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A female thief is not sold to make restitution — so what happens instead?
The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InPesach/Passover
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)
Best answer contest: Second quarter of 5779
To celebrate Mi Yodeya's tenth birthday, let's divide and conquer the entire…What if the thief gets injured by what he has stolen?what happens to the Sotah?Does every woman have a destined match?How early in the process can the accused sotah refuse to drink?
The mishna in Sotah 3:8 says, in a list of differences in halacha between men and women:
A man is sold for his theft [i.e., to repay it], a woman is not sold for her theft. (Sefaria translation)
The clarification that the sale is for repayment comes from the g'mara, which doesn't elaborate further. A thief is required to compensate the victim; a man who cannot do so is sold but a woman can't be sold -- so how is the victim of a female thief compensated?
Does the obligation to pay damages fall on her husband (if married) or father (if not)? That would only work if she isn't a widow, divorced, or an orphan. How does the victim of a poor female thief get compensated -- or doesn't he?
gezel-stealing torts-damages tractate-sotah
asked 2 days ago
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38k582266
add a comment |
The mishna in Sotah 3:8 says, in a list of differences in halacha between men and women:
A man is sold for his theft [i.e., to repay it], a woman is not sold for her theft. (Sefaria translation)
The clarification that the sale is for repayment comes from the g'mara, which doesn't elaborate further. A thief is required to compensate the victim; a man who cannot do so is sold but a woman can't be sold -- so how is the victim of a female thief compensated?
Does the obligation to pay damages fall on her husband (if married) or father (if not)? That would only work if she isn't a widow, divorced, or an orphan. How does the victim of a poor female thief get compensated -- or doesn't he?
gezel-stealing torts-damages tractate-sotah
asked 2 days ago
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38k582266
1
FWIW, Tosfos to the Gemara (Sotah 23b) infer, based on the fact that there’s another related exposition in Kiddushin 14b, that we don’t sell the woman’s father (where she’s younger than 12.5).
– DonielF
2 days ago
1. "Does the obligation" - there's no obligation to be sold, also no obligation to buy one - it is too cumbersome (see my questions) and isn't worth it over a regular worker, it's the last option and it requires a lot of conditions. 2. If neither the husband nor the father ever pay for damages or other debts by a woman, what makes you think that stealing is so different?
– Al Berko
yesterday
No. There is no alternative.
– kouty
yesterday
@AlBerko I meant the obligation to pay damages. Being sold is (for men) a way to achieve that, but not the obligation I'm talking about. And I don't know that husbands/fathers never pay for debts incurred by a woman; if that's the case it sounds like the basis of an answer.
– Monica Cellio♦
yesterday
add a comment |
The mishna in Sotah 3:8 says, in a list of differences in halacha between men and women:
A man is sold for his theft [i.e., to repay it], a woman is not sold for her theft. (Sefaria translation)
The clarification that the sale is for repayment comes from the g'mara, which doesn't elaborate further. A thief is required to compensate the victim; a man who cannot do so is sold but a woman can't be sold -- so how is the victim of a female thief compensated?
Does the obligation to pay damages fall on her husband (if married) or father (if not)? That would only work if she isn't a widow, divorced, or an orphan. How does the victim of a poor female thief get compensated -- or doesn't he?
gezel-stealing torts-damages tractate-sotah
asked 2 days ago
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38k582266
The mishna in Sotah 3:8 says, in a list of differences in halacha between men and women:
A man is sold for his theft [i.e., to repay it], a woman is not sold for her theft. (Sefaria translation)
The clarification that the sale is for repayment comes from the g'mara, which doesn't elaborate further. A thief is required to compensate the victim; a man who cannot do so is sold but a woman can't be sold -- so how is the victim of a female thief compensated?
Does the obligation to pay damages fall on her husband (if married) or father (if not)? That would only work if she isn't a widow, divorced, or an orphan. How does the victim of a poor female thief get compensated -- or doesn't he?
gezel-stealing torts-damages tractate-sotah
gezel-stealing torts-damages tractate-sotah
asked 2 days ago
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38k582266
asked 2 days ago
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38k582266
edited yesterday
Monica Cellio
asked 2 days ago
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38k582266
asked 2 days ago
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38k582266
asked 2 days ago
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38k582266
38k582266
1
FWIW, Tosfos to the Gemara (Sotah 23b) infer, based on the fact that there’s another related exposition in Kiddushin 14b, that we don’t sell the woman’s father (where she’s younger than 12.5).
– DonielF
2 days ago
1. "Does the obligation" - there's no obligation to be sold, also no obligation to buy one - it is too cumbersome (see my questions) and isn't worth it over a regular worker, it's the last option and it requires a lot of conditions. 2. If neither the husband nor the father ever pay for damages or other debts by a woman, what makes you think that stealing is so different?
– Al Berko
yesterday
No. There is no alternative.
– kouty
yesterday
@AlBerko I meant the obligation to pay damages. Being sold is (for men) a way to achieve that, but not the obligation I'm talking about. And I don't know that husbands/fathers never pay for debts incurred by a woman; if that's the case it sounds like the basis of an answer.
– Monica Cellio♦
yesterday
add a comment |
1
FWIW, Tosfos to the Gemara (Sotah 23b) infer, based on the fact that there’s another related exposition in Kiddushin 14b, that we don’t sell the woman’s father (where she’s younger than 12.5).
– DonielF
2 days ago
1. "Does the obligation" - there's no obligation to be sold, also no obligation to buy one - it is too cumbersome (see my questions) and isn't worth it over a regular worker, it's the last option and it requires a lot of conditions. 2. If neither the husband nor the father ever pay for damages or other debts by a woman, what makes you think that stealing is so different?
– Al Berko
yesterday
No. There is no alternative.
– kouty
yesterday
@AlBerko I meant the obligation to pay damages. Being sold is (for men) a way to achieve that, but not the obligation I'm talking about. And I don't know that husbands/fathers never pay for debts incurred by a woman; if that's the case it sounds like the basis of an answer.
– Monica Cellio♦
yesterday
1
1
FWIW, Tosfos to the Gemara (Sotah 23b) infer, based on the fact that there’s another related exposition in Kiddushin 14b, that we don’t sell the woman’s father (where she’s younger than 12.5).
– DonielF
2 days ago
FWIW, Tosfos to the Gemara (Sotah 23b) infer, based on the fact that there’s another related exposition in Kiddushin 14b, that we don’t sell the woman’s father (where she’s younger than 12.5).
– DonielF
2 days ago
1. "Does the obligation" - there's no obligation to be sold, also no obligation to buy one - it is too cumbersome (see my questions) and isn't worth it over a regular worker, it's the last option and it requires a lot of conditions. 2. If neither the husband nor the father ever pay for damages or other debts by a woman, what makes you think that stealing is so different?
– Al Berko
yesterday
1. "Does the obligation" - there's no obligation to be sold, also no obligation to buy one - it is too cumbersome (see my questions) and isn't worth it over a regular worker, it's the last option and it requires a lot of conditions. 2. If neither the husband nor the father ever pay for damages or other debts by a woman, what makes you think that stealing is so different?
– Al Berko
yesterday
No. There is no alternative.
– kouty
yesterday
No. There is no alternative.
– kouty
yesterday
@AlBerko I meant the obligation to pay damages. Being sold is (for men) a way to achieve that, but not the obligation I'm talking about. And I don't know that husbands/fathers never pay for debts incurred by a woman; if that's the case it sounds like the basis of an answer.
– Monica Cellio♦
yesterday
@AlBerko I meant the obligation to pay damages. Being sold is (for men) a way to achieve that, but not the obligation I'm talking about. And I don't know that husbands/fathers never pay for debts incurred by a woman; if that's the case it sounds like the basis of an answer.
– Monica Cellio♦
yesterday
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
It would seem from the Rambam (Hil. Geneivah 3:12) that she bears the debt until she can afford to pay it off:
הָאִישׁ נִמְכָּר בִּגְנֵבָתוֹ אֲבָל לֹא הָאִשָּׁה. וְדָבָר זֶה מִפִּי הַקַּבָּלָה. וְאֵין הַגַּנָּב נִמְכָּר אֶלָּא בְּקֶרֶן אֲבָל בְּכֶפֶל אוֹ בְּתַשְׁלוּמֵי אַרְבָּעָה וַחֲמִשָּׁה אֵינוֹ נִמְכָּר אֶלָּא הֲרֵי זֶה עָלָיו חוֹב עַד שֶׁיַּעֲשִׁיר:
A man is sold for his theft, but not a woman; this matter is [known] by tradition. A thief is only sold for the principal; for the double or four- and five-times payment he is not sold, but rather the debt is upon him until he gains wealth.
Similarly, it would seem, a woman bears the debt until she can pay it off.
Keep in mind that the Rambam is of the opinion that a minor is exempt from theft, even on the principal (if he no longer has it), and even after he grows up (Hil. Geneivah 1:8). So if she is under 12(.5?) she doesn’t have a debt to pay back at all (see your Rabbi before trying this at home - some argue on the Rambam).
answered 2 days ago
DonielFDonielF
17.2k12690
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
It would seem from the Rambam (Hil. Geneivah 3:12) that she bears the debt until she can afford to pay it off:
הָאִישׁ נִמְכָּר בִּגְנֵבָתוֹ אֲבָל לֹא הָאִשָּׁה. וְדָבָר זֶה מִפִּי הַקַּבָּלָה. וְאֵין הַגַּנָּב נִמְכָּר אֶלָּא בְּקֶרֶן אֲבָל בְּכֶפֶל אוֹ בְּתַשְׁלוּמֵי אַרְבָּעָה וַחֲמִשָּׁה אֵינוֹ נִמְכָּר אֶלָּא הֲרֵי זֶה עָלָיו חוֹב עַד שֶׁיַּעֲשִׁיר:
A man is sold for his theft, but not a woman; this matter is [known] by tradition. A thief is only sold for the principal; for the double or four- and five-times payment he is not sold, but rather the debt is upon him until he gains wealth.
Similarly, it would seem, a woman bears the debt until she can pay it off.
Keep in mind that the Rambam is of the opinion that a minor is exempt from theft, even on the principal (if he no longer has it), and even after he grows up (Hil. Geneivah 1:8). So if she is under 12(.5?) she doesn’t have a debt to pay back at all (see your Rabbi before trying this at home - some argue on the Rambam).
answered 2 days ago
DonielFDonielF
17.2k12690
add a comment |
It would seem from the Rambam (Hil. Geneivah 3:12) that she bears the debt until she can afford to pay it off:
הָאִישׁ נִמְכָּר בִּגְנֵבָתוֹ אֲבָל לֹא הָאִשָּׁה. וְדָבָר זֶה מִפִּי הַקַּבָּלָה. וְאֵין הַגַּנָּב נִמְכָּר אֶלָּא בְּקֶרֶן אֲבָל בְּכֶפֶל אוֹ בְּתַשְׁלוּמֵי אַרְבָּעָה וַחֲמִשָּׁה אֵינוֹ נִמְכָּר אֶלָּא הֲרֵי זֶה עָלָיו חוֹב עַד שֶׁיַּעֲשִׁיר:
A man is sold for his theft, but not a woman; this matter is [known] by tradition. A thief is only sold for the principal; for the double or four- and five-times payment he is not sold, but rather the debt is upon him until he gains wealth.
Similarly, it would seem, a woman bears the debt until she can pay it off.
Keep in mind that the Rambam is of the opinion that a minor is exempt from theft, even on the principal (if he no longer has it), and even after he grows up (Hil. Geneivah 1:8). So if she is under 12(.5?) she doesn’t have a debt to pay back at all (see your Rabbi before trying this at home - some argue on the Rambam).
answered 2 days ago
DonielFDonielF
17.2k12690
add a comment |
It would seem from the Rambam (Hil. Geneivah 3:12) that she bears the debt until she can afford to pay it off:
הָאִישׁ נִמְכָּר בִּגְנֵבָתוֹ אֲבָל לֹא הָאִשָּׁה. וְדָבָר זֶה מִפִּי הַקַּבָּלָה. וְאֵין הַגַּנָּב נִמְכָּר אֶלָּא בְּקֶרֶן אֲבָל בְּכֶפֶל אוֹ בְּתַשְׁלוּמֵי אַרְבָּעָה וַחֲמִשָּׁה אֵינוֹ נִמְכָּר אֶלָּא הֲרֵי זֶה עָלָיו חוֹב עַד שֶׁיַּעֲשִׁיר:
A man is sold for his theft, but not a woman; this matter is [known] by tradition. A thief is only sold for the principal; for the double or four- and five-times payment he is not sold, but rather the debt is upon him until he gains wealth.
Similarly, it would seem, a woman bears the debt until she can pay it off.
Keep in mind that the Rambam is of the opinion that a minor is exempt from theft, even on the principal (if he no longer has it), and even after he grows up (Hil. Geneivah 1:8). So if she is under 12(.5?) she doesn’t have a debt to pay back at all (see your Rabbi before trying this at home - some argue on the Rambam).
answered 2 days ago
DonielFDonielF
17.2k12690
It would seem from the Rambam (Hil. Geneivah 3:12) that she bears the debt until she can afford to pay it off:
הָאִישׁ נִמְכָּר בִּגְנֵבָתוֹ אֲבָל לֹא הָאִשָּׁה. וְדָבָר זֶה מִפִּי הַקַּבָּלָה. וְאֵין הַגַּנָּב נִמְכָּר אֶלָּא בְּקֶרֶן אֲבָל בְּכֶפֶל אוֹ בְּתַשְׁלוּמֵי אַרְבָּעָה וַחֲמִשָּׁה אֵינוֹ נִמְכָּר אֶלָּא הֲרֵי זֶה עָלָיו חוֹב עַד שֶׁיַּעֲשִׁיר:
A man is sold for his theft, but not a woman; this matter is [known] by tradition. A thief is only sold for the principal; for the double or four- and five-times payment he is not sold, but rather the debt is upon him until he gains wealth.
Similarly, it would seem, a woman bears the debt until she can pay it off.
Keep in mind that the Rambam is of the opinion that a minor is exempt from theft, even on the principal (if he no longer has it), and even after he grows up (Hil. Geneivah 1:8). So if she is under 12(.5?) she doesn’t have a debt to pay back at all (see your Rabbi before trying this at home - some argue on the Rambam).
answered 2 days ago
DonielFDonielF
17.2k12690
edited yesterday
answered 2 days ago
DonielFDonielF
17.2k12690
answered 2 days ago
DonielFDonielF
17.2k12690
answered 2 days ago
DonielFDonielF
17.2k12690
17.2k12690
add a comment |
add a comment |
1
FWIW, Tosfos to the Gemara (Sotah 23b) infer, based on the fact that there’s another related exposition in Kiddushin 14b, that we don’t sell the woman’s father (where she’s younger than 12.5).
– DonielF
2 days ago
1. "Does the obligation" - there's no obligation to be sold, also no obligation to buy one - it is too cumbersome (see my questions) and isn't worth it over a regular worker, it's the last option and it requires a lot of conditions. 2. If neither the husband nor the father ever pay for damages or other debts by a woman, what makes you think that stealing is so different?
– Al Berko
yesterday
No. There is no alternative.
– kouty
yesterday
@AlBerko I meant the obligation to pay damages. Being sold is (for men) a way to achieve that, but not the obligation I'm talking about. And I don't know that husbands/fathers never pay for debts incurred by a woman; if that's the case it sounds like the basis of an answer.
– Monica Cellio♦
yesterday