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Was I subtly told to resign?


«reversing» the question “how you dealt with critique” to an employerHow do I bring up relocation/resignation?What is a good way to get honest feedback from leaving employees?When your boss is trying to turn your co-workers against youShould I leave my company when I'm the only developer?How to resign from company that will fail if I quitCan you decline to give a reason, and ask to not attempt to be retained when you resign?I was not awarded my first bonus, and without even a discussionMost of team formed clique and I want to leave the team. What should I tell my manager if I resign?Good way to convey to manager that there may have been issues but you're willing to change and how to prove it?How to handle high performing software developers undermining a senior lead?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








85















I am a junior developer, working for approximately two years at my current company. Lately things have not been great here (delayed raise, restructuring of the company, and lots of seniors leaving - which is not necessarily a good sign).



We have had lots of discussion with the team lead and in the team and I have complained about some things (salary, office, team atmosphere, and so on). These were done "anonymously" (but the team lead figured who was who). The complaints also reached HR. We talked about the issues and I do understand that most of them are not easily solvable. I have starting applying to other companies, because it's very unlikely that I will stay much longer here.



Today I had a discussion with my HR representative. She told me that working for a company is similar to a relationship and that both sides need to make it work. She asked me about the raise situation and told me that is was most likely miscommunication. Also, she told me that in a relationship you have two options:



  • Change the things that do not work and adjust your behavior


  • Move on


Did she basically tell me to look for another company? I'm sorry now that I did not ask for a clarification, but I was in shock. She asked me what makes me happy here and there was not much to say. Yes, I do plan on leaving, but I would like to feel less pressed and stressed about it.










share|improve this question



















  • 180





    If you plan on leaving anyway, why would anything she says matter to you?

    – sf02
    Jul 9 at 15:40






  • 6





    HR people don't have that kind of authority. If it came from a line manager above you it might be different.

    – user207421
    Jul 10 at 8:07






  • 4





    It would help if you said where you're located. In the US, if you resign you don't get to collect unemployment benefits, if they fire you, you do. At least in some states, firing people can increase what they pay for unemployment insurance, so it's to their benefit to persuade you to quit. Assuming you haven't found a better job, it's to your benefit to stay.

    – jamesqf
    Jul 10 at 16:44






  • 7





    "I have complained[...]. These were done "anonymously" (but the team lead figured who was who). [...] Today I had a discussion with my HR representative." What a great company. I think you could sue them over this in US or EU... This is not a suggestion but it seems beyond immoral. The HR also told 3. things, and it's a tautology. There are always those options: change things, adapt to things, leave. This list is exhaustive.

    – luk32
    Jul 11 at 12:03







  • 11





    What strikes me about this is that this person made a very clear unambiguous and neutral statement, one that is just a universal truth, that you have multiple options and one is to leave but you interpreted it as something much different. This is a mistake and a bad habit that I see very often. I would recommend you try to get into a habit of taking people at their word. Listen to what they are actually saying and not the internal monologue in your head. It's frustrating to tell people things and then find out they have twisted it into something different than intended.

    – JimmyJames
    Jul 11 at 18:13


















85















I am a junior developer, working for approximately two years at my current company. Lately things have not been great here (delayed raise, restructuring of the company, and lots of seniors leaving - which is not necessarily a good sign).



We have had lots of discussion with the team lead and in the team and I have complained about some things (salary, office, team atmosphere, and so on). These were done "anonymously" (but the team lead figured who was who). The complaints also reached HR. We talked about the issues and I do understand that most of them are not easily solvable. I have starting applying to other companies, because it's very unlikely that I will stay much longer here.



Today I had a discussion with my HR representative. She told me that working for a company is similar to a relationship and that both sides need to make it work. She asked me about the raise situation and told me that is was most likely miscommunication. Also, she told me that in a relationship you have two options:



  • Change the things that do not work and adjust your behavior


  • Move on


Did she basically tell me to look for another company? I'm sorry now that I did not ask for a clarification, but I was in shock. She asked me what makes me happy here and there was not much to say. Yes, I do plan on leaving, but I would like to feel less pressed and stressed about it.










share|improve this question



















  • 180





    If you plan on leaving anyway, why would anything she says matter to you?

    – sf02
    Jul 9 at 15:40






  • 6





    HR people don't have that kind of authority. If it came from a line manager above you it might be different.

    – user207421
    Jul 10 at 8:07






  • 4





    It would help if you said where you're located. In the US, if you resign you don't get to collect unemployment benefits, if they fire you, you do. At least in some states, firing people can increase what they pay for unemployment insurance, so it's to their benefit to persuade you to quit. Assuming you haven't found a better job, it's to your benefit to stay.

    – jamesqf
    Jul 10 at 16:44






  • 7





    "I have complained[...]. These were done "anonymously" (but the team lead figured who was who). [...] Today I had a discussion with my HR representative." What a great company. I think you could sue them over this in US or EU... This is not a suggestion but it seems beyond immoral. The HR also told 3. things, and it's a tautology. There are always those options: change things, adapt to things, leave. This list is exhaustive.

    – luk32
    Jul 11 at 12:03







  • 11





    What strikes me about this is that this person made a very clear unambiguous and neutral statement, one that is just a universal truth, that you have multiple options and one is to leave but you interpreted it as something much different. This is a mistake and a bad habit that I see very often. I would recommend you try to get into a habit of taking people at their word. Listen to what they are actually saying and not the internal monologue in your head. It's frustrating to tell people things and then find out they have twisted it into something different than intended.

    – JimmyJames
    Jul 11 at 18:13














85












85








85


7






I am a junior developer, working for approximately two years at my current company. Lately things have not been great here (delayed raise, restructuring of the company, and lots of seniors leaving - which is not necessarily a good sign).



We have had lots of discussion with the team lead and in the team and I have complained about some things (salary, office, team atmosphere, and so on). These were done "anonymously" (but the team lead figured who was who). The complaints also reached HR. We talked about the issues and I do understand that most of them are not easily solvable. I have starting applying to other companies, because it's very unlikely that I will stay much longer here.



Today I had a discussion with my HR representative. She told me that working for a company is similar to a relationship and that both sides need to make it work. She asked me about the raise situation and told me that is was most likely miscommunication. Also, she told me that in a relationship you have two options:



  • Change the things that do not work and adjust your behavior


  • Move on


Did she basically tell me to look for another company? I'm sorry now that I did not ask for a clarification, but I was in shock. She asked me what makes me happy here and there was not much to say. Yes, I do plan on leaving, but I would like to feel less pressed and stressed about it.










share|improve this question
















I am a junior developer, working for approximately two years at my current company. Lately things have not been great here (delayed raise, restructuring of the company, and lots of seniors leaving - which is not necessarily a good sign).



We have had lots of discussion with the team lead and in the team and I have complained about some things (salary, office, team atmosphere, and so on). These were done "anonymously" (but the team lead figured who was who). The complaints also reached HR. We talked about the issues and I do understand that most of them are not easily solvable. I have starting applying to other companies, because it's very unlikely that I will stay much longer here.



Today I had a discussion with my HR representative. She told me that working for a company is similar to a relationship and that both sides need to make it work. She asked me about the raise situation and told me that is was most likely miscommunication. Also, she told me that in a relationship you have two options:



  • Change the things that do not work and adjust your behavior


  • Move on


Did she basically tell me to look for another company? I'm sorry now that I did not ask for a clarification, but I was in shock. She asked me what makes me happy here and there was not much to say. Yes, I do plan on leaving, but I would like to feel less pressed and stressed about it.







software-industry human-resources resignation






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Jul 12 at 11:53









Peter Mortensen

6345 silver badges7 bronze badges




6345 silver badges7 bronze badges










asked Jul 9 at 15:35









noisyRamnoisyRam

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3871 gold badge2 silver badges6 bronze badges







  • 180





    If you plan on leaving anyway, why would anything she says matter to you?

    – sf02
    Jul 9 at 15:40






  • 6





    HR people don't have that kind of authority. If it came from a line manager above you it might be different.

    – user207421
    Jul 10 at 8:07






  • 4





    It would help if you said where you're located. In the US, if you resign you don't get to collect unemployment benefits, if they fire you, you do. At least in some states, firing people can increase what they pay for unemployment insurance, so it's to their benefit to persuade you to quit. Assuming you haven't found a better job, it's to your benefit to stay.

    – jamesqf
    Jul 10 at 16:44






  • 7





    "I have complained[...]. These were done "anonymously" (but the team lead figured who was who). [...] Today I had a discussion with my HR representative." What a great company. I think you could sue them over this in US or EU... This is not a suggestion but it seems beyond immoral. The HR also told 3. things, and it's a tautology. There are always those options: change things, adapt to things, leave. This list is exhaustive.

    – luk32
    Jul 11 at 12:03







  • 11





    What strikes me about this is that this person made a very clear unambiguous and neutral statement, one that is just a universal truth, that you have multiple options and one is to leave but you interpreted it as something much different. This is a mistake and a bad habit that I see very often. I would recommend you try to get into a habit of taking people at their word. Listen to what they are actually saying and not the internal monologue in your head. It's frustrating to tell people things and then find out they have twisted it into something different than intended.

    – JimmyJames
    Jul 11 at 18:13













  • 180





    If you plan on leaving anyway, why would anything she says matter to you?

    – sf02
    Jul 9 at 15:40






  • 6





    HR people don't have that kind of authority. If it came from a line manager above you it might be different.

    – user207421
    Jul 10 at 8:07






  • 4





    It would help if you said where you're located. In the US, if you resign you don't get to collect unemployment benefits, if they fire you, you do. At least in some states, firing people can increase what they pay for unemployment insurance, so it's to their benefit to persuade you to quit. Assuming you haven't found a better job, it's to your benefit to stay.

    – jamesqf
    Jul 10 at 16:44






  • 7





    "I have complained[...]. These were done "anonymously" (but the team lead figured who was who). [...] Today I had a discussion with my HR representative." What a great company. I think you could sue them over this in US or EU... This is not a suggestion but it seems beyond immoral. The HR also told 3. things, and it's a tautology. There are always those options: change things, adapt to things, leave. This list is exhaustive.

    – luk32
    Jul 11 at 12:03







  • 11





    What strikes me about this is that this person made a very clear unambiguous and neutral statement, one that is just a universal truth, that you have multiple options and one is to leave but you interpreted it as something much different. This is a mistake and a bad habit that I see very often. I would recommend you try to get into a habit of taking people at their word. Listen to what they are actually saying and not the internal monologue in your head. It's frustrating to tell people things and then find out they have twisted it into something different than intended.

    – JimmyJames
    Jul 11 at 18:13








180




180





If you plan on leaving anyway, why would anything she says matter to you?

– sf02
Jul 9 at 15:40





If you plan on leaving anyway, why would anything she says matter to you?

– sf02
Jul 9 at 15:40




6




6





HR people don't have that kind of authority. If it came from a line manager above you it might be different.

– user207421
Jul 10 at 8:07





HR people don't have that kind of authority. If it came from a line manager above you it might be different.

– user207421
Jul 10 at 8:07




4




4





It would help if you said where you're located. In the US, if you resign you don't get to collect unemployment benefits, if they fire you, you do. At least in some states, firing people can increase what they pay for unemployment insurance, so it's to their benefit to persuade you to quit. Assuming you haven't found a better job, it's to your benefit to stay.

– jamesqf
Jul 10 at 16:44





It would help if you said where you're located. In the US, if you resign you don't get to collect unemployment benefits, if they fire you, you do. At least in some states, firing people can increase what they pay for unemployment insurance, so it's to their benefit to persuade you to quit. Assuming you haven't found a better job, it's to your benefit to stay.

– jamesqf
Jul 10 at 16:44




7




7





"I have complained[...]. These were done "anonymously" (but the team lead figured who was who). [...] Today I had a discussion with my HR representative." What a great company. I think you could sue them over this in US or EU... This is not a suggestion but it seems beyond immoral. The HR also told 3. things, and it's a tautology. There are always those options: change things, adapt to things, leave. This list is exhaustive.

– luk32
Jul 11 at 12:03






"I have complained[...]. These were done "anonymously" (but the team lead figured who was who). [...] Today I had a discussion with my HR representative." What a great company. I think you could sue them over this in US or EU... This is not a suggestion but it seems beyond immoral. The HR also told 3. things, and it's a tautology. There are always those options: change things, adapt to things, leave. This list is exhaustive.

– luk32
Jul 11 at 12:03





11




11





What strikes me about this is that this person made a very clear unambiguous and neutral statement, one that is just a universal truth, that you have multiple options and one is to leave but you interpreted it as something much different. This is a mistake and a bad habit that I see very often. I would recommend you try to get into a habit of taking people at their word. Listen to what they are actually saying and not the internal monologue in your head. It's frustrating to tell people things and then find out they have twisted it into something different than intended.

– JimmyJames
Jul 11 at 18:13






What strikes me about this is that this person made a very clear unambiguous and neutral statement, one that is just a universal truth, that you have multiple options and one is to leave but you interpreted it as something much different. This is a mistake and a bad habit that I see very often. I would recommend you try to get into a habit of taking people at their word. Listen to what they are actually saying and not the internal monologue in your head. It's frustrating to tell people things and then find out they have twisted it into something different than intended.

– JimmyJames
Jul 11 at 18:13











9 Answers
9






active

oldest

votes


















202















Did she basically tell me to look for another company?




If this is your main and only question, I will just answer that instead of telling you what you should do.



It is impossible to tell with complete confidence what she meant when she told you what she told you. However, I would interpret more as:




"Stop complaining, focus on your work by looking at the positive aspects about your job and if you cannot do that, get out".




This is slightly different from your interpretation.






share|improve this answer


















  • 94





    "Put up or shut up"

    – Richard
    Jul 10 at 6:48






  • 4





    That was my interpretation too. To put it more charitably, she's asking, are these things you don't like about the job things you are willing to learn to live with if they cannot be changed. But yes, the implication is that if you can't live with things the company is unwilling to change, that's basically an impasse that can only be resolved in one other way.

    – delinear
    Jul 10 at 9:25






  • 11





    @PagMax "Put up" isn't the same as "Put up with it". It means take action. So take action (leave) or remain silent (get on with the work).

    – Jamie Butterworth
    Jul 10 at 10:36






  • 8





    Same concept, but even more clear: On behalf of the company, she said, "The company is not going to change."

    – donjuedo
    Jul 10 at 13:03







  • 3





    To be clear, “put up” refers to put your money up. Put something on the line, participate, or else don’t talk. In this case, the money is translated to effort and “shut up” is to stop complaining.

    – vol7ron
    Jul 11 at 11:11


















50















Am I subtly told to resign?




In this case: Why / what does it matter?



Always remember: HR is not our friend, they will always try to protect the company's interest.



In this case, HR sees (or, you are portrayed as) you as someone who is complaining, and given that you started the process "anonymously" and got exposed later - somehow depicts either of two:



  • The anonymity of the (any) process in the organization is questionable

  • You did not want to stand up for the problems you are facing, rather tried hiding behind the cloak of anonymity.

In this scenario, irrespective of what HR said, I'd advise: accelerate the process of job search and move out. This does not sound like a workplace you want to continue.



To add, you already said:




I have starting applying to other companies because it's very unlikely that I will stay much longer here.




So, that's it, you already have started the process. What the HR has said now should not matter much and you also should not be bothered whether they are trying to hint you to quit : do it yourself.






share|improve this answer




















  • 3





    Why does HR have to be the enemy here? (Not our friend). That sounded like pretty legit advice to give to a friend. "Complaining doesn't solve anything. Do something about it. Trying to fix things is an option, leaving is an option. Being a toxic (coworker or friend) is not an option"

    – Mars
    Jul 10 at 4:17






  • 6





    @Mars "We have had lots of discussion with the team lead and in the team and I have complained about some things (salary, office, team atmosphere, and so on)"...if complaining about things are being "toxic", then we all are toxic. There is a difference between complaining and nagging.

    – Sourav Ghosh
    Jul 10 at 4:31






  • 3





    @Mars Perhaps better phrasing is “useless to the employee” vs. “not a friend”? I often find HR to be likable people and I think they want to help. In this case the advice was true, but really had no new information. It’s a perception issue. HR says, “you can come to us with anything.” Excepting fairly narrow scenarios outside of the mechanics of benefits, they generally can do nothing or in “opening a dialog” often make things worse.

    – John Spiegel
    Jul 10 at 19:01







  • 7





    I'd be extremely upset if feedback was solicited anonymously then my comments used against me.

    – Rob Crawford
    Jul 10 at 19:46






  • 2





    @Mars How exactly do you expect OP to produce a "solution" to his lack of a raise or seniors leaving? The solution is to give him (and possibly them) that raise, and it's gotta be produced by the company, not OP.

    – Demonblack
    Jul 11 at 17:00


















42














All great answers above. In short yes, you are told to




deal with it or resign




I'm a senior developer now (10+ years) but I've been through this stage of struggle in personal development.



If you've had regular formal reviews, it is a common practice to belittle your achievements and exaggerate your failures, which usually means another yellow/red flag to consider resignation. For example if you had 100 things done right, they'll pick the smallest 3. And if you did 3 things wrong, they will all be on the review, in shiny colors.



There are some informal phrases that are subtly telling you to resign.



In short anything that is telling you obvious things about titles and subordination.



Or anything directly targeted at you and/or which qualities of yours make you a bad fit.



Below are some example phrases and their loose translation (you may have heard some of these well before the last conversation with HR, so those could have been some yellow/warning flags, if we consider the last conversation a red flag):



  • "You need to understand that" - it is you who needs to understand, not them

  • "I am your manager" ("She/He is your manager") "... architect, team lead etc" - and you are a junior.

  • "People complained about you" - exactly 1 person complained, but let's make a deal out of it, because there is really nothing else against you.

  • "You were late from lunch break by 5min" - well, if nothing else.

  • "Stop being defensive/aggressive" - nobody cares about your opinion/feelings, just follow orders.

  • "You are being very (any negative word)" - no other facts, blame personality, you can't argue this way.

  • "We don't have time for (something)" - we don't care about (something)

And weirdly enough:



  • "You are a great member of our team", "...very talented developer" etc, especially if you hear this often in 1-on-1 conversations and never in team discussions - means no raise/pay, but the company will tolerate you for the time being.

I haven't been to the stage when I'm told about an option of moving on, just never waited that long before leaving. However, if you tell them you even remotely consider leaving, in any shape or form - consider yourself written off. They'll just look for a good moment to let you go. So treat them the same, I think it's fair.



Hope this helps you in future career, so that you can make informed choices sooner. Most important lesson I learnt - if you want to switch jobs and can afford the uncertainty, then go ahead and do it, it will almost always work in your favor, no matter the struggle in between the current you and the success that lies ahead.






share|improve this answer


















  • 9





    This appears to be a rather good manual for something but not quite on topic for this question. :(

    – Joshua
    Jul 10 at 2:53






  • 7





    This is great advice! Also, never believe your employer when they claim that something you say will be treated anonymously. Especially when they ask for "honest and anonymous feedback", it's usually a trap to identify who they need to deal with.

    – Niko1978
    Jul 10 at 5:57







  • 12





    Another of my personal favorites is "we need you to be a team player." What this actually means is "we need you to do things you were not hired to do, that fall well outside of your core competencies, and we're not willing to put up the time and money to train you in it." (In an actual team, the players have well-defined roles; you don't put your pitcher in the outfield or have Nate hack the computers and Sophie fight the thugs!)

    – Mason Wheeler
    Jul 10 at 12:22






  • 1





    This answer is a pleasent change from the usual ones here. It really resonantes with my experience of reviews. Focussing on small insignificant "problems" despite doing 100 good things, etc. Really is a massive red flag and usually highlights both personality and managerial problems...

    – user9993
    Jul 10 at 12:28






  • 2





    @MasonWheeler great reference! (and I'm proud of myself for getting it before clicking the link.)

    – FreeMan
    Jul 10 at 14:21


















26














I believe that the message was more like, "We aren't going to be able to restructure every aspect of your work experience to your satisfaction, so if you're serious about these complaints, you should just move on."



So it may be a gentle attempt to get to commit to dealing with the reality of things staying as they are or commit to leaving, but I wouldn't call it a direct call for you to resign.



I seems like they have noticed that you are making multiple complaints about wide reaching issues and want you to know that they are unable or unwilling to expend the resources to resolve your current issues.






share|improve this answer






























    11














    Going to throw in another interpretation:




    There are issues in the company. There are reasons for those issues, as we have previously discussed. We can't magically make them go away, so either be part of the solution, adapt, be silent (not specifically mentioned as an option), or go away.




    Complainers accomplish little. It sounds like you've already spoken about the root reasons behind those complaints, and you don't seem to have a way to fix it.



    Ideally, you'd help fix things. Companies like that. They usually even reward that.



    But not everything can be fixed. And if you feel that is the case, or that fixing things isn't worth the effort, then finding a better environment is probably in your best interest.




    I wouldn't consider that pressure from your HR rep--more like genuine career advice.






    share|improve this answer


















    • 8





      "Ideally, you'd help fix things. Companies like that. They usually even reward that." This doesn't really align with my experience - usually anyone wishing to bring change however small or helpful it is are (unfairly) viewed negatively. Maybe I've just worked for bad companies...

      – user9993
      Jul 10 at 12:30






    • 2





      Let me concurr: I've seen plenty of business situations where managers claim they want to fix things, but when it comes down to it they don't actually want to make the changes necessary to fix things. (Many, perhaps most, people are uncomfortable with change.)

      – Curt J. Sampson
      Jul 11 at 0:43






    • 1





      @user9993 I think that mostly depends on whether or not the company sees it as an actual problem. I think we all often feel that resistance to making things better when it requires some kind of change, IF things weren't broken to begin with. I think you typically have more luck when you present a plan, a small budget, and offer to do all/most of the work

      – Mars
      Jul 11 at 5:30






    • 2





      This is the only answer so far that accounts for the "Change the things that do not work" part of the non-quitting option. All the others focus just on the "...and adjust your behavior" part of that option. I agree with this answer in that I don't think the HR rep was saying "shut up or get out". I think it's more like "help change what you can and adjust your expectations where things can't change or your behaviors if you're at fault, or find a better fit elsewhere if that doesn't work for you". It really didn't sound toxic to me--surprisingly gracious, actually. Good answer.

      – bob
      Jul 11 at 16:31



















    7














    HR are not stupid enough to directly pressure you to leave. That may be illegal in your country anyway. But I would translate the coded message as



    "The company is not going to change any time soon. That piece of information may be useful to you when making your own decision about your future career plans."



    Informally, you have already been marked down as a potential trouble maker and likely leaver. Of course you won't find those words on any records that you could produce in an industrial relations tribunal for unfair dismissal, but the objective record of what you have done and said - and the fact that this meeting with HR took place - won't be forgotten if you stay.






    share|improve this answer























    • I translated the message as "yes, the company is going down. Abandon ship as soon as you can."

      – Robin Bennett
      Jul 10 at 13:58






    • 2





      HR can be very explicit with the "pressure to leave" thing. HR serves the company. They are also very good at serving the company.

      – Julie in Austin
      Jul 10 at 18:47






    • 1





      "won't be forgotten if you stay" -- chilling and accurate -- perhaps the best part of your answer and a great phrase to end with.

      – user23715
      Jul 10 at 20:05


















    3














    To be clear here, @PagMax has already provided a perfect answer to the main question - whether you are 'subtly being told to resign' or not.



    The answer is - you're being told to either accept the company's practices or resign.



    Which is a subtle way of saying that your demands are not going to be met by the company.



    Do not change your current course of action



    In your question, you describe how you are subtly looking for work elsewhere while keeping your current job.



    You should continue to do this. It is apparent that you are dissatisfied with your working conditions, and HR has made it clear to you that those conditions are not going to change.



    Do not be pressured into resigning early - provide your two-weeks resignation (assuming this is the standard in your geographic region) only when you have a new job lined up.



    HR does not want to be paying into a resource that will dry up shortly - but that is their prerogative, not yours. Your prerogative is keeping this job up until you find better work, and only then resigning.






    share|improve this answer






























      1














      No actually it's more complex than that. She clearly told you that you might resign or possibly get fired as well! The both sides need to make it work that you mention plus the metaphor of the relationship is the important part. It sends a clear message that the bullet points work both ways. Now combining this with your bullet points we can translate as follows:



      • Both parties of the relationship change the things that do not work and adjust their behavior.

      • If one one of them is unhappy moves on and the relationship is broken.

      Having that in mind she also told you that the raise thing is a misunderstanding so it's a clear sign that they are willing to make changes from their side. The ball is in your court now and you need to decide:



      1. Is this step enough for you to keep the relationship?

      2. If the answer to 1. is yes, then do you want to make changes as well and ask if there is something from your side to change?

      I skip the "no" part in 1. as you already said that you are thinking of leaving. In my opinion and without knowing the details of your conversation, she seems to me very professional and diplomatic. If only I had half of this professionalism and even half of this "subtlety" in the jobs that I've been, I would have been a very happy person.






      share|improve this answer






























        0














        She gave you the freedom to interpret it as you wish.



        So is it. If she had wanted to fire you, she had communicated that. If she formulates unclear, that means that she does not want to communicate what she did not. They are the experts (in theory) of the personal matters and not you.



        Of course you have all the reasons to start to check your alternatives, it would be so even without this HR talk.



        But, you have not got a clear message to start to seek your next job.



        Other answerers would say "leave", but I think it is easy to give ideas for others, if not we need to accept the consequences.



        In your case, what I would do: I would fight for my job until the last shot - but, I would also seek for the next one, for the case of a firing.



        Don't resign for an unclear HR statement. Don't resign even for a clear one. Resign only if you already have your new job, and it is really much better than your current one.






        share|improve this answer

























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          9 Answers
          9






          active

          oldest

          votes








          9 Answers
          9






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          202















          Did she basically tell me to look for another company?




          If this is your main and only question, I will just answer that instead of telling you what you should do.



          It is impossible to tell with complete confidence what she meant when she told you what she told you. However, I would interpret more as:




          "Stop complaining, focus on your work by looking at the positive aspects about your job and if you cannot do that, get out".




          This is slightly different from your interpretation.






          share|improve this answer


















          • 94





            "Put up or shut up"

            – Richard
            Jul 10 at 6:48






          • 4





            That was my interpretation too. To put it more charitably, she's asking, are these things you don't like about the job things you are willing to learn to live with if they cannot be changed. But yes, the implication is that if you can't live with things the company is unwilling to change, that's basically an impasse that can only be resolved in one other way.

            – delinear
            Jul 10 at 9:25






          • 11





            @PagMax "Put up" isn't the same as "Put up with it". It means take action. So take action (leave) or remain silent (get on with the work).

            – Jamie Butterworth
            Jul 10 at 10:36






          • 8





            Same concept, but even more clear: On behalf of the company, she said, "The company is not going to change."

            – donjuedo
            Jul 10 at 13:03







          • 3





            To be clear, “put up” refers to put your money up. Put something on the line, participate, or else don’t talk. In this case, the money is translated to effort and “shut up” is to stop complaining.

            – vol7ron
            Jul 11 at 11:11















          202















          Did she basically tell me to look for another company?




          If this is your main and only question, I will just answer that instead of telling you what you should do.



          It is impossible to tell with complete confidence what she meant when she told you what she told you. However, I would interpret more as:




          "Stop complaining, focus on your work by looking at the positive aspects about your job and if you cannot do that, get out".




          This is slightly different from your interpretation.






          share|improve this answer


















          • 94





            "Put up or shut up"

            – Richard
            Jul 10 at 6:48






          • 4





            That was my interpretation too. To put it more charitably, she's asking, are these things you don't like about the job things you are willing to learn to live with if they cannot be changed. But yes, the implication is that if you can't live with things the company is unwilling to change, that's basically an impasse that can only be resolved in one other way.

            – delinear
            Jul 10 at 9:25






          • 11





            @PagMax "Put up" isn't the same as "Put up with it". It means take action. So take action (leave) or remain silent (get on with the work).

            – Jamie Butterworth
            Jul 10 at 10:36






          • 8





            Same concept, but even more clear: On behalf of the company, she said, "The company is not going to change."

            – donjuedo
            Jul 10 at 13:03







          • 3





            To be clear, “put up” refers to put your money up. Put something on the line, participate, or else don’t talk. In this case, the money is translated to effort and “shut up” is to stop complaining.

            – vol7ron
            Jul 11 at 11:11













          202












          202








          202








          Did she basically tell me to look for another company?




          If this is your main and only question, I will just answer that instead of telling you what you should do.



          It is impossible to tell with complete confidence what she meant when she told you what she told you. However, I would interpret more as:




          "Stop complaining, focus on your work by looking at the positive aspects about your job and if you cannot do that, get out".




          This is slightly different from your interpretation.






          share|improve this answer














          Did she basically tell me to look for another company?




          If this is your main and only question, I will just answer that instead of telling you what you should do.



          It is impossible to tell with complete confidence what she meant when she told you what she told you. However, I would interpret more as:




          "Stop complaining, focus on your work by looking at the positive aspects about your job and if you cannot do that, get out".




          This is slightly different from your interpretation.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered Jul 9 at 16:01









          PagMaxPagMax

          12.7k7 gold badges32 silver badges53 bronze badges




          12.7k7 gold badges32 silver badges53 bronze badges







          • 94





            "Put up or shut up"

            – Richard
            Jul 10 at 6:48






          • 4





            That was my interpretation too. To put it more charitably, she's asking, are these things you don't like about the job things you are willing to learn to live with if they cannot be changed. But yes, the implication is that if you can't live with things the company is unwilling to change, that's basically an impasse that can only be resolved in one other way.

            – delinear
            Jul 10 at 9:25






          • 11





            @PagMax "Put up" isn't the same as "Put up with it". It means take action. So take action (leave) or remain silent (get on with the work).

            – Jamie Butterworth
            Jul 10 at 10:36






          • 8





            Same concept, but even more clear: On behalf of the company, she said, "The company is not going to change."

            – donjuedo
            Jul 10 at 13:03







          • 3





            To be clear, “put up” refers to put your money up. Put something on the line, participate, or else don’t talk. In this case, the money is translated to effort and “shut up” is to stop complaining.

            – vol7ron
            Jul 11 at 11:11












          • 94





            "Put up or shut up"

            – Richard
            Jul 10 at 6:48






          • 4





            That was my interpretation too. To put it more charitably, she's asking, are these things you don't like about the job things you are willing to learn to live with if they cannot be changed. But yes, the implication is that if you can't live with things the company is unwilling to change, that's basically an impasse that can only be resolved in one other way.

            – delinear
            Jul 10 at 9:25






          • 11





            @PagMax "Put up" isn't the same as "Put up with it". It means take action. So take action (leave) or remain silent (get on with the work).

            – Jamie Butterworth
            Jul 10 at 10:36






          • 8





            Same concept, but even more clear: On behalf of the company, she said, "The company is not going to change."

            – donjuedo
            Jul 10 at 13:03







          • 3





            To be clear, “put up” refers to put your money up. Put something on the line, participate, or else don’t talk. In this case, the money is translated to effort and “shut up” is to stop complaining.

            – vol7ron
            Jul 11 at 11:11







          94




          94





          "Put up or shut up"

          – Richard
          Jul 10 at 6:48





          "Put up or shut up"

          – Richard
          Jul 10 at 6:48




          4




          4





          That was my interpretation too. To put it more charitably, she's asking, are these things you don't like about the job things you are willing to learn to live with if they cannot be changed. But yes, the implication is that if you can't live with things the company is unwilling to change, that's basically an impasse that can only be resolved in one other way.

          – delinear
          Jul 10 at 9:25





          That was my interpretation too. To put it more charitably, she's asking, are these things you don't like about the job things you are willing to learn to live with if they cannot be changed. But yes, the implication is that if you can't live with things the company is unwilling to change, that's basically an impasse that can only be resolved in one other way.

          – delinear
          Jul 10 at 9:25




          11




          11





          @PagMax "Put up" isn't the same as "Put up with it". It means take action. So take action (leave) or remain silent (get on with the work).

          – Jamie Butterworth
          Jul 10 at 10:36





          @PagMax "Put up" isn't the same as "Put up with it". It means take action. So take action (leave) or remain silent (get on with the work).

          – Jamie Butterworth
          Jul 10 at 10:36




          8




          8





          Same concept, but even more clear: On behalf of the company, she said, "The company is not going to change."

          – donjuedo
          Jul 10 at 13:03






          Same concept, but even more clear: On behalf of the company, she said, "The company is not going to change."

          – donjuedo
          Jul 10 at 13:03





          3




          3





          To be clear, “put up” refers to put your money up. Put something on the line, participate, or else don’t talk. In this case, the money is translated to effort and “shut up” is to stop complaining.

          – vol7ron
          Jul 11 at 11:11





          To be clear, “put up” refers to put your money up. Put something on the line, participate, or else don’t talk. In this case, the money is translated to effort and “shut up” is to stop complaining.

          – vol7ron
          Jul 11 at 11:11













          50















          Am I subtly told to resign?




          In this case: Why / what does it matter?



          Always remember: HR is not our friend, they will always try to protect the company's interest.



          In this case, HR sees (or, you are portrayed as) you as someone who is complaining, and given that you started the process "anonymously" and got exposed later - somehow depicts either of two:



          • The anonymity of the (any) process in the organization is questionable

          • You did not want to stand up for the problems you are facing, rather tried hiding behind the cloak of anonymity.

          In this scenario, irrespective of what HR said, I'd advise: accelerate the process of job search and move out. This does not sound like a workplace you want to continue.



          To add, you already said:




          I have starting applying to other companies because it's very unlikely that I will stay much longer here.




          So, that's it, you already have started the process. What the HR has said now should not matter much and you also should not be bothered whether they are trying to hint you to quit : do it yourself.






          share|improve this answer




















          • 3





            Why does HR have to be the enemy here? (Not our friend). That sounded like pretty legit advice to give to a friend. "Complaining doesn't solve anything. Do something about it. Trying to fix things is an option, leaving is an option. Being a toxic (coworker or friend) is not an option"

            – Mars
            Jul 10 at 4:17






          • 6





            @Mars "We have had lots of discussion with the team lead and in the team and I have complained about some things (salary, office, team atmosphere, and so on)"...if complaining about things are being "toxic", then we all are toxic. There is a difference between complaining and nagging.

            – Sourav Ghosh
            Jul 10 at 4:31






          • 3





            @Mars Perhaps better phrasing is “useless to the employee” vs. “not a friend”? I often find HR to be likable people and I think they want to help. In this case the advice was true, but really had no new information. It’s a perception issue. HR says, “you can come to us with anything.” Excepting fairly narrow scenarios outside of the mechanics of benefits, they generally can do nothing or in “opening a dialog” often make things worse.

            – John Spiegel
            Jul 10 at 19:01







          • 7





            I'd be extremely upset if feedback was solicited anonymously then my comments used against me.

            – Rob Crawford
            Jul 10 at 19:46






          • 2





            @Mars How exactly do you expect OP to produce a "solution" to his lack of a raise or seniors leaving? The solution is to give him (and possibly them) that raise, and it's gotta be produced by the company, not OP.

            – Demonblack
            Jul 11 at 17:00















          50















          Am I subtly told to resign?




          In this case: Why / what does it matter?



          Always remember: HR is not our friend, they will always try to protect the company's interest.



          In this case, HR sees (or, you are portrayed as) you as someone who is complaining, and given that you started the process "anonymously" and got exposed later - somehow depicts either of two:



          • The anonymity of the (any) process in the organization is questionable

          • You did not want to stand up for the problems you are facing, rather tried hiding behind the cloak of anonymity.

          In this scenario, irrespective of what HR said, I'd advise: accelerate the process of job search and move out. This does not sound like a workplace you want to continue.



          To add, you already said:




          I have starting applying to other companies because it's very unlikely that I will stay much longer here.




          So, that's it, you already have started the process. What the HR has said now should not matter much and you also should not be bothered whether they are trying to hint you to quit : do it yourself.






          share|improve this answer




















          • 3





            Why does HR have to be the enemy here? (Not our friend). That sounded like pretty legit advice to give to a friend. "Complaining doesn't solve anything. Do something about it. Trying to fix things is an option, leaving is an option. Being a toxic (coworker or friend) is not an option"

            – Mars
            Jul 10 at 4:17






          • 6





            @Mars "We have had lots of discussion with the team lead and in the team and I have complained about some things (salary, office, team atmosphere, and so on)"...if complaining about things are being "toxic", then we all are toxic. There is a difference between complaining and nagging.

            – Sourav Ghosh
            Jul 10 at 4:31






          • 3





            @Mars Perhaps better phrasing is “useless to the employee” vs. “not a friend”? I often find HR to be likable people and I think they want to help. In this case the advice was true, but really had no new information. It’s a perception issue. HR says, “you can come to us with anything.” Excepting fairly narrow scenarios outside of the mechanics of benefits, they generally can do nothing or in “opening a dialog” often make things worse.

            – John Spiegel
            Jul 10 at 19:01







          • 7





            I'd be extremely upset if feedback was solicited anonymously then my comments used against me.

            – Rob Crawford
            Jul 10 at 19:46






          • 2





            @Mars How exactly do you expect OP to produce a "solution" to his lack of a raise or seniors leaving? The solution is to give him (and possibly them) that raise, and it's gotta be produced by the company, not OP.

            – Demonblack
            Jul 11 at 17:00













          50












          50








          50








          Am I subtly told to resign?




          In this case: Why / what does it matter?



          Always remember: HR is not our friend, they will always try to protect the company's interest.



          In this case, HR sees (or, you are portrayed as) you as someone who is complaining, and given that you started the process "anonymously" and got exposed later - somehow depicts either of two:



          • The anonymity of the (any) process in the organization is questionable

          • You did not want to stand up for the problems you are facing, rather tried hiding behind the cloak of anonymity.

          In this scenario, irrespective of what HR said, I'd advise: accelerate the process of job search and move out. This does not sound like a workplace you want to continue.



          To add, you already said:




          I have starting applying to other companies because it's very unlikely that I will stay much longer here.




          So, that's it, you already have started the process. What the HR has said now should not matter much and you also should not be bothered whether they are trying to hint you to quit : do it yourself.






          share|improve this answer
















          Am I subtly told to resign?




          In this case: Why / what does it matter?



          Always remember: HR is not our friend, they will always try to protect the company's interest.



          In this case, HR sees (or, you are portrayed as) you as someone who is complaining, and given that you started the process "anonymously" and got exposed later - somehow depicts either of two:



          • The anonymity of the (any) process in the organization is questionable

          • You did not want to stand up for the problems you are facing, rather tried hiding behind the cloak of anonymity.

          In this scenario, irrespective of what HR said, I'd advise: accelerate the process of job search and move out. This does not sound like a workplace you want to continue.



          To add, you already said:




          I have starting applying to other companies because it's very unlikely that I will stay much longer here.




          So, that's it, you already have started the process. What the HR has said now should not matter much and you also should not be bothered whether they are trying to hint you to quit : do it yourself.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited Jul 11 at 9:32









          Michael Wang

          1032 bronze badges




          1032 bronze badges










          answered Jul 9 at 15:52









          Sourav GhoshSourav Ghosh

          22k22 gold badges105 silver badges129 bronze badges




          22k22 gold badges105 silver badges129 bronze badges







          • 3





            Why does HR have to be the enemy here? (Not our friend). That sounded like pretty legit advice to give to a friend. "Complaining doesn't solve anything. Do something about it. Trying to fix things is an option, leaving is an option. Being a toxic (coworker or friend) is not an option"

            – Mars
            Jul 10 at 4:17






          • 6





            @Mars "We have had lots of discussion with the team lead and in the team and I have complained about some things (salary, office, team atmosphere, and so on)"...if complaining about things are being "toxic", then we all are toxic. There is a difference between complaining and nagging.

            – Sourav Ghosh
            Jul 10 at 4:31






          • 3





            @Mars Perhaps better phrasing is “useless to the employee” vs. “not a friend”? I often find HR to be likable people and I think they want to help. In this case the advice was true, but really had no new information. It’s a perception issue. HR says, “you can come to us with anything.” Excepting fairly narrow scenarios outside of the mechanics of benefits, they generally can do nothing or in “opening a dialog” often make things worse.

            – John Spiegel
            Jul 10 at 19:01







          • 7





            I'd be extremely upset if feedback was solicited anonymously then my comments used against me.

            – Rob Crawford
            Jul 10 at 19:46






          • 2





            @Mars How exactly do you expect OP to produce a "solution" to his lack of a raise or seniors leaving? The solution is to give him (and possibly them) that raise, and it's gotta be produced by the company, not OP.

            – Demonblack
            Jul 11 at 17:00












          • 3





            Why does HR have to be the enemy here? (Not our friend). That sounded like pretty legit advice to give to a friend. "Complaining doesn't solve anything. Do something about it. Trying to fix things is an option, leaving is an option. Being a toxic (coworker or friend) is not an option"

            – Mars
            Jul 10 at 4:17






          • 6





            @Mars "We have had lots of discussion with the team lead and in the team and I have complained about some things (salary, office, team atmosphere, and so on)"...if complaining about things are being "toxic", then we all are toxic. There is a difference between complaining and nagging.

            – Sourav Ghosh
            Jul 10 at 4:31






          • 3





            @Mars Perhaps better phrasing is “useless to the employee” vs. “not a friend”? I often find HR to be likable people and I think they want to help. In this case the advice was true, but really had no new information. It’s a perception issue. HR says, “you can come to us with anything.” Excepting fairly narrow scenarios outside of the mechanics of benefits, they generally can do nothing or in “opening a dialog” often make things worse.

            – John Spiegel
            Jul 10 at 19:01







          • 7





            I'd be extremely upset if feedback was solicited anonymously then my comments used against me.

            – Rob Crawford
            Jul 10 at 19:46






          • 2





            @Mars How exactly do you expect OP to produce a "solution" to his lack of a raise or seniors leaving? The solution is to give him (and possibly them) that raise, and it's gotta be produced by the company, not OP.

            – Demonblack
            Jul 11 at 17:00







          3




          3





          Why does HR have to be the enemy here? (Not our friend). That sounded like pretty legit advice to give to a friend. "Complaining doesn't solve anything. Do something about it. Trying to fix things is an option, leaving is an option. Being a toxic (coworker or friend) is not an option"

          – Mars
          Jul 10 at 4:17





          Why does HR have to be the enemy here? (Not our friend). That sounded like pretty legit advice to give to a friend. "Complaining doesn't solve anything. Do something about it. Trying to fix things is an option, leaving is an option. Being a toxic (coworker or friend) is not an option"

          – Mars
          Jul 10 at 4:17




          6




          6





          @Mars "We have had lots of discussion with the team lead and in the team and I have complained about some things (salary, office, team atmosphere, and so on)"...if complaining about things are being "toxic", then we all are toxic. There is a difference between complaining and nagging.

          – Sourav Ghosh
          Jul 10 at 4:31





          @Mars "We have had lots of discussion with the team lead and in the team and I have complained about some things (salary, office, team atmosphere, and so on)"...if complaining about things are being "toxic", then we all are toxic. There is a difference between complaining and nagging.

          – Sourav Ghosh
          Jul 10 at 4:31




          3




          3





          @Mars Perhaps better phrasing is “useless to the employee” vs. “not a friend”? I often find HR to be likable people and I think they want to help. In this case the advice was true, but really had no new information. It’s a perception issue. HR says, “you can come to us with anything.” Excepting fairly narrow scenarios outside of the mechanics of benefits, they generally can do nothing or in “opening a dialog” often make things worse.

          – John Spiegel
          Jul 10 at 19:01






          @Mars Perhaps better phrasing is “useless to the employee” vs. “not a friend”? I often find HR to be likable people and I think they want to help. In this case the advice was true, but really had no new information. It’s a perception issue. HR says, “you can come to us with anything.” Excepting fairly narrow scenarios outside of the mechanics of benefits, they generally can do nothing or in “opening a dialog” often make things worse.

          – John Spiegel
          Jul 10 at 19:01





          7




          7





          I'd be extremely upset if feedback was solicited anonymously then my comments used against me.

          – Rob Crawford
          Jul 10 at 19:46





          I'd be extremely upset if feedback was solicited anonymously then my comments used against me.

          – Rob Crawford
          Jul 10 at 19:46




          2




          2





          @Mars How exactly do you expect OP to produce a "solution" to his lack of a raise or seniors leaving? The solution is to give him (and possibly them) that raise, and it's gotta be produced by the company, not OP.

          – Demonblack
          Jul 11 at 17:00





          @Mars How exactly do you expect OP to produce a "solution" to his lack of a raise or seniors leaving? The solution is to give him (and possibly them) that raise, and it's gotta be produced by the company, not OP.

          – Demonblack
          Jul 11 at 17:00











          42














          All great answers above. In short yes, you are told to




          deal with it or resign




          I'm a senior developer now (10+ years) but I've been through this stage of struggle in personal development.



          If you've had regular formal reviews, it is a common practice to belittle your achievements and exaggerate your failures, which usually means another yellow/red flag to consider resignation. For example if you had 100 things done right, they'll pick the smallest 3. And if you did 3 things wrong, they will all be on the review, in shiny colors.



          There are some informal phrases that are subtly telling you to resign.



          In short anything that is telling you obvious things about titles and subordination.



          Or anything directly targeted at you and/or which qualities of yours make you a bad fit.



          Below are some example phrases and their loose translation (you may have heard some of these well before the last conversation with HR, so those could have been some yellow/warning flags, if we consider the last conversation a red flag):



          • "You need to understand that" - it is you who needs to understand, not them

          • "I am your manager" ("She/He is your manager") "... architect, team lead etc" - and you are a junior.

          • "People complained about you" - exactly 1 person complained, but let's make a deal out of it, because there is really nothing else against you.

          • "You were late from lunch break by 5min" - well, if nothing else.

          • "Stop being defensive/aggressive" - nobody cares about your opinion/feelings, just follow orders.

          • "You are being very (any negative word)" - no other facts, blame personality, you can't argue this way.

          • "We don't have time for (something)" - we don't care about (something)

          And weirdly enough:



          • "You are a great member of our team", "...very talented developer" etc, especially if you hear this often in 1-on-1 conversations and never in team discussions - means no raise/pay, but the company will tolerate you for the time being.

          I haven't been to the stage when I'm told about an option of moving on, just never waited that long before leaving. However, if you tell them you even remotely consider leaving, in any shape or form - consider yourself written off. They'll just look for a good moment to let you go. So treat them the same, I think it's fair.



          Hope this helps you in future career, so that you can make informed choices sooner. Most important lesson I learnt - if you want to switch jobs and can afford the uncertainty, then go ahead and do it, it will almost always work in your favor, no matter the struggle in between the current you and the success that lies ahead.






          share|improve this answer


















          • 9





            This appears to be a rather good manual for something but not quite on topic for this question. :(

            – Joshua
            Jul 10 at 2:53






          • 7





            This is great advice! Also, never believe your employer when they claim that something you say will be treated anonymously. Especially when they ask for "honest and anonymous feedback", it's usually a trap to identify who they need to deal with.

            – Niko1978
            Jul 10 at 5:57







          • 12





            Another of my personal favorites is "we need you to be a team player." What this actually means is "we need you to do things you were not hired to do, that fall well outside of your core competencies, and we're not willing to put up the time and money to train you in it." (In an actual team, the players have well-defined roles; you don't put your pitcher in the outfield or have Nate hack the computers and Sophie fight the thugs!)

            – Mason Wheeler
            Jul 10 at 12:22






          • 1





            This answer is a pleasent change from the usual ones here. It really resonantes with my experience of reviews. Focussing on small insignificant "problems" despite doing 100 good things, etc. Really is a massive red flag and usually highlights both personality and managerial problems...

            – user9993
            Jul 10 at 12:28






          • 2





            @MasonWheeler great reference! (and I'm proud of myself for getting it before clicking the link.)

            – FreeMan
            Jul 10 at 14:21















          42














          All great answers above. In short yes, you are told to




          deal with it or resign




          I'm a senior developer now (10+ years) but I've been through this stage of struggle in personal development.



          If you've had regular formal reviews, it is a common practice to belittle your achievements and exaggerate your failures, which usually means another yellow/red flag to consider resignation. For example if you had 100 things done right, they'll pick the smallest 3. And if you did 3 things wrong, they will all be on the review, in shiny colors.



          There are some informal phrases that are subtly telling you to resign.



          In short anything that is telling you obvious things about titles and subordination.



          Or anything directly targeted at you and/or which qualities of yours make you a bad fit.



          Below are some example phrases and their loose translation (you may have heard some of these well before the last conversation with HR, so those could have been some yellow/warning flags, if we consider the last conversation a red flag):



          • "You need to understand that" - it is you who needs to understand, not them

          • "I am your manager" ("She/He is your manager") "... architect, team lead etc" - and you are a junior.

          • "People complained about you" - exactly 1 person complained, but let's make a deal out of it, because there is really nothing else against you.

          • "You were late from lunch break by 5min" - well, if nothing else.

          • "Stop being defensive/aggressive" - nobody cares about your opinion/feelings, just follow orders.

          • "You are being very (any negative word)" - no other facts, blame personality, you can't argue this way.

          • "We don't have time for (something)" - we don't care about (something)

          And weirdly enough:



          • "You are a great member of our team", "...very talented developer" etc, especially if you hear this often in 1-on-1 conversations and never in team discussions - means no raise/pay, but the company will tolerate you for the time being.

          I haven't been to the stage when I'm told about an option of moving on, just never waited that long before leaving. However, if you tell them you even remotely consider leaving, in any shape or form - consider yourself written off. They'll just look for a good moment to let you go. So treat them the same, I think it's fair.



          Hope this helps you in future career, so that you can make informed choices sooner. Most important lesson I learnt - if you want to switch jobs and can afford the uncertainty, then go ahead and do it, it will almost always work in your favor, no matter the struggle in between the current you and the success that lies ahead.






          share|improve this answer


















          • 9





            This appears to be a rather good manual for something but not quite on topic for this question. :(

            – Joshua
            Jul 10 at 2:53






          • 7





            This is great advice! Also, never believe your employer when they claim that something you say will be treated anonymously. Especially when they ask for "honest and anonymous feedback", it's usually a trap to identify who they need to deal with.

            – Niko1978
            Jul 10 at 5:57







          • 12





            Another of my personal favorites is "we need you to be a team player." What this actually means is "we need you to do things you were not hired to do, that fall well outside of your core competencies, and we're not willing to put up the time and money to train you in it." (In an actual team, the players have well-defined roles; you don't put your pitcher in the outfield or have Nate hack the computers and Sophie fight the thugs!)

            – Mason Wheeler
            Jul 10 at 12:22






          • 1





            This answer is a pleasent change from the usual ones here. It really resonantes with my experience of reviews. Focussing on small insignificant "problems" despite doing 100 good things, etc. Really is a massive red flag and usually highlights both personality and managerial problems...

            – user9993
            Jul 10 at 12:28






          • 2





            @MasonWheeler great reference! (and I'm proud of myself for getting it before clicking the link.)

            – FreeMan
            Jul 10 at 14:21













          42












          42








          42







          All great answers above. In short yes, you are told to




          deal with it or resign




          I'm a senior developer now (10+ years) but I've been through this stage of struggle in personal development.



          If you've had regular formal reviews, it is a common practice to belittle your achievements and exaggerate your failures, which usually means another yellow/red flag to consider resignation. For example if you had 100 things done right, they'll pick the smallest 3. And if you did 3 things wrong, they will all be on the review, in shiny colors.



          There are some informal phrases that are subtly telling you to resign.



          In short anything that is telling you obvious things about titles and subordination.



          Or anything directly targeted at you and/or which qualities of yours make you a bad fit.



          Below are some example phrases and their loose translation (you may have heard some of these well before the last conversation with HR, so those could have been some yellow/warning flags, if we consider the last conversation a red flag):



          • "You need to understand that" - it is you who needs to understand, not them

          • "I am your manager" ("She/He is your manager") "... architect, team lead etc" - and you are a junior.

          • "People complained about you" - exactly 1 person complained, but let's make a deal out of it, because there is really nothing else against you.

          • "You were late from lunch break by 5min" - well, if nothing else.

          • "Stop being defensive/aggressive" - nobody cares about your opinion/feelings, just follow orders.

          • "You are being very (any negative word)" - no other facts, blame personality, you can't argue this way.

          • "We don't have time for (something)" - we don't care about (something)

          And weirdly enough:



          • "You are a great member of our team", "...very talented developer" etc, especially if you hear this often in 1-on-1 conversations and never in team discussions - means no raise/pay, but the company will tolerate you for the time being.

          I haven't been to the stage when I'm told about an option of moving on, just never waited that long before leaving. However, if you tell them you even remotely consider leaving, in any shape or form - consider yourself written off. They'll just look for a good moment to let you go. So treat them the same, I think it's fair.



          Hope this helps you in future career, so that you can make informed choices sooner. Most important lesson I learnt - if you want to switch jobs and can afford the uncertainty, then go ahead and do it, it will almost always work in your favor, no matter the struggle in between the current you and the success that lies ahead.






          share|improve this answer













          All great answers above. In short yes, you are told to




          deal with it or resign




          I'm a senior developer now (10+ years) but I've been through this stage of struggle in personal development.



          If you've had regular formal reviews, it is a common practice to belittle your achievements and exaggerate your failures, which usually means another yellow/red flag to consider resignation. For example if you had 100 things done right, they'll pick the smallest 3. And if you did 3 things wrong, they will all be on the review, in shiny colors.



          There are some informal phrases that are subtly telling you to resign.



          In short anything that is telling you obvious things about titles and subordination.



          Or anything directly targeted at you and/or which qualities of yours make you a bad fit.



          Below are some example phrases and their loose translation (you may have heard some of these well before the last conversation with HR, so those could have been some yellow/warning flags, if we consider the last conversation a red flag):



          • "You need to understand that" - it is you who needs to understand, not them

          • "I am your manager" ("She/He is your manager") "... architect, team lead etc" - and you are a junior.

          • "People complained about you" - exactly 1 person complained, but let's make a deal out of it, because there is really nothing else against you.

          • "You were late from lunch break by 5min" - well, if nothing else.

          • "Stop being defensive/aggressive" - nobody cares about your opinion/feelings, just follow orders.

          • "You are being very (any negative word)" - no other facts, blame personality, you can't argue this way.

          • "We don't have time for (something)" - we don't care about (something)

          And weirdly enough:



          • "You are a great member of our team", "...very talented developer" etc, especially if you hear this often in 1-on-1 conversations and never in team discussions - means no raise/pay, but the company will tolerate you for the time being.

          I haven't been to the stage when I'm told about an option of moving on, just never waited that long before leaving. However, if you tell them you even remotely consider leaving, in any shape or form - consider yourself written off. They'll just look for a good moment to let you go. So treat them the same, I think it's fair.



          Hope this helps you in future career, so that you can make informed choices sooner. Most important lesson I learnt - if you want to switch jobs and can afford the uncertainty, then go ahead and do it, it will almost always work in your favor, no matter the struggle in between the current you and the success that lies ahead.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered Jul 10 at 1:23









          NeoliskNeolisk

          1,5081 gold badge10 silver badges13 bronze badges




          1,5081 gold badge10 silver badges13 bronze badges







          • 9





            This appears to be a rather good manual for something but not quite on topic for this question. :(

            – Joshua
            Jul 10 at 2:53






          • 7





            This is great advice! Also, never believe your employer when they claim that something you say will be treated anonymously. Especially when they ask for "honest and anonymous feedback", it's usually a trap to identify who they need to deal with.

            – Niko1978
            Jul 10 at 5:57







          • 12





            Another of my personal favorites is "we need you to be a team player." What this actually means is "we need you to do things you were not hired to do, that fall well outside of your core competencies, and we're not willing to put up the time and money to train you in it." (In an actual team, the players have well-defined roles; you don't put your pitcher in the outfield or have Nate hack the computers and Sophie fight the thugs!)

            – Mason Wheeler
            Jul 10 at 12:22






          • 1





            This answer is a pleasent change from the usual ones here. It really resonantes with my experience of reviews. Focussing on small insignificant "problems" despite doing 100 good things, etc. Really is a massive red flag and usually highlights both personality and managerial problems...

            – user9993
            Jul 10 at 12:28






          • 2





            @MasonWheeler great reference! (and I'm proud of myself for getting it before clicking the link.)

            – FreeMan
            Jul 10 at 14:21












          • 9





            This appears to be a rather good manual for something but not quite on topic for this question. :(

            – Joshua
            Jul 10 at 2:53






          • 7





            This is great advice! Also, never believe your employer when they claim that something you say will be treated anonymously. Especially when they ask for "honest and anonymous feedback", it's usually a trap to identify who they need to deal with.

            – Niko1978
            Jul 10 at 5:57







          • 12





            Another of my personal favorites is "we need you to be a team player." What this actually means is "we need you to do things you were not hired to do, that fall well outside of your core competencies, and we're not willing to put up the time and money to train you in it." (In an actual team, the players have well-defined roles; you don't put your pitcher in the outfield or have Nate hack the computers and Sophie fight the thugs!)

            – Mason Wheeler
            Jul 10 at 12:22






          • 1





            This answer is a pleasent change from the usual ones here. It really resonantes with my experience of reviews. Focussing on small insignificant "problems" despite doing 100 good things, etc. Really is a massive red flag and usually highlights both personality and managerial problems...

            – user9993
            Jul 10 at 12:28






          • 2





            @MasonWheeler great reference! (and I'm proud of myself for getting it before clicking the link.)

            – FreeMan
            Jul 10 at 14:21







          9




          9





          This appears to be a rather good manual for something but not quite on topic for this question. :(

          – Joshua
          Jul 10 at 2:53





          This appears to be a rather good manual for something but not quite on topic for this question. :(

          – Joshua
          Jul 10 at 2:53




          7




          7





          This is great advice! Also, never believe your employer when they claim that something you say will be treated anonymously. Especially when they ask for "honest and anonymous feedback", it's usually a trap to identify who they need to deal with.

          – Niko1978
          Jul 10 at 5:57






          This is great advice! Also, never believe your employer when they claim that something you say will be treated anonymously. Especially when they ask for "honest and anonymous feedback", it's usually a trap to identify who they need to deal with.

          – Niko1978
          Jul 10 at 5:57





          12




          12





          Another of my personal favorites is "we need you to be a team player." What this actually means is "we need you to do things you were not hired to do, that fall well outside of your core competencies, and we're not willing to put up the time and money to train you in it." (In an actual team, the players have well-defined roles; you don't put your pitcher in the outfield or have Nate hack the computers and Sophie fight the thugs!)

          – Mason Wheeler
          Jul 10 at 12:22





          Another of my personal favorites is "we need you to be a team player." What this actually means is "we need you to do things you were not hired to do, that fall well outside of your core competencies, and we're not willing to put up the time and money to train you in it." (In an actual team, the players have well-defined roles; you don't put your pitcher in the outfield or have Nate hack the computers and Sophie fight the thugs!)

          – Mason Wheeler
          Jul 10 at 12:22




          1




          1





          This answer is a pleasent change from the usual ones here. It really resonantes with my experience of reviews. Focussing on small insignificant "problems" despite doing 100 good things, etc. Really is a massive red flag and usually highlights both personality and managerial problems...

          – user9993
          Jul 10 at 12:28





          This answer is a pleasent change from the usual ones here. It really resonantes with my experience of reviews. Focussing on small insignificant "problems" despite doing 100 good things, etc. Really is a massive red flag and usually highlights both personality and managerial problems...

          – user9993
          Jul 10 at 12:28




          2




          2





          @MasonWheeler great reference! (and I'm proud of myself for getting it before clicking the link.)

          – FreeMan
          Jul 10 at 14:21





          @MasonWheeler great reference! (and I'm proud of myself for getting it before clicking the link.)

          – FreeMan
          Jul 10 at 14:21











          26














          I believe that the message was more like, "We aren't going to be able to restructure every aspect of your work experience to your satisfaction, so if you're serious about these complaints, you should just move on."



          So it may be a gentle attempt to get to commit to dealing with the reality of things staying as they are or commit to leaving, but I wouldn't call it a direct call for you to resign.



          I seems like they have noticed that you are making multiple complaints about wide reaching issues and want you to know that they are unable or unwilling to expend the resources to resolve your current issues.






          share|improve this answer



























            26














            I believe that the message was more like, "We aren't going to be able to restructure every aspect of your work experience to your satisfaction, so if you're serious about these complaints, you should just move on."



            So it may be a gentle attempt to get to commit to dealing with the reality of things staying as they are or commit to leaving, but I wouldn't call it a direct call for you to resign.



            I seems like they have noticed that you are making multiple complaints about wide reaching issues and want you to know that they are unable or unwilling to expend the resources to resolve your current issues.






            share|improve this answer

























              26












              26








              26







              I believe that the message was more like, "We aren't going to be able to restructure every aspect of your work experience to your satisfaction, so if you're serious about these complaints, you should just move on."



              So it may be a gentle attempt to get to commit to dealing with the reality of things staying as they are or commit to leaving, but I wouldn't call it a direct call for you to resign.



              I seems like they have noticed that you are making multiple complaints about wide reaching issues and want you to know that they are unable or unwilling to expend the resources to resolve your current issues.






              share|improve this answer













              I believe that the message was more like, "We aren't going to be able to restructure every aspect of your work experience to your satisfaction, so if you're serious about these complaints, you should just move on."



              So it may be a gentle attempt to get to commit to dealing with the reality of things staying as they are or commit to leaving, but I wouldn't call it a direct call for you to resign.



              I seems like they have noticed that you are making multiple complaints about wide reaching issues and want you to know that they are unable or unwilling to expend the resources to resolve your current issues.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered Jul 9 at 17:03









              MegMeg

              1,1151 gold badge4 silver badges10 bronze badges




              1,1151 gold badge4 silver badges10 bronze badges





















                  11














                  Going to throw in another interpretation:




                  There are issues in the company. There are reasons for those issues, as we have previously discussed. We can't magically make them go away, so either be part of the solution, adapt, be silent (not specifically mentioned as an option), or go away.




                  Complainers accomplish little. It sounds like you've already spoken about the root reasons behind those complaints, and you don't seem to have a way to fix it.



                  Ideally, you'd help fix things. Companies like that. They usually even reward that.



                  But not everything can be fixed. And if you feel that is the case, or that fixing things isn't worth the effort, then finding a better environment is probably in your best interest.




                  I wouldn't consider that pressure from your HR rep--more like genuine career advice.






                  share|improve this answer


















                  • 8





                    "Ideally, you'd help fix things. Companies like that. They usually even reward that." This doesn't really align with my experience - usually anyone wishing to bring change however small or helpful it is are (unfairly) viewed negatively. Maybe I've just worked for bad companies...

                    – user9993
                    Jul 10 at 12:30






                  • 2





                    Let me concurr: I've seen plenty of business situations where managers claim they want to fix things, but when it comes down to it they don't actually want to make the changes necessary to fix things. (Many, perhaps most, people are uncomfortable with change.)

                    – Curt J. Sampson
                    Jul 11 at 0:43






                  • 1





                    @user9993 I think that mostly depends on whether or not the company sees it as an actual problem. I think we all often feel that resistance to making things better when it requires some kind of change, IF things weren't broken to begin with. I think you typically have more luck when you present a plan, a small budget, and offer to do all/most of the work

                    – Mars
                    Jul 11 at 5:30






                  • 2





                    This is the only answer so far that accounts for the "Change the things that do not work" part of the non-quitting option. All the others focus just on the "...and adjust your behavior" part of that option. I agree with this answer in that I don't think the HR rep was saying "shut up or get out". I think it's more like "help change what you can and adjust your expectations where things can't change or your behaviors if you're at fault, or find a better fit elsewhere if that doesn't work for you". It really didn't sound toxic to me--surprisingly gracious, actually. Good answer.

                    – bob
                    Jul 11 at 16:31
















                  11














                  Going to throw in another interpretation:




                  There are issues in the company. There are reasons for those issues, as we have previously discussed. We can't magically make them go away, so either be part of the solution, adapt, be silent (not specifically mentioned as an option), or go away.




                  Complainers accomplish little. It sounds like you've already spoken about the root reasons behind those complaints, and you don't seem to have a way to fix it.



                  Ideally, you'd help fix things. Companies like that. They usually even reward that.



                  But not everything can be fixed. And if you feel that is the case, or that fixing things isn't worth the effort, then finding a better environment is probably in your best interest.




                  I wouldn't consider that pressure from your HR rep--more like genuine career advice.






                  share|improve this answer


















                  • 8





                    "Ideally, you'd help fix things. Companies like that. They usually even reward that." This doesn't really align with my experience - usually anyone wishing to bring change however small or helpful it is are (unfairly) viewed negatively. Maybe I've just worked for bad companies...

                    – user9993
                    Jul 10 at 12:30






                  • 2





                    Let me concurr: I've seen plenty of business situations where managers claim they want to fix things, but when it comes down to it they don't actually want to make the changes necessary to fix things. (Many, perhaps most, people are uncomfortable with change.)

                    – Curt J. Sampson
                    Jul 11 at 0:43






                  • 1





                    @user9993 I think that mostly depends on whether or not the company sees it as an actual problem. I think we all often feel that resistance to making things better when it requires some kind of change, IF things weren't broken to begin with. I think you typically have more luck when you present a plan, a small budget, and offer to do all/most of the work

                    – Mars
                    Jul 11 at 5:30






                  • 2





                    This is the only answer so far that accounts for the "Change the things that do not work" part of the non-quitting option. All the others focus just on the "...and adjust your behavior" part of that option. I agree with this answer in that I don't think the HR rep was saying "shut up or get out". I think it's more like "help change what you can and adjust your expectations where things can't change or your behaviors if you're at fault, or find a better fit elsewhere if that doesn't work for you". It really didn't sound toxic to me--surprisingly gracious, actually. Good answer.

                    – bob
                    Jul 11 at 16:31














                  11












                  11








                  11







                  Going to throw in another interpretation:




                  There are issues in the company. There are reasons for those issues, as we have previously discussed. We can't magically make them go away, so either be part of the solution, adapt, be silent (not specifically mentioned as an option), or go away.




                  Complainers accomplish little. It sounds like you've already spoken about the root reasons behind those complaints, and you don't seem to have a way to fix it.



                  Ideally, you'd help fix things. Companies like that. They usually even reward that.



                  But not everything can be fixed. And if you feel that is the case, or that fixing things isn't worth the effort, then finding a better environment is probably in your best interest.




                  I wouldn't consider that pressure from your HR rep--more like genuine career advice.






                  share|improve this answer













                  Going to throw in another interpretation:




                  There are issues in the company. There are reasons for those issues, as we have previously discussed. We can't magically make them go away, so either be part of the solution, adapt, be silent (not specifically mentioned as an option), or go away.




                  Complainers accomplish little. It sounds like you've already spoken about the root reasons behind those complaints, and you don't seem to have a way to fix it.



                  Ideally, you'd help fix things. Companies like that. They usually even reward that.



                  But not everything can be fixed. And if you feel that is the case, or that fixing things isn't worth the effort, then finding a better environment is probably in your best interest.




                  I wouldn't consider that pressure from your HR rep--more like genuine career advice.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered Jul 10 at 4:47









                  MarsMars

                  1,2762 silver badges14 bronze badges




                  1,2762 silver badges14 bronze badges







                  • 8





                    "Ideally, you'd help fix things. Companies like that. They usually even reward that." This doesn't really align with my experience - usually anyone wishing to bring change however small or helpful it is are (unfairly) viewed negatively. Maybe I've just worked for bad companies...

                    – user9993
                    Jul 10 at 12:30






                  • 2





                    Let me concurr: I've seen plenty of business situations where managers claim they want to fix things, but when it comes down to it they don't actually want to make the changes necessary to fix things. (Many, perhaps most, people are uncomfortable with change.)

                    – Curt J. Sampson
                    Jul 11 at 0:43






                  • 1





                    @user9993 I think that mostly depends on whether or not the company sees it as an actual problem. I think we all often feel that resistance to making things better when it requires some kind of change, IF things weren't broken to begin with. I think you typically have more luck when you present a plan, a small budget, and offer to do all/most of the work

                    – Mars
                    Jul 11 at 5:30






                  • 2





                    This is the only answer so far that accounts for the "Change the things that do not work" part of the non-quitting option. All the others focus just on the "...and adjust your behavior" part of that option. I agree with this answer in that I don't think the HR rep was saying "shut up or get out". I think it's more like "help change what you can and adjust your expectations where things can't change or your behaviors if you're at fault, or find a better fit elsewhere if that doesn't work for you". It really didn't sound toxic to me--surprisingly gracious, actually. Good answer.

                    – bob
                    Jul 11 at 16:31













                  • 8





                    "Ideally, you'd help fix things. Companies like that. They usually even reward that." This doesn't really align with my experience - usually anyone wishing to bring change however small or helpful it is are (unfairly) viewed negatively. Maybe I've just worked for bad companies...

                    – user9993
                    Jul 10 at 12:30






                  • 2





                    Let me concurr: I've seen plenty of business situations where managers claim they want to fix things, but when it comes down to it they don't actually want to make the changes necessary to fix things. (Many, perhaps most, people are uncomfortable with change.)

                    – Curt J. Sampson
                    Jul 11 at 0:43






                  • 1





                    @user9993 I think that mostly depends on whether or not the company sees it as an actual problem. I think we all often feel that resistance to making things better when it requires some kind of change, IF things weren't broken to begin with. I think you typically have more luck when you present a plan, a small budget, and offer to do all/most of the work

                    – Mars
                    Jul 11 at 5:30






                  • 2





                    This is the only answer so far that accounts for the "Change the things that do not work" part of the non-quitting option. All the others focus just on the "...and adjust your behavior" part of that option. I agree with this answer in that I don't think the HR rep was saying "shut up or get out". I think it's more like "help change what you can and adjust your expectations where things can't change or your behaviors if you're at fault, or find a better fit elsewhere if that doesn't work for you". It really didn't sound toxic to me--surprisingly gracious, actually. Good answer.

                    – bob
                    Jul 11 at 16:31








                  8




                  8





                  "Ideally, you'd help fix things. Companies like that. They usually even reward that." This doesn't really align with my experience - usually anyone wishing to bring change however small or helpful it is are (unfairly) viewed negatively. Maybe I've just worked for bad companies...

                  – user9993
                  Jul 10 at 12:30





                  "Ideally, you'd help fix things. Companies like that. They usually even reward that." This doesn't really align with my experience - usually anyone wishing to bring change however small or helpful it is are (unfairly) viewed negatively. Maybe I've just worked for bad companies...

                  – user9993
                  Jul 10 at 12:30




                  2




                  2





                  Let me concurr: I've seen plenty of business situations where managers claim they want to fix things, but when it comes down to it they don't actually want to make the changes necessary to fix things. (Many, perhaps most, people are uncomfortable with change.)

                  – Curt J. Sampson
                  Jul 11 at 0:43





                  Let me concurr: I've seen plenty of business situations where managers claim they want to fix things, but when it comes down to it they don't actually want to make the changes necessary to fix things. (Many, perhaps most, people are uncomfortable with change.)

                  – Curt J. Sampson
                  Jul 11 at 0:43




                  1




                  1





                  @user9993 I think that mostly depends on whether or not the company sees it as an actual problem. I think we all often feel that resistance to making things better when it requires some kind of change, IF things weren't broken to begin with. I think you typically have more luck when you present a plan, a small budget, and offer to do all/most of the work

                  – Mars
                  Jul 11 at 5:30





                  @user9993 I think that mostly depends on whether or not the company sees it as an actual problem. I think we all often feel that resistance to making things better when it requires some kind of change, IF things weren't broken to begin with. I think you typically have more luck when you present a plan, a small budget, and offer to do all/most of the work

                  – Mars
                  Jul 11 at 5:30




                  2




                  2





                  This is the only answer so far that accounts for the "Change the things that do not work" part of the non-quitting option. All the others focus just on the "...and adjust your behavior" part of that option. I agree with this answer in that I don't think the HR rep was saying "shut up or get out". I think it's more like "help change what you can and adjust your expectations where things can't change or your behaviors if you're at fault, or find a better fit elsewhere if that doesn't work for you". It really didn't sound toxic to me--surprisingly gracious, actually. Good answer.

                  – bob
                  Jul 11 at 16:31






                  This is the only answer so far that accounts for the "Change the things that do not work" part of the non-quitting option. All the others focus just on the "...and adjust your behavior" part of that option. I agree with this answer in that I don't think the HR rep was saying "shut up or get out". I think it's more like "help change what you can and adjust your expectations where things can't change or your behaviors if you're at fault, or find a better fit elsewhere if that doesn't work for you". It really didn't sound toxic to me--surprisingly gracious, actually. Good answer.

                  – bob
                  Jul 11 at 16:31












                  7














                  HR are not stupid enough to directly pressure you to leave. That may be illegal in your country anyway. But I would translate the coded message as



                  "The company is not going to change any time soon. That piece of information may be useful to you when making your own decision about your future career plans."



                  Informally, you have already been marked down as a potential trouble maker and likely leaver. Of course you won't find those words on any records that you could produce in an industrial relations tribunal for unfair dismissal, but the objective record of what you have done and said - and the fact that this meeting with HR took place - won't be forgotten if you stay.






                  share|improve this answer























                  • I translated the message as "yes, the company is going down. Abandon ship as soon as you can."

                    – Robin Bennett
                    Jul 10 at 13:58






                  • 2





                    HR can be very explicit with the "pressure to leave" thing. HR serves the company. They are also very good at serving the company.

                    – Julie in Austin
                    Jul 10 at 18:47






                  • 1





                    "won't be forgotten if you stay" -- chilling and accurate -- perhaps the best part of your answer and a great phrase to end with.

                    – user23715
                    Jul 10 at 20:05















                  7














                  HR are not stupid enough to directly pressure you to leave. That may be illegal in your country anyway. But I would translate the coded message as



                  "The company is not going to change any time soon. That piece of information may be useful to you when making your own decision about your future career plans."



                  Informally, you have already been marked down as a potential trouble maker and likely leaver. Of course you won't find those words on any records that you could produce in an industrial relations tribunal for unfair dismissal, but the objective record of what you have done and said - and the fact that this meeting with HR took place - won't be forgotten if you stay.






                  share|improve this answer























                  • I translated the message as "yes, the company is going down. Abandon ship as soon as you can."

                    – Robin Bennett
                    Jul 10 at 13:58






                  • 2





                    HR can be very explicit with the "pressure to leave" thing. HR serves the company. They are also very good at serving the company.

                    – Julie in Austin
                    Jul 10 at 18:47






                  • 1





                    "won't be forgotten if you stay" -- chilling and accurate -- perhaps the best part of your answer and a great phrase to end with.

                    – user23715
                    Jul 10 at 20:05













                  7












                  7








                  7







                  HR are not stupid enough to directly pressure you to leave. That may be illegal in your country anyway. But I would translate the coded message as



                  "The company is not going to change any time soon. That piece of information may be useful to you when making your own decision about your future career plans."



                  Informally, you have already been marked down as a potential trouble maker and likely leaver. Of course you won't find those words on any records that you could produce in an industrial relations tribunal for unfair dismissal, but the objective record of what you have done and said - and the fact that this meeting with HR took place - won't be forgotten if you stay.






                  share|improve this answer













                  HR are not stupid enough to directly pressure you to leave. That may be illegal in your country anyway. But I would translate the coded message as



                  "The company is not going to change any time soon. That piece of information may be useful to you when making your own decision about your future career plans."



                  Informally, you have already been marked down as a potential trouble maker and likely leaver. Of course you won't find those words on any records that you could produce in an industrial relations tribunal for unfair dismissal, but the objective record of what you have done and said - and the fact that this meeting with HR took place - won't be forgotten if you stay.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered Jul 10 at 10:42









                  alephzeroalephzero

                  3,6641 gold badge8 silver badges19 bronze badges




                  3,6641 gold badge8 silver badges19 bronze badges












                  • I translated the message as "yes, the company is going down. Abandon ship as soon as you can."

                    – Robin Bennett
                    Jul 10 at 13:58






                  • 2





                    HR can be very explicit with the "pressure to leave" thing. HR serves the company. They are also very good at serving the company.

                    – Julie in Austin
                    Jul 10 at 18:47






                  • 1





                    "won't be forgotten if you stay" -- chilling and accurate -- perhaps the best part of your answer and a great phrase to end with.

                    – user23715
                    Jul 10 at 20:05

















                  • I translated the message as "yes, the company is going down. Abandon ship as soon as you can."

                    – Robin Bennett
                    Jul 10 at 13:58






                  • 2





                    HR can be very explicit with the "pressure to leave" thing. HR serves the company. They are also very good at serving the company.

                    – Julie in Austin
                    Jul 10 at 18:47






                  • 1





                    "won't be forgotten if you stay" -- chilling and accurate -- perhaps the best part of your answer and a great phrase to end with.

                    – user23715
                    Jul 10 at 20:05
















                  I translated the message as "yes, the company is going down. Abandon ship as soon as you can."

                  – Robin Bennett
                  Jul 10 at 13:58





                  I translated the message as "yes, the company is going down. Abandon ship as soon as you can."

                  – Robin Bennett
                  Jul 10 at 13:58




                  2




                  2





                  HR can be very explicit with the "pressure to leave" thing. HR serves the company. They are also very good at serving the company.

                  – Julie in Austin
                  Jul 10 at 18:47





                  HR can be very explicit with the "pressure to leave" thing. HR serves the company. They are also very good at serving the company.

                  – Julie in Austin
                  Jul 10 at 18:47




                  1




                  1





                  "won't be forgotten if you stay" -- chilling and accurate -- perhaps the best part of your answer and a great phrase to end with.

                  – user23715
                  Jul 10 at 20:05





                  "won't be forgotten if you stay" -- chilling and accurate -- perhaps the best part of your answer and a great phrase to end with.

                  – user23715
                  Jul 10 at 20:05











                  3














                  To be clear here, @PagMax has already provided a perfect answer to the main question - whether you are 'subtly being told to resign' or not.



                  The answer is - you're being told to either accept the company's practices or resign.



                  Which is a subtle way of saying that your demands are not going to be met by the company.



                  Do not change your current course of action



                  In your question, you describe how you are subtly looking for work elsewhere while keeping your current job.



                  You should continue to do this. It is apparent that you are dissatisfied with your working conditions, and HR has made it clear to you that those conditions are not going to change.



                  Do not be pressured into resigning early - provide your two-weeks resignation (assuming this is the standard in your geographic region) only when you have a new job lined up.



                  HR does not want to be paying into a resource that will dry up shortly - but that is their prerogative, not yours. Your prerogative is keeping this job up until you find better work, and only then resigning.






                  share|improve this answer



























                    3














                    To be clear here, @PagMax has already provided a perfect answer to the main question - whether you are 'subtly being told to resign' or not.



                    The answer is - you're being told to either accept the company's practices or resign.



                    Which is a subtle way of saying that your demands are not going to be met by the company.



                    Do not change your current course of action



                    In your question, you describe how you are subtly looking for work elsewhere while keeping your current job.



                    You should continue to do this. It is apparent that you are dissatisfied with your working conditions, and HR has made it clear to you that those conditions are not going to change.



                    Do not be pressured into resigning early - provide your two-weeks resignation (assuming this is the standard in your geographic region) only when you have a new job lined up.



                    HR does not want to be paying into a resource that will dry up shortly - but that is their prerogative, not yours. Your prerogative is keeping this job up until you find better work, and only then resigning.






                    share|improve this answer

























                      3












                      3








                      3







                      To be clear here, @PagMax has already provided a perfect answer to the main question - whether you are 'subtly being told to resign' or not.



                      The answer is - you're being told to either accept the company's practices or resign.



                      Which is a subtle way of saying that your demands are not going to be met by the company.



                      Do not change your current course of action



                      In your question, you describe how you are subtly looking for work elsewhere while keeping your current job.



                      You should continue to do this. It is apparent that you are dissatisfied with your working conditions, and HR has made it clear to you that those conditions are not going to change.



                      Do not be pressured into resigning early - provide your two-weeks resignation (assuming this is the standard in your geographic region) only when you have a new job lined up.



                      HR does not want to be paying into a resource that will dry up shortly - but that is their prerogative, not yours. Your prerogative is keeping this job up until you find better work, and only then resigning.






                      share|improve this answer













                      To be clear here, @PagMax has already provided a perfect answer to the main question - whether you are 'subtly being told to resign' or not.



                      The answer is - you're being told to either accept the company's practices or resign.



                      Which is a subtle way of saying that your demands are not going to be met by the company.



                      Do not change your current course of action



                      In your question, you describe how you are subtly looking for work elsewhere while keeping your current job.



                      You should continue to do this. It is apparent that you are dissatisfied with your working conditions, and HR has made it clear to you that those conditions are not going to change.



                      Do not be pressured into resigning early - provide your two-weeks resignation (assuming this is the standard in your geographic region) only when you have a new job lined up.



                      HR does not want to be paying into a resource that will dry up shortly - but that is their prerogative, not yours. Your prerogative is keeping this job up until you find better work, and only then resigning.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered Jul 11 at 12:56









                      ZibbobzZibbobz

                      7,1575 gold badges26 silver badges57 bronze badges




                      7,1575 gold badges26 silver badges57 bronze badges





















                          1














                          No actually it's more complex than that. She clearly told you that you might resign or possibly get fired as well! The both sides need to make it work that you mention plus the metaphor of the relationship is the important part. It sends a clear message that the bullet points work both ways. Now combining this with your bullet points we can translate as follows:



                          • Both parties of the relationship change the things that do not work and adjust their behavior.

                          • If one one of them is unhappy moves on and the relationship is broken.

                          Having that in mind she also told you that the raise thing is a misunderstanding so it's a clear sign that they are willing to make changes from their side. The ball is in your court now and you need to decide:



                          1. Is this step enough for you to keep the relationship?

                          2. If the answer to 1. is yes, then do you want to make changes as well and ask if there is something from your side to change?

                          I skip the "no" part in 1. as you already said that you are thinking of leaving. In my opinion and without knowing the details of your conversation, she seems to me very professional and diplomatic. If only I had half of this professionalism and even half of this "subtlety" in the jobs that I've been, I would have been a very happy person.






                          share|improve this answer



























                            1














                            No actually it's more complex than that. She clearly told you that you might resign or possibly get fired as well! The both sides need to make it work that you mention plus the metaphor of the relationship is the important part. It sends a clear message that the bullet points work both ways. Now combining this with your bullet points we can translate as follows:



                            • Both parties of the relationship change the things that do not work and adjust their behavior.

                            • If one one of them is unhappy moves on and the relationship is broken.

                            Having that in mind she also told you that the raise thing is a misunderstanding so it's a clear sign that they are willing to make changes from their side. The ball is in your court now and you need to decide:



                            1. Is this step enough for you to keep the relationship?

                            2. If the answer to 1. is yes, then do you want to make changes as well and ask if there is something from your side to change?

                            I skip the "no" part in 1. as you already said that you are thinking of leaving. In my opinion and without knowing the details of your conversation, she seems to me very professional and diplomatic. If only I had half of this professionalism and even half of this "subtlety" in the jobs that I've been, I would have been a very happy person.






                            share|improve this answer

























                              1












                              1








                              1







                              No actually it's more complex than that. She clearly told you that you might resign or possibly get fired as well! The both sides need to make it work that you mention plus the metaphor of the relationship is the important part. It sends a clear message that the bullet points work both ways. Now combining this with your bullet points we can translate as follows:



                              • Both parties of the relationship change the things that do not work and adjust their behavior.

                              • If one one of them is unhappy moves on and the relationship is broken.

                              Having that in mind she also told you that the raise thing is a misunderstanding so it's a clear sign that they are willing to make changes from their side. The ball is in your court now and you need to decide:



                              1. Is this step enough for you to keep the relationship?

                              2. If the answer to 1. is yes, then do you want to make changes as well and ask if there is something from your side to change?

                              I skip the "no" part in 1. as you already said that you are thinking of leaving. In my opinion and without knowing the details of your conversation, she seems to me very professional and diplomatic. If only I had half of this professionalism and even half of this "subtlety" in the jobs that I've been, I would have been a very happy person.






                              share|improve this answer













                              No actually it's more complex than that. She clearly told you that you might resign or possibly get fired as well! The both sides need to make it work that you mention plus the metaphor of the relationship is the important part. It sends a clear message that the bullet points work both ways. Now combining this with your bullet points we can translate as follows:



                              • Both parties of the relationship change the things that do not work and adjust their behavior.

                              • If one one of them is unhappy moves on and the relationship is broken.

                              Having that in mind she also told you that the raise thing is a misunderstanding so it's a clear sign that they are willing to make changes from their side. The ball is in your court now and you need to decide:



                              1. Is this step enough for you to keep the relationship?

                              2. If the answer to 1. is yes, then do you want to make changes as well and ask if there is something from your side to change?

                              I skip the "no" part in 1. as you already said that you are thinking of leaving. In my opinion and without knowing the details of your conversation, she seems to me very professional and diplomatic. If only I had half of this professionalism and even half of this "subtlety" in the jobs that I've been, I would have been a very happy person.







                              share|improve this answer












                              share|improve this answer



                              share|improve this answer










                              answered Jul 13 at 10:39









                              Stelios AdamantidisStelios Adamantidis

                              1607 bronze badges




                              1607 bronze badges





















                                  0














                                  She gave you the freedom to interpret it as you wish.



                                  So is it. If she had wanted to fire you, she had communicated that. If she formulates unclear, that means that she does not want to communicate what she did not. They are the experts (in theory) of the personal matters and not you.



                                  Of course you have all the reasons to start to check your alternatives, it would be so even without this HR talk.



                                  But, you have not got a clear message to start to seek your next job.



                                  Other answerers would say "leave", but I think it is easy to give ideas for others, if not we need to accept the consequences.



                                  In your case, what I would do: I would fight for my job until the last shot - but, I would also seek for the next one, for the case of a firing.



                                  Don't resign for an unclear HR statement. Don't resign even for a clear one. Resign only if you already have your new job, and it is really much better than your current one.






                                  share|improve this answer



























                                    0














                                    She gave you the freedom to interpret it as you wish.



                                    So is it. If she had wanted to fire you, she had communicated that. If she formulates unclear, that means that she does not want to communicate what she did not. They are the experts (in theory) of the personal matters and not you.



                                    Of course you have all the reasons to start to check your alternatives, it would be so even without this HR talk.



                                    But, you have not got a clear message to start to seek your next job.



                                    Other answerers would say "leave", but I think it is easy to give ideas for others, if not we need to accept the consequences.



                                    In your case, what I would do: I would fight for my job until the last shot - but, I would also seek for the next one, for the case of a firing.



                                    Don't resign for an unclear HR statement. Don't resign even for a clear one. Resign only if you already have your new job, and it is really much better than your current one.






                                    share|improve this answer

























                                      0












                                      0








                                      0







                                      She gave you the freedom to interpret it as you wish.



                                      So is it. If she had wanted to fire you, she had communicated that. If she formulates unclear, that means that she does not want to communicate what she did not. They are the experts (in theory) of the personal matters and not you.



                                      Of course you have all the reasons to start to check your alternatives, it would be so even without this HR talk.



                                      But, you have not got a clear message to start to seek your next job.



                                      Other answerers would say "leave", but I think it is easy to give ideas for others, if not we need to accept the consequences.



                                      In your case, what I would do: I would fight for my job until the last shot - but, I would also seek for the next one, for the case of a firing.



                                      Don't resign for an unclear HR statement. Don't resign even for a clear one. Resign only if you already have your new job, and it is really much better than your current one.






                                      share|improve this answer













                                      She gave you the freedom to interpret it as you wish.



                                      So is it. If she had wanted to fire you, she had communicated that. If she formulates unclear, that means that she does not want to communicate what she did not. They are the experts (in theory) of the personal matters and not you.



                                      Of course you have all the reasons to start to check your alternatives, it would be so even without this HR talk.



                                      But, you have not got a clear message to start to seek your next job.



                                      Other answerers would say "leave", but I think it is easy to give ideas for others, if not we need to accept the consequences.



                                      In your case, what I would do: I would fight for my job until the last shot - but, I would also seek for the next one, for the case of a firing.



                                      Don't resign for an unclear HR statement. Don't resign even for a clear one. Resign only if you already have your new job, and it is really much better than your current one.







                                      share|improve this answer












                                      share|improve this answer



                                      share|improve this answer










                                      answered Jul 13 at 21:42









                                      Gray SheepGray Sheep

                                      2,1344 gold badges14 silver badges29 bronze badges




                                      2,1344 gold badges14 silver badges29 bronze badges



























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