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Someone who is granted access to information but not expected to read it



Why is this method incorrect?


Why is this Poisson distribution incorrect?Angular distribution of lines passing through two squares.Multiple Anihilating Random Walks in a Ring (cycle)Population exercise with Markov chainsFind the probability that a duel ends after the $n^th$ round of shots.Relation between: Likelihood, conditional probability and failure rateThe Three-Cornered DuelA variation of the balls-and-bins problem, with additional constraintsProbability two people will meet within 10 minutes of each other?Calculating the probability of winning a game of Rainbow Six Siege













5












$begingroup$



A man is to be executed at random time between 00:00 and 01:00. The
firing squad's accuracy decreases linearly, so that at 00:00 they
shoot perfectly, at 00:30 miss half the time, and at 01:00 miss
always. Also, with probability 1/2, a blank round of shots will be
used.



Given that the man survived, what is the probability that he faced a
live round?





At first I drew a diagram with time on x-axis, a horizontal line at $y=1/2$ with "blind round" above it and "live round" below. Then I divided that lower region with a diagonal to represent the falling accuracy, and got the answer $frac14 / (frac14+frac12) = frac13$ which a simulation seems to confirm.



I'm not sure why the following method gives an incorrect answer: at time $theta$, $P_theta (textsurvived)=theta/2 + 1/2$ and $P_theta(textlive rounds and survived) = theta/2$. Therefore $P_theta(text survived) = fracthetatheta+1$. Now integrate to get $int_0^1 P_theta dtheta = int_0^1 fracdtheta . thetatheta+1 = 1-log 2 approx 0.3069$.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Nice background story for the question. Looks taken from Games of Thrones...
    $endgroup$
    – DonAntonio
    Jun 8 at 23:22















5












$begingroup$



A man is to be executed at random time between 00:00 and 01:00. The
firing squad's accuracy decreases linearly, so that at 00:00 they
shoot perfectly, at 00:30 miss half the time, and at 01:00 miss
always. Also, with probability 1/2, a blank round of shots will be
used.



Given that the man survived, what is the probability that he faced a
live round?





At first I drew a diagram with time on x-axis, a horizontal line at $y=1/2$ with "blind round" above it and "live round" below. Then I divided that lower region with a diagonal to represent the falling accuracy, and got the answer $frac14 / (frac14+frac12) = frac13$ which a simulation seems to confirm.



I'm not sure why the following method gives an incorrect answer: at time $theta$, $P_theta (textsurvived)=theta/2 + 1/2$ and $P_theta(textlive rounds and survived) = theta/2$. Therefore $P_theta(text survived) = fracthetatheta+1$. Now integrate to get $int_0^1 P_theta dtheta = int_0^1 fracdtheta . thetatheta+1 = 1-log 2 approx 0.3069$.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Nice background story for the question. Looks taken from Games of Thrones...
    $endgroup$
    – DonAntonio
    Jun 8 at 23:22













5












5








5


5



$begingroup$



A man is to be executed at random time between 00:00 and 01:00. The
firing squad's accuracy decreases linearly, so that at 00:00 they
shoot perfectly, at 00:30 miss half the time, and at 01:00 miss
always. Also, with probability 1/2, a blank round of shots will be
used.



Given that the man survived, what is the probability that he faced a
live round?





At first I drew a diagram with time on x-axis, a horizontal line at $y=1/2$ with "blind round" above it and "live round" below. Then I divided that lower region with a diagonal to represent the falling accuracy, and got the answer $frac14 / (frac14+frac12) = frac13$ which a simulation seems to confirm.



I'm not sure why the following method gives an incorrect answer: at time $theta$, $P_theta (textsurvived)=theta/2 + 1/2$ and $P_theta(textlive rounds and survived) = theta/2$. Therefore $P_theta(text survived) = fracthetatheta+1$. Now integrate to get $int_0^1 P_theta dtheta = int_0^1 fracdtheta . thetatheta+1 = 1-log 2 approx 0.3069$.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$





A man is to be executed at random time between 00:00 and 01:00. The
firing squad's accuracy decreases linearly, so that at 00:00 they
shoot perfectly, at 00:30 miss half the time, and at 01:00 miss
always. Also, with probability 1/2, a blank round of shots will be
used.



Given that the man survived, what is the probability that he faced a
live round?





At first I drew a diagram with time on x-axis, a horizontal line at $y=1/2$ with "blind round" above it and "live round" below. Then I divided that lower region with a diagonal to represent the falling accuracy, and got the answer $frac14 / (frac14+frac12) = frac13$ which a simulation seems to confirm.



I'm not sure why the following method gives an incorrect answer: at time $theta$, $P_theta (textsurvived)=theta/2 + 1/2$ and $P_theta(textlive rounds and survived) = theta/2$. Therefore $P_theta(text survived) = fracthetatheta+1$. Now integrate to get $int_0^1 P_theta dtheta = int_0^1 fracdtheta . thetatheta+1 = 1-log 2 approx 0.3069$.







probability probability-distributions






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share|cite|improve this question













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share|cite|improve this question








edited Jun 9 at 10:18









Klangen

2,08411336




2,08411336










asked Jun 8 at 22:57









MoronicMoronic

523




523







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Nice background story for the question. Looks taken from Games of Thrones...
    $endgroup$
    – DonAntonio
    Jun 8 at 23:22












  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Nice background story for the question. Looks taken from Games of Thrones...
    $endgroup$
    – DonAntonio
    Jun 8 at 23:22







2




2




$begingroup$
Nice background story for the question. Looks taken from Games of Thrones...
$endgroup$
– DonAntonio
Jun 8 at 23:22




$begingroup$
Nice background story for the question. Looks taken from Games of Thrones...
$endgroup$
– DonAntonio
Jun 8 at 23:22










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

The answer by @paulinho is excellent, but here's another way to explain why your second answer is wrong.



Let $L=$ live rounds, and $S =$ survive. I will use $P()$ for probability and $p()$ for pdf.



Your $theta over theta + 1 = P(L | theta, S)$. So if you integrate $int_0^1 theta over theta + 1; dtheta = int_0^1 P(L | theta, S); d theta$, since $theta$ is time, you are assuming that every moment is equally likely. However, when conditioned on survival, every moment is not equally likely!



You needed something akin to the pdf of $theta$, conditioned on $S$, shown in red below:



  • $P(L|S) = int_0^1 p(L, theta | S); d theta = int_0^1 P(L | theta, S) colorredp(theta ; d theta$

Frankly, finding $p(theta | S)$ requires basically solving the entire problem, so this is not a good way to proceed. Instead:



  • $p(L, theta | S) = p(L, theta, S) / P(S)$


  • $p(L, theta, S) = theta / 2$


  • So, $P(L|S) = int_0^1 theta / 2 over P(S) ; dtheta = int_0^1 (theta /2) dtheta over P(S)$ and you are back to the answer by @paulinho






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$




















    6












    $begingroup$

    This is similar to the question, "does $displaystyle int fracf(x)g(x) dx= fracint f(x) dxint g(x) dx?$" The answer is no, and this will resolve your issue. We know that the probability of surviving given that he faced blank rounds is the probability of both divided by the probability of surviving. So the expression we're really looking for here is $$p = fracint_0^1 (theta/2)dthetaint_0^1 (theta/2 + 1/2)d theta=frac1/21 + 1/2 = boxed1/3.$$






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Yes (+1), that pinpoints the error.
      $endgroup$
      – quasi
      Jun 8 at 23:45











    • $begingroup$
      I understand why these integrals aren't equal, but I don't understand why "$int_0^1 fracx.dxx+1$" does not define the correct answer. What is this value?
      $endgroup$
      – Moronic
      Jun 9 at 0:02












    Your Answer








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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    2












    $begingroup$

    The answer by @paulinho is excellent, but here's another way to explain why your second answer is wrong.



    Let $L=$ live rounds, and $S =$ survive. I will use $P()$ for probability and $p()$ for pdf.



    Your $theta over theta + 1 = P(L | theta, S)$. So if you integrate $int_0^1 theta over theta + 1; dtheta = int_0^1 P(L | theta, S); d theta$, since $theta$ is time, you are assuming that every moment is equally likely. However, when conditioned on survival, every moment is not equally likely!



    You needed something akin to the pdf of $theta$, conditioned on $S$, shown in red below:



    • $P(L|S) = int_0^1 p(L, theta | S); d theta = int_0^1 P(L | theta, S) colorredp(theta ; d theta$

    Frankly, finding $p(theta | S)$ requires basically solving the entire problem, so this is not a good way to proceed. Instead:



    • $p(L, theta | S) = p(L, theta, S) / P(S)$


    • $p(L, theta, S) = theta / 2$


    • So, $P(L|S) = int_0^1 theta / 2 over P(S) ; dtheta = int_0^1 (theta /2) dtheta over P(S)$ and you are back to the answer by @paulinho






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$

















      2












      $begingroup$

      The answer by @paulinho is excellent, but here's another way to explain why your second answer is wrong.



      Let $L=$ live rounds, and $S =$ survive. I will use $P()$ for probability and $p()$ for pdf.



      Your $theta over theta + 1 = P(L | theta, S)$. So if you integrate $int_0^1 theta over theta + 1; dtheta = int_0^1 P(L | theta, S); d theta$, since $theta$ is time, you are assuming that every moment is equally likely. However, when conditioned on survival, every moment is not equally likely!



      You needed something akin to the pdf of $theta$, conditioned on $S$, shown in red below:



      • $P(L|S) = int_0^1 p(L, theta | S); d theta = int_0^1 P(L | theta, S) colorredp(theta ; d theta$

      Frankly, finding $p(theta | S)$ requires basically solving the entire problem, so this is not a good way to proceed. Instead:



      • $p(L, theta | S) = p(L, theta, S) / P(S)$


      • $p(L, theta, S) = theta / 2$


      • So, $P(L|S) = int_0^1 theta / 2 over P(S) ; dtheta = int_0^1 (theta /2) dtheta over P(S)$ and you are back to the answer by @paulinho






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$















        2












        2








        2





        $begingroup$

        The answer by @paulinho is excellent, but here's another way to explain why your second answer is wrong.



        Let $L=$ live rounds, and $S =$ survive. I will use $P()$ for probability and $p()$ for pdf.



        Your $theta over theta + 1 = P(L | theta, S)$. So if you integrate $int_0^1 theta over theta + 1; dtheta = int_0^1 P(L | theta, S); d theta$, since $theta$ is time, you are assuming that every moment is equally likely. However, when conditioned on survival, every moment is not equally likely!



        You needed something akin to the pdf of $theta$, conditioned on $S$, shown in red below:



        • $P(L|S) = int_0^1 p(L, theta | S); d theta = int_0^1 P(L | theta, S) colorredp(theta ; d theta$

        Frankly, finding $p(theta | S)$ requires basically solving the entire problem, so this is not a good way to proceed. Instead:



        • $p(L, theta | S) = p(L, theta, S) / P(S)$


        • $p(L, theta, S) = theta / 2$


        • So, $P(L|S) = int_0^1 theta / 2 over P(S) ; dtheta = int_0^1 (theta /2) dtheta over P(S)$ and you are back to the answer by @paulinho






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        The answer by @paulinho is excellent, but here's another way to explain why your second answer is wrong.



        Let $L=$ live rounds, and $S =$ survive. I will use $P()$ for probability and $p()$ for pdf.



        Your $theta over theta + 1 = P(L | theta, S)$. So if you integrate $int_0^1 theta over theta + 1; dtheta = int_0^1 P(L | theta, S); d theta$, since $theta$ is time, you are assuming that every moment is equally likely. However, when conditioned on survival, every moment is not equally likely!



        You needed something akin to the pdf of $theta$, conditioned on $S$, shown in red below:



        • $P(L|S) = int_0^1 p(L, theta | S); d theta = int_0^1 P(L | theta, S) colorredp(theta ; d theta$

        Frankly, finding $p(theta | S)$ requires basically solving the entire problem, so this is not a good way to proceed. Instead:



        • $p(L, theta | S) = p(L, theta, S) / P(S)$


        • $p(L, theta, S) = theta / 2$


        • So, $P(L|S) = int_0^1 theta / 2 over P(S) ; dtheta = int_0^1 (theta /2) dtheta over P(S)$ and you are back to the answer by @paulinho







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited Jun 9 at 7:27

























        answered Jun 9 at 6:58









        antkamantkam

        5,344415




        5,344415





















            6












            $begingroup$

            This is similar to the question, "does $displaystyle int fracf(x)g(x) dx= fracint f(x) dxint g(x) dx?$" The answer is no, and this will resolve your issue. We know that the probability of surviving given that he faced blank rounds is the probability of both divided by the probability of surviving. So the expression we're really looking for here is $$p = fracint_0^1 (theta/2)dthetaint_0^1 (theta/2 + 1/2)d theta=frac1/21 + 1/2 = boxed1/3.$$






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              Yes (+1), that pinpoints the error.
              $endgroup$
              – quasi
              Jun 8 at 23:45











            • $begingroup$
              I understand why these integrals aren't equal, but I don't understand why "$int_0^1 fracx.dxx+1$" does not define the correct answer. What is this value?
              $endgroup$
              – Moronic
              Jun 9 at 0:02
















            6












            $begingroup$

            This is similar to the question, "does $displaystyle int fracf(x)g(x) dx= fracint f(x) dxint g(x) dx?$" The answer is no, and this will resolve your issue. We know that the probability of surviving given that he faced blank rounds is the probability of both divided by the probability of surviving. So the expression we're really looking for here is $$p = fracint_0^1 (theta/2)dthetaint_0^1 (theta/2 + 1/2)d theta=frac1/21 + 1/2 = boxed1/3.$$






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$












            • $begingroup$
              Yes (+1), that pinpoints the error.
              $endgroup$
              – quasi
              Jun 8 at 23:45











            • $begingroup$
              I understand why these integrals aren't equal, but I don't understand why "$int_0^1 fracx.dxx+1$" does not define the correct answer. What is this value?
              $endgroup$
              – Moronic
              Jun 9 at 0:02














            6












            6








            6





            $begingroup$

            This is similar to the question, "does $displaystyle int fracf(x)g(x) dx= fracint f(x) dxint g(x) dx?$" The answer is no, and this will resolve your issue. We know that the probability of surviving given that he faced blank rounds is the probability of both divided by the probability of surviving. So the expression we're really looking for here is $$p = fracint_0^1 (theta/2)dthetaint_0^1 (theta/2 + 1/2)d theta=frac1/21 + 1/2 = boxed1/3.$$






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            This is similar to the question, "does $displaystyle int fracf(x)g(x) dx= fracint f(x) dxint g(x) dx?$" The answer is no, and this will resolve your issue. We know that the probability of surviving given that he faced blank rounds is the probability of both divided by the probability of surviving. So the expression we're really looking for here is $$p = fracint_0^1 (theta/2)dthetaint_0^1 (theta/2 + 1/2)d theta=frac1/21 + 1/2 = boxed1/3.$$







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered Jun 8 at 23:38









            paulinhopaulinho

            851111




            851111











            • $begingroup$
              Yes (+1), that pinpoints the error.
              $endgroup$
              – quasi
              Jun 8 at 23:45











            • $begingroup$
              I understand why these integrals aren't equal, but I don't understand why "$int_0^1 fracx.dxx+1$" does not define the correct answer. What is this value?
              $endgroup$
              – Moronic
              Jun 9 at 0:02

















            • $begingroup$
              Yes (+1), that pinpoints the error.
              $endgroup$
              – quasi
              Jun 8 at 23:45











            • $begingroup$
              I understand why these integrals aren't equal, but I don't understand why "$int_0^1 fracx.dxx+1$" does not define the correct answer. What is this value?
              $endgroup$
              – Moronic
              Jun 9 at 0:02
















            $begingroup$
            Yes (+1), that pinpoints the error.
            $endgroup$
            – quasi
            Jun 8 at 23:45





            $begingroup$
            Yes (+1), that pinpoints the error.
            $endgroup$
            – quasi
            Jun 8 at 23:45













            $begingroup$
            I understand why these integrals aren't equal, but I don't understand why "$int_0^1 fracx.dxx+1$" does not define the correct answer. What is this value?
            $endgroup$
            – Moronic
            Jun 9 at 0:02





            $begingroup$
            I understand why these integrals aren't equal, but I don't understand why "$int_0^1 fracx.dxx+1$" does not define the correct answer. What is this value?
            $endgroup$
            – Moronic
            Jun 9 at 0:02


















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