Why doesn't this proof show that the operation on a factor group is well-defined?Why do we define quotient groups for normal subgroups only?The notation $prod_gin G g$ for a finite group not well-defined.Let $A$ be maximal among abelian normal subgroups of a $p$-group and show that $A=C_P(A)$Coset Multiplication and well-defined.Operation with normal subgroupLet H be a subgroup of a multiplicative group G such that the product of any two of left cosets of H is a left coset of H.Quotient group is well-definedShow that the dihedral group $(D_n,circ)$ is a sub-group of $(D,circ)$.Factor groups and well defined functionsHow to show that every group in the normal series of $G$ is normal in $G$Understanding the implication of what “well-defined” means for the operation in quotient group

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Why doesn't this proof show that the operation on a factor group is well-defined?


Why do we define quotient groups for normal subgroups only?The notation $prod_gin G g$ for a finite group not well-defined.Let $A$ be maximal among abelian normal subgroups of a $p$-group and show that $A=C_P(A)$Coset Multiplication and well-defined.Operation with normal subgroupLet H be a subgroup of a multiplicative group G such that the product of any two of left cosets of H is a left coset of H.Quotient group is well-definedShow that the dihedral group $(D_n,circ)$ is a sub-group of $(D,circ)$.Factor groups and well defined functionsHow to show that every group in the normal series of $G$ is normal in $G$Understanding the implication of what “well-defined” means for the operation in quotient group






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








11












$begingroup$


Suppose $G$ is a group and let $H triangleleft G$. Consider the factor group $G/H$ where the relation is $aHbH = abH$ for all $a,b in G$.



Suppose we wanted to show that the above relation is well-defined. Then we would pick some elements $a,b,c,d in G$ such that $aH = cH$ and $bH = dH$. I then would have to show that $aHbH = cHdH$, which is the same as showing that $abH = cdH$.



Question. Couldn't we begin with the left hand side of the equation $aHbH = cHdH$ and substitute $cH$ for $aH$ and $dH$ for $bH$? This would result in
$$aHbH = (cH)(dH) = cHdH$$



The proof in the book doesn't proceed in this way, and although I understand the author's proof, I don't understand why the above method wouldn't work.



I have looked at other questions regarding this, but my question is addressing why we can't substitute our assumed equations $aH=cH$ and $bH=dH$ into the expression $aHbH$?



Thanks!










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Although not directly your question, you might find math.stackexchange.com/a/14315 useful. It defines well defined (that is, if $xH = x'H$ and $yH=y'H$ then $xyH = x'y'H$).
    $endgroup$
    – Micha Wiedenmann
    Aug 2 at 11:29


















11












$begingroup$


Suppose $G$ is a group and let $H triangleleft G$. Consider the factor group $G/H$ where the relation is $aHbH = abH$ for all $a,b in G$.



Suppose we wanted to show that the above relation is well-defined. Then we would pick some elements $a,b,c,d in G$ such that $aH = cH$ and $bH = dH$. I then would have to show that $aHbH = cHdH$, which is the same as showing that $abH = cdH$.



Question. Couldn't we begin with the left hand side of the equation $aHbH = cHdH$ and substitute $cH$ for $aH$ and $dH$ for $bH$? This would result in
$$aHbH = (cH)(dH) = cHdH$$



The proof in the book doesn't proceed in this way, and although I understand the author's proof, I don't understand why the above method wouldn't work.



I have looked at other questions regarding this, but my question is addressing why we can't substitute our assumed equations $aH=cH$ and $bH=dH$ into the expression $aHbH$?



Thanks!










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Although not directly your question, you might find math.stackexchange.com/a/14315 useful. It defines well defined (that is, if $xH = x'H$ and $yH=y'H$ then $xyH = x'y'H$).
    $endgroup$
    – Micha Wiedenmann
    Aug 2 at 11:29














11












11








11


1



$begingroup$


Suppose $G$ is a group and let $H triangleleft G$. Consider the factor group $G/H$ where the relation is $aHbH = abH$ for all $a,b in G$.



Suppose we wanted to show that the above relation is well-defined. Then we would pick some elements $a,b,c,d in G$ such that $aH = cH$ and $bH = dH$. I then would have to show that $aHbH = cHdH$, which is the same as showing that $abH = cdH$.



Question. Couldn't we begin with the left hand side of the equation $aHbH = cHdH$ and substitute $cH$ for $aH$ and $dH$ for $bH$? This would result in
$$aHbH = (cH)(dH) = cHdH$$



The proof in the book doesn't proceed in this way, and although I understand the author's proof, I don't understand why the above method wouldn't work.



I have looked at other questions regarding this, but my question is addressing why we can't substitute our assumed equations $aH=cH$ and $bH=dH$ into the expression $aHbH$?



Thanks!










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Suppose $G$ is a group and let $H triangleleft G$. Consider the factor group $G/H$ where the relation is $aHbH = abH$ for all $a,b in G$.



Suppose we wanted to show that the above relation is well-defined. Then we would pick some elements $a,b,c,d in G$ such that $aH = cH$ and $bH = dH$. I then would have to show that $aHbH = cHdH$, which is the same as showing that $abH = cdH$.



Question. Couldn't we begin with the left hand side of the equation $aHbH = cHdH$ and substitute $cH$ for $aH$ and $dH$ for $bH$? This would result in
$$aHbH = (cH)(dH) = cHdH$$



The proof in the book doesn't proceed in this way, and although I understand the author's proof, I don't understand why the above method wouldn't work.



I have looked at other questions regarding this, but my question is addressing why we can't substitute our assumed equations $aH=cH$ and $bH=dH$ into the expression $aHbH$?



Thanks!







abstract-algebra fake-proofs






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Aug 3 at 2:28







Jeremiah Dunivin

















asked Aug 1 at 22:04









Jeremiah DunivinJeremiah Dunivin

1,5079 silver badges32 bronze badges




1,5079 silver badges32 bronze badges














  • $begingroup$
    Although not directly your question, you might find math.stackexchange.com/a/14315 useful. It defines well defined (that is, if $xH = x'H$ and $yH=y'H$ then $xyH = x'y'H$).
    $endgroup$
    – Micha Wiedenmann
    Aug 2 at 11:29

















  • $begingroup$
    Although not directly your question, you might find math.stackexchange.com/a/14315 useful. It defines well defined (that is, if $xH = x'H$ and $yH=y'H$ then $xyH = x'y'H$).
    $endgroup$
    – Micha Wiedenmann
    Aug 2 at 11:29
















$begingroup$
Although not directly your question, you might find math.stackexchange.com/a/14315 useful. It defines well defined (that is, if $xH = x'H$ and $yH=y'H$ then $xyH = x'y'H$).
$endgroup$
– Micha Wiedenmann
Aug 2 at 11:29





$begingroup$
Although not directly your question, you might find math.stackexchange.com/a/14315 useful. It defines well defined (that is, if $xH = x'H$ and $yH=y'H$ then $xyH = x'y'H$).
$endgroup$
– Micha Wiedenmann
Aug 2 at 11:29











5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes


















31












$begingroup$

Your question is a common theme that arises whenever we define expressions that depend on non-unique representations of the same thing.



Imagine a similar scenario. Suppose $textUnits(x)$ is an operation that picks out the units digit in the decimal expansion of $x$. So for e.g. $textUnits(10.01)$ outputs $0$ and $textUnits(3.45)$ outputs $3$.



Now certainly $42 = 41.99bar9 cdots$ as real numbers. But
$$
textUnits(42) = 2 neq 1 = textUnits(41.99bar9 cdots)
$$
So substituting equal things into the same expression did not result in the same outcome!



Why did this happen? Because in essence $42 = 41.99bar9 cdots$ as real numbers but they are not equal as decimal expansions. That is, decimal expansions are not unique. The same number can have two different decimal expansions unless we are careful about disallowing a continued series of $9$'s at the end. And unfortunately the operation $textUnits(x)$ outputs values based on the non-unique representation of $x$ that we know as decimal expansions.



The exact same issue can happen with an expression like $(aH)(bH)$. Sure $aH$ may equal $cH$ and $bH$ may equal $dH$ as sets. But those sets $aH$ and $cH$ may have potentially different representatives $a$ and $c$. And if the operation $(aH)(bH)$ depends on non-unique representatives, which it does as the operation $(aH)(bH)$ picks out representatives $a, b$ of $aH,bH$ and outputs $(ab)H$, then merely substituting equal things may not result in equal things.



This is why proving the well-defined-ness of the definition $(aH)(bH) := (ab)H$ is necessary. You realize that our definition depends on non-unique representatives $a, b$; therefore you realize that mere substitution will not work. And that is why you get your hands dirty by literally verifying that the definition of $(aH)(bH)$ as $(ab)H$ outputs the same result even when you choose potentially different representatives $cH$ and $dH$ for $aH$ and $bH$ respectively.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$










  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Nice analogy, gets at the heart of the problem. +1 for you.
    $endgroup$
    – MPW
    Aug 2 at 0:02










  • $begingroup$
    Excellent explanation. I also like how it illuminates well-defined-ness in general. Very nice.
    $endgroup$
    – Jeremiah Dunivin
    Aug 2 at 0:44










  • $begingroup$
    @BenedictVoltaire Thank you. Glad to be of help.
    $endgroup$
    – 0XLR
    Aug 2 at 0:45


















8












$begingroup$

Interesting question.



This works if you have previously proved that $aHbH$, thought of as the set of all products of elements one from the each coset, is in fact a coset of $H$. (Once you know that it is clearly the coset of $ab$, since $ein H$.)



Without knowing that and thinking of $aHbH = abH$ as defining the product to be the coset of $ab$ you are just asserting what you want to prove.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    I think this is the best answer, as it highlights that $(aH)(bH) = abH$ can be either taken as a definition or as something we need to prove (a theorem or lemma). The two turn out to be equivalent (for normal subgroups) so it ends up not really mattering, but when people are still building their basic understanding it's good to be painfully explicit about what your assumptions are.
    $endgroup$
    – JonathanZ
    Aug 2 at 15:31



















5












$begingroup$

This is an example of "proof by notation", which is where one use symbols to denote concepts in such a way that a claim appears to simply fall out of how objects are represented. A more direct proof by notation for this claim would be "Given $aH$ and $bH$, let $abH$ be the coset generated by $ab$ and $H$. I just defined $abH$, so clearly $abH$ is well-defined". That's clearly fallacious. In your proof, the fallacy isn't as blatant, but it's the same basic principle. You write $aHbH=(cH)(dH)$ = $cHdH$, but what does that even mean? You're relying on implicitly understanding what "two things next to each other means": after years of mathematics classes, you've gotten used to $(a)(b)$ and $ab$ both representing the same thing, namely $a$ multiplied by $b$, but do $(aH)(bH)$ and $aHbH$ both represent "multiplication", and what does "multiplication" even mean? Remember, "$aH$" and $bH$" represent sets. What does it mean to multiply to sets by each other?



The notation $aH$ relies of a basic understanding of cosets and is shorthand for the more complicated notation $ah: hin H$. Once you have a solid understanding of cosets, you may be able to easily work with these shorthands, but this question is asking you to prove a basic property of cosets, so using a high-level shorthand is a bit inappropriate. The fallacy should be more clear if we dispense with this shorthand. Instead of writing $aH$, we have $ah: hin H$. Instead of $bH$, we have $bh: hin H$. And so on. Instead of $aHbH$, we have $ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H $. And instead of $aH=cH,bH=dH$, we have $exists h_3,h_4 in H:c=ah_3, d = bh_4$. Now the claim that $aHbH=cHdH$ expands to the claim that $ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H = (ah_3)h_1(bh_4)h_2: h_1,h_2 in H $. And that, in turn, is equivalent to $forall h_1,h_2 in H, exists h_1' ,h_2'in H:ah_1bh_2=(ah_3)h_1'(bh_3)h_2'$.



That is, when you say $aHbH=(cH)(dH)$, you're invoking the entire complicated statement of $forall h_1,h_2 in H, exists h_1' ,h_2'in H:ah_1bh_2=(ah_3)h_1'(bh_3)h_2'$, and just saying "Well, I've written this claim in a form that makes it look like it's obviously true, so I'm going to just take it as true".



The problem with simply substituting one expression in for another is that $aHbH$ is not defined directly in terms of $aH$ and $bH$. We have $aHbH :=ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H $, so $aHbH$ is defined in terms of $a$ and $b$. So just because $cH=aH$, that doesn't mean that substituting $cH$ in for $aH$ will give the same result: when you replace $a$ with $c$ in the formula $ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H $, you're not guaranteed to get the same answer.



Suppose we had an operation $*$ on fractions that said "the numerator of the result is the sum of the input numerators, and the denominator is the sum of the input denominators". Then $frac 1 2 = frac 2 4$, but $frac 1 2 * frac 1 3 neq frac 2 4 * frac 1 3$. This shows that $*$ is not well-defined on the rational numbers, because it looks at not the fraction as a whole, but the individual parts of its representation. Similarly, for non-normal subgroups, $aHbH$ is not well-defined, because it is defined not in terms of the cosets as a whole, but rather in terms of the individual parts of its representation ($a$ and $b$). Once you define an operation in terms of the representation of an object, then if the object has more than one presentation, you are no longer guaranteed to have a well-defined operation.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$






















    3












    $begingroup$

    The hypotheses $aH=cH$ and $bH=dH$ do not ensure in an obvious way that $ab H=cd H$, in other words that the equivalence relation on $G$ associated to the subgroup $H$ is compatible with the group operation. You have to prove it.



    However this isn't very hard: $abH=cdH$ means that $;(cd)^-1abin H$. Now
    $$(cd)^-1ab=d^-1underbracec^-1a_in H,bin d^-1Hb= d^-1b Hquadtextsince Htext is normal,$$
    and $d^-1bin H$, so $;d^-1b,Hsubseteq H.$






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$










    • 1




      $begingroup$
      I think the OP knows your proof (or an equivalent one) but wants to know why he can't just use the fact that $aH$ and $cH$ are the same set and substitute in the set product $aHbH$.
      $endgroup$
      – Ethan Bolker
      Aug 1 at 22:30






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      That's what I (hopefully) answer to in the prologue of the proof. Do you think it's not clear enough?
      $endgroup$
      – Bernard
      Aug 1 at 22:32










    • $begingroup$
      That prologue does indeed help. My answer addresses what I think confused the OP. In any case the OP has enough to go on now.
      $endgroup$
      – Ethan Bolker
      Aug 2 at 1:47


















    0












    $begingroup$

    It might help for you to calculate what can go wrong with this operation when $H$ is not a normal subgroup. Some good examples can be found by considering order-two subgroups of $S_3$.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$










    • 3




      $begingroup$
      Welcome to MSE. This should be a comment, not an answer.
      $endgroup$
      – José Carlos Santos
      Aug 2 at 13:37













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    5 Answers
    5






    active

    oldest

    votes








    5 Answers
    5






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    31












    $begingroup$

    Your question is a common theme that arises whenever we define expressions that depend on non-unique representations of the same thing.



    Imagine a similar scenario. Suppose $textUnits(x)$ is an operation that picks out the units digit in the decimal expansion of $x$. So for e.g. $textUnits(10.01)$ outputs $0$ and $textUnits(3.45)$ outputs $3$.



    Now certainly $42 = 41.99bar9 cdots$ as real numbers. But
    $$
    textUnits(42) = 2 neq 1 = textUnits(41.99bar9 cdots)
    $$
    So substituting equal things into the same expression did not result in the same outcome!



    Why did this happen? Because in essence $42 = 41.99bar9 cdots$ as real numbers but they are not equal as decimal expansions. That is, decimal expansions are not unique. The same number can have two different decimal expansions unless we are careful about disallowing a continued series of $9$'s at the end. And unfortunately the operation $textUnits(x)$ outputs values based on the non-unique representation of $x$ that we know as decimal expansions.



    The exact same issue can happen with an expression like $(aH)(bH)$. Sure $aH$ may equal $cH$ and $bH$ may equal $dH$ as sets. But those sets $aH$ and $cH$ may have potentially different representatives $a$ and $c$. And if the operation $(aH)(bH)$ depends on non-unique representatives, which it does as the operation $(aH)(bH)$ picks out representatives $a, b$ of $aH,bH$ and outputs $(ab)H$, then merely substituting equal things may not result in equal things.



    This is why proving the well-defined-ness of the definition $(aH)(bH) := (ab)H$ is necessary. You realize that our definition depends on non-unique representatives $a, b$; therefore you realize that mere substitution will not work. And that is why you get your hands dirty by literally verifying that the definition of $(aH)(bH)$ as $(ab)H$ outputs the same result even when you choose potentially different representatives $cH$ and $dH$ for $aH$ and $bH$ respectively.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$










    • 2




      $begingroup$
      Nice analogy, gets at the heart of the problem. +1 for you.
      $endgroup$
      – MPW
      Aug 2 at 0:02










    • $begingroup$
      Excellent explanation. I also like how it illuminates well-defined-ness in general. Very nice.
      $endgroup$
      – Jeremiah Dunivin
      Aug 2 at 0:44










    • $begingroup$
      @BenedictVoltaire Thank you. Glad to be of help.
      $endgroup$
      – 0XLR
      Aug 2 at 0:45















    31












    $begingroup$

    Your question is a common theme that arises whenever we define expressions that depend on non-unique representations of the same thing.



    Imagine a similar scenario. Suppose $textUnits(x)$ is an operation that picks out the units digit in the decimal expansion of $x$. So for e.g. $textUnits(10.01)$ outputs $0$ and $textUnits(3.45)$ outputs $3$.



    Now certainly $42 = 41.99bar9 cdots$ as real numbers. But
    $$
    textUnits(42) = 2 neq 1 = textUnits(41.99bar9 cdots)
    $$
    So substituting equal things into the same expression did not result in the same outcome!



    Why did this happen? Because in essence $42 = 41.99bar9 cdots$ as real numbers but they are not equal as decimal expansions. That is, decimal expansions are not unique. The same number can have two different decimal expansions unless we are careful about disallowing a continued series of $9$'s at the end. And unfortunately the operation $textUnits(x)$ outputs values based on the non-unique representation of $x$ that we know as decimal expansions.



    The exact same issue can happen with an expression like $(aH)(bH)$. Sure $aH$ may equal $cH$ and $bH$ may equal $dH$ as sets. But those sets $aH$ and $cH$ may have potentially different representatives $a$ and $c$. And if the operation $(aH)(bH)$ depends on non-unique representatives, which it does as the operation $(aH)(bH)$ picks out representatives $a, b$ of $aH,bH$ and outputs $(ab)H$, then merely substituting equal things may not result in equal things.



    This is why proving the well-defined-ness of the definition $(aH)(bH) := (ab)H$ is necessary. You realize that our definition depends on non-unique representatives $a, b$; therefore you realize that mere substitution will not work. And that is why you get your hands dirty by literally verifying that the definition of $(aH)(bH)$ as $(ab)H$ outputs the same result even when you choose potentially different representatives $cH$ and $dH$ for $aH$ and $bH$ respectively.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$










    • 2




      $begingroup$
      Nice analogy, gets at the heart of the problem. +1 for you.
      $endgroup$
      – MPW
      Aug 2 at 0:02










    • $begingroup$
      Excellent explanation. I also like how it illuminates well-defined-ness in general. Very nice.
      $endgroup$
      – Jeremiah Dunivin
      Aug 2 at 0:44










    • $begingroup$
      @BenedictVoltaire Thank you. Glad to be of help.
      $endgroup$
      – 0XLR
      Aug 2 at 0:45













    31












    31








    31





    $begingroup$

    Your question is a common theme that arises whenever we define expressions that depend on non-unique representations of the same thing.



    Imagine a similar scenario. Suppose $textUnits(x)$ is an operation that picks out the units digit in the decimal expansion of $x$. So for e.g. $textUnits(10.01)$ outputs $0$ and $textUnits(3.45)$ outputs $3$.



    Now certainly $42 = 41.99bar9 cdots$ as real numbers. But
    $$
    textUnits(42) = 2 neq 1 = textUnits(41.99bar9 cdots)
    $$
    So substituting equal things into the same expression did not result in the same outcome!



    Why did this happen? Because in essence $42 = 41.99bar9 cdots$ as real numbers but they are not equal as decimal expansions. That is, decimal expansions are not unique. The same number can have two different decimal expansions unless we are careful about disallowing a continued series of $9$'s at the end. And unfortunately the operation $textUnits(x)$ outputs values based on the non-unique representation of $x$ that we know as decimal expansions.



    The exact same issue can happen with an expression like $(aH)(bH)$. Sure $aH$ may equal $cH$ and $bH$ may equal $dH$ as sets. But those sets $aH$ and $cH$ may have potentially different representatives $a$ and $c$. And if the operation $(aH)(bH)$ depends on non-unique representatives, which it does as the operation $(aH)(bH)$ picks out representatives $a, b$ of $aH,bH$ and outputs $(ab)H$, then merely substituting equal things may not result in equal things.



    This is why proving the well-defined-ness of the definition $(aH)(bH) := (ab)H$ is necessary. You realize that our definition depends on non-unique representatives $a, b$; therefore you realize that mere substitution will not work. And that is why you get your hands dirty by literally verifying that the definition of $(aH)(bH)$ as $(ab)H$ outputs the same result even when you choose potentially different representatives $cH$ and $dH$ for $aH$ and $bH$ respectively.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    Your question is a common theme that arises whenever we define expressions that depend on non-unique representations of the same thing.



    Imagine a similar scenario. Suppose $textUnits(x)$ is an operation that picks out the units digit in the decimal expansion of $x$. So for e.g. $textUnits(10.01)$ outputs $0$ and $textUnits(3.45)$ outputs $3$.



    Now certainly $42 = 41.99bar9 cdots$ as real numbers. But
    $$
    textUnits(42) = 2 neq 1 = textUnits(41.99bar9 cdots)
    $$
    So substituting equal things into the same expression did not result in the same outcome!



    Why did this happen? Because in essence $42 = 41.99bar9 cdots$ as real numbers but they are not equal as decimal expansions. That is, decimal expansions are not unique. The same number can have two different decimal expansions unless we are careful about disallowing a continued series of $9$'s at the end. And unfortunately the operation $textUnits(x)$ outputs values based on the non-unique representation of $x$ that we know as decimal expansions.



    The exact same issue can happen with an expression like $(aH)(bH)$. Sure $aH$ may equal $cH$ and $bH$ may equal $dH$ as sets. But those sets $aH$ and $cH$ may have potentially different representatives $a$ and $c$. And if the operation $(aH)(bH)$ depends on non-unique representatives, which it does as the operation $(aH)(bH)$ picks out representatives $a, b$ of $aH,bH$ and outputs $(ab)H$, then merely substituting equal things may not result in equal things.



    This is why proving the well-defined-ness of the definition $(aH)(bH) := (ab)H$ is necessary. You realize that our definition depends on non-unique representatives $a, b$; therefore you realize that mere substitution will not work. And that is why you get your hands dirty by literally verifying that the definition of $(aH)(bH)$ as $(ab)H$ outputs the same result even when you choose potentially different representatives $cH$ and $dH$ for $aH$ and $bH$ respectively.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited Aug 2 at 20:36

























    answered Aug 1 at 23:10









    0XLR0XLR

    3,7251 gold badge12 silver badges30 bronze badges




    3,7251 gold badge12 silver badges30 bronze badges










    • 2




      $begingroup$
      Nice analogy, gets at the heart of the problem. +1 for you.
      $endgroup$
      – MPW
      Aug 2 at 0:02










    • $begingroup$
      Excellent explanation. I also like how it illuminates well-defined-ness in general. Very nice.
      $endgroup$
      – Jeremiah Dunivin
      Aug 2 at 0:44










    • $begingroup$
      @BenedictVoltaire Thank you. Glad to be of help.
      $endgroup$
      – 0XLR
      Aug 2 at 0:45












    • 2




      $begingroup$
      Nice analogy, gets at the heart of the problem. +1 for you.
      $endgroup$
      – MPW
      Aug 2 at 0:02










    • $begingroup$
      Excellent explanation. I also like how it illuminates well-defined-ness in general. Very nice.
      $endgroup$
      – Jeremiah Dunivin
      Aug 2 at 0:44










    • $begingroup$
      @BenedictVoltaire Thank you. Glad to be of help.
      $endgroup$
      – 0XLR
      Aug 2 at 0:45







    2




    2




    $begingroup$
    Nice analogy, gets at the heart of the problem. +1 for you.
    $endgroup$
    – MPW
    Aug 2 at 0:02




    $begingroup$
    Nice analogy, gets at the heart of the problem. +1 for you.
    $endgroup$
    – MPW
    Aug 2 at 0:02












    $begingroup$
    Excellent explanation. I also like how it illuminates well-defined-ness in general. Very nice.
    $endgroup$
    – Jeremiah Dunivin
    Aug 2 at 0:44




    $begingroup$
    Excellent explanation. I also like how it illuminates well-defined-ness in general. Very nice.
    $endgroup$
    – Jeremiah Dunivin
    Aug 2 at 0:44












    $begingroup$
    @BenedictVoltaire Thank you. Glad to be of help.
    $endgroup$
    – 0XLR
    Aug 2 at 0:45




    $begingroup$
    @BenedictVoltaire Thank you. Glad to be of help.
    $endgroup$
    – 0XLR
    Aug 2 at 0:45













    8












    $begingroup$

    Interesting question.



    This works if you have previously proved that $aHbH$, thought of as the set of all products of elements one from the each coset, is in fact a coset of $H$. (Once you know that it is clearly the coset of $ab$, since $ein H$.)



    Without knowing that and thinking of $aHbH = abH$ as defining the product to be the coset of $ab$ you are just asserting what you want to prove.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$














    • $begingroup$
      I think this is the best answer, as it highlights that $(aH)(bH) = abH$ can be either taken as a definition or as something we need to prove (a theorem or lemma). The two turn out to be equivalent (for normal subgroups) so it ends up not really mattering, but when people are still building their basic understanding it's good to be painfully explicit about what your assumptions are.
      $endgroup$
      – JonathanZ
      Aug 2 at 15:31
















    8












    $begingroup$

    Interesting question.



    This works if you have previously proved that $aHbH$, thought of as the set of all products of elements one from the each coset, is in fact a coset of $H$. (Once you know that it is clearly the coset of $ab$, since $ein H$.)



    Without knowing that and thinking of $aHbH = abH$ as defining the product to be the coset of $ab$ you are just asserting what you want to prove.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$














    • $begingroup$
      I think this is the best answer, as it highlights that $(aH)(bH) = abH$ can be either taken as a definition or as something we need to prove (a theorem or lemma). The two turn out to be equivalent (for normal subgroups) so it ends up not really mattering, but when people are still building their basic understanding it's good to be painfully explicit about what your assumptions are.
      $endgroup$
      – JonathanZ
      Aug 2 at 15:31














    8












    8








    8





    $begingroup$

    Interesting question.



    This works if you have previously proved that $aHbH$, thought of as the set of all products of elements one from the each coset, is in fact a coset of $H$. (Once you know that it is clearly the coset of $ab$, since $ein H$.)



    Without knowing that and thinking of $aHbH = abH$ as defining the product to be the coset of $ab$ you are just asserting what you want to prove.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    Interesting question.



    This works if you have previously proved that $aHbH$, thought of as the set of all products of elements one from the each coset, is in fact a coset of $H$. (Once you know that it is clearly the coset of $ab$, since $ein H$.)



    Without knowing that and thinking of $aHbH = abH$ as defining the product to be the coset of $ab$ you are just asserting what you want to prove.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited Aug 2 at 11:00









    Henning Makholm

    254k18 gold badges335 silver badges578 bronze badges




    254k18 gold badges335 silver badges578 bronze badges










    answered Aug 1 at 22:17









    Ethan BolkerEthan Bolker

    54.5k5 gold badges61 silver badges132 bronze badges




    54.5k5 gold badges61 silver badges132 bronze badges














    • $begingroup$
      I think this is the best answer, as it highlights that $(aH)(bH) = abH$ can be either taken as a definition or as something we need to prove (a theorem or lemma). The two turn out to be equivalent (for normal subgroups) so it ends up not really mattering, but when people are still building their basic understanding it's good to be painfully explicit about what your assumptions are.
      $endgroup$
      – JonathanZ
      Aug 2 at 15:31

















    • $begingroup$
      I think this is the best answer, as it highlights that $(aH)(bH) = abH$ can be either taken as a definition or as something we need to prove (a theorem or lemma). The two turn out to be equivalent (for normal subgroups) so it ends up not really mattering, but when people are still building their basic understanding it's good to be painfully explicit about what your assumptions are.
      $endgroup$
      – JonathanZ
      Aug 2 at 15:31
















    $begingroup$
    I think this is the best answer, as it highlights that $(aH)(bH) = abH$ can be either taken as a definition or as something we need to prove (a theorem or lemma). The two turn out to be equivalent (for normal subgroups) so it ends up not really mattering, but when people are still building their basic understanding it's good to be painfully explicit about what your assumptions are.
    $endgroup$
    – JonathanZ
    Aug 2 at 15:31





    $begingroup$
    I think this is the best answer, as it highlights that $(aH)(bH) = abH$ can be either taken as a definition or as something we need to prove (a theorem or lemma). The two turn out to be equivalent (for normal subgroups) so it ends up not really mattering, but when people are still building their basic understanding it's good to be painfully explicit about what your assumptions are.
    $endgroup$
    – JonathanZ
    Aug 2 at 15:31












    5












    $begingroup$

    This is an example of "proof by notation", which is where one use symbols to denote concepts in such a way that a claim appears to simply fall out of how objects are represented. A more direct proof by notation for this claim would be "Given $aH$ and $bH$, let $abH$ be the coset generated by $ab$ and $H$. I just defined $abH$, so clearly $abH$ is well-defined". That's clearly fallacious. In your proof, the fallacy isn't as blatant, but it's the same basic principle. You write $aHbH=(cH)(dH)$ = $cHdH$, but what does that even mean? You're relying on implicitly understanding what "two things next to each other means": after years of mathematics classes, you've gotten used to $(a)(b)$ and $ab$ both representing the same thing, namely $a$ multiplied by $b$, but do $(aH)(bH)$ and $aHbH$ both represent "multiplication", and what does "multiplication" even mean? Remember, "$aH$" and $bH$" represent sets. What does it mean to multiply to sets by each other?



    The notation $aH$ relies of a basic understanding of cosets and is shorthand for the more complicated notation $ah: hin H$. Once you have a solid understanding of cosets, you may be able to easily work with these shorthands, but this question is asking you to prove a basic property of cosets, so using a high-level shorthand is a bit inappropriate. The fallacy should be more clear if we dispense with this shorthand. Instead of writing $aH$, we have $ah: hin H$. Instead of $bH$, we have $bh: hin H$. And so on. Instead of $aHbH$, we have $ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H $. And instead of $aH=cH,bH=dH$, we have $exists h_3,h_4 in H:c=ah_3, d = bh_4$. Now the claim that $aHbH=cHdH$ expands to the claim that $ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H = (ah_3)h_1(bh_4)h_2: h_1,h_2 in H $. And that, in turn, is equivalent to $forall h_1,h_2 in H, exists h_1' ,h_2'in H:ah_1bh_2=(ah_3)h_1'(bh_3)h_2'$.



    That is, when you say $aHbH=(cH)(dH)$, you're invoking the entire complicated statement of $forall h_1,h_2 in H, exists h_1' ,h_2'in H:ah_1bh_2=(ah_3)h_1'(bh_3)h_2'$, and just saying "Well, I've written this claim in a form that makes it look like it's obviously true, so I'm going to just take it as true".



    The problem with simply substituting one expression in for another is that $aHbH$ is not defined directly in terms of $aH$ and $bH$. We have $aHbH :=ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H $, so $aHbH$ is defined in terms of $a$ and $b$. So just because $cH=aH$, that doesn't mean that substituting $cH$ in for $aH$ will give the same result: when you replace $a$ with $c$ in the formula $ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H $, you're not guaranteed to get the same answer.



    Suppose we had an operation $*$ on fractions that said "the numerator of the result is the sum of the input numerators, and the denominator is the sum of the input denominators". Then $frac 1 2 = frac 2 4$, but $frac 1 2 * frac 1 3 neq frac 2 4 * frac 1 3$. This shows that $*$ is not well-defined on the rational numbers, because it looks at not the fraction as a whole, but the individual parts of its representation. Similarly, for non-normal subgroups, $aHbH$ is not well-defined, because it is defined not in terms of the cosets as a whole, but rather in terms of the individual parts of its representation ($a$ and $b$). Once you define an operation in terms of the representation of an object, then if the object has more than one presentation, you are no longer guaranteed to have a well-defined operation.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



















      5












      $begingroup$

      This is an example of "proof by notation", which is where one use symbols to denote concepts in such a way that a claim appears to simply fall out of how objects are represented. A more direct proof by notation for this claim would be "Given $aH$ and $bH$, let $abH$ be the coset generated by $ab$ and $H$. I just defined $abH$, so clearly $abH$ is well-defined". That's clearly fallacious. In your proof, the fallacy isn't as blatant, but it's the same basic principle. You write $aHbH=(cH)(dH)$ = $cHdH$, but what does that even mean? You're relying on implicitly understanding what "two things next to each other means": after years of mathematics classes, you've gotten used to $(a)(b)$ and $ab$ both representing the same thing, namely $a$ multiplied by $b$, but do $(aH)(bH)$ and $aHbH$ both represent "multiplication", and what does "multiplication" even mean? Remember, "$aH$" and $bH$" represent sets. What does it mean to multiply to sets by each other?



      The notation $aH$ relies of a basic understanding of cosets and is shorthand for the more complicated notation $ah: hin H$. Once you have a solid understanding of cosets, you may be able to easily work with these shorthands, but this question is asking you to prove a basic property of cosets, so using a high-level shorthand is a bit inappropriate. The fallacy should be more clear if we dispense with this shorthand. Instead of writing $aH$, we have $ah: hin H$. Instead of $bH$, we have $bh: hin H$. And so on. Instead of $aHbH$, we have $ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H $. And instead of $aH=cH,bH=dH$, we have $exists h_3,h_4 in H:c=ah_3, d = bh_4$. Now the claim that $aHbH=cHdH$ expands to the claim that $ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H = (ah_3)h_1(bh_4)h_2: h_1,h_2 in H $. And that, in turn, is equivalent to $forall h_1,h_2 in H, exists h_1' ,h_2'in H:ah_1bh_2=(ah_3)h_1'(bh_3)h_2'$.



      That is, when you say $aHbH=(cH)(dH)$, you're invoking the entire complicated statement of $forall h_1,h_2 in H, exists h_1' ,h_2'in H:ah_1bh_2=(ah_3)h_1'(bh_3)h_2'$, and just saying "Well, I've written this claim in a form that makes it look like it's obviously true, so I'm going to just take it as true".



      The problem with simply substituting one expression in for another is that $aHbH$ is not defined directly in terms of $aH$ and $bH$. We have $aHbH :=ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H $, so $aHbH$ is defined in terms of $a$ and $b$. So just because $cH=aH$, that doesn't mean that substituting $cH$ in for $aH$ will give the same result: when you replace $a$ with $c$ in the formula $ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H $, you're not guaranteed to get the same answer.



      Suppose we had an operation $*$ on fractions that said "the numerator of the result is the sum of the input numerators, and the denominator is the sum of the input denominators". Then $frac 1 2 = frac 2 4$, but $frac 1 2 * frac 1 3 neq frac 2 4 * frac 1 3$. This shows that $*$ is not well-defined on the rational numbers, because it looks at not the fraction as a whole, but the individual parts of its representation. Similarly, for non-normal subgroups, $aHbH$ is not well-defined, because it is defined not in terms of the cosets as a whole, but rather in terms of the individual parts of its representation ($a$ and $b$). Once you define an operation in terms of the representation of an object, then if the object has more than one presentation, you are no longer guaranteed to have a well-defined operation.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$

















        5












        5








        5





        $begingroup$

        This is an example of "proof by notation", which is where one use symbols to denote concepts in such a way that a claim appears to simply fall out of how objects are represented. A more direct proof by notation for this claim would be "Given $aH$ and $bH$, let $abH$ be the coset generated by $ab$ and $H$. I just defined $abH$, so clearly $abH$ is well-defined". That's clearly fallacious. In your proof, the fallacy isn't as blatant, but it's the same basic principle. You write $aHbH=(cH)(dH)$ = $cHdH$, but what does that even mean? You're relying on implicitly understanding what "two things next to each other means": after years of mathematics classes, you've gotten used to $(a)(b)$ and $ab$ both representing the same thing, namely $a$ multiplied by $b$, but do $(aH)(bH)$ and $aHbH$ both represent "multiplication", and what does "multiplication" even mean? Remember, "$aH$" and $bH$" represent sets. What does it mean to multiply to sets by each other?



        The notation $aH$ relies of a basic understanding of cosets and is shorthand for the more complicated notation $ah: hin H$. Once you have a solid understanding of cosets, you may be able to easily work with these shorthands, but this question is asking you to prove a basic property of cosets, so using a high-level shorthand is a bit inappropriate. The fallacy should be more clear if we dispense with this shorthand. Instead of writing $aH$, we have $ah: hin H$. Instead of $bH$, we have $bh: hin H$. And so on. Instead of $aHbH$, we have $ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H $. And instead of $aH=cH,bH=dH$, we have $exists h_3,h_4 in H:c=ah_3, d = bh_4$. Now the claim that $aHbH=cHdH$ expands to the claim that $ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H = (ah_3)h_1(bh_4)h_2: h_1,h_2 in H $. And that, in turn, is equivalent to $forall h_1,h_2 in H, exists h_1' ,h_2'in H:ah_1bh_2=(ah_3)h_1'(bh_3)h_2'$.



        That is, when you say $aHbH=(cH)(dH)$, you're invoking the entire complicated statement of $forall h_1,h_2 in H, exists h_1' ,h_2'in H:ah_1bh_2=(ah_3)h_1'(bh_3)h_2'$, and just saying "Well, I've written this claim in a form that makes it look like it's obviously true, so I'm going to just take it as true".



        The problem with simply substituting one expression in for another is that $aHbH$ is not defined directly in terms of $aH$ and $bH$. We have $aHbH :=ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H $, so $aHbH$ is defined in terms of $a$ and $b$. So just because $cH=aH$, that doesn't mean that substituting $cH$ in for $aH$ will give the same result: when you replace $a$ with $c$ in the formula $ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H $, you're not guaranteed to get the same answer.



        Suppose we had an operation $*$ on fractions that said "the numerator of the result is the sum of the input numerators, and the denominator is the sum of the input denominators". Then $frac 1 2 = frac 2 4$, but $frac 1 2 * frac 1 3 neq frac 2 4 * frac 1 3$. This shows that $*$ is not well-defined on the rational numbers, because it looks at not the fraction as a whole, but the individual parts of its representation. Similarly, for non-normal subgroups, $aHbH$ is not well-defined, because it is defined not in terms of the cosets as a whole, but rather in terms of the individual parts of its representation ($a$ and $b$). Once you define an operation in terms of the representation of an object, then if the object has more than one presentation, you are no longer guaranteed to have a well-defined operation.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        This is an example of "proof by notation", which is where one use symbols to denote concepts in such a way that a claim appears to simply fall out of how objects are represented. A more direct proof by notation for this claim would be "Given $aH$ and $bH$, let $abH$ be the coset generated by $ab$ and $H$. I just defined $abH$, so clearly $abH$ is well-defined". That's clearly fallacious. In your proof, the fallacy isn't as blatant, but it's the same basic principle. You write $aHbH=(cH)(dH)$ = $cHdH$, but what does that even mean? You're relying on implicitly understanding what "two things next to each other means": after years of mathematics classes, you've gotten used to $(a)(b)$ and $ab$ both representing the same thing, namely $a$ multiplied by $b$, but do $(aH)(bH)$ and $aHbH$ both represent "multiplication", and what does "multiplication" even mean? Remember, "$aH$" and $bH$" represent sets. What does it mean to multiply to sets by each other?



        The notation $aH$ relies of a basic understanding of cosets and is shorthand for the more complicated notation $ah: hin H$. Once you have a solid understanding of cosets, you may be able to easily work with these shorthands, but this question is asking you to prove a basic property of cosets, so using a high-level shorthand is a bit inappropriate. The fallacy should be more clear if we dispense with this shorthand. Instead of writing $aH$, we have $ah: hin H$. Instead of $bH$, we have $bh: hin H$. And so on. Instead of $aHbH$, we have $ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H $. And instead of $aH=cH,bH=dH$, we have $exists h_3,h_4 in H:c=ah_3, d = bh_4$. Now the claim that $aHbH=cHdH$ expands to the claim that $ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H = (ah_3)h_1(bh_4)h_2: h_1,h_2 in H $. And that, in turn, is equivalent to $forall h_1,h_2 in H, exists h_1' ,h_2'in H:ah_1bh_2=(ah_3)h_1'(bh_3)h_2'$.



        That is, when you say $aHbH=(cH)(dH)$, you're invoking the entire complicated statement of $forall h_1,h_2 in H, exists h_1' ,h_2'in H:ah_1bh_2=(ah_3)h_1'(bh_3)h_2'$, and just saying "Well, I've written this claim in a form that makes it look like it's obviously true, so I'm going to just take it as true".



        The problem with simply substituting one expression in for another is that $aHbH$ is not defined directly in terms of $aH$ and $bH$. We have $aHbH :=ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H $, so $aHbH$ is defined in terms of $a$ and $b$. So just because $cH=aH$, that doesn't mean that substituting $cH$ in for $aH$ will give the same result: when you replace $a$ with $c$ in the formula $ah_1bh_2: h_1,h_2 in H $, you're not guaranteed to get the same answer.



        Suppose we had an operation $*$ on fractions that said "the numerator of the result is the sum of the input numerators, and the denominator is the sum of the input denominators". Then $frac 1 2 = frac 2 4$, but $frac 1 2 * frac 1 3 neq frac 2 4 * frac 1 3$. This shows that $*$ is not well-defined on the rational numbers, because it looks at not the fraction as a whole, but the individual parts of its representation. Similarly, for non-normal subgroups, $aHbH$ is not well-defined, because it is defined not in terms of the cosets as a whole, but rather in terms of the individual parts of its representation ($a$ and $b$). Once you define an operation in terms of the representation of an object, then if the object has more than one presentation, you are no longer guaranteed to have a well-defined operation.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Aug 2 at 16:06









        AcccumulationAcccumulation

        7,9042 gold badges7 silver badges20 bronze badges




        7,9042 gold badges7 silver badges20 bronze badges
























            3












            $begingroup$

            The hypotheses $aH=cH$ and $bH=dH$ do not ensure in an obvious way that $ab H=cd H$, in other words that the equivalence relation on $G$ associated to the subgroup $H$ is compatible with the group operation. You have to prove it.



            However this isn't very hard: $abH=cdH$ means that $;(cd)^-1abin H$. Now
            $$(cd)^-1ab=d^-1underbracec^-1a_in H,bin d^-1Hb= d^-1b Hquadtextsince Htext is normal,$$
            and $d^-1bin H$, so $;d^-1b,Hsubseteq H.$






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$










            • 1




              $begingroup$
              I think the OP knows your proof (or an equivalent one) but wants to know why he can't just use the fact that $aH$ and $cH$ are the same set and substitute in the set product $aHbH$.
              $endgroup$
              – Ethan Bolker
              Aug 1 at 22:30






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              That's what I (hopefully) answer to in the prologue of the proof. Do you think it's not clear enough?
              $endgroup$
              – Bernard
              Aug 1 at 22:32










            • $begingroup$
              That prologue does indeed help. My answer addresses what I think confused the OP. In any case the OP has enough to go on now.
              $endgroup$
              – Ethan Bolker
              Aug 2 at 1:47















            3












            $begingroup$

            The hypotheses $aH=cH$ and $bH=dH$ do not ensure in an obvious way that $ab H=cd H$, in other words that the equivalence relation on $G$ associated to the subgroup $H$ is compatible with the group operation. You have to prove it.



            However this isn't very hard: $abH=cdH$ means that $;(cd)^-1abin H$. Now
            $$(cd)^-1ab=d^-1underbracec^-1a_in H,bin d^-1Hb= d^-1b Hquadtextsince Htext is normal,$$
            and $d^-1bin H$, so $;d^-1b,Hsubseteq H.$






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$










            • 1




              $begingroup$
              I think the OP knows your proof (or an equivalent one) but wants to know why he can't just use the fact that $aH$ and $cH$ are the same set and substitute in the set product $aHbH$.
              $endgroup$
              – Ethan Bolker
              Aug 1 at 22:30






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              That's what I (hopefully) answer to in the prologue of the proof. Do you think it's not clear enough?
              $endgroup$
              – Bernard
              Aug 1 at 22:32










            • $begingroup$
              That prologue does indeed help. My answer addresses what I think confused the OP. In any case the OP has enough to go on now.
              $endgroup$
              – Ethan Bolker
              Aug 2 at 1:47













            3












            3








            3





            $begingroup$

            The hypotheses $aH=cH$ and $bH=dH$ do not ensure in an obvious way that $ab H=cd H$, in other words that the equivalence relation on $G$ associated to the subgroup $H$ is compatible with the group operation. You have to prove it.



            However this isn't very hard: $abH=cdH$ means that $;(cd)^-1abin H$. Now
            $$(cd)^-1ab=d^-1underbracec^-1a_in H,bin d^-1Hb= d^-1b Hquadtextsince Htext is normal,$$
            and $d^-1bin H$, so $;d^-1b,Hsubseteq H.$






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            The hypotheses $aH=cH$ and $bH=dH$ do not ensure in an obvious way that $ab H=cd H$, in other words that the equivalence relation on $G$ associated to the subgroup $H$ is compatible with the group operation. You have to prove it.



            However this isn't very hard: $abH=cdH$ means that $;(cd)^-1abin H$. Now
            $$(cd)^-1ab=d^-1underbracec^-1a_in H,bin d^-1Hb= d^-1b Hquadtextsince Htext is normal,$$
            and $d^-1bin H$, so $;d^-1b,Hsubseteq H.$







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered Aug 1 at 22:25









            BernardBernard

            131k7 gold badges43 silver badges123 bronze badges




            131k7 gold badges43 silver badges123 bronze badges










            • 1




              $begingroup$
              I think the OP knows your proof (or an equivalent one) but wants to know why he can't just use the fact that $aH$ and $cH$ are the same set and substitute in the set product $aHbH$.
              $endgroup$
              – Ethan Bolker
              Aug 1 at 22:30






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              That's what I (hopefully) answer to in the prologue of the proof. Do you think it's not clear enough?
              $endgroup$
              – Bernard
              Aug 1 at 22:32










            • $begingroup$
              That prologue does indeed help. My answer addresses what I think confused the OP. In any case the OP has enough to go on now.
              $endgroup$
              – Ethan Bolker
              Aug 2 at 1:47












            • 1




              $begingroup$
              I think the OP knows your proof (or an equivalent one) but wants to know why he can't just use the fact that $aH$ and $cH$ are the same set and substitute in the set product $aHbH$.
              $endgroup$
              – Ethan Bolker
              Aug 1 at 22:30






            • 1




              $begingroup$
              That's what I (hopefully) answer to in the prologue of the proof. Do you think it's not clear enough?
              $endgroup$
              – Bernard
              Aug 1 at 22:32










            • $begingroup$
              That prologue does indeed help. My answer addresses what I think confused the OP. In any case the OP has enough to go on now.
              $endgroup$
              – Ethan Bolker
              Aug 2 at 1:47







            1




            1




            $begingroup$
            I think the OP knows your proof (or an equivalent one) but wants to know why he can't just use the fact that $aH$ and $cH$ are the same set and substitute in the set product $aHbH$.
            $endgroup$
            – Ethan Bolker
            Aug 1 at 22:30




            $begingroup$
            I think the OP knows your proof (or an equivalent one) but wants to know why he can't just use the fact that $aH$ and $cH$ are the same set and substitute in the set product $aHbH$.
            $endgroup$
            – Ethan Bolker
            Aug 1 at 22:30




            1




            1




            $begingroup$
            That's what I (hopefully) answer to in the prologue of the proof. Do you think it's not clear enough?
            $endgroup$
            – Bernard
            Aug 1 at 22:32




            $begingroup$
            That's what I (hopefully) answer to in the prologue of the proof. Do you think it's not clear enough?
            $endgroup$
            – Bernard
            Aug 1 at 22:32












            $begingroup$
            That prologue does indeed help. My answer addresses what I think confused the OP. In any case the OP has enough to go on now.
            $endgroup$
            – Ethan Bolker
            Aug 2 at 1:47




            $begingroup$
            That prologue does indeed help. My answer addresses what I think confused the OP. In any case the OP has enough to go on now.
            $endgroup$
            – Ethan Bolker
            Aug 2 at 1:47











            0












            $begingroup$

            It might help for you to calculate what can go wrong with this operation when $H$ is not a normal subgroup. Some good examples can be found by considering order-two subgroups of $S_3$.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$










            • 3




              $begingroup$
              Welcome to MSE. This should be a comment, not an answer.
              $endgroup$
              – José Carlos Santos
              Aug 2 at 13:37















            0












            $begingroup$

            It might help for you to calculate what can go wrong with this operation when $H$ is not a normal subgroup. Some good examples can be found by considering order-two subgroups of $S_3$.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$










            • 3




              $begingroup$
              Welcome to MSE. This should be a comment, not an answer.
              $endgroup$
              – José Carlos Santos
              Aug 2 at 13:37













            0












            0








            0





            $begingroup$

            It might help for you to calculate what can go wrong with this operation when $H$ is not a normal subgroup. Some good examples can be found by considering order-two subgroups of $S_3$.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            It might help for you to calculate what can go wrong with this operation when $H$ is not a normal subgroup. Some good examples can be found by considering order-two subgroups of $S_3$.







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered Aug 2 at 13:31









            PMarPMar

            1




            1










            • 3




              $begingroup$
              Welcome to MSE. This should be a comment, not an answer.
              $endgroup$
              – José Carlos Santos
              Aug 2 at 13:37












            • 3




              $begingroup$
              Welcome to MSE. This should be a comment, not an answer.
              $endgroup$
              – José Carlos Santos
              Aug 2 at 13:37







            3




            3




            $begingroup$
            Welcome to MSE. This should be a comment, not an answer.
            $endgroup$
            – José Carlos Santos
            Aug 2 at 13:37




            $begingroup$
            Welcome to MSE. This should be a comment, not an answer.
            $endgroup$
            – José Carlos Santos
            Aug 2 at 13:37

















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