Why would a pilot use ailerons for countering asymmetric thrust in mid-flight?A320 procedures for one thrust reverser inoperative; why is the old procedure more efficient?Why don't we use elevator trim as the primary flight control?How do the actuator loads (e.g. for the ailerons) vary between different flight phases?Why use a single engine plane instead of a multi engine one for a long range flight record?Can asymmetric thrust occur for Single engine airplane at idle power during stall practice?Does the FBW system of a passenger aircraft use differential thrust for yawing?Why is the 737’s aileron/spoiler authority reduced at low flap settings?Why do aircraft have a crossover airspeed, and why does it increase at higher vertical load factors?Why does the A320 use the rudder for lateral control in mechanical law?Would throttle steering of a forward-swept-winged aircraft be possible?
Need help understanding lens reach
How does the oscilloscope trigger really work?
How would a family travel from Indiana to Texas in 1911?
What is the resistivity of copper at 3 kelvin?
Our group keeps dying during the Lost Mine of Phandelver campaign. What are we doing wrong?
polynomial, find the sum of the inverse roots of this equation.
What was the first multiprocessor x86 motherboard?
In a topological space if there exists a loop that cannot be contracted to a point does there exist a simple loop that cannot be contracted also?
Colleagues speaking another language and it impacts work
In Pokémon Go, why does one of my Pikachu have an option to evolve, but another one doesn't?
Where is the rule for moving slowly when searching for traps that’s referenced by Dungeon Delver?
Finish the Mastermind
Word or idiom defining something barely functional
Is Odin inconsistent about the powers of Mjolnir?
How is the return type of a ternary operator determined?
Does the Voyager team use a wrapper (Fortran(77?) to Python) to transmit current commands?
Secure my password from unsafe servers
Short story about a teenager who has his brain replaced with a microchip (Psychological Horror)
Where to pee in London?
"How do you solve a problem like Maria?"
Can we use other things than single-word verbs in our dialog tags?
What word can be used to describe a bug in a movie?
How quickly could a country build a tall concrete wall around a city?
Is this cheap "air conditioner" able to cool a room?
Why would a pilot use ailerons for countering asymmetric thrust in mid-flight?
A320 procedures for one thrust reverser inoperative; why is the old procedure more efficient?Why don't we use elevator trim as the primary flight control?How do the actuator loads (e.g. for the ailerons) vary between different flight phases?Why use a single engine plane instead of a multi engine one for a long range flight record?Can asymmetric thrust occur for Single engine airplane at idle power during stall practice?Does the FBW system of a passenger aircraft use differential thrust for yawing?Why is the 737’s aileron/spoiler authority reduced at low flap settings?Why do aircraft have a crossover airspeed, and why does it increase at higher vertical load factors?Why does the A320 use the rudder for lateral control in mechanical law?Would throttle steering of a forward-swept-winged aircraft be possible?
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
$begingroup$
A inexperienced 747-400 pilot used ailerons for counteracting asymmetric thrust in 1998 aboard United Airlines Flight 863 (YouTube recreation).
Why would an airline pilot do such a mistake? Why would a pilot disregard the counter yaw training he got from the Baron 58 to the 737?
Is he the only pilot that did this or are there other pilots that do the same mistake too?
Perhaps he simply forgot rudder.
flight-controls engine-failure incidents
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A inexperienced 747-400 pilot used ailerons for counteracting asymmetric thrust in 1998 aboard United Airlines Flight 863 (YouTube recreation).
Why would an airline pilot do such a mistake? Why would a pilot disregard the counter yaw training he got from the Baron 58 to the 737?
Is he the only pilot that did this or are there other pilots that do the same mistake too?
Perhaps he simply forgot rudder.
flight-controls engine-failure incidents
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A inexperienced 747-400 pilot used ailerons for counteracting asymmetric thrust in 1998 aboard United Airlines Flight 863 (YouTube recreation).
Why would an airline pilot do such a mistake? Why would a pilot disregard the counter yaw training he got from the Baron 58 to the 737?
Is he the only pilot that did this or are there other pilots that do the same mistake too?
Perhaps he simply forgot rudder.
flight-controls engine-failure incidents
$endgroup$
A inexperienced 747-400 pilot used ailerons for counteracting asymmetric thrust in 1998 aboard United Airlines Flight 863 (YouTube recreation).
Why would an airline pilot do such a mistake? Why would a pilot disregard the counter yaw training he got from the Baron 58 to the 737?
Is he the only pilot that did this or are there other pilots that do the same mistake too?
Perhaps he simply forgot rudder.
flight-controls engine-failure incidents
flight-controls engine-failure incidents
edited Jul 29 at 3:18
ymb1
77.3k9 gold badges249 silver badges418 bronze badges
77.3k9 gold badges249 silver badges418 bronze badges
asked Jul 28 at 22:26
Delta Oscar UniformDelta Oscar Uniform
1,7751 gold badge15 silver badges39 bronze badges
1,7751 gold badge15 silver badges39 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
This AOPA article "PROFICIENT PILOT LAZY-RUDDER SYNDROME" written about this incident, presents an interesting point of view on the matter, that basically good design and complacency leads to little regular rudder use so in emergencies its initially over looked.
This pilot might have been affected by "lazy-rudder syndrome," the
reluctance to use a rudder to the extent dictated by given
circumstances. Some believe that this reflects a general decline in
basic stick-and-rudder skills. A commonly observed symptom of this is
lowering the right wing during initial climb after takeoff to
incorrectly compensate for a single-engine airplane's left-turning
tendency.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You do that stuff every year in the sim (your first V1 cut during your initial course in a jet is usually quite entertaining), but you never really know how anyone is going to perform until the real deal happens. 98% of the time the training and drill ensures that people can perform, but there are no guarantees, and sometimes people go straight to mental saturation or mental confusion mode even though they passed the simulated emergencies.
Another factor in this case:
In a twin, when an engine fails at takeoff thrust, they yaw pretty hard and start to roll hard immediately (because of the sweep of the wings), and both the yaw and the follow-on roll are really obvious. If you do nothing with your feet you will find yourself with full aileron and the thing is still rolling over into the dead engine.
With the #3 going south in a 4 engine airliner, the asymmetry is more subtle; the brick (skid indicator) doesn't slide all the way across, and you may not need anything close to full aileron. So not reacting the the engine failure with rudder doesn't have the same holy crap aspect to it and moderate aileron keeps the wings level, but you are still in a significant side slip in a giant flying barn and it kills the rate of climb.
So a pilot who gets that kind of surprise, new to the type, being mentally led astray by the noises that could be interpreted as tires blowing, it's not too hard to see that kind of reaction as a possibility.
What gets me is the Capt not really doing anything at the critical time. Very strange. I'll bet the Capt probably got in bigger trouble than the FO in the aftermath.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Not sure if everything that went on was in the video, or if video producer really understood what SHOULD have been done in that situation. Biggest surprise watching was they didn't immediately reduce pitch when engine went, and allowed airspeed to deteriorate. That may have been the better subject (along with almost flying into the mountain).
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
Jul 29 at 2:53
$begingroup$
Well if you're hand flying you just fly the flight director and it'll tell you what to do with pitch based on the speed selection (they should have been in speed mode by then). I think the FO was in brain freeze mode because he didn't comprehend what was happening and was probably fixated on just leveling the wings, ignoring the pitch command and the brick. The capt should have intervened a lot earlier tho.
$endgroup$
– John K
Jul 29 at 3:40
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Using ailerons to counter asymmetric thrust is a known technique and not necessarily a mistake, especially when flying a plane that is not designed for aggressive ruddering.
Asymmetric thrust creates yaw towards the side of the "dead" engine. Using a twin engine as a simple example, we want to create a yaw torque away from a left dead to counteract asymmetric thrust. Rudder away (to right) is one method.
Rolling away (to right) will indirectly create right yaw force as follows: dead left engine, roll right, slip right, plane moves laterally right, side force created on RIGHT side of tail, tail is pushed LEFT (nose is yawed right).
The procedure to counter an engine out certainly would be in the POH of the aircraft.
Rather than say one is right or wrong, it may be best to get expert training for that particular type of aircraft.
Theoretically, both methods will work. Using opposite rudder creates drag too. The question is which method works better for the 747. As far as decrying "lack of stick and rudder skills" (from the peanut gallery), no, lack of engine out training, and, perhaps, too many cooks in the kitchen. Nice video. However, one of them knew to check the airspeed.
It may be possible to use both aileron (spoileron) and rudder together.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Best to compensate asymmetric yaw with opposite yaw directly. Direct control of only the parameter in the 6-DoF matrix that requires correction.
$endgroup$
– Koyovis
Jul 29 at 1:46
$begingroup$
Except if the rudder may tear off. The real mistakes were loss of airspeed and lack of awareness of the terrain. The 747 cleared the mountain on 3 engines!!! Amazing.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
Jul 29 at 1:51
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In the long run you want to do three things:
One: immediately arrest the initial yaw ( heading change) toward the bad engine. In the short run you can view the rudder as being the most important control for this purpose, but in the long run other things play important roles (see below).
Two: eliminate all sideslip so a yaw string (if it were present) would be centered. This is accomplished by putting the rudder in the position that almost centers the ball, but not quite. Typically it should be left about half a width toward the good engine. The reason for this is given in a related answer (link to be added.) This ball position should held while turning as well as while flying in a straight line.
Three: adjust the bank angle to eliminate any heading change that may have developed after accomplishing step 2 (unless you are trying to turn.) This may be accomplished with the ailerons. Given the condition established in (two), this will require a slight bank toward the good engine. After all, the slip-skid ball acts like a bubble level (in reverse- so a pendulum really) whenever heading is exactly constant, so it is clear from the ball position what bank angle must be required to hold the heading constant. The reason for this is given in the same related link noted above.
Functionally, the same result arises- at least when the goal is to simply fly in a straight line-- if the pilot uses rudder to hold heading and aileron to set the ball position, but this is really kind of a backwards way of doing things. Just as it is possible to fly blind using a turn rate indicator using the ailerons primarily to control the needle, and the rudder primarily to control the ball, or vice versa. Most would agree that the former is the better way, but both can accomplish the same result, due to feedback loops.
Anyway, anything that prevents the plane from rolling toward the dead engine is a good thing-- once a turn starts, it tends to continue- so adding an aileron input early in the game doesn't necessarily hurt anything and will probably help a least a little bit, even with no rudder input, as long as the aileron design is a style that doesn't create appreciable "adverse yaw".
I guess this answer doesn't really address why this particular pilot did what he did-- why he omitted any rudder input-- lack of recent training, poor training, poor understanding, too much time spent flying maneuvers that only require yoke inputs and not rudder inputs, or ???
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
disclaimer - I don't fly twin or multiengine planes
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
Jul 29 at 2:42
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "528"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2faviation.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f67059%2fwhy-would-a-pilot-use-ailerons-for-countering-asymmetric-thrust-in-mid-flight%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
This AOPA article "PROFICIENT PILOT LAZY-RUDDER SYNDROME" written about this incident, presents an interesting point of view on the matter, that basically good design and complacency leads to little regular rudder use so in emergencies its initially over looked.
This pilot might have been affected by "lazy-rudder syndrome," the
reluctance to use a rudder to the extent dictated by given
circumstances. Some believe that this reflects a general decline in
basic stick-and-rudder skills. A commonly observed symptom of this is
lowering the right wing during initial climb after takeoff to
incorrectly compensate for a single-engine airplane's left-turning
tendency.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This AOPA article "PROFICIENT PILOT LAZY-RUDDER SYNDROME" written about this incident, presents an interesting point of view on the matter, that basically good design and complacency leads to little regular rudder use so in emergencies its initially over looked.
This pilot might have been affected by "lazy-rudder syndrome," the
reluctance to use a rudder to the extent dictated by given
circumstances. Some believe that this reflects a general decline in
basic stick-and-rudder skills. A commonly observed symptom of this is
lowering the right wing during initial climb after takeoff to
incorrectly compensate for a single-engine airplane's left-turning
tendency.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This AOPA article "PROFICIENT PILOT LAZY-RUDDER SYNDROME" written about this incident, presents an interesting point of view on the matter, that basically good design and complacency leads to little regular rudder use so in emergencies its initially over looked.
This pilot might have been affected by "lazy-rudder syndrome," the
reluctance to use a rudder to the extent dictated by given
circumstances. Some believe that this reflects a general decline in
basic stick-and-rudder skills. A commonly observed symptom of this is
lowering the right wing during initial climb after takeoff to
incorrectly compensate for a single-engine airplane's left-turning
tendency.
$endgroup$
This AOPA article "PROFICIENT PILOT LAZY-RUDDER SYNDROME" written about this incident, presents an interesting point of view on the matter, that basically good design and complacency leads to little regular rudder use so in emergencies its initially over looked.
This pilot might have been affected by "lazy-rudder syndrome," the
reluctance to use a rudder to the extent dictated by given
circumstances. Some believe that this reflects a general decline in
basic stick-and-rudder skills. A commonly observed symptom of this is
lowering the right wing during initial climb after takeoff to
incorrectly compensate for a single-engine airplane's left-turning
tendency.
edited Jul 29 at 2:25
answered Jul 28 at 23:27
DaveDave
74.9k4 gold badges150 silver badges268 bronze badges
74.9k4 gold badges150 silver badges268 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You do that stuff every year in the sim (your first V1 cut during your initial course in a jet is usually quite entertaining), but you never really know how anyone is going to perform until the real deal happens. 98% of the time the training and drill ensures that people can perform, but there are no guarantees, and sometimes people go straight to mental saturation or mental confusion mode even though they passed the simulated emergencies.
Another factor in this case:
In a twin, when an engine fails at takeoff thrust, they yaw pretty hard and start to roll hard immediately (because of the sweep of the wings), and both the yaw and the follow-on roll are really obvious. If you do nothing with your feet you will find yourself with full aileron and the thing is still rolling over into the dead engine.
With the #3 going south in a 4 engine airliner, the asymmetry is more subtle; the brick (skid indicator) doesn't slide all the way across, and you may not need anything close to full aileron. So not reacting the the engine failure with rudder doesn't have the same holy crap aspect to it and moderate aileron keeps the wings level, but you are still in a significant side slip in a giant flying barn and it kills the rate of climb.
So a pilot who gets that kind of surprise, new to the type, being mentally led astray by the noises that could be interpreted as tires blowing, it's not too hard to see that kind of reaction as a possibility.
What gets me is the Capt not really doing anything at the critical time. Very strange. I'll bet the Capt probably got in bigger trouble than the FO in the aftermath.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Not sure if everything that went on was in the video, or if video producer really understood what SHOULD have been done in that situation. Biggest surprise watching was they didn't immediately reduce pitch when engine went, and allowed airspeed to deteriorate. That may have been the better subject (along with almost flying into the mountain).
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
Jul 29 at 2:53
$begingroup$
Well if you're hand flying you just fly the flight director and it'll tell you what to do with pitch based on the speed selection (they should have been in speed mode by then). I think the FO was in brain freeze mode because he didn't comprehend what was happening and was probably fixated on just leveling the wings, ignoring the pitch command and the brick. The capt should have intervened a lot earlier tho.
$endgroup$
– John K
Jul 29 at 3:40
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You do that stuff every year in the sim (your first V1 cut during your initial course in a jet is usually quite entertaining), but you never really know how anyone is going to perform until the real deal happens. 98% of the time the training and drill ensures that people can perform, but there are no guarantees, and sometimes people go straight to mental saturation or mental confusion mode even though they passed the simulated emergencies.
Another factor in this case:
In a twin, when an engine fails at takeoff thrust, they yaw pretty hard and start to roll hard immediately (because of the sweep of the wings), and both the yaw and the follow-on roll are really obvious. If you do nothing with your feet you will find yourself with full aileron and the thing is still rolling over into the dead engine.
With the #3 going south in a 4 engine airliner, the asymmetry is more subtle; the brick (skid indicator) doesn't slide all the way across, and you may not need anything close to full aileron. So not reacting the the engine failure with rudder doesn't have the same holy crap aspect to it and moderate aileron keeps the wings level, but you are still in a significant side slip in a giant flying barn and it kills the rate of climb.
So a pilot who gets that kind of surprise, new to the type, being mentally led astray by the noises that could be interpreted as tires blowing, it's not too hard to see that kind of reaction as a possibility.
What gets me is the Capt not really doing anything at the critical time. Very strange. I'll bet the Capt probably got in bigger trouble than the FO in the aftermath.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Not sure if everything that went on was in the video, or if video producer really understood what SHOULD have been done in that situation. Biggest surprise watching was they didn't immediately reduce pitch when engine went, and allowed airspeed to deteriorate. That may have been the better subject (along with almost flying into the mountain).
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
Jul 29 at 2:53
$begingroup$
Well if you're hand flying you just fly the flight director and it'll tell you what to do with pitch based on the speed selection (they should have been in speed mode by then). I think the FO was in brain freeze mode because he didn't comprehend what was happening and was probably fixated on just leveling the wings, ignoring the pitch command and the brick. The capt should have intervened a lot earlier tho.
$endgroup$
– John K
Jul 29 at 3:40
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You do that stuff every year in the sim (your first V1 cut during your initial course in a jet is usually quite entertaining), but you never really know how anyone is going to perform until the real deal happens. 98% of the time the training and drill ensures that people can perform, but there are no guarantees, and sometimes people go straight to mental saturation or mental confusion mode even though they passed the simulated emergencies.
Another factor in this case:
In a twin, when an engine fails at takeoff thrust, they yaw pretty hard and start to roll hard immediately (because of the sweep of the wings), and both the yaw and the follow-on roll are really obvious. If you do nothing with your feet you will find yourself with full aileron and the thing is still rolling over into the dead engine.
With the #3 going south in a 4 engine airliner, the asymmetry is more subtle; the brick (skid indicator) doesn't slide all the way across, and you may not need anything close to full aileron. So not reacting the the engine failure with rudder doesn't have the same holy crap aspect to it and moderate aileron keeps the wings level, but you are still in a significant side slip in a giant flying barn and it kills the rate of climb.
So a pilot who gets that kind of surprise, new to the type, being mentally led astray by the noises that could be interpreted as tires blowing, it's not too hard to see that kind of reaction as a possibility.
What gets me is the Capt not really doing anything at the critical time. Very strange. I'll bet the Capt probably got in bigger trouble than the FO in the aftermath.
$endgroup$
You do that stuff every year in the sim (your first V1 cut during your initial course in a jet is usually quite entertaining), but you never really know how anyone is going to perform until the real deal happens. 98% of the time the training and drill ensures that people can perform, but there are no guarantees, and sometimes people go straight to mental saturation or mental confusion mode even though they passed the simulated emergencies.
Another factor in this case:
In a twin, when an engine fails at takeoff thrust, they yaw pretty hard and start to roll hard immediately (because of the sweep of the wings), and both the yaw and the follow-on roll are really obvious. If you do nothing with your feet you will find yourself with full aileron and the thing is still rolling over into the dead engine.
With the #3 going south in a 4 engine airliner, the asymmetry is more subtle; the brick (skid indicator) doesn't slide all the way across, and you may not need anything close to full aileron. So not reacting the the engine failure with rudder doesn't have the same holy crap aspect to it and moderate aileron keeps the wings level, but you are still in a significant side slip in a giant flying barn and it kills the rate of climb.
So a pilot who gets that kind of surprise, new to the type, being mentally led astray by the noises that could be interpreted as tires blowing, it's not too hard to see that kind of reaction as a possibility.
What gets me is the Capt not really doing anything at the critical time. Very strange. I'll bet the Capt probably got in bigger trouble than the FO in the aftermath.
answered Jul 29 at 1:44
John KJohn K
37k1 gold badge64 silver badges122 bronze badges
37k1 gold badge64 silver badges122 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Not sure if everything that went on was in the video, or if video producer really understood what SHOULD have been done in that situation. Biggest surprise watching was they didn't immediately reduce pitch when engine went, and allowed airspeed to deteriorate. That may have been the better subject (along with almost flying into the mountain).
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
Jul 29 at 2:53
$begingroup$
Well if you're hand flying you just fly the flight director and it'll tell you what to do with pitch based on the speed selection (they should have been in speed mode by then). I think the FO was in brain freeze mode because he didn't comprehend what was happening and was probably fixated on just leveling the wings, ignoring the pitch command and the brick. The capt should have intervened a lot earlier tho.
$endgroup$
– John K
Jul 29 at 3:40
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Not sure if everything that went on was in the video, or if video producer really understood what SHOULD have been done in that situation. Biggest surprise watching was they didn't immediately reduce pitch when engine went, and allowed airspeed to deteriorate. That may have been the better subject (along with almost flying into the mountain).
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
Jul 29 at 2:53
$begingroup$
Well if you're hand flying you just fly the flight director and it'll tell you what to do with pitch based on the speed selection (they should have been in speed mode by then). I think the FO was in brain freeze mode because he didn't comprehend what was happening and was probably fixated on just leveling the wings, ignoring the pitch command and the brick. The capt should have intervened a lot earlier tho.
$endgroup$
– John K
Jul 29 at 3:40
$begingroup$
Not sure if everything that went on was in the video, or if video producer really understood what SHOULD have been done in that situation. Biggest surprise watching was they didn't immediately reduce pitch when engine went, and allowed airspeed to deteriorate. That may have been the better subject (along with almost flying into the mountain).
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
Jul 29 at 2:53
$begingroup$
Not sure if everything that went on was in the video, or if video producer really understood what SHOULD have been done in that situation. Biggest surprise watching was they didn't immediately reduce pitch when engine went, and allowed airspeed to deteriorate. That may have been the better subject (along with almost flying into the mountain).
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
Jul 29 at 2:53
$begingroup$
Well if you're hand flying you just fly the flight director and it'll tell you what to do with pitch based on the speed selection (they should have been in speed mode by then). I think the FO was in brain freeze mode because he didn't comprehend what was happening and was probably fixated on just leveling the wings, ignoring the pitch command and the brick. The capt should have intervened a lot earlier tho.
$endgroup$
– John K
Jul 29 at 3:40
$begingroup$
Well if you're hand flying you just fly the flight director and it'll tell you what to do with pitch based on the speed selection (they should have been in speed mode by then). I think the FO was in brain freeze mode because he didn't comprehend what was happening and was probably fixated on just leveling the wings, ignoring the pitch command and the brick. The capt should have intervened a lot earlier tho.
$endgroup$
– John K
Jul 29 at 3:40
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Using ailerons to counter asymmetric thrust is a known technique and not necessarily a mistake, especially when flying a plane that is not designed for aggressive ruddering.
Asymmetric thrust creates yaw towards the side of the "dead" engine. Using a twin engine as a simple example, we want to create a yaw torque away from a left dead to counteract asymmetric thrust. Rudder away (to right) is one method.
Rolling away (to right) will indirectly create right yaw force as follows: dead left engine, roll right, slip right, plane moves laterally right, side force created on RIGHT side of tail, tail is pushed LEFT (nose is yawed right).
The procedure to counter an engine out certainly would be in the POH of the aircraft.
Rather than say one is right or wrong, it may be best to get expert training for that particular type of aircraft.
Theoretically, both methods will work. Using opposite rudder creates drag too. The question is which method works better for the 747. As far as decrying "lack of stick and rudder skills" (from the peanut gallery), no, lack of engine out training, and, perhaps, too many cooks in the kitchen. Nice video. However, one of them knew to check the airspeed.
It may be possible to use both aileron (spoileron) and rudder together.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Best to compensate asymmetric yaw with opposite yaw directly. Direct control of only the parameter in the 6-DoF matrix that requires correction.
$endgroup$
– Koyovis
Jul 29 at 1:46
$begingroup$
Except if the rudder may tear off. The real mistakes were loss of airspeed and lack of awareness of the terrain. The 747 cleared the mountain on 3 engines!!! Amazing.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
Jul 29 at 1:51
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Using ailerons to counter asymmetric thrust is a known technique and not necessarily a mistake, especially when flying a plane that is not designed for aggressive ruddering.
Asymmetric thrust creates yaw towards the side of the "dead" engine. Using a twin engine as a simple example, we want to create a yaw torque away from a left dead to counteract asymmetric thrust. Rudder away (to right) is one method.
Rolling away (to right) will indirectly create right yaw force as follows: dead left engine, roll right, slip right, plane moves laterally right, side force created on RIGHT side of tail, tail is pushed LEFT (nose is yawed right).
The procedure to counter an engine out certainly would be in the POH of the aircraft.
Rather than say one is right or wrong, it may be best to get expert training for that particular type of aircraft.
Theoretically, both methods will work. Using opposite rudder creates drag too. The question is which method works better for the 747. As far as decrying "lack of stick and rudder skills" (from the peanut gallery), no, lack of engine out training, and, perhaps, too many cooks in the kitchen. Nice video. However, one of them knew to check the airspeed.
It may be possible to use both aileron (spoileron) and rudder together.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Best to compensate asymmetric yaw with opposite yaw directly. Direct control of only the parameter in the 6-DoF matrix that requires correction.
$endgroup$
– Koyovis
Jul 29 at 1:46
$begingroup$
Except if the rudder may tear off. The real mistakes were loss of airspeed and lack of awareness of the terrain. The 747 cleared the mountain on 3 engines!!! Amazing.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
Jul 29 at 1:51
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Using ailerons to counter asymmetric thrust is a known technique and not necessarily a mistake, especially when flying a plane that is not designed for aggressive ruddering.
Asymmetric thrust creates yaw towards the side of the "dead" engine. Using a twin engine as a simple example, we want to create a yaw torque away from a left dead to counteract asymmetric thrust. Rudder away (to right) is one method.
Rolling away (to right) will indirectly create right yaw force as follows: dead left engine, roll right, slip right, plane moves laterally right, side force created on RIGHT side of tail, tail is pushed LEFT (nose is yawed right).
The procedure to counter an engine out certainly would be in the POH of the aircraft.
Rather than say one is right or wrong, it may be best to get expert training for that particular type of aircraft.
Theoretically, both methods will work. Using opposite rudder creates drag too. The question is which method works better for the 747. As far as decrying "lack of stick and rudder skills" (from the peanut gallery), no, lack of engine out training, and, perhaps, too many cooks in the kitchen. Nice video. However, one of them knew to check the airspeed.
It may be possible to use both aileron (spoileron) and rudder together.
$endgroup$
Using ailerons to counter asymmetric thrust is a known technique and not necessarily a mistake, especially when flying a plane that is not designed for aggressive ruddering.
Asymmetric thrust creates yaw towards the side of the "dead" engine. Using a twin engine as a simple example, we want to create a yaw torque away from a left dead to counteract asymmetric thrust. Rudder away (to right) is one method.
Rolling away (to right) will indirectly create right yaw force as follows: dead left engine, roll right, slip right, plane moves laterally right, side force created on RIGHT side of tail, tail is pushed LEFT (nose is yawed right).
The procedure to counter an engine out certainly would be in the POH of the aircraft.
Rather than say one is right or wrong, it may be best to get expert training for that particular type of aircraft.
Theoretically, both methods will work. Using opposite rudder creates drag too. The question is which method works better for the 747. As far as decrying "lack of stick and rudder skills" (from the peanut gallery), no, lack of engine out training, and, perhaps, too many cooks in the kitchen. Nice video. However, one of them knew to check the airspeed.
It may be possible to use both aileron (spoileron) and rudder together.
edited Jul 29 at 3:00
answered Jul 29 at 1:36
Robert DiGiovanniRobert DiGiovanni
4,5941 gold badge4 silver badges22 bronze badges
4,5941 gold badge4 silver badges22 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Best to compensate asymmetric yaw with opposite yaw directly. Direct control of only the parameter in the 6-DoF matrix that requires correction.
$endgroup$
– Koyovis
Jul 29 at 1:46
$begingroup$
Except if the rudder may tear off. The real mistakes were loss of airspeed and lack of awareness of the terrain. The 747 cleared the mountain on 3 engines!!! Amazing.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
Jul 29 at 1:51
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Best to compensate asymmetric yaw with opposite yaw directly. Direct control of only the parameter in the 6-DoF matrix that requires correction.
$endgroup$
– Koyovis
Jul 29 at 1:46
$begingroup$
Except if the rudder may tear off. The real mistakes were loss of airspeed and lack of awareness of the terrain. The 747 cleared the mountain on 3 engines!!! Amazing.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
Jul 29 at 1:51
$begingroup$
Best to compensate asymmetric yaw with opposite yaw directly. Direct control of only the parameter in the 6-DoF matrix that requires correction.
$endgroup$
– Koyovis
Jul 29 at 1:46
$begingroup$
Best to compensate asymmetric yaw with opposite yaw directly. Direct control of only the parameter in the 6-DoF matrix that requires correction.
$endgroup$
– Koyovis
Jul 29 at 1:46
$begingroup$
Except if the rudder may tear off. The real mistakes were loss of airspeed and lack of awareness of the terrain. The 747 cleared the mountain on 3 engines!!! Amazing.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
Jul 29 at 1:51
$begingroup$
Except if the rudder may tear off. The real mistakes were loss of airspeed and lack of awareness of the terrain. The 747 cleared the mountain on 3 engines!!! Amazing.
$endgroup$
– Robert DiGiovanni
Jul 29 at 1:51
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In the long run you want to do three things:
One: immediately arrest the initial yaw ( heading change) toward the bad engine. In the short run you can view the rudder as being the most important control for this purpose, but in the long run other things play important roles (see below).
Two: eliminate all sideslip so a yaw string (if it were present) would be centered. This is accomplished by putting the rudder in the position that almost centers the ball, but not quite. Typically it should be left about half a width toward the good engine. The reason for this is given in a related answer (link to be added.) This ball position should held while turning as well as while flying in a straight line.
Three: adjust the bank angle to eliminate any heading change that may have developed after accomplishing step 2 (unless you are trying to turn.) This may be accomplished with the ailerons. Given the condition established in (two), this will require a slight bank toward the good engine. After all, the slip-skid ball acts like a bubble level (in reverse- so a pendulum really) whenever heading is exactly constant, so it is clear from the ball position what bank angle must be required to hold the heading constant. The reason for this is given in the same related link noted above.
Functionally, the same result arises- at least when the goal is to simply fly in a straight line-- if the pilot uses rudder to hold heading and aileron to set the ball position, but this is really kind of a backwards way of doing things. Just as it is possible to fly blind using a turn rate indicator using the ailerons primarily to control the needle, and the rudder primarily to control the ball, or vice versa. Most would agree that the former is the better way, but both can accomplish the same result, due to feedback loops.
Anyway, anything that prevents the plane from rolling toward the dead engine is a good thing-- once a turn starts, it tends to continue- so adding an aileron input early in the game doesn't necessarily hurt anything and will probably help a least a little bit, even with no rudder input, as long as the aileron design is a style that doesn't create appreciable "adverse yaw".
I guess this answer doesn't really address why this particular pilot did what he did-- why he omitted any rudder input-- lack of recent training, poor training, poor understanding, too much time spent flying maneuvers that only require yoke inputs and not rudder inputs, or ???
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
disclaimer - I don't fly twin or multiengine planes
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
Jul 29 at 2:42
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In the long run you want to do three things:
One: immediately arrest the initial yaw ( heading change) toward the bad engine. In the short run you can view the rudder as being the most important control for this purpose, but in the long run other things play important roles (see below).
Two: eliminate all sideslip so a yaw string (if it were present) would be centered. This is accomplished by putting the rudder in the position that almost centers the ball, but not quite. Typically it should be left about half a width toward the good engine. The reason for this is given in a related answer (link to be added.) This ball position should held while turning as well as while flying in a straight line.
Three: adjust the bank angle to eliminate any heading change that may have developed after accomplishing step 2 (unless you are trying to turn.) This may be accomplished with the ailerons. Given the condition established in (two), this will require a slight bank toward the good engine. After all, the slip-skid ball acts like a bubble level (in reverse- so a pendulum really) whenever heading is exactly constant, so it is clear from the ball position what bank angle must be required to hold the heading constant. The reason for this is given in the same related link noted above.
Functionally, the same result arises- at least when the goal is to simply fly in a straight line-- if the pilot uses rudder to hold heading and aileron to set the ball position, but this is really kind of a backwards way of doing things. Just as it is possible to fly blind using a turn rate indicator using the ailerons primarily to control the needle, and the rudder primarily to control the ball, or vice versa. Most would agree that the former is the better way, but both can accomplish the same result, due to feedback loops.
Anyway, anything that prevents the plane from rolling toward the dead engine is a good thing-- once a turn starts, it tends to continue- so adding an aileron input early in the game doesn't necessarily hurt anything and will probably help a least a little bit, even with no rudder input, as long as the aileron design is a style that doesn't create appreciable "adverse yaw".
I guess this answer doesn't really address why this particular pilot did what he did-- why he omitted any rudder input-- lack of recent training, poor training, poor understanding, too much time spent flying maneuvers that only require yoke inputs and not rudder inputs, or ???
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
disclaimer - I don't fly twin or multiengine planes
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
Jul 29 at 2:42
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In the long run you want to do three things:
One: immediately arrest the initial yaw ( heading change) toward the bad engine. In the short run you can view the rudder as being the most important control for this purpose, but in the long run other things play important roles (see below).
Two: eliminate all sideslip so a yaw string (if it were present) would be centered. This is accomplished by putting the rudder in the position that almost centers the ball, but not quite. Typically it should be left about half a width toward the good engine. The reason for this is given in a related answer (link to be added.) This ball position should held while turning as well as while flying in a straight line.
Three: adjust the bank angle to eliminate any heading change that may have developed after accomplishing step 2 (unless you are trying to turn.) This may be accomplished with the ailerons. Given the condition established in (two), this will require a slight bank toward the good engine. After all, the slip-skid ball acts like a bubble level (in reverse- so a pendulum really) whenever heading is exactly constant, so it is clear from the ball position what bank angle must be required to hold the heading constant. The reason for this is given in the same related link noted above.
Functionally, the same result arises- at least when the goal is to simply fly in a straight line-- if the pilot uses rudder to hold heading and aileron to set the ball position, but this is really kind of a backwards way of doing things. Just as it is possible to fly blind using a turn rate indicator using the ailerons primarily to control the needle, and the rudder primarily to control the ball, or vice versa. Most would agree that the former is the better way, but both can accomplish the same result, due to feedback loops.
Anyway, anything that prevents the plane from rolling toward the dead engine is a good thing-- once a turn starts, it tends to continue- so adding an aileron input early in the game doesn't necessarily hurt anything and will probably help a least a little bit, even with no rudder input, as long as the aileron design is a style that doesn't create appreciable "adverse yaw".
I guess this answer doesn't really address why this particular pilot did what he did-- why he omitted any rudder input-- lack of recent training, poor training, poor understanding, too much time spent flying maneuvers that only require yoke inputs and not rudder inputs, or ???
$endgroup$
In the long run you want to do three things:
One: immediately arrest the initial yaw ( heading change) toward the bad engine. In the short run you can view the rudder as being the most important control for this purpose, but in the long run other things play important roles (see below).
Two: eliminate all sideslip so a yaw string (if it were present) would be centered. This is accomplished by putting the rudder in the position that almost centers the ball, but not quite. Typically it should be left about half a width toward the good engine. The reason for this is given in a related answer (link to be added.) This ball position should held while turning as well as while flying in a straight line.
Three: adjust the bank angle to eliminate any heading change that may have developed after accomplishing step 2 (unless you are trying to turn.) This may be accomplished with the ailerons. Given the condition established in (two), this will require a slight bank toward the good engine. After all, the slip-skid ball acts like a bubble level (in reverse- so a pendulum really) whenever heading is exactly constant, so it is clear from the ball position what bank angle must be required to hold the heading constant. The reason for this is given in the same related link noted above.
Functionally, the same result arises- at least when the goal is to simply fly in a straight line-- if the pilot uses rudder to hold heading and aileron to set the ball position, but this is really kind of a backwards way of doing things. Just as it is possible to fly blind using a turn rate indicator using the ailerons primarily to control the needle, and the rudder primarily to control the ball, or vice versa. Most would agree that the former is the better way, but both can accomplish the same result, due to feedback loops.
Anyway, anything that prevents the plane from rolling toward the dead engine is a good thing-- once a turn starts, it tends to continue- so adding an aileron input early in the game doesn't necessarily hurt anything and will probably help a least a little bit, even with no rudder input, as long as the aileron design is a style that doesn't create appreciable "adverse yaw".
I guess this answer doesn't really address why this particular pilot did what he did-- why he omitted any rudder input-- lack of recent training, poor training, poor understanding, too much time spent flying maneuvers that only require yoke inputs and not rudder inputs, or ???
edited Jul 29 at 3:43
answered Jul 29 at 2:27
quiet flyerquiet flyer
4,5097 silver badges44 bronze badges
4,5097 silver badges44 bronze badges
$begingroup$
disclaimer - I don't fly twin or multiengine planes
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
Jul 29 at 2:42
add a comment |
$begingroup$
disclaimer - I don't fly twin or multiengine planes
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
Jul 29 at 2:42
$begingroup$
disclaimer - I don't fly twin or multiengine planes
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
Jul 29 at 2:42
$begingroup$
disclaimer - I don't fly twin or multiengine planes
$endgroup$
– quiet flyer
Jul 29 at 2:42
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Aviation Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2faviation.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f67059%2fwhy-would-a-pilot-use-ailerons-for-countering-asymmetric-thrust-in-mid-flight%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown