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Can you open the door or die? v2


Can you open the door or die?A game of Green JackSearching for a secret doorHow many doors are there?The Monty Hall ArenaCan you open the bathroom door?99 chips into more chips99 chips into more chips V233 stones into gold transmuterWhat is the optimal strategy for this triangular board game?Can you open the door or die?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








17












$begingroup$


This is the follow up question to my previous question




You wake up and find yourself in a very strange room with a single
door. You find a note on the ground surrounded by lots of cards:




There are 66 green and 66 blue door cards on the ground. If you put one blue and one green card into the slots next to the door, the door
will open. If you insert two cards of the same color, you will lose a
life! I won't tell you how many lives you have, but you will die if
you lose all of them!




For most people, this could be completed easily. Unfortunately, you
cannot distinguish the color of the cards because you are fully
colorblind! Whoever put you there probably knows this. They
undoubtedly gave you just enough lives for you to be certain you can
get out - if you play their game optimally.




This time you need to put two green cards into the slot to open the door instead of one green and one blue.



so




How many tries do you need to guarantee you open the door?











share|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    I assume we get the cards back if we fail, right?
    $endgroup$
    – Moacir
    Jun 12 at 13:51

















17












$begingroup$


This is the follow up question to my previous question




You wake up and find yourself in a very strange room with a single
door. You find a note on the ground surrounded by lots of cards:




There are 66 green and 66 blue door cards on the ground. If you put one blue and one green card into the slots next to the door, the door
will open. If you insert two cards of the same color, you will lose a
life! I won't tell you how many lives you have, but you will die if
you lose all of them!




For most people, this could be completed easily. Unfortunately, you
cannot distinguish the color of the cards because you are fully
colorblind! Whoever put you there probably knows this. They
undoubtedly gave you just enough lives for you to be certain you can
get out - if you play their game optimally.




This time you need to put two green cards into the slot to open the door instead of one green and one blue.



so




How many tries do you need to guarantee you open the door?











share|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    I assume we get the cards back if we fail, right?
    $endgroup$
    – Moacir
    Jun 12 at 13:51













17












17








17


1



$begingroup$


This is the follow up question to my previous question




You wake up and find yourself in a very strange room with a single
door. You find a note on the ground surrounded by lots of cards:




There are 66 green and 66 blue door cards on the ground. If you put one blue and one green card into the slots next to the door, the door
will open. If you insert two cards of the same color, you will lose a
life! I won't tell you how many lives you have, but you will die if
you lose all of them!




For most people, this could be completed easily. Unfortunately, you
cannot distinguish the color of the cards because you are fully
colorblind! Whoever put you there probably knows this. They
undoubtedly gave you just enough lives for you to be certain you can
get out - if you play their game optimally.




This time you need to put two green cards into the slot to open the door instead of one green and one blue.



so




How many tries do you need to guarantee you open the door?











share|improve this question











$endgroup$




This is the follow up question to my previous question




You wake up and find yourself in a very strange room with a single
door. You find a note on the ground surrounded by lots of cards:




There are 66 green and 66 blue door cards on the ground. If you put one blue and one green card into the slots next to the door, the door
will open. If you insert two cards of the same color, you will lose a
life! I won't tell you how many lives you have, but you will die if
you lose all of them!




For most people, this could be completed easily. Unfortunately, you
cannot distinguish the color of the cards because you are fully
colorblind! Whoever put you there probably knows this. They
undoubtedly gave you just enough lives for you to be certain you can
get out - if you play their game optimally.




This time you need to put two green cards into the slot to open the door instead of one green and one blue.



so




How many tries do you need to guarantee you open the door?








logical-deduction strategy






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Jun 11 at 11:46









Evargalo

3,31511026




3,31511026










asked Jun 11 at 9:51









OrayOray

16.9k439171




16.9k439171











  • $begingroup$
    I assume we get the cards back if we fail, right?
    $endgroup$
    – Moacir
    Jun 12 at 13:51
















  • $begingroup$
    I assume we get the cards back if we fail, right?
    $endgroup$
    – Moacir
    Jun 12 at 13:51















$begingroup$
I assume we get the cards back if we fail, right?
$endgroup$
– Moacir
Jun 12 at 13:51




$begingroup$
I assume we get the cards back if we fail, right?
$endgroup$
– Moacir
Jun 12 at 13:51










6 Answers
6






active

oldest

votes


















22












$begingroup$

It can be done in




69 attempts at most (slight optimisation of athin's answer, but probably still not optimal)




Solution




First, number all the cards 1 to 132. Then compare 1-2, 3-4, etc. up to 125-126 (63 attempts in total). If none of them worked, each of the 63 tested pairs should contain at least 1 blue, so there are at least 63 blues in cards 1-126. That means that the remaining cards 127-132 should contain at most 3 blues and at least 3 greens.

Now, split the remaining 6 cards into 2 groups 127,128,129 and 130,131,132. At least one of the groups should contain 2 greens (since there are at least 3 greens in 127-132). Now, just test all combinations inside the groups (127-128, 127-129, 128-129, 130-131, 130-132 and 131-132 - 6 attempts in total). At least one of them should work, since one of the group contains at least 2 greens.

Grand total: 63+6=69 attempts







share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    well done, this is a bit more complicated answer than mine but it seems right to me :)
    $endgroup$
    – Oray
    Jun 11 at 10:58


















16












$begingroup$

Also not sure whether this is optimal but I can do this in




$70$ tries.




First,




Make $66$ pairs from all cards and put each pair one by one.




In the worst case,




All pairs are not two greens. The only possible thing is that each pair is green-blue.




Finally,




Pick any two pairs. Try all $4$ possibilities by taking one card from the first pair and one from another pair. Therefore we need $66 + 4 = 70$ tries.







share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    this is not optimal, but upvoted.
    $endgroup$
    – Oray
    Jun 11 at 10:34






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    You don't need +4 since you already tried one of the combos in the first round. Therefore 69 maximum tries.
    $endgroup$
    – Paul Evans
    Jun 12 at 14:56







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @PaulEvans we still need +4 as actually there are 6 combinations and 2 are already tried, cmiiw.
    $endgroup$
    – athin
    Jun 12 at 15:43






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Two of those combinations are right, since you have green + blue combinations, so 3 is enough, 66+(4<wrong combinations>-2<already tested>+1<right answer>)=69
    $endgroup$
    – Montolide
    Jun 12 at 19:32






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Montolide Whoopsie, we need green-green to solve this puzzle instead of blue-green
    $endgroup$
    – athin
    Jun 12 at 21:53


















10












$begingroup$

I can prove a lower bound of




$69$ tries.




The first step is to notice that the question is equivalent to




finding an $132$-node graph $G$ with no independent set of size $ge 66$.




The reason is:




1. If we have the graph $G$, then for each edge $(x,y)$ in $G$, we put the $x$-th and $y$-th card into the slot. If we failed then no edge has two green cards as its endpoint, so $66$ green cards induce an independent set of $G$.




and




2. If we have a strategy to win the game, then the strategy must be nonadaptive, since we don't gain any information from each failure to choose two green cards. That is, the strategy of each step is already determined before the game gets played. If the $i$-th step is to test card $a_i$ and card $b_i$, we insert edge $(a_i,b_i)$ into $G$. If $G$ has a size-$66$ independent set, our strategy would be invalid when this set of cards are green.




Then we observe




$G$ must contain an odd cycle. Because otherwise $G$ is a bipartite graph which always have an independent set of size $ge frac1322=66$.




and




If $G$ has $C$ connected components, then $G$ has at least $133-C$ edges. For an arbitrary graph $G'$, if it has $C'$ components and $V'$ vertices, then it has at least $V'-C'$ edges, so we infer that $G$ has at least $132-C$ edges. However as we demonstrated above, $G$ has a cycle, and deleting an edge from that cycle doesn't change the number of its components. So we conclude $G$ has $ge (132-C)+1$ edges.




So there are a few cases. If




$Cge 66$, then we can take any vertex from a component to form an independent set of size $C$. This is invalid;




If




$Cle 64$, then $G$ has $ge 133-64=69$ edges;




If




$C=65$, then every component must be a clique: if some component is not a clique, we can take two vertices from it and one vertex from every other component and still form an independent set (of size $C+1$). Now let $a_1,a_2,dots,a_65$ be the number of vertices in each component, then $sum_i=1^65a_i=132$ and the number of edges is $E=sum_i=1^65fraca_i(a_i-1)2$. Even if we allow $a_i$'s be real numbers (instead of integers), the minimum of $E$ is reached when each $a_i=a=132/65$, and $E=65cdot fraca(a-1)2approx 68.03$. Therefore $69$ edges are needed in this case. (We note that this corresponds to @trolley813's answer, and optimal integer solution is that each $a_i$ is $2$ except two of them are $3$.)







share|improve this answer











$endgroup$




















    2












    $begingroup$

    A completely sideways answer - but possibly only one try...



    Here you need to cheat a little, and cause yourself some sort of injury to get some blood - smear some of that blood on one card, and then another - keep doing this until you find two that have different shades.




    (see other answers for how many of them you may need to check, however if you keep one card and swap the other every time then that's 66 tries - every single card of one colour, and a single card of the other).




    The red "filter" cannot restore invisible (to you) colour, but it can hide some of the colour that's already there, so allowing you to see a difference in shade between the two different coloured cards.



    Of course, the fiendish person setting this trap may have already thought of this and ensured they used specific pigments that don't work with this filtering - but they might not want to reuse this trap if they come in and find it looks like a scene from a horror movie...






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$




















      1












      $begingroup$

      Not sure if this is optimal, but:




      Take a set of 3 cards. Try the 3 combinations of pairs of cards (3 tries). If they all fail, at least 2 cards must be blue. Discard all 3.




      Then worst case, after




      33 sets of 3, you've discarded all the blue cards




      So you're guaranteed to find two green on your




      100th attempt







      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$








      • 3




        $begingroup$
        Then it doesn't work!! Thanks for pointing pointing that out
        $endgroup$
        – Mohirl
        Jun 11 at 10:11



















      0












      $begingroup$

      The lower bound should be




      This solution was for v1 problem. I wrote this one by mistake. Ill try the v2 problem.







      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        You can delete and undelete your answer whenever you like. Probably best to in order to avoid downvotes.
        $endgroup$
        – wizzwizz4
        Jun 13 at 13:40









      protected by Community Jun 12 at 8:47



      Thank you for your interest in this question.
      Because it has attracted low-quality or spam answers that had to be removed, posting an answer now requires 10 reputation on this site (the association bonus does not count).



      Would you like to answer one of these unanswered questions instead?














      6 Answers
      6






      active

      oldest

      votes








      6 Answers
      6






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      22












      $begingroup$

      It can be done in




      69 attempts at most (slight optimisation of athin's answer, but probably still not optimal)




      Solution




      First, number all the cards 1 to 132. Then compare 1-2, 3-4, etc. up to 125-126 (63 attempts in total). If none of them worked, each of the 63 tested pairs should contain at least 1 blue, so there are at least 63 blues in cards 1-126. That means that the remaining cards 127-132 should contain at most 3 blues and at least 3 greens.

      Now, split the remaining 6 cards into 2 groups 127,128,129 and 130,131,132. At least one of the groups should contain 2 greens (since there are at least 3 greens in 127-132). Now, just test all combinations inside the groups (127-128, 127-129, 128-129, 130-131, 130-132 and 131-132 - 6 attempts in total). At least one of them should work, since one of the group contains at least 2 greens.

      Grand total: 63+6=69 attempts







      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$








      • 2




        $begingroup$
        well done, this is a bit more complicated answer than mine but it seems right to me :)
        $endgroup$
        – Oray
        Jun 11 at 10:58















      22












      $begingroup$

      It can be done in




      69 attempts at most (slight optimisation of athin's answer, but probably still not optimal)




      Solution




      First, number all the cards 1 to 132. Then compare 1-2, 3-4, etc. up to 125-126 (63 attempts in total). If none of them worked, each of the 63 tested pairs should contain at least 1 blue, so there are at least 63 blues in cards 1-126. That means that the remaining cards 127-132 should contain at most 3 blues and at least 3 greens.

      Now, split the remaining 6 cards into 2 groups 127,128,129 and 130,131,132. At least one of the groups should contain 2 greens (since there are at least 3 greens in 127-132). Now, just test all combinations inside the groups (127-128, 127-129, 128-129, 130-131, 130-132 and 131-132 - 6 attempts in total). At least one of them should work, since one of the group contains at least 2 greens.

      Grand total: 63+6=69 attempts







      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$








      • 2




        $begingroup$
        well done, this is a bit more complicated answer than mine but it seems right to me :)
        $endgroup$
        – Oray
        Jun 11 at 10:58













      22












      22








      22





      $begingroup$

      It can be done in




      69 attempts at most (slight optimisation of athin's answer, but probably still not optimal)




      Solution




      First, number all the cards 1 to 132. Then compare 1-2, 3-4, etc. up to 125-126 (63 attempts in total). If none of them worked, each of the 63 tested pairs should contain at least 1 blue, so there are at least 63 blues in cards 1-126. That means that the remaining cards 127-132 should contain at most 3 blues and at least 3 greens.

      Now, split the remaining 6 cards into 2 groups 127,128,129 and 130,131,132. At least one of the groups should contain 2 greens (since there are at least 3 greens in 127-132). Now, just test all combinations inside the groups (127-128, 127-129, 128-129, 130-131, 130-132 and 131-132 - 6 attempts in total). At least one of them should work, since one of the group contains at least 2 greens.

      Grand total: 63+6=69 attempts







      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      It can be done in




      69 attempts at most (slight optimisation of athin's answer, but probably still not optimal)




      Solution




      First, number all the cards 1 to 132. Then compare 1-2, 3-4, etc. up to 125-126 (63 attempts in total). If none of them worked, each of the 63 tested pairs should contain at least 1 blue, so there are at least 63 blues in cards 1-126. That means that the remaining cards 127-132 should contain at most 3 blues and at least 3 greens.

      Now, split the remaining 6 cards into 2 groups 127,128,129 and 130,131,132. At least one of the groups should contain 2 greens (since there are at least 3 greens in 127-132). Now, just test all combinations inside the groups (127-128, 127-129, 128-129, 130-131, 130-132 and 131-132 - 6 attempts in total). At least one of them should work, since one of the group contains at least 2 greens.

      Grand total: 63+6=69 attempts








      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered Jun 11 at 10:44









      trolley813trolley813

      2,067515




      2,067515







      • 2




        $begingroup$
        well done, this is a bit more complicated answer than mine but it seems right to me :)
        $endgroup$
        – Oray
        Jun 11 at 10:58












      • 2




        $begingroup$
        well done, this is a bit more complicated answer than mine but it seems right to me :)
        $endgroup$
        – Oray
        Jun 11 at 10:58







      2




      2




      $begingroup$
      well done, this is a bit more complicated answer than mine but it seems right to me :)
      $endgroup$
      – Oray
      Jun 11 at 10:58




      $begingroup$
      well done, this is a bit more complicated answer than mine but it seems right to me :)
      $endgroup$
      – Oray
      Jun 11 at 10:58













      16












      $begingroup$

      Also not sure whether this is optimal but I can do this in




      $70$ tries.




      First,




      Make $66$ pairs from all cards and put each pair one by one.




      In the worst case,




      All pairs are not two greens. The only possible thing is that each pair is green-blue.




      Finally,




      Pick any two pairs. Try all $4$ possibilities by taking one card from the first pair and one from another pair. Therefore we need $66 + 4 = 70$ tries.







      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        this is not optimal, but upvoted.
        $endgroup$
        – Oray
        Jun 11 at 10:34






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        You don't need +4 since you already tried one of the combos in the first round. Therefore 69 maximum tries.
        $endgroup$
        – Paul Evans
        Jun 12 at 14:56







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @PaulEvans we still need +4 as actually there are 6 combinations and 2 are already tried, cmiiw.
        $endgroup$
        – athin
        Jun 12 at 15:43






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Two of those combinations are right, since you have green + blue combinations, so 3 is enough, 66+(4<wrong combinations>-2<already tested>+1<right answer>)=69
        $endgroup$
        – Montolide
        Jun 12 at 19:32






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Montolide Whoopsie, we need green-green to solve this puzzle instead of blue-green
        $endgroup$
        – athin
        Jun 12 at 21:53















      16












      $begingroup$

      Also not sure whether this is optimal but I can do this in




      $70$ tries.




      First,




      Make $66$ pairs from all cards and put each pair one by one.




      In the worst case,




      All pairs are not two greens. The only possible thing is that each pair is green-blue.




      Finally,




      Pick any two pairs. Try all $4$ possibilities by taking one card from the first pair and one from another pair. Therefore we need $66 + 4 = 70$ tries.







      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        this is not optimal, but upvoted.
        $endgroup$
        – Oray
        Jun 11 at 10:34






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        You don't need +4 since you already tried one of the combos in the first round. Therefore 69 maximum tries.
        $endgroup$
        – Paul Evans
        Jun 12 at 14:56







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @PaulEvans we still need +4 as actually there are 6 combinations and 2 are already tried, cmiiw.
        $endgroup$
        – athin
        Jun 12 at 15:43






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Two of those combinations are right, since you have green + blue combinations, so 3 is enough, 66+(4<wrong combinations>-2<already tested>+1<right answer>)=69
        $endgroup$
        – Montolide
        Jun 12 at 19:32






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Montolide Whoopsie, we need green-green to solve this puzzle instead of blue-green
        $endgroup$
        – athin
        Jun 12 at 21:53













      16












      16








      16





      $begingroup$

      Also not sure whether this is optimal but I can do this in




      $70$ tries.




      First,




      Make $66$ pairs from all cards and put each pair one by one.




      In the worst case,




      All pairs are not two greens. The only possible thing is that each pair is green-blue.




      Finally,




      Pick any two pairs. Try all $4$ possibilities by taking one card from the first pair and one from another pair. Therefore we need $66 + 4 = 70$ tries.







      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      Also not sure whether this is optimal but I can do this in




      $70$ tries.




      First,




      Make $66$ pairs from all cards and put each pair one by one.




      In the worst case,




      All pairs are not two greens. The only possible thing is that each pair is green-blue.




      Finally,




      Pick any two pairs. Try all $4$ possibilities by taking one card from the first pair and one from another pair. Therefore we need $66 + 4 = 70$ tries.








      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered Jun 11 at 10:18









      athinathin

      11.4k23896




      11.4k23896











      • $begingroup$
        this is not optimal, but upvoted.
        $endgroup$
        – Oray
        Jun 11 at 10:34






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        You don't need +4 since you already tried one of the combos in the first round. Therefore 69 maximum tries.
        $endgroup$
        – Paul Evans
        Jun 12 at 14:56







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @PaulEvans we still need +4 as actually there are 6 combinations and 2 are already tried, cmiiw.
        $endgroup$
        – athin
        Jun 12 at 15:43






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Two of those combinations are right, since you have green + blue combinations, so 3 is enough, 66+(4<wrong combinations>-2<already tested>+1<right answer>)=69
        $endgroup$
        – Montolide
        Jun 12 at 19:32






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Montolide Whoopsie, we need green-green to solve this puzzle instead of blue-green
        $endgroup$
        – athin
        Jun 12 at 21:53
















      • $begingroup$
        this is not optimal, but upvoted.
        $endgroup$
        – Oray
        Jun 11 at 10:34






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        You don't need +4 since you already tried one of the combos in the first round. Therefore 69 maximum tries.
        $endgroup$
        – Paul Evans
        Jun 12 at 14:56







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @PaulEvans we still need +4 as actually there are 6 combinations and 2 are already tried, cmiiw.
        $endgroup$
        – athin
        Jun 12 at 15:43






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Two of those combinations are right, since you have green + blue combinations, so 3 is enough, 66+(4<wrong combinations>-2<already tested>+1<right answer>)=69
        $endgroup$
        – Montolide
        Jun 12 at 19:32






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Montolide Whoopsie, we need green-green to solve this puzzle instead of blue-green
        $endgroup$
        – athin
        Jun 12 at 21:53















      $begingroup$
      this is not optimal, but upvoted.
      $endgroup$
      – Oray
      Jun 11 at 10:34




      $begingroup$
      this is not optimal, but upvoted.
      $endgroup$
      – Oray
      Jun 11 at 10:34




      2




      2




      $begingroup$
      You don't need +4 since you already tried one of the combos in the first round. Therefore 69 maximum tries.
      $endgroup$
      – Paul Evans
      Jun 12 at 14:56





      $begingroup$
      You don't need +4 since you already tried one of the combos in the first round. Therefore 69 maximum tries.
      $endgroup$
      – Paul Evans
      Jun 12 at 14:56





      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      @PaulEvans we still need +4 as actually there are 6 combinations and 2 are already tried, cmiiw.
      $endgroup$
      – athin
      Jun 12 at 15:43




      $begingroup$
      @PaulEvans we still need +4 as actually there are 6 combinations and 2 are already tried, cmiiw.
      $endgroup$
      – athin
      Jun 12 at 15:43




      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      Two of those combinations are right, since you have green + blue combinations, so 3 is enough, 66+(4<wrong combinations>-2<already tested>+1<right answer>)=69
      $endgroup$
      – Montolide
      Jun 12 at 19:32




      $begingroup$
      Two of those combinations are right, since you have green + blue combinations, so 3 is enough, 66+(4<wrong combinations>-2<already tested>+1<right answer>)=69
      $endgroup$
      – Montolide
      Jun 12 at 19:32




      2




      2




      $begingroup$
      @Montolide Whoopsie, we need green-green to solve this puzzle instead of blue-green
      $endgroup$
      – athin
      Jun 12 at 21:53




      $begingroup$
      @Montolide Whoopsie, we need green-green to solve this puzzle instead of blue-green
      $endgroup$
      – athin
      Jun 12 at 21:53











      10












      $begingroup$

      I can prove a lower bound of




      $69$ tries.




      The first step is to notice that the question is equivalent to




      finding an $132$-node graph $G$ with no independent set of size $ge 66$.




      The reason is:




      1. If we have the graph $G$, then for each edge $(x,y)$ in $G$, we put the $x$-th and $y$-th card into the slot. If we failed then no edge has two green cards as its endpoint, so $66$ green cards induce an independent set of $G$.




      and




      2. If we have a strategy to win the game, then the strategy must be nonadaptive, since we don't gain any information from each failure to choose two green cards. That is, the strategy of each step is already determined before the game gets played. If the $i$-th step is to test card $a_i$ and card $b_i$, we insert edge $(a_i,b_i)$ into $G$. If $G$ has a size-$66$ independent set, our strategy would be invalid when this set of cards are green.




      Then we observe




      $G$ must contain an odd cycle. Because otherwise $G$ is a bipartite graph which always have an independent set of size $ge frac1322=66$.




      and




      If $G$ has $C$ connected components, then $G$ has at least $133-C$ edges. For an arbitrary graph $G'$, if it has $C'$ components and $V'$ vertices, then it has at least $V'-C'$ edges, so we infer that $G$ has at least $132-C$ edges. However as we demonstrated above, $G$ has a cycle, and deleting an edge from that cycle doesn't change the number of its components. So we conclude $G$ has $ge (132-C)+1$ edges.




      So there are a few cases. If




      $Cge 66$, then we can take any vertex from a component to form an independent set of size $C$. This is invalid;




      If




      $Cle 64$, then $G$ has $ge 133-64=69$ edges;




      If




      $C=65$, then every component must be a clique: if some component is not a clique, we can take two vertices from it and one vertex from every other component and still form an independent set (of size $C+1$). Now let $a_1,a_2,dots,a_65$ be the number of vertices in each component, then $sum_i=1^65a_i=132$ and the number of edges is $E=sum_i=1^65fraca_i(a_i-1)2$. Even if we allow $a_i$'s be real numbers (instead of integers), the minimum of $E$ is reached when each $a_i=a=132/65$, and $E=65cdot fraca(a-1)2approx 68.03$. Therefore $69$ edges are needed in this case. (We note that this corresponds to @trolley813's answer, and optimal integer solution is that each $a_i$ is $2$ except two of them are $3$.)







      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$

















        10












        $begingroup$

        I can prove a lower bound of




        $69$ tries.




        The first step is to notice that the question is equivalent to




        finding an $132$-node graph $G$ with no independent set of size $ge 66$.




        The reason is:




        1. If we have the graph $G$, then for each edge $(x,y)$ in $G$, we put the $x$-th and $y$-th card into the slot. If we failed then no edge has two green cards as its endpoint, so $66$ green cards induce an independent set of $G$.




        and




        2. If we have a strategy to win the game, then the strategy must be nonadaptive, since we don't gain any information from each failure to choose two green cards. That is, the strategy of each step is already determined before the game gets played. If the $i$-th step is to test card $a_i$ and card $b_i$, we insert edge $(a_i,b_i)$ into $G$. If $G$ has a size-$66$ independent set, our strategy would be invalid when this set of cards are green.




        Then we observe




        $G$ must contain an odd cycle. Because otherwise $G$ is a bipartite graph which always have an independent set of size $ge frac1322=66$.




        and




        If $G$ has $C$ connected components, then $G$ has at least $133-C$ edges. For an arbitrary graph $G'$, if it has $C'$ components and $V'$ vertices, then it has at least $V'-C'$ edges, so we infer that $G$ has at least $132-C$ edges. However as we demonstrated above, $G$ has a cycle, and deleting an edge from that cycle doesn't change the number of its components. So we conclude $G$ has $ge (132-C)+1$ edges.




        So there are a few cases. If




        $Cge 66$, then we can take any vertex from a component to form an independent set of size $C$. This is invalid;




        If




        $Cle 64$, then $G$ has $ge 133-64=69$ edges;




        If




        $C=65$, then every component must be a clique: if some component is not a clique, we can take two vertices from it and one vertex from every other component and still form an independent set (of size $C+1$). Now let $a_1,a_2,dots,a_65$ be the number of vertices in each component, then $sum_i=1^65a_i=132$ and the number of edges is $E=sum_i=1^65fraca_i(a_i-1)2$. Even if we allow $a_i$'s be real numbers (instead of integers), the minimum of $E$ is reached when each $a_i=a=132/65$, and $E=65cdot fraca(a-1)2approx 68.03$. Therefore $69$ edges are needed in this case. (We note that this corresponds to @trolley813's answer, and optimal integer solution is that each $a_i$ is $2$ except two of them are $3$.)







        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$















          10












          10








          10





          $begingroup$

          I can prove a lower bound of




          $69$ tries.




          The first step is to notice that the question is equivalent to




          finding an $132$-node graph $G$ with no independent set of size $ge 66$.




          The reason is:




          1. If we have the graph $G$, then for each edge $(x,y)$ in $G$, we put the $x$-th and $y$-th card into the slot. If we failed then no edge has two green cards as its endpoint, so $66$ green cards induce an independent set of $G$.




          and




          2. If we have a strategy to win the game, then the strategy must be nonadaptive, since we don't gain any information from each failure to choose two green cards. That is, the strategy of each step is already determined before the game gets played. If the $i$-th step is to test card $a_i$ and card $b_i$, we insert edge $(a_i,b_i)$ into $G$. If $G$ has a size-$66$ independent set, our strategy would be invalid when this set of cards are green.




          Then we observe




          $G$ must contain an odd cycle. Because otherwise $G$ is a bipartite graph which always have an independent set of size $ge frac1322=66$.




          and




          If $G$ has $C$ connected components, then $G$ has at least $133-C$ edges. For an arbitrary graph $G'$, if it has $C'$ components and $V'$ vertices, then it has at least $V'-C'$ edges, so we infer that $G$ has at least $132-C$ edges. However as we demonstrated above, $G$ has a cycle, and deleting an edge from that cycle doesn't change the number of its components. So we conclude $G$ has $ge (132-C)+1$ edges.




          So there are a few cases. If




          $Cge 66$, then we can take any vertex from a component to form an independent set of size $C$. This is invalid;




          If




          $Cle 64$, then $G$ has $ge 133-64=69$ edges;




          If




          $C=65$, then every component must be a clique: if some component is not a clique, we can take two vertices from it and one vertex from every other component and still form an independent set (of size $C+1$). Now let $a_1,a_2,dots,a_65$ be the number of vertices in each component, then $sum_i=1^65a_i=132$ and the number of edges is $E=sum_i=1^65fraca_i(a_i-1)2$. Even if we allow $a_i$'s be real numbers (instead of integers), the minimum of $E$ is reached when each $a_i=a=132/65$, and $E=65cdot fraca(a-1)2approx 68.03$. Therefore $69$ edges are needed in this case. (We note that this corresponds to @trolley813's answer, and optimal integer solution is that each $a_i$ is $2$ except two of them are $3$.)







          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          I can prove a lower bound of




          $69$ tries.




          The first step is to notice that the question is equivalent to




          finding an $132$-node graph $G$ with no independent set of size $ge 66$.




          The reason is:




          1. If we have the graph $G$, then for each edge $(x,y)$ in $G$, we put the $x$-th and $y$-th card into the slot. If we failed then no edge has two green cards as its endpoint, so $66$ green cards induce an independent set of $G$.




          and




          2. If we have a strategy to win the game, then the strategy must be nonadaptive, since we don't gain any information from each failure to choose two green cards. That is, the strategy of each step is already determined before the game gets played. If the $i$-th step is to test card $a_i$ and card $b_i$, we insert edge $(a_i,b_i)$ into $G$. If $G$ has a size-$66$ independent set, our strategy would be invalid when this set of cards are green.




          Then we observe




          $G$ must contain an odd cycle. Because otherwise $G$ is a bipartite graph which always have an independent set of size $ge frac1322=66$.




          and




          If $G$ has $C$ connected components, then $G$ has at least $133-C$ edges. For an arbitrary graph $G'$, if it has $C'$ components and $V'$ vertices, then it has at least $V'-C'$ edges, so we infer that $G$ has at least $132-C$ edges. However as we demonstrated above, $G$ has a cycle, and deleting an edge from that cycle doesn't change the number of its components. So we conclude $G$ has $ge (132-C)+1$ edges.




          So there are a few cases. If




          $Cge 66$, then we can take any vertex from a component to form an independent set of size $C$. This is invalid;




          If




          $Cle 64$, then $G$ has $ge 133-64=69$ edges;




          If




          $C=65$, then every component must be a clique: if some component is not a clique, we can take two vertices from it and one vertex from every other component and still form an independent set (of size $C+1$). Now let $a_1,a_2,dots,a_65$ be the number of vertices in each component, then $sum_i=1^65a_i=132$ and the number of edges is $E=sum_i=1^65fraca_i(a_i-1)2$. Even if we allow $a_i$'s be real numbers (instead of integers), the minimum of $E$ is reached when each $a_i=a=132/65$, and $E=65cdot fraca(a-1)2approx 68.03$. Therefore $69$ edges are needed in this case. (We note that this corresponds to @trolley813's answer, and optimal integer solution is that each $a_i$ is $2$ except two of them are $3$.)








          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited Jun 12 at 7:48

























          answered Jun 12 at 5:54









          r_64r_64

          3364




          3364





















              2












              $begingroup$

              A completely sideways answer - but possibly only one try...



              Here you need to cheat a little, and cause yourself some sort of injury to get some blood - smear some of that blood on one card, and then another - keep doing this until you find two that have different shades.




              (see other answers for how many of them you may need to check, however if you keep one card and swap the other every time then that's 66 tries - every single card of one colour, and a single card of the other).




              The red "filter" cannot restore invisible (to you) colour, but it can hide some of the colour that's already there, so allowing you to see a difference in shade between the two different coloured cards.



              Of course, the fiendish person setting this trap may have already thought of this and ensured they used specific pigments that don't work with this filtering - but they might not want to reuse this trap if they come in and find it looks like a scene from a horror movie...






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$

















                2












                $begingroup$

                A completely sideways answer - but possibly only one try...



                Here you need to cheat a little, and cause yourself some sort of injury to get some blood - smear some of that blood on one card, and then another - keep doing this until you find two that have different shades.




                (see other answers for how many of them you may need to check, however if you keep one card and swap the other every time then that's 66 tries - every single card of one colour, and a single card of the other).




                The red "filter" cannot restore invisible (to you) colour, but it can hide some of the colour that's already there, so allowing you to see a difference in shade between the two different coloured cards.



                Of course, the fiendish person setting this trap may have already thought of this and ensured they used specific pigments that don't work with this filtering - but they might not want to reuse this trap if they come in and find it looks like a scene from a horror movie...






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$















                  2












                  2








                  2





                  $begingroup$

                  A completely sideways answer - but possibly only one try...



                  Here you need to cheat a little, and cause yourself some sort of injury to get some blood - smear some of that blood on one card, and then another - keep doing this until you find two that have different shades.




                  (see other answers for how many of them you may need to check, however if you keep one card and swap the other every time then that's 66 tries - every single card of one colour, and a single card of the other).




                  The red "filter" cannot restore invisible (to you) colour, but it can hide some of the colour that's already there, so allowing you to see a difference in shade between the two different coloured cards.



                  Of course, the fiendish person setting this trap may have already thought of this and ensured they used specific pigments that don't work with this filtering - but they might not want to reuse this trap if they come in and find it looks like a scene from a horror movie...






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  A completely sideways answer - but possibly only one try...



                  Here you need to cheat a little, and cause yourself some sort of injury to get some blood - smear some of that blood on one card, and then another - keep doing this until you find two that have different shades.




                  (see other answers for how many of them you may need to check, however if you keep one card and swap the other every time then that's 66 tries - every single card of one colour, and a single card of the other).




                  The red "filter" cannot restore invisible (to you) colour, but it can hide some of the colour that's already there, so allowing you to see a difference in shade between the two different coloured cards.



                  Of course, the fiendish person setting this trap may have already thought of this and ensured they used specific pigments that don't work with this filtering - but they might not want to reuse this trap if they come in and find it looks like a scene from a horror movie...







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered Jun 13 at 13:21









                  RycochetRycochet

                  21113




                  21113





















                      1












                      $begingroup$

                      Not sure if this is optimal, but:




                      Take a set of 3 cards. Try the 3 combinations of pairs of cards (3 tries). If they all fail, at least 2 cards must be blue. Discard all 3.




                      Then worst case, after




                      33 sets of 3, you've discarded all the blue cards




                      So you're guaranteed to find two green on your




                      100th attempt







                      share|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$








                      • 3




                        $begingroup$
                        Then it doesn't work!! Thanks for pointing pointing that out
                        $endgroup$
                        – Mohirl
                        Jun 11 at 10:11
















                      1












                      $begingroup$

                      Not sure if this is optimal, but:




                      Take a set of 3 cards. Try the 3 combinations of pairs of cards (3 tries). If they all fail, at least 2 cards must be blue. Discard all 3.




                      Then worst case, after




                      33 sets of 3, you've discarded all the blue cards




                      So you're guaranteed to find two green on your




                      100th attempt







                      share|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$








                      • 3




                        $begingroup$
                        Then it doesn't work!! Thanks for pointing pointing that out
                        $endgroup$
                        – Mohirl
                        Jun 11 at 10:11














                      1












                      1








                      1





                      $begingroup$

                      Not sure if this is optimal, but:




                      Take a set of 3 cards. Try the 3 combinations of pairs of cards (3 tries). If they all fail, at least 2 cards must be blue. Discard all 3.




                      Then worst case, after




                      33 sets of 3, you've discarded all the blue cards




                      So you're guaranteed to find two green on your




                      100th attempt







                      share|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$



                      Not sure if this is optimal, but:




                      Take a set of 3 cards. Try the 3 combinations of pairs of cards (3 tries). If they all fail, at least 2 cards must be blue. Discard all 3.




                      Then worst case, after




                      33 sets of 3, you've discarded all the blue cards




                      So you're guaranteed to find two green on your




                      100th attempt








                      share|improve this answer














                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited Jun 11 at 10:13

























                      answered Jun 11 at 10:04









                      MohirlMohirl

                      2,577719




                      2,577719







                      • 3




                        $begingroup$
                        Then it doesn't work!! Thanks for pointing pointing that out
                        $endgroup$
                        – Mohirl
                        Jun 11 at 10:11













                      • 3




                        $begingroup$
                        Then it doesn't work!! Thanks for pointing pointing that out
                        $endgroup$
                        – Mohirl
                        Jun 11 at 10:11








                      3




                      3




                      $begingroup$
                      Then it doesn't work!! Thanks for pointing pointing that out
                      $endgroup$
                      – Mohirl
                      Jun 11 at 10:11





                      $begingroup$
                      Then it doesn't work!! Thanks for pointing pointing that out
                      $endgroup$
                      – Mohirl
                      Jun 11 at 10:11












                      0












                      $begingroup$

                      The lower bound should be




                      This solution was for v1 problem. I wrote this one by mistake. Ill try the v2 problem.







                      share|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$












                      • $begingroup$
                        You can delete and undelete your answer whenever you like. Probably best to in order to avoid downvotes.
                        $endgroup$
                        – wizzwizz4
                        Jun 13 at 13:40















                      0












                      $begingroup$

                      The lower bound should be




                      This solution was for v1 problem. I wrote this one by mistake. Ill try the v2 problem.







                      share|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$












                      • $begingroup$
                        You can delete and undelete your answer whenever you like. Probably best to in order to avoid downvotes.
                        $endgroup$
                        – wizzwizz4
                        Jun 13 at 13:40













                      0












                      0








                      0





                      $begingroup$

                      The lower bound should be




                      This solution was for v1 problem. I wrote this one by mistake. Ill try the v2 problem.







                      share|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$



                      The lower bound should be




                      This solution was for v1 problem. I wrote this one by mistake. Ill try the v2 problem.








                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered Jun 12 at 6:35









                      Venkateshwara RaoVenkateshwara Rao

                      11




                      11











                      • $begingroup$
                        You can delete and undelete your answer whenever you like. Probably best to in order to avoid downvotes.
                        $endgroup$
                        – wizzwizz4
                        Jun 13 at 13:40
















                      • $begingroup$
                        You can delete and undelete your answer whenever you like. Probably best to in order to avoid downvotes.
                        $endgroup$
                        – wizzwizz4
                        Jun 13 at 13:40















                      $begingroup$
                      You can delete and undelete your answer whenever you like. Probably best to in order to avoid downvotes.
                      $endgroup$
                      – wizzwizz4
                      Jun 13 at 13:40




                      $begingroup$
                      You can delete and undelete your answer whenever you like. Probably best to in order to avoid downvotes.
                      $endgroup$
                      – wizzwizz4
                      Jun 13 at 13:40





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