology of which the team is not sure how would it go.I would like to estimate and timebox this story.However,the scrum team has to goal or a shippable product at the end of this story.
agile story-points sprint-planning
asked Jun 10 at 12:41
Zankhana DesaiZankhana Desai
515
We are working on a technology of which the team is not sure how would it go.I would like to estimate and timebox this story.However,the scrum team has to goal or a shippable product at the end of this story.
agile story-points sprint-planning
agile story-points sprint-planning
asked Jun 10 at 12:41
Zankhana DesaiZankhana Desai
515
asked Jun 10 at 12:41
Zankhana DesaiZankhana Desai
515
asked Jun 10 at 12:41
Zankhana DesaiZankhana Desai
515
asked Jun 10 at 12:41
Zankhana DesaiZankhana Desai
515
asked Jun 10 at 12:41
Zankhana DesaiZankhana Desai
515
515
Related: pm.stackexchange.com/questions/8611/…
– Aziz Shaikh
Jun 11 at 10:14
add a comment |
Related: pm.stackexchange.com/questions/8611/…
– Aziz Shaikh
Jun 11 at 10:14
Related: pm.stackexchange.com/questions/8611/…
– Aziz Shaikh
Jun 11 at 10:14
Related: pm.stackexchange.com/questions/8611/…
– Aziz Shaikh
Jun 11 at 10:14
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
Two things jump out at me.
First, the end result of a Spike is not a shippable product. Spikes are used to learn, and do research. The end result is an answer to a question or finding some information or gaining knowledge in a given area. That doesn't mean that there's not an output associated with a Spike, but it's almost certainly not a shippable product. It also doesn't mean that an iteration that contains a Spike can't also result in a shippable increment that results from other work done.
Second, you shouldn't estimate Spikes. I consider a Spike to be a well-bounded form of backlog refinement activities. One of the end result should be better defined work items in the team's backlog. If you're using Scrum, it is suggested that the team would spend about 10% of its capacity on refinement activities, but this is not a maximum - it can be much more, if necessary. Other frameworks may offer different guidance. The work done to a Spike would fall into the backlog refinement activities, which would be capped at the team.
So: don't estimate Spikes, but do consider the total team effort to perform refinement activities when planning your iteration.
answered Jun 10 at 13:10
Thomas OwensThomas Owens
5,3311430
Note that most teams (and especially managers of said teams) interpret estimates to be upper boundaries of how long a task can take before management can user it as a measure of your (insufficient) workspeed. In that sense, spikes should have an actual upper boundary, but you're right that the boundary is not necessarily an accurate reflection of estimated work (some spikes are so unknown that you may end up finding the answer is considerably less time than you expected).
– Flater
Jun 11 at 14:53
@Flater If you're using iterations (and given the tagsprint-planning, I assume is the case here), then the timebox is one iteration. If the item can't be done in one iteration, it should be decomposed into work that can be done within one iteration. Of course, it is hard to tell how long something will take. But once you invest some time in it, you should be able to start asking questions about what to do.
– Thomas Owens
Jun 11 at 15:09
Maybe it's a misuse of spikes then, but in my experience they're often used for research into new technologies (e.g. seeing if something is viable) which can end up wildly varying in how long you need to get a proof of concept off the ground. Also, in my experience not every task/spike takes exactly one sprint's length so I'm not sure about innately equating the two durations.
– Flater
Jun 11 at 15:12
add a comment |
Spikes are typically time-boxed, so it is usually easy to work out the impact they will have on a sprint.
For example, you might time-box a spike on a new technology to be one developer for one day.
The idea with a spike is to do just enough investigation so that the team is then able to estimate the work.
If at the end of the spike the team still does not feel confident enough to estimate then you could potentially do a further spike or alternatively try and break the work down.
answered Jun 10 at 17:01
Barnaby GoldenBarnaby Golden
10.4k1826
My sprint has multiple spikes for an intial project we are working on so I need to have a report which will have details on what the team did.So the 10% idea wont be a solution.
– Zankhana Desai
Jun 11 at 14:30
1
Typically in a Scrum team the Product Owner would have been involved in planning and so would be aware of what spikes were being brought in to the sprint. They would also get to see the work during the sprint and at the sprint review meeting. That would typically be considered as sufficient reporting.
– Barnaby Golden
Jun 11 at 18:07
add a comment |
Not every story in a sprint needs to result in a (potentially) shippable product. But as a sprint typically contains multiple stories, it should still be possible to have a (potentially) shippable product at the end of the sprint without having one after each story is completed.
The objective of a spike is to gain knowledge that can be used later when working on stories in that area. As such a spike doesn't directly contribute to a shippable product, but gaining knowledge in a particular area can even be a valid sprint goal.
As for estimating a spike, the team will most likely push back if you ask them how much effort it will be to do the investigation, especially as it will most likely be uncharted territory for the team. But what you can do as an estimation is establish how much time you all are prepared to invest in the investigation. That should give you some insight in the team capacity that goes into the research and how much capacity is left for the other work you want to plan.
answered Jun 10 at 14:07
Bart van Ingen SchenauBart van Ingen Schenau
1,382610
add a comment |
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Two things jump out at me.
First, the end result of a Spike is not a shippable product. Spikes are used to learn, and do research. The end result is an answer to a question or finding some information or gaining knowledge in a given area. That doesn't mean that there's not an output associated with a Spike, but it's almost certainly not a shippable product. It also doesn't mean that an iteration that contains a Spike can't also result in a shippable increment that results from other work done.
Second, you shouldn't estimate Spikes. I consider a Spike to be a well-bounded form of backlog refinement activities. One of the end result should be better defined work items in the team's backlog. If you're using Scrum, it is suggested that the team would spend about 10% of its capacity on refinement activities, but this is not a maximum - it can be much more, if necessary. Other frameworks may offer different guidance. The work done to a Spike would fall into the backlog refinement activities, which would be capped at the team.
So: don't estimate Spikes, but do consider the total team effort to perform refinement activities when planning your iteration.
answered Jun 10 at 13:10
Thomas OwensThomas Owens
5,3311430
Note that most teams (and especially managers of said teams) interpret estimates to be upper boundaries of how long a task can take before management can user it as a measure of your (insufficient) workspeed. In that sense, spikes should have an actual upper boundary, but you're right that the boundary is not necessarily an accurate reflection of estimated work (some spikes are so unknown that you may end up finding the answer is considerably less time than you expected).
– Flater
Jun 11 at 14:53
@Flater If you're using iterations (and given the tagsprint-planning, I assume is the case here), then the timebox is one iteration. If the item can't be done in one iteration, it should be decomposed into work that can be done within one iteration. Of course, it is hard to tell how long something will take. But once you invest some time in it, you should be able to start asking questions about what to do.
– Thomas Owens
Jun 11 at 15:09
Maybe it's a misuse of spikes then, but in my experience they're often used for research into new technologies (e.g. seeing if something is viable) which can end up wildly varying in how long you need to get a proof of concept off the ground. Also, in my experience not every task/spike takes exactly one sprint's length so I'm not sure about innately equating the two durations.
– Flater
Jun 11 at 15:12
add a comment |
Two things jump out at me.
First, the end result of a Spike is not a shippable product. Spikes are used to learn, and do research. The end result is an answer to a question or finding some information or gaining knowledge in a given area. That doesn't mean that there's not an output associated with a Spike, but it's almost certainly not a shippable product. It also doesn't mean that an iteration that contains a Spike can't also result in a shippable increment that results from other work done.
Second, you shouldn't estimate Spikes. I consider a Spike to be a well-bounded form of backlog refinement activities. One of the end result should be better defined work items in the team's backlog. If you're using Scrum, it is suggested that the team would spend about 10% of its capacity on refinement activities, but this is not a maximum - it can be much more, if necessary. Other frameworks may offer different guidance. The work done to a Spike would fall into the backlog refinement activities, which would be capped at the team.
So: don't estimate Spikes, but do consider the total team effort to perform refinement activities when planning your iteration.
answered Jun 10 at 13:10
Thomas OwensThomas Owens
5,3311430
Note that most teams (and especially managers of said teams) interpret estimates to be upper boundaries of how long a task can take before management can user it as a measure of your (insufficient) workspeed. In that sense, spikes should have an actual upper boundary, but you're right that the boundary is not necessarily an accurate reflection of estimated work (some spikes are so unknown that you may end up finding the answer is considerably less time than you expected).
– Flater
Jun 11 at 14:53
@Flater If you're using iterations (and given the tagsprint-planning, I assume is the case here), then the timebox is one iteration. If the item can't be done in one iteration, it should be decomposed into work that can be done within one iteration. Of course, it is hard to tell how long something will take. But once you invest some time in it, you should be able to start asking questions about what to do.
– Thomas Owens
Jun 11 at 15:09
Maybe it's a misuse of spikes then, but in my experience they're often used for research into new technologies (e.g. seeing if something is viable) which can end up wildly varying in how long you need to get a proof of concept off the ground. Also, in my experience not every task/spike takes exactly one sprint's length so I'm not sure about innately equating the two durations.
– Flater
Jun 11 at 15:12
add a comment |
Two things jump out at me.
First, the end result of a Spike is not a shippable product. Spikes are used to learn, and do research. The end result is an answer to a question or finding some information or gaining knowledge in a given area. That doesn't mean that there's not an output associated with a Spike, but it's almost certainly not a shippable product. It also doesn't mean that an iteration that contains a Spike can't also result in a shippable increment that results from other work done.
Second, you shouldn't estimate Spikes. I consider a Spike to be a well-bounded form of backlog refinement activities. One of the end result should be better defined work items in the team's backlog. If you're using Scrum, it is suggested that the team would spend about 10% of its capacity on refinement activities, but this is not a maximum - it can be much more, if necessary. Other frameworks may offer different guidance. The work done to a Spike would fall into the backlog refinement activities, which would be capped at the team.
So: don't estimate Spikes, but do consider the total team effort to perform refinement activities when planning your iteration.
answered Jun 10 at 13:10
Thomas OwensThomas Owens
5,3311430
Two things jump out at me.
First, the end result of a Spike is not a shippable product. Spikes are used to learn, and do research. The end result is an answer to a question or finding some information or gaining knowledge in a given area. That doesn't mean that there's not an output associated with a Spike, but it's almost certainly not a shippable product. It also doesn't mean that an iteration that contains a Spike can't also result in a shippable increment that results from other work done.
Second, you shouldn't estimate Spikes. I consider a Spike to be a well-bounded form of backlog refinement activities. One of the end result should be better defined work items in the team's backlog. If you're using Scrum, it is suggested that the team would spend about 10% of its capacity on refinement activities, but this is not a maximum - it can be much more, if necessary. Other frameworks may offer different guidance. The work done to a Spike would fall into the backlog refinement activities, which would be capped at the team.
So: don't estimate Spikes, but do consider the total team effort to perform refinement activities when planning your iteration.
answered Jun 10 at 13:10
Thomas OwensThomas Owens
5,3311430
answered Jun 10 at 13:10
Thomas OwensThomas Owens
5,3311430
answered Jun 10 at 13:10
Thomas OwensThomas Owens
5,3311430
answered Jun 10 at 13:10
Thomas OwensThomas Owens
5,3311430
5,3311430
Note that most teams (and especially managers of said teams) interpret estimates to be upper boundaries of how long a task can take before management can user it as a measure of your (insufficient) workspeed. In that sense, spikes should have an actual upper boundary, but you're right that the boundary is not necessarily an accurate reflection of estimated work (some spikes are so unknown that you may end up finding the answer is considerably less time than you expected).
– Flater
Jun 11 at 14:53
@Flater If you're using iterations (and given the tagsprint-planning, I assume is the case here), then the timebox is one iteration. If the item can't be done in one iteration, it should be decomposed into work that can be done within one iteration. Of course, it is hard to tell how long something will take. But once you invest some time in it, you should be able to start asking questions about what to do.
– Thomas Owens
Jun 11 at 15:09
Maybe it's a misuse of spikes then, but in my experience they're often used for research into new technologies (e.g. seeing if something is viable) which can end up wildly varying in how long you need to get a proof of concept off the ground. Also, in my experience not every task/spike takes exactly one sprint's length so I'm not sure about innately equating the two durations.
– Flater
Jun 11 at 15:12
add a comment |
Note that most teams (and especially managers of said teams) interpret estimates to be upper boundaries of how long a task can take before management can user it as a measure of your (insufficient) workspeed. In that sense, spikes should have an actual upper boundary, but you're right that the boundary is not necessarily an accurate reflection of estimated work (some spikes are so unknown that you may end up finding the answer is considerably less time than you expected).
– Flater
Jun 11 at 14:53
@Flater If you're using iterations (and given the tagsprint-planning, I assume is the case here), then the timebox is one iteration. If the item can't be done in one iteration, it should be decomposed into work that can be done within one iteration. Of course, it is hard to tell how long something will take. But once you invest some time in it, you should be able to start asking questions about what to do.
– Thomas Owens
Jun 11 at 15:09
Maybe it's a misuse of spikes then, but in my experience they're often used for research into new technologies (e.g. seeing if something is viable) which can end up wildly varying in how long you need to get a proof of concept off the ground. Also, in my experience not every task/spike takes exactly one sprint's length so I'm not sure about innately equating the two durations.
– Flater
Jun 11 at 15:12
Note that most teams (and especially managers of said teams) interpret estimates to be upper boundaries of how long a task can take before management can user it as a measure of your (insufficient) workspeed. In that sense, spikes should have an actual upper boundary, but you're right that the boundary is not necessarily an accurate reflection of estimated work (some spikes are so unknown that you may end up finding the answer is considerably less time than you expected).
– Flater
Jun 11 at 14:53
Note that most teams (and especially managers of said teams) interpret estimates to be upper boundaries of how long a task can take before management can user it as a measure of your (insufficient) workspeed. In that sense, spikes should have an actual upper boundary, but you're right that the boundary is not necessarily an accurate reflection of estimated work (some spikes are so unknown that you may end up finding the answer is considerably less time than you expected).
– Flater
Jun 11 at 14:53
@Flater If you're using iterations (and given the tag
sprint-planning, I assume is the case here), then the timebox is one iteration. If the item can't be done in one iteration, it should be decomposed into work that can be done within one iteration. Of course, it is hard to tell how long something will take. But once you invest some time in it, you should be able to start asking questions about what to do.– Thomas Owens
Jun 11 at 15:09
@Flater If you're using iterations (and given the tag
sprint-planning, I assume is the case here), then the timebox is one iteration. If the item can't be done in one iteration, it should be decomposed into work that can be done within one iteration. Of course, it is hard to tell how long something will take. But once you invest some time in it, you should be able to start asking questions about what to do.– Thomas Owens
Jun 11 at 15:09
Maybe it's a misuse of spikes then, but in my experience they're often used for research into new technologies (e.g. seeing if something is viable) which can end up wildly varying in how long you need to get a proof of concept off the ground. Also, in my experience not every task/spike takes exactly one sprint's length so I'm not sure about innately equating the two durations.
– Flater
Jun 11 at 15:12
Maybe it's a misuse of spikes then, but in my experience they're often used for research into new technologies (e.g. seeing if something is viable) which can end up wildly varying in how long you need to get a proof of concept off the ground. Also, in my experience not every task/spike takes exactly one sprint's length so I'm not sure about innately equating the two durations.
– Flater
Jun 11 at 15:12
add a comment |
Spikes are typically time-boxed, so it is usually easy to work out the impact they will have on a sprint.
For example, you might time-box a spike on a new technology to be one developer for one day.
The idea with a spike is to do just enough investigation so that the team is then able to estimate the work.
If at the end of the spike the team still does not feel confident enough to estimate then you could potentially do a further spike or alternatively try and break the work down.
answered Jun 10 at 17:01
Barnaby GoldenBarnaby Golden
10.4k1826
My sprint has multiple spikes for an intial project we are working on so I need to have a report which will have details on what the team did.So the 10% idea wont be a solution.
– Zankhana Desai
Jun 11 at 14:30
1
Typically in a Scrum team the Product Owner would have been involved in planning and so would be aware of what spikes were being brought in to the sprint. They would also get to see the work during the sprint and at the sprint review meeting. That would typically be considered as sufficient reporting.
– Barnaby Golden
Jun 11 at 18:07
add a comment |
Spikes are typically time-boxed, so it is usually easy to work out the impact they will have on a sprint.
For example, you might time-box a spike on a new technology to be one developer for one day.
The idea with a spike is to do just enough investigation so that the team is then able to estimate the work.
If at the end of the spike the team still does not feel confident enough to estimate then you could potentially do a further spike or alternatively try and break the work down.
answered Jun 10 at 17:01
Barnaby GoldenBarnaby Golden
10.4k1826
My sprint has multiple spikes for an intial project we are working on so I need to have a report which will have details on what the team did.So the 10% idea wont be a solution.
– Zankhana Desai
Jun 11 at 14:30
1
Typically in a Scrum team the Product Owner would have been involved in planning and so would be aware of what spikes were being brought in to the sprint. They would also get to see the work during the sprint and at the sprint review meeting. That would typically be considered as sufficient reporting.
– Barnaby Golden
Jun 11 at 18:07
add a comment |
Spikes are typically time-boxed, so it is usually easy to work out the impact they will have on a sprint.
For example, you might time-box a spike on a new technology to be one developer for one day.
The idea with a spike is to do just enough investigation so that the team is then able to estimate the work.
If at the end of the spike the team still does not feel confident enough to estimate then you could potentially do a further spike or alternatively try and break the work down.
answered Jun 10 at 17:01
Barnaby GoldenBarnaby Golden
10.4k1826
Spikes are typically time-boxed, so it is usually easy to work out the impact they will have on a sprint.
For example, you might time-box a spike on a new technology to be one developer for one day.
The idea with a spike is to do just enough investigation so that the team is then able to estimate the work.
If at the end of the spike the team still does not feel confident enough to estimate then you could potentially do a further spike or alternatively try and break the work down.
answered Jun 10 at 17:01
Barnaby GoldenBarnaby Golden
10.4k1826
answered Jun 10 at 17:01
Barnaby GoldenBarnaby Golden
10.4k1826
answered Jun 10 at 17:01
Barnaby GoldenBarnaby Golden
10.4k1826
answered Jun 10 at 17:01
Barnaby GoldenBarnaby Golden
10.4k1826
10.4k1826
My sprint has multiple spikes for an intial project we are working on so I need to have a report which will have details on what the team did.So the 10% idea wont be a solution.
– Zankhana Desai
Jun 11 at 14:30
1
Typically in a Scrum team the Product Owner would have been involved in planning and so would be aware of what spikes were being brought in to the sprint. They would also get to see the work during the sprint and at the sprint review meeting. That would typically be considered as sufficient reporting.
– Barnaby Golden
Jun 11 at 18:07
add a comment |
My sprint has multiple spikes for an intial project we are working on so I need to have a report which will have details on what the team did.So the 10% idea wont be a solution.
– Zankhana Desai
Jun 11 at 14:30
1
Typically in a Scrum team the Product Owner would have been involved in planning and so would be aware of what spikes were being brought in to the sprint. They would also get to see the work during the sprint and at the sprint review meeting. That would typically be considered as sufficient reporting.
– Barnaby Golden
Jun 11 at 18:07
My sprint has multiple spikes for an intial project we are working on so I need to have a report which will have details on what the team did.So the 10% idea wont be a solution.
– Zankhana Desai
Jun 11 at 14:30
My sprint has multiple spikes for an intial project we are working on so I need to have a report which will have details on what the team did.So the 10% idea wont be a solution.
– Zankhana Desai
Jun 11 at 14:30
1
1
Typically in a Scrum team the Product Owner would have been involved in planning and so would be aware of what spikes were being brought in to the sprint. They would also get to see the work during the sprint and at the sprint review meeting. That would typically be considered as sufficient reporting.
– Barnaby Golden
Jun 11 at 18:07
Typically in a Scrum team the Product Owner would have been involved in planning and so would be aware of what spikes were being brought in to the sprint. They would also get to see the work during the sprint and at the sprint review meeting. That would typically be considered as sufficient reporting.
– Barnaby Golden
Jun 11 at 18:07
add a comment |
Not every story in a sprint needs to result in a (potentially) shippable product. But as a sprint typically contains multiple stories, it should still be possible to have a (potentially) shippable product at the end of the sprint without having one after each story is completed.
The objective of a spike is to gain knowledge that can be used later when working on stories in that area. As such a spike doesn't directly contribute to a shippable product, but gaining knowledge in a particular area can even be a valid sprint goal.
As for estimating a spike, the team will most likely push back if you ask them how much effort it will be to do the investigation, especially as it will most likely be uncharted territory for the team. But what you can do as an estimation is establish how much time you all are prepared to invest in the investigation. That should give you some insight in the team capacity that goes into the research and how much capacity is left for the other work you want to plan.
answered Jun 10 at 14:07
Bart van Ingen SchenauBart van Ingen Schenau
1,382610
add a comment |
Not every story in a sprint needs to result in a (potentially) shippable product. But as a sprint typically contains multiple stories, it should still be possible to have a (potentially) shippable product at the end of the sprint without having one after each story is completed.
The objective of a spike is to gain knowledge that can be used later when working on stories in that area. As such a spike doesn't directly contribute to a shippable product, but gaining knowledge in a particular area can even be a valid sprint goal.
As for estimating a spike, the team will most likely push back if you ask them how much effort it will be to do the investigation, especially as it will most likely be uncharted territory for the team. But what you can do as an estimation is establish how much time you all are prepared to invest in the investigation. That should give you some insight in the team capacity that goes into the research and how much capacity is left for the other work you want to plan.
answered Jun 10 at 14:07
Bart van Ingen SchenauBart van Ingen Schenau
1,382610
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Not every story in a sprint needs to result in a (potentially) shippable product. But as a sprint typically contains multiple stories, it should still be possible to have a (potentially) shippable product at the end of the sprint without having one after each story is completed.
The objective of a spike is to gain knowledge that can be used later when working on stories in that area. As such a spike doesn't directly contribute to a shippable product, but gaining knowledge in a particular area can even be a valid sprint goal.
As for estimating a spike, the team will most likely push back if you ask them how much effort it will be to do the investigation, especially as it will most likely be uncharted territory for the team. But what you can do as an estimation is establish how much time you all are prepared to invest in the investigation. That should give you some insight in the team capacity that goes into the research and how much capacity is left for the other work you want to plan.
answered Jun 10 at 14:07
Bart van Ingen SchenauBart van Ingen Schenau
1,382610
Not every story in a sprint needs to result in a (potentially) shippable product. But as a sprint typically contains multiple stories, it should still be possible to have a (potentially) shippable product at the end of the sprint without having one after each story is completed.
The objective of a spike is to gain knowledge that can be used later when working on stories in that area. As such a spike doesn't directly contribute to a shippable product, but gaining knowledge in a particular area can even be a valid sprint goal.
As for estimating a spike, the team will most likely push back if you ask them how much effort it will be to do the investigation, especially as it will most likely be uncharted territory for the team. But what you can do as an estimation is establish how much time you all are prepared to invest in the investigation. That should give you some insight in the team capacity that goes into the research and how much capacity is left for the other work you want to plan.
answered Jun 10 at 14:07
Bart van Ingen SchenauBart van Ingen Schenau
1,382610
answered Jun 10 at 14:07
Bart van Ingen SchenauBart van Ingen Schenau
1,382610
answered Jun 10 at 14:07
Bart van Ingen SchenauBart van Ingen Schenau
1,382610
answered Jun 10 at 14:07
Bart van Ingen SchenauBart van Ingen Schenau
1,382610
1,382610
add a comment |
add a comment |
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