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What causes a person to remain in this world as a ghost?
What does a tahara accomplish for a dead person?Can people in heaven see our world?What is the importance of the human body after death?When a tzaddik dies, does he leave his positive traits in this world?dying person reciting shemaHow was the world created through the even shesiya?What is the function of this Drasha?Spiritual Causes For The Black Death?Could not find this in soncino Bamidbar rabbahWhat happens the second you die?
A baraita on Berakhot 18b relates a story where a pious man sleeps in a cemetery and hears two spirits talking. One of them suggests they wander the world, and the other says she can't because she was buried in a reed mat (rather than a shroud). So these are spirits of people who once lived. This happens three years in a row, so it's not that the spirits are (for some reason) held there for the first year after death.
From what I understand of our tradition, it is not normal for spirits of the dead to hang around on earth. Why is it, then, that some do (according to this baraita, anyway)? Do spirits remain if there is some sort of unfinished business? If so, what qualifies?
One might think that the one is kept here because of an improper burial, but the other spirit doesn't seem to have trouble roaming, and so I infer was buried properly.
midrash death tractate-brachot soul literalism
edited May 19 at 4:48
Loewian
12.3k11544
asked May 19 at 2:55
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38.6k583271
add a comment |
A baraita on Berakhot 18b relates a story where a pious man sleeps in a cemetery and hears two spirits talking. One of them suggests they wander the world, and the other says she can't because she was buried in a reed mat (rather than a shroud). So these are spirits of people who once lived. This happens three years in a row, so it's not that the spirits are (for some reason) held there for the first year after death.
From what I understand of our tradition, it is not normal for spirits of the dead to hang around on earth. Why is it, then, that some do (according to this baraita, anyway)? Do spirits remain if there is some sort of unfinished business? If so, what qualifies?
One might think that the one is kept here because of an improper burial, but the other spirit doesn't seem to have trouble roaming, and so I infer was buried properly.
midrash death tractate-brachot soul literalism
edited May 19 at 4:48
Loewian
12.3k11544
asked May 19 at 2:55
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38.6k583271
1
FWIW this Braisa is originally found in Avos d’Rebbi Nassan ch. 3. Might help track down some different commentaries on the Braisa.
– DonielF
May 19 at 3:24
add a comment |
A baraita on Berakhot 18b relates a story where a pious man sleeps in a cemetery and hears two spirits talking. One of them suggests they wander the world, and the other says she can't because she was buried in a reed mat (rather than a shroud). So these are spirits of people who once lived. This happens three years in a row, so it's not that the spirits are (for some reason) held there for the first year after death.
From what I understand of our tradition, it is not normal for spirits of the dead to hang around on earth. Why is it, then, that some do (according to this baraita, anyway)? Do spirits remain if there is some sort of unfinished business? If so, what qualifies?
One might think that the one is kept here because of an improper burial, but the other spirit doesn't seem to have trouble roaming, and so I infer was buried properly.
midrash death tractate-brachot soul literalism
edited May 19 at 4:48
Loewian
12.3k11544
asked May 19 at 2:55
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38.6k583271
A baraita on Berakhot 18b relates a story where a pious man sleeps in a cemetery and hears two spirits talking. One of them suggests they wander the world, and the other says she can't because she was buried in a reed mat (rather than a shroud). So these are spirits of people who once lived. This happens three years in a row, so it's not that the spirits are (for some reason) held there for the first year after death.
From what I understand of our tradition, it is not normal for spirits of the dead to hang around on earth. Why is it, then, that some do (according to this baraita, anyway)? Do spirits remain if there is some sort of unfinished business? If so, what qualifies?
One might think that the one is kept here because of an improper burial, but the other spirit doesn't seem to have trouble roaming, and so I infer was buried properly.
midrash death tractate-brachot soul literalism
midrash death tractate-brachot soul literalism
edited May 19 at 4:48
Loewian
12.3k11544
asked May 19 at 2:55
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38.6k583271
edited May 19 at 4:48
Loewian
12.3k11544
asked May 19 at 2:55
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38.6k583271
edited May 19 at 4:48
Loewian
12.3k11544
edited May 19 at 4:48
Loewian
12.3k11544
edited May 19 at 4:48
Loewian
12.3k11544
12.3k11544
asked May 19 at 2:55
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38.6k583271
asked May 19 at 2:55
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38.6k583271
asked May 19 at 2:55
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38.6k583271
38.6k583271
1
FWIW this Braisa is originally found in Avos d’Rebbi Nassan ch. 3. Might help track down some different commentaries on the Braisa.
– DonielF
May 19 at 3:24
add a comment |
1
FWIW this Braisa is originally found in Avos d’Rebbi Nassan ch. 3. Might help track down some different commentaries on the Braisa.
– DonielF
May 19 at 3:24
1
1
FWIW this Braisa is originally found in Avos d’Rebbi Nassan ch. 3. Might help track down some different commentaries on the Braisa.
– DonielF
May 19 at 3:24
FWIW this Braisa is originally found in Avos d’Rebbi Nassan ch. 3. Might help track down some different commentaries on the Braisa.
– DonielF
May 19 at 3:24
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
R. Ezekiel Landau discusses this aspect of the tale in his commentary there. He explains that the spirit cannot leave the body until the body decomposes, and that is why we conduct burials in a manner that will quicken the process, by burying directly in the ground and using linen shrouds. A mat of reeds slows the rotting process and therefore the body of the girl buried in the mat of reeds had not yet decomposed, and this prevented her spirit from leaving.
Tzelach Berachot 18b
הגם שכל דברי רז"ל באגדות יש בהן ענין נסתר וברמז ובחידה דיברו מכל מקום גם פשטן של הדברים צריך שלא יהיו דברים זרים ויוצאים מהיקש הטבע ולכאורה תשובה זו שקבורה במחצלת של קנים ומתוך כך אינה יכולה לשוט בעולם הוא דבר זר מאוד וכי הגוף עולה מקברו הרי הגוף מוטל כאבן דומם בקברו אבל הרוח הוא העולה רוח הצדיק עולה למעלה בגבהי מרומים ורוח הרשעים נתונה בכף הקלע אבל הגוף בין של הצדיקים ובין של הרשעים נשאר בקבר אך גוף של הצדיק מושכב במנוחה עד יגיע עת קץ אז יעמוד לגורלו לקץ הימין וגוף של הרשע בשרו עליו יכאב וקשה רמה למת כמחט והנפש נידונית בכף הקלע ומה ענין המחצלת להרוח שאינו דבר גשמי שיתעטף במחצלת של קנים ועוד ששוב לשנה אחרת חזרה ואמרה לה בואי ונשוט והלא השיבה לה אשתקד שאינה יכולה וכאשר השיבה לה באמת לא כך אמרתי לך וכו' ונראה על פי שאמרו במס' שבת דף קנ"ב ע"ב כל מה שאומרים בפני המת וכו' וחד אמר עד שיתעכל הבשר דכתיב אך בשרו עליו יכאב ונפשו עליו תאבל הרי שכל זמן שבשר הגוף קיים אין הנפש יכולה להפרד ממנו עד שיכלה בשר הגוף לגמרי ואז עולה הרוח למעלה ולכך המצוה לקבור בקרקע כמבואר בסנהדרין דף מ"ו כדי שירקב הגוף מהרה ולכך התכריכין הם של פשתן הכלים ונרקבים מהרה שלא יעכבו רקיבת הגוף וזו שנקברה במחצלת של קנים שהיתה אמה עניה ולא היה סיפוק בידה להלבישה תכריכין של בגדי פשתן וקברה אותה בעיטוף מחצלת של קנים וזהו אינו מתרקב כל כך בנקל נשאר גם הגוף קיים בבשרו ולא היתה יכולה להפרד ולעלות למעלה ואמנם בשנה השניה היתה השניה סבורה שכבר במשך שנה שעברה נרקב המחצלת עם הבשר ותהא יכולה לעלות לכן אמרה לה בואי ונשוט וזהו השיבה לה שעדיין לא נרקבה המחצלת ולכן גם הבשר לא נרקב ואינה יכולה לעלות
answered May 19 at 3:29
AlexAlex
25.7k163141
Thank you (and +1), but what about the one who was ready to wander, so (by implication) wasn't buried in a reed mat? It chose to stay around as a spirit even though it could have left?
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 4:36
@MonicaCellio That's why she was able to leave.
– Alex
May 19 at 4:41
Was able to, but didn't. Does that mean that ghosts stay with their bodies until they decide to leave (and can)? There's no automatic "advancement", so to speak?
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 4:47
1
@Alex sorry I was unclear. I have some possibly-incorrect understandings: that soul = spirit, that the soul is supposed to ascend from this world (after up to a year, during which we say kaddish), and that this process is automatic. Here, though, we have a spirit that stayed in the world -- or, at least, was present in the cemetery -- for more than two years. I'm wondering why that one was still here at all when it sounds like she was able to leave.
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 16:52
2
@MonicaCellio I wasn’t challenging your understanding of souls/spirits etc. I was just saying that the Talmudic passage doesn’t say that the other girl had remained behind as well; it’s possible she moved on right when her body decomposed and was simply inviting her friend for a night out.
– Alex
May 19 at 22:08
|
show 2 more comments
@Alex had a very good answer. Just thought I should add that Maharasha explains that the lowest part of the soul (Nefesh) remains with the body after death and the most elevated part of the soul (Neshama) separates from the body after death and ascends to higher realms. His commentary (see the footnote in ArtScroll) says that the Germara here speaks of a Rooakh, which is part of the soul that is intermediate between the Nefesh and Neshama and which sometimes remains with the dead body and sometimes roams free and ascends to higher realms where the Neshama is.
Interestingly, Maharasha expressed disbelief that R' Yehuda bar Il'ai would spend the night of Rosh Hashanah in a cemetery and thus proposed that this entire story reflects what occurred in dreams.
answered May 20 at 15:08
MattMatt
2207
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
R. Ezekiel Landau discusses this aspect of the tale in his commentary there. He explains that the spirit cannot leave the body until the body decomposes, and that is why we conduct burials in a manner that will quicken the process, by burying directly in the ground and using linen shrouds. A mat of reeds slows the rotting process and therefore the body of the girl buried in the mat of reeds had not yet decomposed, and this prevented her spirit from leaving.
Tzelach Berachot 18b
הגם שכל דברי רז"ל באגדות יש בהן ענין נסתר וברמז ובחידה דיברו מכל מקום גם פשטן של הדברים צריך שלא יהיו דברים זרים ויוצאים מהיקש הטבע ולכאורה תשובה זו שקבורה במחצלת של קנים ומתוך כך אינה יכולה לשוט בעולם הוא דבר זר מאוד וכי הגוף עולה מקברו הרי הגוף מוטל כאבן דומם בקברו אבל הרוח הוא העולה רוח הצדיק עולה למעלה בגבהי מרומים ורוח הרשעים נתונה בכף הקלע אבל הגוף בין של הצדיקים ובין של הרשעים נשאר בקבר אך גוף של הצדיק מושכב במנוחה עד יגיע עת קץ אז יעמוד לגורלו לקץ הימין וגוף של הרשע בשרו עליו יכאב וקשה רמה למת כמחט והנפש נידונית בכף הקלע ומה ענין המחצלת להרוח שאינו דבר גשמי שיתעטף במחצלת של קנים ועוד ששוב לשנה אחרת חזרה ואמרה לה בואי ונשוט והלא השיבה לה אשתקד שאינה יכולה וכאשר השיבה לה באמת לא כך אמרתי לך וכו' ונראה על פי שאמרו במס' שבת דף קנ"ב ע"ב כל מה שאומרים בפני המת וכו' וחד אמר עד שיתעכל הבשר דכתיב אך בשרו עליו יכאב ונפשו עליו תאבל הרי שכל זמן שבשר הגוף קיים אין הנפש יכולה להפרד ממנו עד שיכלה בשר הגוף לגמרי ואז עולה הרוח למעלה ולכך המצוה לקבור בקרקע כמבואר בסנהדרין דף מ"ו כדי שירקב הגוף מהרה ולכך התכריכין הם של פשתן הכלים ונרקבים מהרה שלא יעכבו רקיבת הגוף וזו שנקברה במחצלת של קנים שהיתה אמה עניה ולא היה סיפוק בידה להלבישה תכריכין של בגדי פשתן וקברה אותה בעיטוף מחצלת של קנים וזהו אינו מתרקב כל כך בנקל נשאר גם הגוף קיים בבשרו ולא היתה יכולה להפרד ולעלות למעלה ואמנם בשנה השניה היתה השניה סבורה שכבר במשך שנה שעברה נרקב המחצלת עם הבשר ותהא יכולה לעלות לכן אמרה לה בואי ונשוט וזהו השיבה לה שעדיין לא נרקבה המחצלת ולכן גם הבשר לא נרקב ואינה יכולה לעלות
answered May 19 at 3:29
AlexAlex
25.7k163141
Thank you (and +1), but what about the one who was ready to wander, so (by implication) wasn't buried in a reed mat? It chose to stay around as a spirit even though it could have left?
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 4:36
@MonicaCellio That's why she was able to leave.
– Alex
May 19 at 4:41
Was able to, but didn't. Does that mean that ghosts stay with their bodies until they decide to leave (and can)? There's no automatic "advancement", so to speak?
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 4:47
1
@Alex sorry I was unclear. I have some possibly-incorrect understandings: that soul = spirit, that the soul is supposed to ascend from this world (after up to a year, during which we say kaddish), and that this process is automatic. Here, though, we have a spirit that stayed in the world -- or, at least, was present in the cemetery -- for more than two years. I'm wondering why that one was still here at all when it sounds like she was able to leave.
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 16:52
2
@MonicaCellio I wasn’t challenging your understanding of souls/spirits etc. I was just saying that the Talmudic passage doesn’t say that the other girl had remained behind as well; it’s possible she moved on right when her body decomposed and was simply inviting her friend for a night out.
– Alex
May 19 at 22:08
|
show 2 more comments
R. Ezekiel Landau discusses this aspect of the tale in his commentary there. He explains that the spirit cannot leave the body until the body decomposes, and that is why we conduct burials in a manner that will quicken the process, by burying directly in the ground and using linen shrouds. A mat of reeds slows the rotting process and therefore the body of the girl buried in the mat of reeds had not yet decomposed, and this prevented her spirit from leaving.
Tzelach Berachot 18b
הגם שכל דברי רז"ל באגדות יש בהן ענין נסתר וברמז ובחידה דיברו מכל מקום גם פשטן של הדברים צריך שלא יהיו דברים זרים ויוצאים מהיקש הטבע ולכאורה תשובה זו שקבורה במחצלת של קנים ומתוך כך אינה יכולה לשוט בעולם הוא דבר זר מאוד וכי הגוף עולה מקברו הרי הגוף מוטל כאבן דומם בקברו אבל הרוח הוא העולה רוח הצדיק עולה למעלה בגבהי מרומים ורוח הרשעים נתונה בכף הקלע אבל הגוף בין של הצדיקים ובין של הרשעים נשאר בקבר אך גוף של הצדיק מושכב במנוחה עד יגיע עת קץ אז יעמוד לגורלו לקץ הימין וגוף של הרשע בשרו עליו יכאב וקשה רמה למת כמחט והנפש נידונית בכף הקלע ומה ענין המחצלת להרוח שאינו דבר גשמי שיתעטף במחצלת של קנים ועוד ששוב לשנה אחרת חזרה ואמרה לה בואי ונשוט והלא השיבה לה אשתקד שאינה יכולה וכאשר השיבה לה באמת לא כך אמרתי לך וכו' ונראה על פי שאמרו במס' שבת דף קנ"ב ע"ב כל מה שאומרים בפני המת וכו' וחד אמר עד שיתעכל הבשר דכתיב אך בשרו עליו יכאב ונפשו עליו תאבל הרי שכל זמן שבשר הגוף קיים אין הנפש יכולה להפרד ממנו עד שיכלה בשר הגוף לגמרי ואז עולה הרוח למעלה ולכך המצוה לקבור בקרקע כמבואר בסנהדרין דף מ"ו כדי שירקב הגוף מהרה ולכך התכריכין הם של פשתן הכלים ונרקבים מהרה שלא יעכבו רקיבת הגוף וזו שנקברה במחצלת של קנים שהיתה אמה עניה ולא היה סיפוק בידה להלבישה תכריכין של בגדי פשתן וקברה אותה בעיטוף מחצלת של קנים וזהו אינו מתרקב כל כך בנקל נשאר גם הגוף קיים בבשרו ולא היתה יכולה להפרד ולעלות למעלה ואמנם בשנה השניה היתה השניה סבורה שכבר במשך שנה שעברה נרקב המחצלת עם הבשר ותהא יכולה לעלות לכן אמרה לה בואי ונשוט וזהו השיבה לה שעדיין לא נרקבה המחצלת ולכן גם הבשר לא נרקב ואינה יכולה לעלות
answered May 19 at 3:29
AlexAlex
25.7k163141
Thank you (and +1), but what about the one who was ready to wander, so (by implication) wasn't buried in a reed mat? It chose to stay around as a spirit even though it could have left?
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 4:36
@MonicaCellio That's why she was able to leave.
– Alex
May 19 at 4:41
Was able to, but didn't. Does that mean that ghosts stay with their bodies until they decide to leave (and can)? There's no automatic "advancement", so to speak?
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 4:47
1
@Alex sorry I was unclear. I have some possibly-incorrect understandings: that soul = spirit, that the soul is supposed to ascend from this world (after up to a year, during which we say kaddish), and that this process is automatic. Here, though, we have a spirit that stayed in the world -- or, at least, was present in the cemetery -- for more than two years. I'm wondering why that one was still here at all when it sounds like she was able to leave.
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 16:52
2
@MonicaCellio I wasn’t challenging your understanding of souls/spirits etc. I was just saying that the Talmudic passage doesn’t say that the other girl had remained behind as well; it’s possible she moved on right when her body decomposed and was simply inviting her friend for a night out.
– Alex
May 19 at 22:08
|
show 2 more comments
R. Ezekiel Landau discusses this aspect of the tale in his commentary there. He explains that the spirit cannot leave the body until the body decomposes, and that is why we conduct burials in a manner that will quicken the process, by burying directly in the ground and using linen shrouds. A mat of reeds slows the rotting process and therefore the body of the girl buried in the mat of reeds had not yet decomposed, and this prevented her spirit from leaving.
Tzelach Berachot 18b
הגם שכל דברי רז"ל באגדות יש בהן ענין נסתר וברמז ובחידה דיברו מכל מקום גם פשטן של הדברים צריך שלא יהיו דברים זרים ויוצאים מהיקש הטבע ולכאורה תשובה זו שקבורה במחצלת של קנים ומתוך כך אינה יכולה לשוט בעולם הוא דבר זר מאוד וכי הגוף עולה מקברו הרי הגוף מוטל כאבן דומם בקברו אבל הרוח הוא העולה רוח הצדיק עולה למעלה בגבהי מרומים ורוח הרשעים נתונה בכף הקלע אבל הגוף בין של הצדיקים ובין של הרשעים נשאר בקבר אך גוף של הצדיק מושכב במנוחה עד יגיע עת קץ אז יעמוד לגורלו לקץ הימין וגוף של הרשע בשרו עליו יכאב וקשה רמה למת כמחט והנפש נידונית בכף הקלע ומה ענין המחצלת להרוח שאינו דבר גשמי שיתעטף במחצלת של קנים ועוד ששוב לשנה אחרת חזרה ואמרה לה בואי ונשוט והלא השיבה לה אשתקד שאינה יכולה וכאשר השיבה לה באמת לא כך אמרתי לך וכו' ונראה על פי שאמרו במס' שבת דף קנ"ב ע"ב כל מה שאומרים בפני המת וכו' וחד אמר עד שיתעכל הבשר דכתיב אך בשרו עליו יכאב ונפשו עליו תאבל הרי שכל זמן שבשר הגוף קיים אין הנפש יכולה להפרד ממנו עד שיכלה בשר הגוף לגמרי ואז עולה הרוח למעלה ולכך המצוה לקבור בקרקע כמבואר בסנהדרין דף מ"ו כדי שירקב הגוף מהרה ולכך התכריכין הם של פשתן הכלים ונרקבים מהרה שלא יעכבו רקיבת הגוף וזו שנקברה במחצלת של קנים שהיתה אמה עניה ולא היה סיפוק בידה להלבישה תכריכין של בגדי פשתן וקברה אותה בעיטוף מחצלת של קנים וזהו אינו מתרקב כל כך בנקל נשאר גם הגוף קיים בבשרו ולא היתה יכולה להפרד ולעלות למעלה ואמנם בשנה השניה היתה השניה סבורה שכבר במשך שנה שעברה נרקב המחצלת עם הבשר ותהא יכולה לעלות לכן אמרה לה בואי ונשוט וזהו השיבה לה שעדיין לא נרקבה המחצלת ולכן גם הבשר לא נרקב ואינה יכולה לעלות
answered May 19 at 3:29
AlexAlex
25.7k163141
R. Ezekiel Landau discusses this aspect of the tale in his commentary there. He explains that the spirit cannot leave the body until the body decomposes, and that is why we conduct burials in a manner that will quicken the process, by burying directly in the ground and using linen shrouds. A mat of reeds slows the rotting process and therefore the body of the girl buried in the mat of reeds had not yet decomposed, and this prevented her spirit from leaving.
Tzelach Berachot 18b
הגם שכל דברי רז"ל באגדות יש בהן ענין נסתר וברמז ובחידה דיברו מכל מקום גם פשטן של הדברים צריך שלא יהיו דברים זרים ויוצאים מהיקש הטבע ולכאורה תשובה זו שקבורה במחצלת של קנים ומתוך כך אינה יכולה לשוט בעולם הוא דבר זר מאוד וכי הגוף עולה מקברו הרי הגוף מוטל כאבן דומם בקברו אבל הרוח הוא העולה רוח הצדיק עולה למעלה בגבהי מרומים ורוח הרשעים נתונה בכף הקלע אבל הגוף בין של הצדיקים ובין של הרשעים נשאר בקבר אך גוף של הצדיק מושכב במנוחה עד יגיע עת קץ אז יעמוד לגורלו לקץ הימין וגוף של הרשע בשרו עליו יכאב וקשה רמה למת כמחט והנפש נידונית בכף הקלע ומה ענין המחצלת להרוח שאינו דבר גשמי שיתעטף במחצלת של קנים ועוד ששוב לשנה אחרת חזרה ואמרה לה בואי ונשוט והלא השיבה לה אשתקד שאינה יכולה וכאשר השיבה לה באמת לא כך אמרתי לך וכו' ונראה על פי שאמרו במס' שבת דף קנ"ב ע"ב כל מה שאומרים בפני המת וכו' וחד אמר עד שיתעכל הבשר דכתיב אך בשרו עליו יכאב ונפשו עליו תאבל הרי שכל זמן שבשר הגוף קיים אין הנפש יכולה להפרד ממנו עד שיכלה בשר הגוף לגמרי ואז עולה הרוח למעלה ולכך המצוה לקבור בקרקע כמבואר בסנהדרין דף מ"ו כדי שירקב הגוף מהרה ולכך התכריכין הם של פשתן הכלים ונרקבים מהרה שלא יעכבו רקיבת הגוף וזו שנקברה במחצלת של קנים שהיתה אמה עניה ולא היה סיפוק בידה להלבישה תכריכין של בגדי פשתן וקברה אותה בעיטוף מחצלת של קנים וזהו אינו מתרקב כל כך בנקל נשאר גם הגוף קיים בבשרו ולא היתה יכולה להפרד ולעלות למעלה ואמנם בשנה השניה היתה השניה סבורה שכבר במשך שנה שעברה נרקב המחצלת עם הבשר ותהא יכולה לעלות לכן אמרה לה בואי ונשוט וזהו השיבה לה שעדיין לא נרקבה המחצלת ולכן גם הבשר לא נרקב ואינה יכולה לעלות
answered May 19 at 3:29
AlexAlex
25.7k163141
answered May 19 at 3:29
AlexAlex
25.7k163141
answered May 19 at 3:29
AlexAlex
25.7k163141
answered May 19 at 3:29
AlexAlex
25.7k163141
25.7k163141
Thank you (and +1), but what about the one who was ready to wander, so (by implication) wasn't buried in a reed mat? It chose to stay around as a spirit even though it could have left?
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 4:36
@MonicaCellio That's why she was able to leave.
– Alex
May 19 at 4:41
Was able to, but didn't. Does that mean that ghosts stay with their bodies until they decide to leave (and can)? There's no automatic "advancement", so to speak?
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 4:47
1
@Alex sorry I was unclear. I have some possibly-incorrect understandings: that soul = spirit, that the soul is supposed to ascend from this world (after up to a year, during which we say kaddish), and that this process is automatic. Here, though, we have a spirit that stayed in the world -- or, at least, was present in the cemetery -- for more than two years. I'm wondering why that one was still here at all when it sounds like she was able to leave.
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 16:52
2
@MonicaCellio I wasn’t challenging your understanding of souls/spirits etc. I was just saying that the Talmudic passage doesn’t say that the other girl had remained behind as well; it’s possible she moved on right when her body decomposed and was simply inviting her friend for a night out.
– Alex
May 19 at 22:08
|
show 2 more comments
Thank you (and +1), but what about the one who was ready to wander, so (by implication) wasn't buried in a reed mat? It chose to stay around as a spirit even though it could have left?
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 4:36
@MonicaCellio That's why she was able to leave.
– Alex
May 19 at 4:41
Was able to, but didn't. Does that mean that ghosts stay with their bodies until they decide to leave (and can)? There's no automatic "advancement", so to speak?
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 4:47
1
@Alex sorry I was unclear. I have some possibly-incorrect understandings: that soul = spirit, that the soul is supposed to ascend from this world (after up to a year, during which we say kaddish), and that this process is automatic. Here, though, we have a spirit that stayed in the world -- or, at least, was present in the cemetery -- for more than two years. I'm wondering why that one was still here at all when it sounds like she was able to leave.
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 16:52
2
@MonicaCellio I wasn’t challenging your understanding of souls/spirits etc. I was just saying that the Talmudic passage doesn’t say that the other girl had remained behind as well; it’s possible she moved on right when her body decomposed and was simply inviting her friend for a night out.
– Alex
May 19 at 22:08
Thank you (and +1), but what about the one who was ready to wander, so (by implication) wasn't buried in a reed mat? It chose to stay around as a spirit even though it could have left?
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 4:36
Thank you (and +1), but what about the one who was ready to wander, so (by implication) wasn't buried in a reed mat? It chose to stay around as a spirit even though it could have left?
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 4:36
@MonicaCellio That's why she was able to leave.
– Alex
May 19 at 4:41
@MonicaCellio That's why she was able to leave.
– Alex
May 19 at 4:41
Was able to, but didn't. Does that mean that ghosts stay with their bodies until they decide to leave (and can)? There's no automatic "advancement", so to speak?
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 4:47
Was able to, but didn't. Does that mean that ghosts stay with their bodies until they decide to leave (and can)? There's no automatic "advancement", so to speak?
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 4:47
1
1
@Alex sorry I was unclear. I have some possibly-incorrect understandings: that soul = spirit, that the soul is supposed to ascend from this world (after up to a year, during which we say kaddish), and that this process is automatic. Here, though, we have a spirit that stayed in the world -- or, at least, was present in the cemetery -- for more than two years. I'm wondering why that one was still here at all when it sounds like she was able to leave.
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 16:52
@Alex sorry I was unclear. I have some possibly-incorrect understandings: that soul = spirit, that the soul is supposed to ascend from this world (after up to a year, during which we say kaddish), and that this process is automatic. Here, though, we have a spirit that stayed in the world -- or, at least, was present in the cemetery -- for more than two years. I'm wondering why that one was still here at all when it sounds like she was able to leave.
– Monica Cellio♦
May 19 at 16:52
2
2
@MonicaCellio I wasn’t challenging your understanding of souls/spirits etc. I was just saying that the Talmudic passage doesn’t say that the other girl had remained behind as well; it’s possible she moved on right when her body decomposed and was simply inviting her friend for a night out.
– Alex
May 19 at 22:08
@MonicaCellio I wasn’t challenging your understanding of souls/spirits etc. I was just saying that the Talmudic passage doesn’t say that the other girl had remained behind as well; it’s possible she moved on right when her body decomposed and was simply inviting her friend for a night out.
– Alex
May 19 at 22:08
|
show 2 more comments
@Alex had a very good answer. Just thought I should add that Maharasha explains that the lowest part of the soul (Nefesh) remains with the body after death and the most elevated part of the soul (Neshama) separates from the body after death and ascends to higher realms. His commentary (see the footnote in ArtScroll) says that the Germara here speaks of a Rooakh, which is part of the soul that is intermediate between the Nefesh and Neshama and which sometimes remains with the dead body and sometimes roams free and ascends to higher realms where the Neshama is.
Interestingly, Maharasha expressed disbelief that R' Yehuda bar Il'ai would spend the night of Rosh Hashanah in a cemetery and thus proposed that this entire story reflects what occurred in dreams.
answered May 20 at 15:08
MattMatt
2207
add a comment |
@Alex had a very good answer. Just thought I should add that Maharasha explains that the lowest part of the soul (Nefesh) remains with the body after death and the most elevated part of the soul (Neshama) separates from the body after death and ascends to higher realms. His commentary (see the footnote in ArtScroll) says that the Germara here speaks of a Rooakh, which is part of the soul that is intermediate between the Nefesh and Neshama and which sometimes remains with the dead body and sometimes roams free and ascends to higher realms where the Neshama is.
Interestingly, Maharasha expressed disbelief that R' Yehuda bar Il'ai would spend the night of Rosh Hashanah in a cemetery and thus proposed that this entire story reflects what occurred in dreams.
answered May 20 at 15:08
MattMatt
2207
add a comment |
@Alex had a very good answer. Just thought I should add that Maharasha explains that the lowest part of the soul (Nefesh) remains with the body after death and the most elevated part of the soul (Neshama) separates from the body after death and ascends to higher realms. His commentary (see the footnote in ArtScroll) says that the Germara here speaks of a Rooakh, which is part of the soul that is intermediate between the Nefesh and Neshama and which sometimes remains with the dead body and sometimes roams free and ascends to higher realms where the Neshama is.
Interestingly, Maharasha expressed disbelief that R' Yehuda bar Il'ai would spend the night of Rosh Hashanah in a cemetery and thus proposed that this entire story reflects what occurred in dreams.
answered May 20 at 15:08
MattMatt
2207
@Alex had a very good answer. Just thought I should add that Maharasha explains that the lowest part of the soul (Nefesh) remains with the body after death and the most elevated part of the soul (Neshama) separates from the body after death and ascends to higher realms. His commentary (see the footnote in ArtScroll) says that the Germara here speaks of a Rooakh, which is part of the soul that is intermediate between the Nefesh and Neshama and which sometimes remains with the dead body and sometimes roams free and ascends to higher realms where the Neshama is.
Interestingly, Maharasha expressed disbelief that R' Yehuda bar Il'ai would spend the night of Rosh Hashanah in a cemetery and thus proposed that this entire story reflects what occurred in dreams.
answered May 20 at 15:08
MattMatt
2207
answered May 20 at 15:08
MattMatt
2207
answered May 20 at 15:08
MattMatt
2207
answered May 20 at 15:08
MattMatt
2207
2207
add a comment |
add a comment |
1
FWIW this Braisa is originally found in Avos d’Rebbi Nassan ch. 3. Might help track down some different commentaries on the Braisa.
– DonielF
May 19 at 3:24