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Concept of clitic


Is the Polish preposition w a clitic?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








1















I am trying to understand the concept of clitics.



In the paper, "Feature Analysis of Danish Pronominal Paradigms with a View to a Danish Application of the Pronominal Approach", it is stated "In Danish, only one pronoun (man) is clitic by nature, whereas most pronouns are clitic under specific syntactic conditions". In the article, "clitic" is also regarded as "verb-bound" (for the French pronominal system).



I note that the examples on the English Wikipedia show 's, I'm and je t'aime. man on the other hand is a separate word which can move far from a verb, e.g., in Europarl I see the example "... og at man i 1999 kun har budgetteret ..." where "har" is the verb



Are there separate concepts at play here?










share|improve this question




























    1















    I am trying to understand the concept of clitics.



    In the paper, "Feature Analysis of Danish Pronominal Paradigms with a View to a Danish Application of the Pronominal Approach", it is stated "In Danish, only one pronoun (man) is clitic by nature, whereas most pronouns are clitic under specific syntactic conditions". In the article, "clitic" is also regarded as "verb-bound" (for the French pronominal system).



    I note that the examples on the English Wikipedia show 's, I'm and je t'aime. man on the other hand is a separate word which can move far from a verb, e.g., in Europarl I see the example "... og at man i 1999 kun har budgetteret ..." where "har" is the verb



    Are there separate concepts at play here?










    share|improve this question
























      1












      1








      1


      2






      I am trying to understand the concept of clitics.



      In the paper, "Feature Analysis of Danish Pronominal Paradigms with a View to a Danish Application of the Pronominal Approach", it is stated "In Danish, only one pronoun (man) is clitic by nature, whereas most pronouns are clitic under specific syntactic conditions". In the article, "clitic" is also regarded as "verb-bound" (for the French pronominal system).



      I note that the examples on the English Wikipedia show 's, I'm and je t'aime. man on the other hand is a separate word which can move far from a verb, e.g., in Europarl I see the example "... og at man i 1999 kun har budgetteret ..." where "har" is the verb



      Are there separate concepts at play here?










      share|improve this question














      I am trying to understand the concept of clitics.



      In the paper, "Feature Analysis of Danish Pronominal Paradigms with a View to a Danish Application of the Pronominal Approach", it is stated "In Danish, only one pronoun (man) is clitic by nature, whereas most pronouns are clitic under specific syntactic conditions". In the article, "clitic" is also regarded as "verb-bound" (for the French pronominal system).



      I note that the examples on the English Wikipedia show 's, I'm and je t'aime. man on the other hand is a separate word which can move far from a verb, e.g., in Europarl I see the example "... og at man i 1999 kun har budgetteret ..." where "har" is the verb



      Are there separate concepts at play here?







      clitics






      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question











      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question










      asked Jun 12 at 22:24









      Finn Årup NielsenFinn Årup Nielsen

      1445




      1445




















          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          5














          First of all, a note: not everyone believes in clitics! Some theories don't include them as a separate concept at all. But for those that do:



          The defining feature of a clitic, in most theories, is that it's tightly bound to the word next to it. Phonologically, it's treated as part of the same word, rather than a separate word in and of itself.



          But, crucially, clitics can move around to different places in the sentence—they're not morphologically or syntactically part of the same word. Compare the following:




          Alice and Bob 's house
          Domus Aliciae et Robertī




          In English, the 's attaches to the entire phrase "Alice and Bob"; in Latin, the genitive (possessive) marker is put onto every word in the phrase instead. So 's is called a clitic and -ae is called an affix.



          As an additional guideline, clitics are "promiscuous": they can attach to anything and everything that's in the right syntactic position. Affixes generally aren't: the English plural -s can't attach to nouns like ox or man, for example, while 's can attach to the end of any English noun—or any phrase that acts like a noun, which is why we see surgeons general but surgeon general 's. (It's not always written as 's, but that's just orthography: Jesus' is pronounced just like Jesus + 's.)



          So while I don't speak Danish, I wouldn't say that sort of movement disqualifies something from being a clitic: it's actually a point in favor of the clitic analysis, as opposed to analyzing it as an affix. Whether it's a clitic or a separate word then comes down to phonology.






          share|improve this answer























          • I doubt that the 's of "Alice and Bob's house" actually attaches to the entire phrase, as you say. If it did, what would be wrong with *"Alice and me 's house"? The "'s" attaches to "me", but there is no word "me's", so we must use the suppletive form "my" instead.

            – Greg Lee
            Jun 13 at 4:38






          • 4





            @GregLee I suspect many people would be uncomfortable with Alice and my house too though. To me it's just as plausible that the 's does attach to the entire phrase, but me's triggers alarm bells downstream so people just avoid the construction.

            – Minty
            Jun 13 at 9:06











          • But you say "The guy who called me's number is on that piece of paper"

            – user6726
            Jun 13 at 17:04











          • @Minty, But if "me's" is not a constituent, why should there any alarm bells, upstream or downstream or wherever?

            – Greg Lee
            Jun 13 at 20:27











          • @user6726, Interesting example. If "me's" were edited to "my", we'd be left with "the guy who called my number".

            – Greg Lee
            Jun 13 at 20:32


















          3














          The exposition in Schøsler's paper is a bit difficult to relate to general theoretical linguistic concepts (it's a different theoretical perspective from most work on Scandinavian), but with a light reading of the paper, it looks as though (a) her claim isn't incomprehensible from a non-hi-tech theoretical perspective and (b) your example seems to be a problem. It is true that in some languages clitics are positioned relative to the verb phrase, but that's not a defining property of clitic. For example, the definite in Norwegian and Swedish are credible examples of clitics. There may be cliticization in certain dialects of Norwegian between monosyllabic WH-word plus monosyllabic pronoun which interacts with the V2 generalization (ka du sa? rather than hva sa du?).



          Assuming that immediate pre-verbal position is the diagnostic for clitic (especially the impossibility of intervening parentheticals), your example seems to be problematic. If V2 behavior is the diagnostic, V2 is a main clause phenomenon, and your example is from a subordinate clause, then you would not expect man to attach to the verb. Dunno if that what she is claiming, though.






          share|improve this answer






























            0














            While not an expert on the issue, I'd point out that the example you give from Europarl is a subordinate clause, and that main clauses and subordinate clauses have different constraints and rules governing them in Danish.



            Schøsler writes "The form man (you, one), preposed or postposed, is always clitic and thus permits no insertion at all between man and the verb" (2.2.1, p. 121). It seems to me, she's dealing solely with main clauses here, even if she only says so explicitly further on (under 2.2.4.1, p. 124).






            share|improve this answer

























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              3 Answers
              3






              active

              oldest

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              3 Answers
              3






              active

              oldest

              votes









              active

              oldest

              votes






              active

              oldest

              votes









              5














              First of all, a note: not everyone believes in clitics! Some theories don't include them as a separate concept at all. But for those that do:



              The defining feature of a clitic, in most theories, is that it's tightly bound to the word next to it. Phonologically, it's treated as part of the same word, rather than a separate word in and of itself.



              But, crucially, clitics can move around to different places in the sentence—they're not morphologically or syntactically part of the same word. Compare the following:




              Alice and Bob 's house
              Domus Aliciae et Robertī




              In English, the 's attaches to the entire phrase "Alice and Bob"; in Latin, the genitive (possessive) marker is put onto every word in the phrase instead. So 's is called a clitic and -ae is called an affix.



              As an additional guideline, clitics are "promiscuous": they can attach to anything and everything that's in the right syntactic position. Affixes generally aren't: the English plural -s can't attach to nouns like ox or man, for example, while 's can attach to the end of any English noun—or any phrase that acts like a noun, which is why we see surgeons general but surgeon general 's. (It's not always written as 's, but that's just orthography: Jesus' is pronounced just like Jesus + 's.)



              So while I don't speak Danish, I wouldn't say that sort of movement disqualifies something from being a clitic: it's actually a point in favor of the clitic analysis, as opposed to analyzing it as an affix. Whether it's a clitic or a separate word then comes down to phonology.






              share|improve this answer























              • I doubt that the 's of "Alice and Bob's house" actually attaches to the entire phrase, as you say. If it did, what would be wrong with *"Alice and me 's house"? The "'s" attaches to "me", but there is no word "me's", so we must use the suppletive form "my" instead.

                – Greg Lee
                Jun 13 at 4:38






              • 4





                @GregLee I suspect many people would be uncomfortable with Alice and my house too though. To me it's just as plausible that the 's does attach to the entire phrase, but me's triggers alarm bells downstream so people just avoid the construction.

                – Minty
                Jun 13 at 9:06











              • But you say "The guy who called me's number is on that piece of paper"

                – user6726
                Jun 13 at 17:04











              • @Minty, But if "me's" is not a constituent, why should there any alarm bells, upstream or downstream or wherever?

                – Greg Lee
                Jun 13 at 20:27











              • @user6726, Interesting example. If "me's" were edited to "my", we'd be left with "the guy who called my number".

                – Greg Lee
                Jun 13 at 20:32















              5














              First of all, a note: not everyone believes in clitics! Some theories don't include them as a separate concept at all. But for those that do:



              The defining feature of a clitic, in most theories, is that it's tightly bound to the word next to it. Phonologically, it's treated as part of the same word, rather than a separate word in and of itself.



              But, crucially, clitics can move around to different places in the sentence—they're not morphologically or syntactically part of the same word. Compare the following:




              Alice and Bob 's house
              Domus Aliciae et Robertī




              In English, the 's attaches to the entire phrase "Alice and Bob"; in Latin, the genitive (possessive) marker is put onto every word in the phrase instead. So 's is called a clitic and -ae is called an affix.



              As an additional guideline, clitics are "promiscuous": they can attach to anything and everything that's in the right syntactic position. Affixes generally aren't: the English plural -s can't attach to nouns like ox or man, for example, while 's can attach to the end of any English noun—or any phrase that acts like a noun, which is why we see surgeons general but surgeon general 's. (It's not always written as 's, but that's just orthography: Jesus' is pronounced just like Jesus + 's.)



              So while I don't speak Danish, I wouldn't say that sort of movement disqualifies something from being a clitic: it's actually a point in favor of the clitic analysis, as opposed to analyzing it as an affix. Whether it's a clitic or a separate word then comes down to phonology.






              share|improve this answer























              • I doubt that the 's of "Alice and Bob's house" actually attaches to the entire phrase, as you say. If it did, what would be wrong with *"Alice and me 's house"? The "'s" attaches to "me", but there is no word "me's", so we must use the suppletive form "my" instead.

                – Greg Lee
                Jun 13 at 4:38






              • 4





                @GregLee I suspect many people would be uncomfortable with Alice and my house too though. To me it's just as plausible that the 's does attach to the entire phrase, but me's triggers alarm bells downstream so people just avoid the construction.

                – Minty
                Jun 13 at 9:06











              • But you say "The guy who called me's number is on that piece of paper"

                – user6726
                Jun 13 at 17:04











              • @Minty, But if "me's" is not a constituent, why should there any alarm bells, upstream or downstream or wherever?

                – Greg Lee
                Jun 13 at 20:27











              • @user6726, Interesting example. If "me's" were edited to "my", we'd be left with "the guy who called my number".

                – Greg Lee
                Jun 13 at 20:32













              5












              5








              5







              First of all, a note: not everyone believes in clitics! Some theories don't include them as a separate concept at all. But for those that do:



              The defining feature of a clitic, in most theories, is that it's tightly bound to the word next to it. Phonologically, it's treated as part of the same word, rather than a separate word in and of itself.



              But, crucially, clitics can move around to different places in the sentence—they're not morphologically or syntactically part of the same word. Compare the following:




              Alice and Bob 's house
              Domus Aliciae et Robertī




              In English, the 's attaches to the entire phrase "Alice and Bob"; in Latin, the genitive (possessive) marker is put onto every word in the phrase instead. So 's is called a clitic and -ae is called an affix.



              As an additional guideline, clitics are "promiscuous": they can attach to anything and everything that's in the right syntactic position. Affixes generally aren't: the English plural -s can't attach to nouns like ox or man, for example, while 's can attach to the end of any English noun—or any phrase that acts like a noun, which is why we see surgeons general but surgeon general 's. (It's not always written as 's, but that's just orthography: Jesus' is pronounced just like Jesus + 's.)



              So while I don't speak Danish, I wouldn't say that sort of movement disqualifies something from being a clitic: it's actually a point in favor of the clitic analysis, as opposed to analyzing it as an affix. Whether it's a clitic or a separate word then comes down to phonology.






              share|improve this answer













              First of all, a note: not everyone believes in clitics! Some theories don't include them as a separate concept at all. But for those that do:



              The defining feature of a clitic, in most theories, is that it's tightly bound to the word next to it. Phonologically, it's treated as part of the same word, rather than a separate word in and of itself.



              But, crucially, clitics can move around to different places in the sentence—they're not morphologically or syntactically part of the same word. Compare the following:




              Alice and Bob 's house
              Domus Aliciae et Robertī




              In English, the 's attaches to the entire phrase "Alice and Bob"; in Latin, the genitive (possessive) marker is put onto every word in the phrase instead. So 's is called a clitic and -ae is called an affix.



              As an additional guideline, clitics are "promiscuous": they can attach to anything and everything that's in the right syntactic position. Affixes generally aren't: the English plural -s can't attach to nouns like ox or man, for example, while 's can attach to the end of any English noun—or any phrase that acts like a noun, which is why we see surgeons general but surgeon general 's. (It's not always written as 's, but that's just orthography: Jesus' is pronounced just like Jesus + 's.)



              So while I don't speak Danish, I wouldn't say that sort of movement disqualifies something from being a clitic: it's actually a point in favor of the clitic analysis, as opposed to analyzing it as an affix. Whether it's a clitic or a separate word then comes down to phonology.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered Jun 12 at 23:21









              DraconisDraconis

              15.9k12466




              15.9k12466












              • I doubt that the 's of "Alice and Bob's house" actually attaches to the entire phrase, as you say. If it did, what would be wrong with *"Alice and me 's house"? The "'s" attaches to "me", but there is no word "me's", so we must use the suppletive form "my" instead.

                – Greg Lee
                Jun 13 at 4:38






              • 4





                @GregLee I suspect many people would be uncomfortable with Alice and my house too though. To me it's just as plausible that the 's does attach to the entire phrase, but me's triggers alarm bells downstream so people just avoid the construction.

                – Minty
                Jun 13 at 9:06











              • But you say "The guy who called me's number is on that piece of paper"

                – user6726
                Jun 13 at 17:04











              • @Minty, But if "me's" is not a constituent, why should there any alarm bells, upstream or downstream or wherever?

                – Greg Lee
                Jun 13 at 20:27











              • @user6726, Interesting example. If "me's" were edited to "my", we'd be left with "the guy who called my number".

                – Greg Lee
                Jun 13 at 20:32

















              • I doubt that the 's of "Alice and Bob's house" actually attaches to the entire phrase, as you say. If it did, what would be wrong with *"Alice and me 's house"? The "'s" attaches to "me", but there is no word "me's", so we must use the suppletive form "my" instead.

                – Greg Lee
                Jun 13 at 4:38






              • 4





                @GregLee I suspect many people would be uncomfortable with Alice and my house too though. To me it's just as plausible that the 's does attach to the entire phrase, but me's triggers alarm bells downstream so people just avoid the construction.

                – Minty
                Jun 13 at 9:06











              • But you say "The guy who called me's number is on that piece of paper"

                – user6726
                Jun 13 at 17:04











              • @Minty, But if "me's" is not a constituent, why should there any alarm bells, upstream or downstream or wherever?

                – Greg Lee
                Jun 13 at 20:27











              • @user6726, Interesting example. If "me's" were edited to "my", we'd be left with "the guy who called my number".

                – Greg Lee
                Jun 13 at 20:32
















              I doubt that the 's of "Alice and Bob's house" actually attaches to the entire phrase, as you say. If it did, what would be wrong with *"Alice and me 's house"? The "'s" attaches to "me", but there is no word "me's", so we must use the suppletive form "my" instead.

              – Greg Lee
              Jun 13 at 4:38





              I doubt that the 's of "Alice and Bob's house" actually attaches to the entire phrase, as you say. If it did, what would be wrong with *"Alice and me 's house"? The "'s" attaches to "me", but there is no word "me's", so we must use the suppletive form "my" instead.

              – Greg Lee
              Jun 13 at 4:38




              4




              4





              @GregLee I suspect many people would be uncomfortable with Alice and my house too though. To me it's just as plausible that the 's does attach to the entire phrase, but me's triggers alarm bells downstream so people just avoid the construction.

              – Minty
              Jun 13 at 9:06





              @GregLee I suspect many people would be uncomfortable with Alice and my house too though. To me it's just as plausible that the 's does attach to the entire phrase, but me's triggers alarm bells downstream so people just avoid the construction.

              – Minty
              Jun 13 at 9:06













              But you say "The guy who called me's number is on that piece of paper"

              – user6726
              Jun 13 at 17:04





              But you say "The guy who called me's number is on that piece of paper"

              – user6726
              Jun 13 at 17:04













              @Minty, But if "me's" is not a constituent, why should there any alarm bells, upstream or downstream or wherever?

              – Greg Lee
              Jun 13 at 20:27





              @Minty, But if "me's" is not a constituent, why should there any alarm bells, upstream or downstream or wherever?

              – Greg Lee
              Jun 13 at 20:27













              @user6726, Interesting example. If "me's" were edited to "my", we'd be left with "the guy who called my number".

              – Greg Lee
              Jun 13 at 20:32





              @user6726, Interesting example. If "me's" were edited to "my", we'd be left with "the guy who called my number".

              – Greg Lee
              Jun 13 at 20:32













              3














              The exposition in Schøsler's paper is a bit difficult to relate to general theoretical linguistic concepts (it's a different theoretical perspective from most work on Scandinavian), but with a light reading of the paper, it looks as though (a) her claim isn't incomprehensible from a non-hi-tech theoretical perspective and (b) your example seems to be a problem. It is true that in some languages clitics are positioned relative to the verb phrase, but that's not a defining property of clitic. For example, the definite in Norwegian and Swedish are credible examples of clitics. There may be cliticization in certain dialects of Norwegian between monosyllabic WH-word plus monosyllabic pronoun which interacts with the V2 generalization (ka du sa? rather than hva sa du?).



              Assuming that immediate pre-verbal position is the diagnostic for clitic (especially the impossibility of intervening parentheticals), your example seems to be problematic. If V2 behavior is the diagnostic, V2 is a main clause phenomenon, and your example is from a subordinate clause, then you would not expect man to attach to the verb. Dunno if that what she is claiming, though.






              share|improve this answer



























                3














                The exposition in Schøsler's paper is a bit difficult to relate to general theoretical linguistic concepts (it's a different theoretical perspective from most work on Scandinavian), but with a light reading of the paper, it looks as though (a) her claim isn't incomprehensible from a non-hi-tech theoretical perspective and (b) your example seems to be a problem. It is true that in some languages clitics are positioned relative to the verb phrase, but that's not a defining property of clitic. For example, the definite in Norwegian and Swedish are credible examples of clitics. There may be cliticization in certain dialects of Norwegian between monosyllabic WH-word plus monosyllabic pronoun which interacts with the V2 generalization (ka du sa? rather than hva sa du?).



                Assuming that immediate pre-verbal position is the diagnostic for clitic (especially the impossibility of intervening parentheticals), your example seems to be problematic. If V2 behavior is the diagnostic, V2 is a main clause phenomenon, and your example is from a subordinate clause, then you would not expect man to attach to the verb. Dunno if that what she is claiming, though.






                share|improve this answer

























                  3












                  3








                  3







                  The exposition in Schøsler's paper is a bit difficult to relate to general theoretical linguistic concepts (it's a different theoretical perspective from most work on Scandinavian), but with a light reading of the paper, it looks as though (a) her claim isn't incomprehensible from a non-hi-tech theoretical perspective and (b) your example seems to be a problem. It is true that in some languages clitics are positioned relative to the verb phrase, but that's not a defining property of clitic. For example, the definite in Norwegian and Swedish are credible examples of clitics. There may be cliticization in certain dialects of Norwegian between monosyllabic WH-word plus monosyllabic pronoun which interacts with the V2 generalization (ka du sa? rather than hva sa du?).



                  Assuming that immediate pre-verbal position is the diagnostic for clitic (especially the impossibility of intervening parentheticals), your example seems to be problematic. If V2 behavior is the diagnostic, V2 is a main clause phenomenon, and your example is from a subordinate clause, then you would not expect man to attach to the verb. Dunno if that what she is claiming, though.






                  share|improve this answer













                  The exposition in Schøsler's paper is a bit difficult to relate to general theoretical linguistic concepts (it's a different theoretical perspective from most work on Scandinavian), but with a light reading of the paper, it looks as though (a) her claim isn't incomprehensible from a non-hi-tech theoretical perspective and (b) your example seems to be a problem. It is true that in some languages clitics are positioned relative to the verb phrase, but that's not a defining property of clitic. For example, the definite in Norwegian and Swedish are credible examples of clitics. There may be cliticization in certain dialects of Norwegian between monosyllabic WH-word plus monosyllabic pronoun which interacts with the V2 generalization (ka du sa? rather than hva sa du?).



                  Assuming that immediate pre-verbal position is the diagnostic for clitic (especially the impossibility of intervening parentheticals), your example seems to be problematic. If V2 behavior is the diagnostic, V2 is a main clause phenomenon, and your example is from a subordinate clause, then you would not expect man to attach to the verb. Dunno if that what she is claiming, though.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered Jun 13 at 0:25









                  user6726user6726

                  36.8k12471




                  36.8k12471





















                      0














                      While not an expert on the issue, I'd point out that the example you give from Europarl is a subordinate clause, and that main clauses and subordinate clauses have different constraints and rules governing them in Danish.



                      Schøsler writes "The form man (you, one), preposed or postposed, is always clitic and thus permits no insertion at all between man and the verb" (2.2.1, p. 121). It seems to me, she's dealing solely with main clauses here, even if she only says so explicitly further on (under 2.2.4.1, p. 124).






                      share|improve this answer



























                        0














                        While not an expert on the issue, I'd point out that the example you give from Europarl is a subordinate clause, and that main clauses and subordinate clauses have different constraints and rules governing them in Danish.



                        Schøsler writes "The form man (you, one), preposed or postposed, is always clitic and thus permits no insertion at all between man and the verb" (2.2.1, p. 121). It seems to me, she's dealing solely with main clauses here, even if she only says so explicitly further on (under 2.2.4.1, p. 124).






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                          While not an expert on the issue, I'd point out that the example you give from Europarl is a subordinate clause, and that main clauses and subordinate clauses have different constraints and rules governing them in Danish.



                          Schøsler writes "The form man (you, one), preposed or postposed, is always clitic and thus permits no insertion at all between man and the verb" (2.2.1, p. 121). It seems to me, she's dealing solely with main clauses here, even if she only says so explicitly further on (under 2.2.4.1, p. 124).






                          share|improve this answer













                          While not an expert on the issue, I'd point out that the example you give from Europarl is a subordinate clause, and that main clauses and subordinate clauses have different constraints and rules governing them in Danish.



                          Schøsler writes "The form man (you, one), preposed or postposed, is always clitic and thus permits no insertion at all between man and the verb" (2.2.1, p. 121). It seems to me, she's dealing solely with main clauses here, even if she only says so explicitly further on (under 2.2.4.1, p. 124).







                          share|improve this answer












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                          answered Jun 13 at 10:32









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