Effect of palatalization on a consonant before иEnglish expressions like “Шла Саша по шоссе и сосала сушку”, “Мама мыла мою малину”Inconsistencies books pronunciationCorrect pronounciation of vowels and soft/hard consonants“Критический”: How should it be prounounced?Where does the sound “йи” / iotated и / [ji] occur in Russian?Pronunciation of Ч before РPronouncing the letter “е”Pairs of words differing only in a soft signWhat are the pronunciation errors in this short story rendition?Why is the Russian informal phone greeting “алё” equivalent to the Turkish one?

Having some issue with notation in a Hilbert space

How does the Linux command "mount -a" work?

Testing thermite for chemical properties

Interview was just a one hour panel. Got an offer the next day; do I accept or is this a red flag?

On George Box, Galit Shmueli and the scientific method?

How can I maintain game balance while allowing my player to craft genuinely useful items?

How "fast" does astronomical events happen?

What kind of chart is this?

What is the precise meaning of "подсел на мак"?

Is there any effect in D&D 5e that cannot be undone?

What is the color associated with lukewarm?

What could be the physiological mechanism for a biological Geiger counter?

Are there any super-powered aliens in the Marvel universe?

Like a Baby - Riddle

Does knowing the surface area of all faces uniquely determine a tetrahedron?

What do I put on my resume to make the company i'm applying to think i'm mature enough to handle a job?

Print the phrase "And she said, 'But that's his.'" using only the alphabet

Is swap gate equivalent to just exchanging the wire of the two qubits?

Have Steve Rogers (Captain America) and a young Erik Lehnsherr (Magneto) interacted during WWII?

How can Caller ID be faked?

Is the infant mortality rate among African-American babies in Youngstown, Ohio greater than that of babies in Iran?

Why are almost all the people in this orchestra recording wearing headphones with one ear on and one ear off?

Does anyone recognize these rockets, and their location?

How did the European Union reach the figure of 3% as a maximum allowed deficit?



Effect of palatalization on a consonant before и


English expressions like “Шла Саша по шоссе и сосала сушку”, “Мама мыла мою малину”Inconsistencies books pronunciationCorrect pronounciation of vowels and soft/hard consonants“Критический”: How should it be prounounced?Where does the sound “йи” / iotated и / [ji] occur in Russian?Pronunciation of Ч before РPronouncing the letter “е”Pairs of words differing only in a soft signWhat are the pronunciation errors in this short story rendition?Why is the Russian informal phone greeting “алё” equivalent to the Turkish one?













2















I have been studying the different effects that happen to vowels when a preceding consonant becomes palatalized and i am having trouble figuring out the exact sound of и when there is a palatalized consonant preceeding it.



Examples: клавиатура and биржа , for both of these words they have the same IPA in the area of the и, yet sound completely different. Биржа = hard ee and клавиатура , soft e that sounds like клавеатура



IPA of each :
https://ru.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/клавиатура



https://ru.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/биржа



IPA System:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Russian










share|improve this question
























  • I have just found out that they do not have the same IPA but for клавиатура i cannot find the thing they put for the I in the IPA system

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 3:52















2















I have been studying the different effects that happen to vowels when a preceding consonant becomes palatalized and i am having trouble figuring out the exact sound of и when there is a palatalized consonant preceeding it.



Examples: клавиатура and биржа , for both of these words they have the same IPA in the area of the и, yet sound completely different. Биржа = hard ee and клавиатура , soft e that sounds like клавеатура



IPA of each :
https://ru.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/клавиатура



https://ru.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/биржа



IPA System:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Russian










share|improve this question
























  • I have just found out that they do not have the same IPA but for клавиатура i cannot find the thing they put for the I in the IPA system

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 3:52













2












2








2








I have been studying the different effects that happen to vowels when a preceding consonant becomes palatalized and i am having trouble figuring out the exact sound of и when there is a palatalized consonant preceeding it.



Examples: клавиатура and биржа , for both of these words they have the same IPA in the area of the и, yet sound completely different. Биржа = hard ee and клавиатура , soft e that sounds like клавеатура



IPA of each :
https://ru.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/клавиатура



https://ru.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/биржа



IPA System:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Russian










share|improve this question
















I have been studying the different effects that happen to vowels when a preceding consonant becomes palatalized and i am having trouble figuring out the exact sound of и when there is a palatalized consonant preceeding it.



Examples: клавиатура and биржа , for both of these words they have the same IPA in the area of the и, yet sound completely different. Биржа = hard ee and клавиатура , soft e that sounds like клавеатура



IPA of each :
https://ru.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/клавиатура



https://ru.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/биржа



IPA System:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Russian







произношение






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Jun 9 at 3:51







Almonds812

















asked Jun 9 at 3:42









Almonds812Almonds812

5368




5368












  • I have just found out that they do not have the same IPA but for клавиатура i cannot find the thing they put for the I in the IPA system

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 3:52

















  • I have just found out that they do not have the same IPA but for клавиатура i cannot find the thing they put for the I in the IPA system

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 3:52
















I have just found out that they do not have the same IPA but for клавиатура i cannot find the thing they put for the I in the IPA system

– Almonds812
Jun 9 at 3:52





I have just found out that they do not have the same IPA but for клавиатура i cannot find the thing they put for the I in the IPA system

– Almonds812
Jun 9 at 3:52










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















2














Strictly formally



in биржа [и] sounds like it does in beer.



in клавиатура [и] sounds like it does in video.



The difference you perceive might stem from the vowel's being unstressed. In two these words one is stressed while another isn't.



Technically in isolation they sound identically. But without stress vowels tend to get reduced so their pronunciation is less distinct. The only formal rule for reduction of [и] in unstressed position deals with its reduction into [ы] which doesn't apply here.



I will agree that in клавиатура [и] gravitates towards [иэ] and in fact this is a syllable susceptible to mistake in writing of elementary and middle school children. Google lists 18,700 occurrances of клавЕатура.



It lists Бержа as well but almost exlusively capitalized and not in the sense of stock exchange.






share|improve this answer

























  • So what is the rule here? If и is stressed ee and if not it will sound somewhat like ы/i

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 7:16











  • @Almonds812 there's no rule for this specific case, i guess you don't need to focus on unstressed И too much, making sure you get the stressed part correctly, but at the same time keeping in mind that it's И and not E or Э... and you may have misread my remark, the reduction into Ы does not apply here, it's for other cases

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 7:49











  • So its correct that a stressed и is always ee?

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 7:50











  • And unstressed is just some mix inbetween?

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 7:50











  • @Almonds812 yes, i think that's the right way to look at it

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 7:52


















2














The vowel sounds in Russian words get reduced depending on their position in relation to the stressed vowel. Here, 3 different positions are distinguished:



  1. the stressed vowel;

  2. the vowel in the syllable directly preceding the stressed syllable;

  3. all the rest of the vowels in the word.

Vowels in position 1 are always pronounced as they are, and also they are loud, distinct, and long.
In positions 2 and 3 the result of the reduction is like this:



  • the letters <а> and <о> become [ɐ] in position 2 and [ə] in position 3: барабан [bərɐˈban], молоко [məlɐˈko];

  • as for the letters <у>, <е>, and <и>, each of them has the same sound in positions 2 and 3: for <у> it's [ʊ] – кусать [kʊˈsatʲ] (position 2), муравей [mʊrɐˈvʲej] (position 3).
    For <е> and <и> the reduced sound is always [ɪ]: веселиться [vʲɪsʲɪˈlʲit͡sːə], миллион [mʲɪɪˈon].

Now, your words биржа and клавиатура.
You wrote:




Examples: клавиатура and биржа , for both of these words they have the same IPA in the area of the и, yet sound completely different.




You probably simply didn't notice the difference in the IPA symbols for <и> in these two words, but the difference is there, and the difference is important, although graphically it's just a mere dot over i.



In биржа, <и> is stressed, so it's pronounced like [i] and sounds very much like the English <ее> in meet or feel: биржа [ˈbʲirʐə].



In клавиатура, <и> is in the second syllable before the stressed <у>, so it is in position 3 and that's why it is pronounced as [ɪ] (note, there's no dot over it), that's the sound found in the English words sit, pin, or big: клавиатура [kləvʲɪɐˈturə].



IPA is a set of technical symbols, that's why all their graphic elements (like the presence/absence of the dot over i) are functional and cannot be neglected, or else inevitable confusion will arise.






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    the problem is that in клавиатура [и] is not identical to [i] in the listed English words, where the preceding consonants are hard unlike the Russian [в]

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 10:25






  • 1





    it does make it in pronunciation, i will correct myself and say that there's much greater similarity between [i] in big etc. and [и] in клавиатура if compared to British English

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 12:51







  • 1





    @БаянКупи-ка - That's exactly what I wrote in my answer (about the similarity between [ɪ] in big etc. and [и] in клавиатура). Also, what do you mean by "hard"? As far as I know, the English consonants [pʰ], [tʰ], [kʰ] are sometimes called "hard" while [b], [d], [g] are "soft", but those are just casual names for fortis and lenis which has nothing to do with the Russian phonetics. The same way, the Russian твёрдые and мягкие have no analogies in the English phonetics. Besides, the question was about vowels, even though the title of the question is about consonants.

    – Yellow Sky
    Jun 9 at 12:56







  • 1





    you did, only that it's worthwhile to take into account the version of English

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 13:46






  • 1





    if you compare them to each other, but if you compare them to Russian British version is closer, the specifics of the IPA system don't tell much, to me anyway, if i hear difference, i believe my ears, or it just means that for different versions of English certain notation symbols signify different allophones

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 15:25












Your Answer








StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "451"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);

else
createEditor();

);

function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);



);













draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frussian.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f19889%2feffect-of-palatalization-on-a-consonant-before-%25d0%25b8%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









2














Strictly formally



in биржа [и] sounds like it does in beer.



in клавиатура [и] sounds like it does in video.



The difference you perceive might stem from the vowel's being unstressed. In two these words one is stressed while another isn't.



Technically in isolation they sound identically. But without stress vowels tend to get reduced so their pronunciation is less distinct. The only formal rule for reduction of [и] in unstressed position deals with its reduction into [ы] which doesn't apply here.



I will agree that in клавиатура [и] gravitates towards [иэ] and in fact this is a syllable susceptible to mistake in writing of elementary and middle school children. Google lists 18,700 occurrances of клавЕатура.



It lists Бержа as well but almost exlusively capitalized and not in the sense of stock exchange.






share|improve this answer

























  • So what is the rule here? If и is stressed ee and if not it will sound somewhat like ы/i

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 7:16











  • @Almonds812 there's no rule for this specific case, i guess you don't need to focus on unstressed И too much, making sure you get the stressed part correctly, but at the same time keeping in mind that it's И and not E or Э... and you may have misread my remark, the reduction into Ы does not apply here, it's for other cases

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 7:49











  • So its correct that a stressed и is always ee?

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 7:50











  • And unstressed is just some mix inbetween?

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 7:50











  • @Almonds812 yes, i think that's the right way to look at it

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 7:52















2














Strictly formally



in биржа [и] sounds like it does in beer.



in клавиатура [и] sounds like it does in video.



The difference you perceive might stem from the vowel's being unstressed. In two these words one is stressed while another isn't.



Technically in isolation they sound identically. But without stress vowels tend to get reduced so their pronunciation is less distinct. The only formal rule for reduction of [и] in unstressed position deals with its reduction into [ы] which doesn't apply here.



I will agree that in клавиатура [и] gravitates towards [иэ] and in fact this is a syllable susceptible to mistake in writing of elementary and middle school children. Google lists 18,700 occurrances of клавЕатура.



It lists Бержа as well but almost exlusively capitalized and not in the sense of stock exchange.






share|improve this answer

























  • So what is the rule here? If и is stressed ee and if not it will sound somewhat like ы/i

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 7:16











  • @Almonds812 there's no rule for this specific case, i guess you don't need to focus on unstressed И too much, making sure you get the stressed part correctly, but at the same time keeping in mind that it's И and not E or Э... and you may have misread my remark, the reduction into Ы does not apply here, it's for other cases

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 7:49











  • So its correct that a stressed и is always ee?

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 7:50











  • And unstressed is just some mix inbetween?

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 7:50











  • @Almonds812 yes, i think that's the right way to look at it

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 7:52













2












2








2







Strictly formally



in биржа [и] sounds like it does in beer.



in клавиатура [и] sounds like it does in video.



The difference you perceive might stem from the vowel's being unstressed. In two these words one is stressed while another isn't.



Technically in isolation they sound identically. But without stress vowels tend to get reduced so their pronunciation is less distinct. The only formal rule for reduction of [и] in unstressed position deals with its reduction into [ы] which doesn't apply here.



I will agree that in клавиатура [и] gravitates towards [иэ] and in fact this is a syllable susceptible to mistake in writing of elementary and middle school children. Google lists 18,700 occurrances of клавЕатура.



It lists Бержа as well but almost exlusively capitalized and not in the sense of stock exchange.






share|improve this answer















Strictly formally



in биржа [и] sounds like it does in beer.



in клавиатура [и] sounds like it does in video.



The difference you perceive might stem from the vowel's being unstressed. In two these words one is stressed while another isn't.



Technically in isolation they sound identically. But without stress vowels tend to get reduced so their pronunciation is less distinct. The only formal rule for reduction of [и] in unstressed position deals with its reduction into [ы] which doesn't apply here.



I will agree that in клавиатура [и] gravitates towards [иэ] and in fact this is a syllable susceptible to mistake in writing of elementary and middle school children. Google lists 18,700 occurrances of клавЕатура.



It lists Бержа as well but almost exlusively capitalized and not in the sense of stock exchange.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Jun 9 at 7:13

























answered Jun 9 at 7:07









Баян Купи-каБаян Купи-ка

17.8k11642




17.8k11642












  • So what is the rule here? If и is stressed ee and if not it will sound somewhat like ы/i

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 7:16











  • @Almonds812 there's no rule for this specific case, i guess you don't need to focus on unstressed И too much, making sure you get the stressed part correctly, but at the same time keeping in mind that it's И and not E or Э... and you may have misread my remark, the reduction into Ы does not apply here, it's for other cases

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 7:49











  • So its correct that a stressed и is always ee?

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 7:50











  • And unstressed is just some mix inbetween?

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 7:50











  • @Almonds812 yes, i think that's the right way to look at it

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 7:52

















  • So what is the rule here? If и is stressed ee and if not it will sound somewhat like ы/i

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 7:16











  • @Almonds812 there's no rule for this specific case, i guess you don't need to focus on unstressed И too much, making sure you get the stressed part correctly, but at the same time keeping in mind that it's И and not E or Э... and you may have misread my remark, the reduction into Ы does not apply here, it's for other cases

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 7:49











  • So its correct that a stressed и is always ee?

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 7:50











  • And unstressed is just some mix inbetween?

    – Almonds812
    Jun 9 at 7:50











  • @Almonds812 yes, i think that's the right way to look at it

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 7:52
















So what is the rule here? If и is stressed ee and if not it will sound somewhat like ы/i

– Almonds812
Jun 9 at 7:16





So what is the rule here? If и is stressed ee and if not it will sound somewhat like ы/i

– Almonds812
Jun 9 at 7:16













@Almonds812 there's no rule for this specific case, i guess you don't need to focus on unstressed И too much, making sure you get the stressed part correctly, but at the same time keeping in mind that it's И and not E or Э... and you may have misread my remark, the reduction into Ы does not apply here, it's for other cases

– Баян Купи-ка
Jun 9 at 7:49





@Almonds812 there's no rule for this specific case, i guess you don't need to focus on unstressed И too much, making sure you get the stressed part correctly, but at the same time keeping in mind that it's И and not E or Э... and you may have misread my remark, the reduction into Ы does not apply here, it's for other cases

– Баян Купи-ка
Jun 9 at 7:49













So its correct that a stressed и is always ee?

– Almonds812
Jun 9 at 7:50





So its correct that a stressed и is always ee?

– Almonds812
Jun 9 at 7:50













And unstressed is just some mix inbetween?

– Almonds812
Jun 9 at 7:50





And unstressed is just some mix inbetween?

– Almonds812
Jun 9 at 7:50













@Almonds812 yes, i think that's the right way to look at it

– Баян Купи-ка
Jun 9 at 7:52





@Almonds812 yes, i think that's the right way to look at it

– Баян Купи-ка
Jun 9 at 7:52











2














The vowel sounds in Russian words get reduced depending on their position in relation to the stressed vowel. Here, 3 different positions are distinguished:



  1. the stressed vowel;

  2. the vowel in the syllable directly preceding the stressed syllable;

  3. all the rest of the vowels in the word.

Vowels in position 1 are always pronounced as they are, and also they are loud, distinct, and long.
In positions 2 and 3 the result of the reduction is like this:



  • the letters <а> and <о> become [ɐ] in position 2 and [ə] in position 3: барабан [bərɐˈban], молоко [məlɐˈko];

  • as for the letters <у>, <е>, and <и>, each of them has the same sound in positions 2 and 3: for <у> it's [ʊ] – кусать [kʊˈsatʲ] (position 2), муравей [mʊrɐˈvʲej] (position 3).
    For <е> and <и> the reduced sound is always [ɪ]: веселиться [vʲɪsʲɪˈlʲit͡sːə], миллион [mʲɪɪˈon].

Now, your words биржа and клавиатура.
You wrote:




Examples: клавиатура and биржа , for both of these words they have the same IPA in the area of the и, yet sound completely different.




You probably simply didn't notice the difference in the IPA symbols for <и> in these two words, but the difference is there, and the difference is important, although graphically it's just a mere dot over i.



In биржа, <и> is stressed, so it's pronounced like [i] and sounds very much like the English <ее> in meet or feel: биржа [ˈbʲirʐə].



In клавиатура, <и> is in the second syllable before the stressed <у>, so it is in position 3 and that's why it is pronounced as [ɪ] (note, there's no dot over it), that's the sound found in the English words sit, pin, or big: клавиатура [kləvʲɪɐˈturə].



IPA is a set of technical symbols, that's why all their graphic elements (like the presence/absence of the dot over i) are functional and cannot be neglected, or else inevitable confusion will arise.






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    the problem is that in клавиатура [и] is not identical to [i] in the listed English words, where the preceding consonants are hard unlike the Russian [в]

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 10:25






  • 1





    it does make it in pronunciation, i will correct myself and say that there's much greater similarity between [i] in big etc. and [и] in клавиатура if compared to British English

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 12:51







  • 1





    @БаянКупи-ка - That's exactly what I wrote in my answer (about the similarity between [ɪ] in big etc. and [и] in клавиатура). Also, what do you mean by "hard"? As far as I know, the English consonants [pʰ], [tʰ], [kʰ] are sometimes called "hard" while [b], [d], [g] are "soft", but those are just casual names for fortis and lenis which has nothing to do with the Russian phonetics. The same way, the Russian твёрдые and мягкие have no analogies in the English phonetics. Besides, the question was about vowels, even though the title of the question is about consonants.

    – Yellow Sky
    Jun 9 at 12:56







  • 1





    you did, only that it's worthwhile to take into account the version of English

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 13:46






  • 1





    if you compare them to each other, but if you compare them to Russian British version is closer, the specifics of the IPA system don't tell much, to me anyway, if i hear difference, i believe my ears, or it just means that for different versions of English certain notation symbols signify different allophones

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 15:25
















2














The vowel sounds in Russian words get reduced depending on their position in relation to the stressed vowel. Here, 3 different positions are distinguished:



  1. the stressed vowel;

  2. the vowel in the syllable directly preceding the stressed syllable;

  3. all the rest of the vowels in the word.

Vowels in position 1 are always pronounced as they are, and also they are loud, distinct, and long.
In positions 2 and 3 the result of the reduction is like this:



  • the letters <а> and <о> become [ɐ] in position 2 and [ə] in position 3: барабан [bərɐˈban], молоко [məlɐˈko];

  • as for the letters <у>, <е>, and <и>, each of them has the same sound in positions 2 and 3: for <у> it's [ʊ] – кусать [kʊˈsatʲ] (position 2), муравей [mʊrɐˈvʲej] (position 3).
    For <е> and <и> the reduced sound is always [ɪ]: веселиться [vʲɪsʲɪˈlʲit͡sːə], миллион [mʲɪɪˈon].

Now, your words биржа and клавиатура.
You wrote:




Examples: клавиатура and биржа , for both of these words they have the same IPA in the area of the и, yet sound completely different.




You probably simply didn't notice the difference in the IPA symbols for <и> in these two words, but the difference is there, and the difference is important, although graphically it's just a mere dot over i.



In биржа, <и> is stressed, so it's pronounced like [i] and sounds very much like the English <ее> in meet or feel: биржа [ˈbʲirʐə].



In клавиатура, <и> is in the second syllable before the stressed <у>, so it is in position 3 and that's why it is pronounced as [ɪ] (note, there's no dot over it), that's the sound found in the English words sit, pin, or big: клавиатура [kləvʲɪɐˈturə].



IPA is a set of technical symbols, that's why all their graphic elements (like the presence/absence of the dot over i) are functional and cannot be neglected, or else inevitable confusion will arise.






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    the problem is that in клавиатура [и] is not identical to [i] in the listed English words, where the preceding consonants are hard unlike the Russian [в]

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 10:25






  • 1





    it does make it in pronunciation, i will correct myself and say that there's much greater similarity between [i] in big etc. and [и] in клавиатура if compared to British English

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 12:51







  • 1





    @БаянКупи-ка - That's exactly what I wrote in my answer (about the similarity between [ɪ] in big etc. and [и] in клавиатура). Also, what do you mean by "hard"? As far as I know, the English consonants [pʰ], [tʰ], [kʰ] are sometimes called "hard" while [b], [d], [g] are "soft", but those are just casual names for fortis and lenis which has nothing to do with the Russian phonetics. The same way, the Russian твёрдые and мягкие have no analogies in the English phonetics. Besides, the question was about vowels, even though the title of the question is about consonants.

    – Yellow Sky
    Jun 9 at 12:56







  • 1





    you did, only that it's worthwhile to take into account the version of English

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 13:46






  • 1





    if you compare them to each other, but if you compare them to Russian British version is closer, the specifics of the IPA system don't tell much, to me anyway, if i hear difference, i believe my ears, or it just means that for different versions of English certain notation symbols signify different allophones

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 15:25














2












2








2







The vowel sounds in Russian words get reduced depending on their position in relation to the stressed vowel. Here, 3 different positions are distinguished:



  1. the stressed vowel;

  2. the vowel in the syllable directly preceding the stressed syllable;

  3. all the rest of the vowels in the word.

Vowels in position 1 are always pronounced as they are, and also they are loud, distinct, and long.
In positions 2 and 3 the result of the reduction is like this:



  • the letters <а> and <о> become [ɐ] in position 2 and [ə] in position 3: барабан [bərɐˈban], молоко [məlɐˈko];

  • as for the letters <у>, <е>, and <и>, each of them has the same sound in positions 2 and 3: for <у> it's [ʊ] – кусать [kʊˈsatʲ] (position 2), муравей [mʊrɐˈvʲej] (position 3).
    For <е> and <и> the reduced sound is always [ɪ]: веселиться [vʲɪsʲɪˈlʲit͡sːə], миллион [mʲɪɪˈon].

Now, your words биржа and клавиатура.
You wrote:




Examples: клавиатура and биржа , for both of these words they have the same IPA in the area of the и, yet sound completely different.




You probably simply didn't notice the difference in the IPA symbols for <и> in these two words, but the difference is there, and the difference is important, although graphically it's just a mere dot over i.



In биржа, <и> is stressed, so it's pronounced like [i] and sounds very much like the English <ее> in meet or feel: биржа [ˈbʲirʐə].



In клавиатура, <и> is in the second syllable before the stressed <у>, so it is in position 3 and that's why it is pronounced as [ɪ] (note, there's no dot over it), that's the sound found in the English words sit, pin, or big: клавиатура [kləvʲɪɐˈturə].



IPA is a set of technical symbols, that's why all their graphic elements (like the presence/absence of the dot over i) are functional and cannot be neglected, or else inevitable confusion will arise.






share|improve this answer















The vowel sounds in Russian words get reduced depending on their position in relation to the stressed vowel. Here, 3 different positions are distinguished:



  1. the stressed vowel;

  2. the vowel in the syllable directly preceding the stressed syllable;

  3. all the rest of the vowels in the word.

Vowels in position 1 are always pronounced as they are, and also they are loud, distinct, and long.
In positions 2 and 3 the result of the reduction is like this:



  • the letters <а> and <о> become [ɐ] in position 2 and [ə] in position 3: барабан [bərɐˈban], молоко [məlɐˈko];

  • as for the letters <у>, <е>, and <и>, each of them has the same sound in positions 2 and 3: for <у> it's [ʊ] – кусать [kʊˈsatʲ] (position 2), муравей [mʊrɐˈvʲej] (position 3).
    For <е> and <и> the reduced sound is always [ɪ]: веселиться [vʲɪsʲɪˈlʲit͡sːə], миллион [mʲɪɪˈon].

Now, your words биржа and клавиатура.
You wrote:




Examples: клавиатура and биржа , for both of these words they have the same IPA in the area of the и, yet sound completely different.




You probably simply didn't notice the difference in the IPA symbols for <и> in these two words, but the difference is there, and the difference is important, although graphically it's just a mere dot over i.



In биржа, <и> is stressed, so it's pronounced like [i] and sounds very much like the English <ее> in meet or feel: биржа [ˈbʲirʐə].



In клавиатура, <и> is in the second syllable before the stressed <у>, so it is in position 3 and that's why it is pronounced as [ɪ] (note, there's no dot over it), that's the sound found in the English words sit, pin, or big: клавиатура [kləvʲɪɐˈturə].



IPA is a set of technical symbols, that's why all their graphic elements (like the presence/absence of the dot over i) are functional and cannot be neglected, or else inevitable confusion will arise.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Jun 9 at 12:45

























answered Jun 9 at 10:18









Yellow SkyYellow Sky

19.3k4276




19.3k4276







  • 1





    the problem is that in клавиатура [и] is not identical to [i] in the listed English words, where the preceding consonants are hard unlike the Russian [в]

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 10:25






  • 1





    it does make it in pronunciation, i will correct myself and say that there's much greater similarity between [i] in big etc. and [и] in клавиатура if compared to British English

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 12:51







  • 1





    @БаянКупи-ка - That's exactly what I wrote in my answer (about the similarity between [ɪ] in big etc. and [и] in клавиатура). Also, what do you mean by "hard"? As far as I know, the English consonants [pʰ], [tʰ], [kʰ] are sometimes called "hard" while [b], [d], [g] are "soft", but those are just casual names for fortis and lenis which has nothing to do with the Russian phonetics. The same way, the Russian твёрдые and мягкие have no analogies in the English phonetics. Besides, the question was about vowels, even though the title of the question is about consonants.

    – Yellow Sky
    Jun 9 at 12:56







  • 1





    you did, only that it's worthwhile to take into account the version of English

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 13:46






  • 1





    if you compare them to each other, but if you compare them to Russian British version is closer, the specifics of the IPA system don't tell much, to me anyway, if i hear difference, i believe my ears, or it just means that for different versions of English certain notation symbols signify different allophones

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 15:25













  • 1





    the problem is that in клавиатура [и] is not identical to [i] in the listed English words, where the preceding consonants are hard unlike the Russian [в]

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 10:25






  • 1





    it does make it in pronunciation, i will correct myself and say that there's much greater similarity between [i] in big etc. and [и] in клавиатура if compared to British English

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 12:51







  • 1





    @БаянКупи-ка - That's exactly what I wrote in my answer (about the similarity between [ɪ] in big etc. and [и] in клавиатура). Also, what do you mean by "hard"? As far as I know, the English consonants [pʰ], [tʰ], [kʰ] are sometimes called "hard" while [b], [d], [g] are "soft", but those are just casual names for fortis and lenis which has nothing to do with the Russian phonetics. The same way, the Russian твёрдые and мягкие have no analogies in the English phonetics. Besides, the question was about vowels, even though the title of the question is about consonants.

    – Yellow Sky
    Jun 9 at 12:56







  • 1





    you did, only that it's worthwhile to take into account the version of English

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 13:46






  • 1





    if you compare them to each other, but if you compare them to Russian British version is closer, the specifics of the IPA system don't tell much, to me anyway, if i hear difference, i believe my ears, or it just means that for different versions of English certain notation symbols signify different allophones

    – Баян Купи-ка
    Jun 9 at 15:25








1




1





the problem is that in клавиатура [и] is not identical to [i] in the listed English words, where the preceding consonants are hard unlike the Russian [в]

– Баян Купи-ка
Jun 9 at 10:25





the problem is that in клавиатура [и] is not identical to [i] in the listed English words, where the preceding consonants are hard unlike the Russian [в]

– Баян Купи-ка
Jun 9 at 10:25




1




1





it does make it in pronunciation, i will correct myself and say that there's much greater similarity between [i] in big etc. and [и] in клавиатура if compared to British English

– Баян Купи-ка
Jun 9 at 12:51






it does make it in pronunciation, i will correct myself and say that there's much greater similarity between [i] in big etc. and [и] in клавиатура if compared to British English

– Баян Купи-ка
Jun 9 at 12:51





1




1





@БаянКупи-ка - That's exactly what I wrote in my answer (about the similarity between [ɪ] in big etc. and [и] in клавиатура). Also, what do you mean by "hard"? As far as I know, the English consonants [pʰ], [tʰ], [kʰ] are sometimes called "hard" while [b], [d], [g] are "soft", but those are just casual names for fortis and lenis which has nothing to do with the Russian phonetics. The same way, the Russian твёрдые and мягкие have no analogies in the English phonetics. Besides, the question was about vowels, even though the title of the question is about consonants.

– Yellow Sky
Jun 9 at 12:56






@БаянКупи-ка - That's exactly what I wrote in my answer (about the similarity between [ɪ] in big etc. and [и] in клавиатура). Also, what do you mean by "hard"? As far as I know, the English consonants [pʰ], [tʰ], [kʰ] are sometimes called "hard" while [b], [d], [g] are "soft", but those are just casual names for fortis and lenis which has nothing to do with the Russian phonetics. The same way, the Russian твёрдые and мягкие have no analogies in the English phonetics. Besides, the question was about vowels, even though the title of the question is about consonants.

– Yellow Sky
Jun 9 at 12:56





1




1





you did, only that it's worthwhile to take into account the version of English

– Баян Купи-ка
Jun 9 at 13:46





you did, only that it's worthwhile to take into account the version of English

– Баян Купи-ка
Jun 9 at 13:46




1




1





if you compare them to each other, but if you compare them to Russian British version is closer, the specifics of the IPA system don't tell much, to me anyway, if i hear difference, i believe my ears, or it just means that for different versions of English certain notation symbols signify different allophones

– Баян Купи-ка
Jun 9 at 15:25






if you compare them to each other, but if you compare them to Russian British version is closer, the specifics of the IPA system don't tell much, to me anyway, if i hear difference, i believe my ears, or it just means that for different versions of English certain notation symbols signify different allophones

– Баян Купи-ка
Jun 9 at 15:25


















draft saved

draft discarded
















































Thanks for contributing an answer to Russian Language Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid


  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frussian.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f19889%2feffect-of-palatalization-on-a-consonant-before-%25d0%25b8%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

Category:9 (number) SubcategoriesMedia in category "9 (number)"Navigation menuUpload mediaGND ID: 4485639-8Library of Congress authority ID: sh85091979ReasonatorScholiaStatistics

Circuit construction for execution of conditional statements using least significant bitHow are two different registers being used as “control”?How exactly is the stated composite state of the two registers being produced using the $R_zz$ controlled rotations?Efficiently performing controlled rotations in HHLWould this quantum algorithm implementation work?How to prepare a superposed states of odd integers from $1$ to $sqrtN$?Why is this implementation of the order finding algorithm not working?Circuit construction for Hamiltonian simulationHow can I invert the least significant bit of a certain term of a superposed state?Implementing an oracleImplementing a controlled sum operation

Magento 2 “No Payment Methods” in Admin New OrderHow to integrate Paypal Express Checkout with the Magento APIMagento 1.5 - Sales > Order > edit order and shipping methods disappearAuto Invoice Check/Money Order Payment methodAdd more simple payment methods?Shipping methods not showingWhat should I do to change payment methods if changing the configuration has no effects?1.9 - No Payment Methods showing upMy Payment Methods not Showing for downloadable/virtual product when checkout?Magento2 API to access internal payment methodHow to call an existing payment methods in the registration form?