Every infinite linearly ordered set has two disjoint infinite subsetsWith Choice, is any linearly ordered set well-ordered if no subset has order type $omega^*$?Prove that for any infinite poset there is an infinite subset which is either linearly ordered or antichain.Proving implication on well ordered set implies ACEvery linearly ordered subset $mathcalA$ of a set $mathcalW$ of well orderings $leq$ on subsets of some set $X$ has an upper bound.Set Theory: Fully ordered but not well ordered set proofUnderstanding Zorn's lemma xxWhy is “totally ordered” necessary in this implication of the Axiom of FoundationEquivalent Definition of Well-Ordered SetEquivalence of two statements on an arbitrary partially ordered set $(A, <)$For- and backwards well-ordered set is finite.
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Every infinite linearly ordered set has two disjoint infinite subsets
With Choice, is any linearly ordered set well-ordered if no subset has order type $omega^*$?Prove that for any infinite poset there is an infinite subset which is either linearly ordered or antichain.Proving implication on well ordered set implies ACEvery linearly ordered subset $mathcalA$ of a set $mathcalW$ of well orderings $leq$ on subsets of some set $X$ has an upper bound.Set Theory: Fully ordered but not well ordered set proofUnderstanding Zorn's lemma xxWhy is “totally ordered” necessary in this implication of the Axiom of FoundationEquivalent Definition of Well-Ordered SetEquivalence of two statements on an arbitrary partially ordered set $(A, <)$For- and backwards well-ordered set is finite.
$begingroup$
According to the Wikipedia Page on amorphous sets, no amorphous set can be totally ordered. If I am correct, this states that every infinite totally ordered set has two disjoint infinite subsets, but I am not sure how to go about proving it in ZF (if it is even provable in ZF), although here's my attempt:
Every infinite totally ordered set $S$ has either an infinitely decreasing or infinitely increasing subset, so I tried considering such a subset $A$. Without loss of generality, suppose $A$ is increasing. Then, letting $a_1$ be an element in $A$, the set $A_1:=ain Amid a>a_1$ is infinite and thus non-empty. Now, let $a_2$ be an element of $ain A$. Since $a_2in A$, the set $A_2:=ain Amid a>a_2$ is nonempty, and we can continue in this way to generate a sequence $a_1,a_2,dots$.
My problem is that I rather suspect I just used the axiom of countable choice if not something stronger. Is there a way of proving this in ZF alone?
elementary-set-theory
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
According to the Wikipedia Page on amorphous sets, no amorphous set can be totally ordered. If I am correct, this states that every infinite totally ordered set has two disjoint infinite subsets, but I am not sure how to go about proving it in ZF (if it is even provable in ZF), although here's my attempt:
Every infinite totally ordered set $S$ has either an infinitely decreasing or infinitely increasing subset, so I tried considering such a subset $A$. Without loss of generality, suppose $A$ is increasing. Then, letting $a_1$ be an element in $A$, the set $A_1:=ain Amid a>a_1$ is infinite and thus non-empty. Now, let $a_2$ be an element of $ain A$. Since $a_2in A$, the set $A_2:=ain Amid a>a_2$ is nonempty, and we can continue in this way to generate a sequence $a_1,a_2,dots$.
My problem is that I rather suspect I just used the axiom of countable choice if not something stronger. Is there a way of proving this in ZF alone?
elementary-set-theory
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
What does "infinitely decreasing subset" mean for a set that might be amorphous? Such sets son't even have infinite sequences of their elements, so you can't be talking of whether such a sequence is decreasing...
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 19:52
$begingroup$
Hmm, on further thought what you probably mean there is "a subset with no least element" instead of "infinitely decreasing". Then the rest of the argument does make sense. (But I'm not sure the existence of such a set doesn't itself require some form of choice).
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 20:14
$begingroup$
What is an example of amorphous set?
$endgroup$
– mathpadawan
Jun 22 at 23:40
1
$begingroup$
@mathpadawan According to Wikipedia: “Fraenkel constructed a permutation model of ZFA in which the set of atoms is amorphous.”
$endgroup$
– P-addict
Jun 23 at 3:48
add a comment |
$begingroup$
According to the Wikipedia Page on amorphous sets, no amorphous set can be totally ordered. If I am correct, this states that every infinite totally ordered set has two disjoint infinite subsets, but I am not sure how to go about proving it in ZF (if it is even provable in ZF), although here's my attempt:
Every infinite totally ordered set $S$ has either an infinitely decreasing or infinitely increasing subset, so I tried considering such a subset $A$. Without loss of generality, suppose $A$ is increasing. Then, letting $a_1$ be an element in $A$, the set $A_1:=ain Amid a>a_1$ is infinite and thus non-empty. Now, let $a_2$ be an element of $ain A$. Since $a_2in A$, the set $A_2:=ain Amid a>a_2$ is nonempty, and we can continue in this way to generate a sequence $a_1,a_2,dots$.
My problem is that I rather suspect I just used the axiom of countable choice if not something stronger. Is there a way of proving this in ZF alone?
elementary-set-theory
$endgroup$
According to the Wikipedia Page on amorphous sets, no amorphous set can be totally ordered. If I am correct, this states that every infinite totally ordered set has two disjoint infinite subsets, but I am not sure how to go about proving it in ZF (if it is even provable in ZF), although here's my attempt:
Every infinite totally ordered set $S$ has either an infinitely decreasing or infinitely increasing subset, so I tried considering such a subset $A$. Without loss of generality, suppose $A$ is increasing. Then, letting $a_1$ be an element in $A$, the set $A_1:=ain Amid a>a_1$ is infinite and thus non-empty. Now, let $a_2$ be an element of $ain A$. Since $a_2in A$, the set $A_2:=ain Amid a>a_2$ is nonempty, and we can continue in this way to generate a sequence $a_1,a_2,dots$.
My problem is that I rather suspect I just used the axiom of countable choice if not something stronger. Is there a way of proving this in ZF alone?
elementary-set-theory
elementary-set-theory
asked Jun 22 at 19:40
P-addictP-addict
614 bronze badges
614 bronze badges
3
$begingroup$
What does "infinitely decreasing subset" mean for a set that might be amorphous? Such sets son't even have infinite sequences of their elements, so you can't be talking of whether such a sequence is decreasing...
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 19:52
$begingroup$
Hmm, on further thought what you probably mean there is "a subset with no least element" instead of "infinitely decreasing". Then the rest of the argument does make sense. (But I'm not sure the existence of such a set doesn't itself require some form of choice).
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 20:14
$begingroup$
What is an example of amorphous set?
$endgroup$
– mathpadawan
Jun 22 at 23:40
1
$begingroup$
@mathpadawan According to Wikipedia: “Fraenkel constructed a permutation model of ZFA in which the set of atoms is amorphous.”
$endgroup$
– P-addict
Jun 23 at 3:48
add a comment |
3
$begingroup$
What does "infinitely decreasing subset" mean for a set that might be amorphous? Such sets son't even have infinite sequences of their elements, so you can't be talking of whether such a sequence is decreasing...
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 19:52
$begingroup$
Hmm, on further thought what you probably mean there is "a subset with no least element" instead of "infinitely decreasing". Then the rest of the argument does make sense. (But I'm not sure the existence of such a set doesn't itself require some form of choice).
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 20:14
$begingroup$
What is an example of amorphous set?
$endgroup$
– mathpadawan
Jun 22 at 23:40
1
$begingroup$
@mathpadawan According to Wikipedia: “Fraenkel constructed a permutation model of ZFA in which the set of atoms is amorphous.”
$endgroup$
– P-addict
Jun 23 at 3:48
3
3
$begingroup$
What does "infinitely decreasing subset" mean for a set that might be amorphous? Such sets son't even have infinite sequences of their elements, so you can't be talking of whether such a sequence is decreasing...
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 19:52
$begingroup$
What does "infinitely decreasing subset" mean for a set that might be amorphous? Such sets son't even have infinite sequences of their elements, so you can't be talking of whether such a sequence is decreasing...
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 19:52
$begingroup$
Hmm, on further thought what you probably mean there is "a subset with no least element" instead of "infinitely decreasing". Then the rest of the argument does make sense. (But I'm not sure the existence of such a set doesn't itself require some form of choice).
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 20:14
$begingroup$
Hmm, on further thought what you probably mean there is "a subset with no least element" instead of "infinitely decreasing". Then the rest of the argument does make sense. (But I'm not sure the existence of such a set doesn't itself require some form of choice).
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 20:14
$begingroup$
What is an example of amorphous set?
$endgroup$
– mathpadawan
Jun 22 at 23:40
$begingroup$
What is an example of amorphous set?
$endgroup$
– mathpadawan
Jun 22 at 23:40
1
1
$begingroup$
@mathpadawan According to Wikipedia: “Fraenkel constructed a permutation model of ZFA in which the set of atoms is amorphous.”
$endgroup$
– P-addict
Jun 23 at 3:48
$begingroup$
@mathpadawan According to Wikipedia: “Fraenkel constructed a permutation model of ZFA in which the set of atoms is amorphous.”
$endgroup$
– P-addict
Jun 23 at 3:48
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
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$begingroup$
Your proof attempt does indeed depend not only on countable choice, but on dependent choice.
Here's an argument that doesn't:
Suppose $S$ is infinite and totally ordered. If we can find even one element that has both infinitely many predecessors and infinitely many successors, then $S$ is surely not amorphous.¹
Thus the elements of $S$ fall into two classes, namely those with only finitely many predecessors and those with only finitely many successors. At least one of those classes must be infinite; without loss of generality let's suppose that there are infinitely many elements that have finitely many predecessors.
However, in a total order there can be at most one element that has, for example, exactly 42 predecessors. So counting predecessors gives us an injection from an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$, which means that this subset is countable and $S$ is therefore not amorphous.
¹: Note that this apparently unassuming first step is in fact critical to the argument; without it everything unravels. It is consistent with ZF that there may be an infinite totally ordered set that has no countably infinite subset. (Cohen showed a model in which $mathbb R$, definitely totally orderable, has a subset with this property.)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
+1 (I was still typing when this appeared.)
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
Jun 22 at 20:06
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass: It must be right if we both come up with it! :-)
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 20:10
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes, this is provable in ZF. Let $S$ be an infinite linearly ordered set; I'll try to produce two disjoint, infinite subsets of $S$. First, for any $sin S$, consider the set $A_s$ of elements above $s$ in the linear ordering and the set $B_s$ of elements below $s$. If, for some $s$, both $A_s$ and $B_s$ are infinite, we're done, because they're certainly disjoint.
So from now on, we can assume that, for each $s$, one of $A_s$ and $B_s$ is finite (and the other must then be infinite because $S$ is infinite). Without loss of generality, assume there are infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite. (If that's not the case, then, as $S$ is infinite, there will be infinitely many $s$ with $A_s$ finite, and the following argument will apply to the reversed linear ordering.)
For each of the infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite, $|B_s|$ is a natural number, and these natural numbers are different for different $s$. So we have a one-to-one map $f:smapsto |B_s|$ of an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$. But the image of that map (which in fact is all of $mathbb N$ but I don't need that) can be split into two infinite pieces by taking alternating elements of it. The inverse images of those pieces under $f$ are two disjoint infinite subsets of $S$, as required.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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$begingroup$
Your proof attempt does indeed depend not only on countable choice, but on dependent choice.
Here's an argument that doesn't:
Suppose $S$ is infinite and totally ordered. If we can find even one element that has both infinitely many predecessors and infinitely many successors, then $S$ is surely not amorphous.¹
Thus the elements of $S$ fall into two classes, namely those with only finitely many predecessors and those with only finitely many successors. At least one of those classes must be infinite; without loss of generality let's suppose that there are infinitely many elements that have finitely many predecessors.
However, in a total order there can be at most one element that has, for example, exactly 42 predecessors. So counting predecessors gives us an injection from an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$, which means that this subset is countable and $S$ is therefore not amorphous.
¹: Note that this apparently unassuming first step is in fact critical to the argument; without it everything unravels. It is consistent with ZF that there may be an infinite totally ordered set that has no countably infinite subset. (Cohen showed a model in which $mathbb R$, definitely totally orderable, has a subset with this property.)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
+1 (I was still typing when this appeared.)
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
Jun 22 at 20:06
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass: It must be right if we both come up with it! :-)
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 20:10
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your proof attempt does indeed depend not only on countable choice, but on dependent choice.
Here's an argument that doesn't:
Suppose $S$ is infinite and totally ordered. If we can find even one element that has both infinitely many predecessors and infinitely many successors, then $S$ is surely not amorphous.¹
Thus the elements of $S$ fall into two classes, namely those with only finitely many predecessors and those with only finitely many successors. At least one of those classes must be infinite; without loss of generality let's suppose that there are infinitely many elements that have finitely many predecessors.
However, in a total order there can be at most one element that has, for example, exactly 42 predecessors. So counting predecessors gives us an injection from an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$, which means that this subset is countable and $S$ is therefore not amorphous.
¹: Note that this apparently unassuming first step is in fact critical to the argument; without it everything unravels. It is consistent with ZF that there may be an infinite totally ordered set that has no countably infinite subset. (Cohen showed a model in which $mathbb R$, definitely totally orderable, has a subset with this property.)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
+1 (I was still typing when this appeared.)
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
Jun 22 at 20:06
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass: It must be right if we both come up with it! :-)
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 20:10
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your proof attempt does indeed depend not only on countable choice, but on dependent choice.
Here's an argument that doesn't:
Suppose $S$ is infinite and totally ordered. If we can find even one element that has both infinitely many predecessors and infinitely many successors, then $S$ is surely not amorphous.¹
Thus the elements of $S$ fall into two classes, namely those with only finitely many predecessors and those with only finitely many successors. At least one of those classes must be infinite; without loss of generality let's suppose that there are infinitely many elements that have finitely many predecessors.
However, in a total order there can be at most one element that has, for example, exactly 42 predecessors. So counting predecessors gives us an injection from an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$, which means that this subset is countable and $S$ is therefore not amorphous.
¹: Note that this apparently unassuming first step is in fact critical to the argument; without it everything unravels. It is consistent with ZF that there may be an infinite totally ordered set that has no countably infinite subset. (Cohen showed a model in which $mathbb R$, definitely totally orderable, has a subset with this property.)
$endgroup$
Your proof attempt does indeed depend not only on countable choice, but on dependent choice.
Here's an argument that doesn't:
Suppose $S$ is infinite and totally ordered. If we can find even one element that has both infinitely many predecessors and infinitely many successors, then $S$ is surely not amorphous.¹
Thus the elements of $S$ fall into two classes, namely those with only finitely many predecessors and those with only finitely many successors. At least one of those classes must be infinite; without loss of generality let's suppose that there are infinitely many elements that have finitely many predecessors.
However, in a total order there can be at most one element that has, for example, exactly 42 predecessors. So counting predecessors gives us an injection from an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$, which means that this subset is countable and $S$ is therefore not amorphous.
¹: Note that this apparently unassuming first step is in fact critical to the argument; without it everything unravels. It is consistent with ZF that there may be an infinite totally ordered set that has no countably infinite subset. (Cohen showed a model in which $mathbb R$, definitely totally orderable, has a subset with this property.)
edited Jun 22 at 21:01
answered Jun 22 at 20:01
Henning MakholmHenning Makholm
250k17 gold badges329 silver badges570 bronze badges
250k17 gold badges329 silver badges570 bronze badges
$begingroup$
+1 (I was still typing when this appeared.)
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
Jun 22 at 20:06
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass: It must be right if we both come up with it! :-)
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 20:10
add a comment |
$begingroup$
+1 (I was still typing when this appeared.)
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
Jun 22 at 20:06
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass: It must be right if we both come up with it! :-)
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 20:10
$begingroup$
+1 (I was still typing when this appeared.)
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
Jun 22 at 20:06
$begingroup$
+1 (I was still typing when this appeared.)
$endgroup$
– Andreas Blass
Jun 22 at 20:06
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass: It must be right if we both come up with it! :-)
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 20:10
$begingroup$
@AndreasBlass: It must be right if we both come up with it! :-)
$endgroup$
– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 20:10
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes, this is provable in ZF. Let $S$ be an infinite linearly ordered set; I'll try to produce two disjoint, infinite subsets of $S$. First, for any $sin S$, consider the set $A_s$ of elements above $s$ in the linear ordering and the set $B_s$ of elements below $s$. If, for some $s$, both $A_s$ and $B_s$ are infinite, we're done, because they're certainly disjoint.
So from now on, we can assume that, for each $s$, one of $A_s$ and $B_s$ is finite (and the other must then be infinite because $S$ is infinite). Without loss of generality, assume there are infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite. (If that's not the case, then, as $S$ is infinite, there will be infinitely many $s$ with $A_s$ finite, and the following argument will apply to the reversed linear ordering.)
For each of the infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite, $|B_s|$ is a natural number, and these natural numbers are different for different $s$. So we have a one-to-one map $f:smapsto |B_s|$ of an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$. But the image of that map (which in fact is all of $mathbb N$ but I don't need that) can be split into two infinite pieces by taking alternating elements of it. The inverse images of those pieces under $f$ are two disjoint infinite subsets of $S$, as required.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes, this is provable in ZF. Let $S$ be an infinite linearly ordered set; I'll try to produce two disjoint, infinite subsets of $S$. First, for any $sin S$, consider the set $A_s$ of elements above $s$ in the linear ordering and the set $B_s$ of elements below $s$. If, for some $s$, both $A_s$ and $B_s$ are infinite, we're done, because they're certainly disjoint.
So from now on, we can assume that, for each $s$, one of $A_s$ and $B_s$ is finite (and the other must then be infinite because $S$ is infinite). Without loss of generality, assume there are infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite. (If that's not the case, then, as $S$ is infinite, there will be infinitely many $s$ with $A_s$ finite, and the following argument will apply to the reversed linear ordering.)
For each of the infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite, $|B_s|$ is a natural number, and these natural numbers are different for different $s$. So we have a one-to-one map $f:smapsto |B_s|$ of an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$. But the image of that map (which in fact is all of $mathbb N$ but I don't need that) can be split into two infinite pieces by taking alternating elements of it. The inverse images of those pieces under $f$ are two disjoint infinite subsets of $S$, as required.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes, this is provable in ZF. Let $S$ be an infinite linearly ordered set; I'll try to produce two disjoint, infinite subsets of $S$. First, for any $sin S$, consider the set $A_s$ of elements above $s$ in the linear ordering and the set $B_s$ of elements below $s$. If, for some $s$, both $A_s$ and $B_s$ are infinite, we're done, because they're certainly disjoint.
So from now on, we can assume that, for each $s$, one of $A_s$ and $B_s$ is finite (and the other must then be infinite because $S$ is infinite). Without loss of generality, assume there are infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite. (If that's not the case, then, as $S$ is infinite, there will be infinitely many $s$ with $A_s$ finite, and the following argument will apply to the reversed linear ordering.)
For each of the infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite, $|B_s|$ is a natural number, and these natural numbers are different for different $s$. So we have a one-to-one map $f:smapsto |B_s|$ of an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$. But the image of that map (which in fact is all of $mathbb N$ but I don't need that) can be split into two infinite pieces by taking alternating elements of it. The inverse images of those pieces under $f$ are two disjoint infinite subsets of $S$, as required.
$endgroup$
Yes, this is provable in ZF. Let $S$ be an infinite linearly ordered set; I'll try to produce two disjoint, infinite subsets of $S$. First, for any $sin S$, consider the set $A_s$ of elements above $s$ in the linear ordering and the set $B_s$ of elements below $s$. If, for some $s$, both $A_s$ and $B_s$ are infinite, we're done, because they're certainly disjoint.
So from now on, we can assume that, for each $s$, one of $A_s$ and $B_s$ is finite (and the other must then be infinite because $S$ is infinite). Without loss of generality, assume there are infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite. (If that's not the case, then, as $S$ is infinite, there will be infinitely many $s$ with $A_s$ finite, and the following argument will apply to the reversed linear ordering.)
For each of the infinitely many $s$ with $B_s$ finite, $|B_s|$ is a natural number, and these natural numbers are different for different $s$. So we have a one-to-one map $f:smapsto |B_s|$ of an infinite subset of $S$ into $mathbb N$. But the image of that map (which in fact is all of $mathbb N$ but I don't need that) can be split into two infinite pieces by taking alternating elements of it. The inverse images of those pieces under $f$ are two disjoint infinite subsets of $S$, as required.
answered Jun 22 at 20:04
Andreas BlassAndreas Blass
51.9k4 gold badges53 silver badges114 bronze badges
51.9k4 gold badges53 silver badges114 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
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3
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What does "infinitely decreasing subset" mean for a set that might be amorphous? Such sets son't even have infinite sequences of their elements, so you can't be talking of whether such a sequence is decreasing...
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– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 19:52
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Hmm, on further thought what you probably mean there is "a subset with no least element" instead of "infinitely decreasing". Then the rest of the argument does make sense. (But I'm not sure the existence of such a set doesn't itself require some form of choice).
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– Henning Makholm
Jun 22 at 20:14
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What is an example of amorphous set?
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– mathpadawan
Jun 22 at 23:40
1
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@mathpadawan According to Wikipedia: “Fraenkel constructed a permutation model of ZFA in which the set of atoms is amorphous.”
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– P-addict
Jun 23 at 3:48