Which high-degree derivatives play an essential role?Is there an underlying explanation for the magical powers of the Schwarzian derivative?Asymptotic behavior of the solution of the high degree differential equation $(x^2ny^(n))^(n)-x^2y=lambda ; y$

Which high-degree derivatives play an essential role?


Is there an underlying explanation for the magical powers of the Schwarzian derivative?Asymptotic behavior of the solution of the high degree differential equation $(x^2ny^(n))^(n)-x^2y=lambda ; y$













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Q. Which high-degree derivatives play an essential role
in applications, or in theorems?




Of course the 1st derivative of distance w.r.t. time (velocity), the 2nd derivative (acceleration),
and the 3rd derivative (jolt or jerk) certainly play several roles in applications.
And the torsion of a curve in $mathbbR^3$ can be expressed
using 3rd derivatives.



Beyond this, I'm out of my depth of experience. I know of the biharmonic equation
$nabla ^4 phi=0$.
There is a literature on the solvability of quintics,
but it seems this work is neither aimed at applications nor essential to
further theoretic developments.
(I am happy to have my ignorance corrected here.)




Q. What are examples of applications that depend on 4th-derivatives
(snap/jounce) or higher?
Are there substantive theorems that require existence of $partial^4$ or higher as
assumptions, but do not require (or are not known to require) smoothness—derivatives of all orders?











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  • 3




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    I recall a professor from my undergraduate days who was working on modelling certain biological systems. He mentioned one model that used a 7th order differential equation. I don't recall any details now. Gerhard "Something About Blood Circulatory System?" Paseman, 2019.06.28.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerhard Paseman
    Jun 29 at 0:18






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    @GerhardPaseman: 7th-order! Impressive.
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    – Joseph O'Rourke
    Jun 29 at 0:20






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    @GerhardPaseman thing is, a 7th order equation in biology is likely to have been obtained from a first order equation for a vector with 7 coordinates, so I would take this with a grain of salt..
    $endgroup$
    – Vladimir Dotsenko
    Jun 29 at 11:23






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    A similar question was asked many years ago at math.stackexchange.com/questions/71626/… to which I refer you for some more answers.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerry Myerson
    Jun 29 at 12:41






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    @JosephO'Rourke, but that's really done only for convenience, As far as I can tell, you rarely need more than $C^3$ assumptions (which often can be reduced to $C^2$ if you're willing to be even more careful) to do differential geometry.
    $endgroup$
    – Deane Yang
    Jun 29 at 14:31















48












$begingroup$



Q. Which high-degree derivatives play an essential role
in applications, or in theorems?




Of course the 1st derivative of distance w.r.t. time (velocity), the 2nd derivative (acceleration),
and the 3rd derivative (jolt or jerk) certainly play several roles in applications.
And the torsion of a curve in $mathbbR^3$ can be expressed
using 3rd derivatives.



Beyond this, I'm out of my depth of experience. I know of the biharmonic equation
$nabla ^4 phi=0$.
There is a literature on the solvability of quintics,
but it seems this work is neither aimed at applications nor essential to
further theoretic developments.
(I am happy to have my ignorance corrected here.)




Q. What are examples of applications that depend on 4th-derivatives
(snap/jounce) or higher?
Are there substantive theorems that require existence of $partial^4$ or higher as
assumptions, but do not require (or are not known to require) smoothness—derivatives of all orders?











share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 3




    $begingroup$
    I recall a professor from my undergraduate days who was working on modelling certain biological systems. He mentioned one model that used a 7th order differential equation. I don't recall any details now. Gerhard "Something About Blood Circulatory System?" Paseman, 2019.06.28.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerhard Paseman
    Jun 29 at 0:18






  • 1




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    @GerhardPaseman: 7th-order! Impressive.
    $endgroup$
    – Joseph O'Rourke
    Jun 29 at 0:20






  • 15




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    @GerhardPaseman thing is, a 7th order equation in biology is likely to have been obtained from a first order equation for a vector with 7 coordinates, so I would take this with a grain of salt..
    $endgroup$
    – Vladimir Dotsenko
    Jun 29 at 11:23






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    A similar question was asked many years ago at math.stackexchange.com/questions/71626/… to which I refer you for some more answers.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerry Myerson
    Jun 29 at 12:41






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @JosephO'Rourke, but that's really done only for convenience, As far as I can tell, you rarely need more than $C^3$ assumptions (which often can be reduced to $C^2$ if you're willing to be even more careful) to do differential geometry.
    $endgroup$
    – Deane Yang
    Jun 29 at 14:31













48












48








48


16



$begingroup$



Q. Which high-degree derivatives play an essential role
in applications, or in theorems?




Of course the 1st derivative of distance w.r.t. time (velocity), the 2nd derivative (acceleration),
and the 3rd derivative (jolt or jerk) certainly play several roles in applications.
And the torsion of a curve in $mathbbR^3$ can be expressed
using 3rd derivatives.



Beyond this, I'm out of my depth of experience. I know of the biharmonic equation
$nabla ^4 phi=0$.
There is a literature on the solvability of quintics,
but it seems this work is neither aimed at applications nor essential to
further theoretic developments.
(I am happy to have my ignorance corrected here.)




Q. What are examples of applications that depend on 4th-derivatives
(snap/jounce) or higher?
Are there substantive theorems that require existence of $partial^4$ or higher as
assumptions, but do not require (or are not known to require) smoothness—derivatives of all orders?











share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$





Q. Which high-degree derivatives play an essential role
in applications, or in theorems?




Of course the 1st derivative of distance w.r.t. time (velocity), the 2nd derivative (acceleration),
and the 3rd derivative (jolt or jerk) certainly play several roles in applications.
And the torsion of a curve in $mathbbR^3$ can be expressed
using 3rd derivatives.



Beyond this, I'm out of my depth of experience. I know of the biharmonic equation
$nabla ^4 phi=0$.
There is a literature on the solvability of quintics,
but it seems this work is neither aimed at applications nor essential to
further theoretic developments.
(I am happy to have my ignorance corrected here.)




Q. What are examples of applications that depend on 4th-derivatives
(snap/jounce) or higher?
Are there substantive theorems that require existence of $partial^4$ or higher as
assumptions, but do not require (or are not known to require) smoothness—derivatives of all orders?








dg.differential-geometry differential-equations differential-operators applied-mathematics differential-calculus






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edited Jun 30 at 10:45


























community wiki





6 revs, 5 users 97%
Joseph O'Rourke








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    I recall a professor from my undergraduate days who was working on modelling certain biological systems. He mentioned one model that used a 7th order differential equation. I don't recall any details now. Gerhard "Something About Blood Circulatory System?" Paseman, 2019.06.28.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerhard Paseman
    Jun 29 at 0:18






  • 1




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    @GerhardPaseman: 7th-order! Impressive.
    $endgroup$
    – Joseph O'Rourke
    Jun 29 at 0:20






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    @GerhardPaseman thing is, a 7th order equation in biology is likely to have been obtained from a first order equation for a vector with 7 coordinates, so I would take this with a grain of salt..
    $endgroup$
    – Vladimir Dotsenko
    Jun 29 at 11:23






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    A similar question was asked many years ago at math.stackexchange.com/questions/71626/… to which I refer you for some more answers.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerry Myerson
    Jun 29 at 12:41






  • 1




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    @JosephO'Rourke, but that's really done only for convenience, As far as I can tell, you rarely need more than $C^3$ assumptions (which often can be reduced to $C^2$ if you're willing to be even more careful) to do differential geometry.
    $endgroup$
    – Deane Yang
    Jun 29 at 14:31












  • 3




    $begingroup$
    I recall a professor from my undergraduate days who was working on modelling certain biological systems. He mentioned one model that used a 7th order differential equation. I don't recall any details now. Gerhard "Something About Blood Circulatory System?" Paseman, 2019.06.28.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerhard Paseman
    Jun 29 at 0:18






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @GerhardPaseman: 7th-order! Impressive.
    $endgroup$
    – Joseph O'Rourke
    Jun 29 at 0:20






  • 15




    $begingroup$
    @GerhardPaseman thing is, a 7th order equation in biology is likely to have been obtained from a first order equation for a vector with 7 coordinates, so I would take this with a grain of salt..
    $endgroup$
    – Vladimir Dotsenko
    Jun 29 at 11:23






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    A similar question was asked many years ago at math.stackexchange.com/questions/71626/… to which I refer you for some more answers.
    $endgroup$
    – Gerry Myerson
    Jun 29 at 12:41






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @JosephO'Rourke, but that's really done only for convenience, As far as I can tell, you rarely need more than $C^3$ assumptions (which often can be reduced to $C^2$ if you're willing to be even more careful) to do differential geometry.
    $endgroup$
    – Deane Yang
    Jun 29 at 14:31







3




3




$begingroup$
I recall a professor from my undergraduate days who was working on modelling certain biological systems. He mentioned one model that used a 7th order differential equation. I don't recall any details now. Gerhard "Something About Blood Circulatory System?" Paseman, 2019.06.28.
$endgroup$
– Gerhard Paseman
Jun 29 at 0:18




$begingroup$
I recall a professor from my undergraduate days who was working on modelling certain biological systems. He mentioned one model that used a 7th order differential equation. I don't recall any details now. Gerhard "Something About Blood Circulatory System?" Paseman, 2019.06.28.
$endgroup$
– Gerhard Paseman
Jun 29 at 0:18




1




1




$begingroup$
@GerhardPaseman: 7th-order! Impressive.
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
Jun 29 at 0:20




$begingroup$
@GerhardPaseman: 7th-order! Impressive.
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
Jun 29 at 0:20




15




15




$begingroup$
@GerhardPaseman thing is, a 7th order equation in biology is likely to have been obtained from a first order equation for a vector with 7 coordinates, so I would take this with a grain of salt..
$endgroup$
– Vladimir Dotsenko
Jun 29 at 11:23




$begingroup$
@GerhardPaseman thing is, a 7th order equation in biology is likely to have been obtained from a first order equation for a vector with 7 coordinates, so I would take this with a grain of salt..
$endgroup$
– Vladimir Dotsenko
Jun 29 at 11:23




3




3




$begingroup$
A similar question was asked many years ago at math.stackexchange.com/questions/71626/… to which I refer you for some more answers.
$endgroup$
– Gerry Myerson
Jun 29 at 12:41




$begingroup$
A similar question was asked many years ago at math.stackexchange.com/questions/71626/… to which I refer you for some more answers.
$endgroup$
– Gerry Myerson
Jun 29 at 12:41




1




1




$begingroup$
@JosephO'Rourke, but that's really done only for convenience, As far as I can tell, you rarely need more than $C^3$ assumptions (which often can be reduced to $C^2$ if you're willing to be even more careful) to do differential geometry.
$endgroup$
– Deane Yang
Jun 29 at 14:31




$begingroup$
@JosephO'Rourke, but that's really done only for convenience, As far as I can tell, you rarely need more than $C^3$ assumptions (which often can be reduced to $C^2$ if you're willing to be even more careful) to do differential geometry.
$endgroup$
– Deane Yang
Jun 29 at 14:31










22 Answers
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Given two sets $A$ and $B$ in $mathbbR^n$, the Minkowski sum written $A+B$ is the set $a+b:ain A,bin B$.



If $A$ and $B$ are convex subsets of $mathbbR^2$ with real-analytic boundaries then the boundary of $A+B$ is only guaranteed to be '$6frac23$ times differentiable,' by which I mean $6$ times differentiable with $6$th derivative Hölder continuous with exponent $frac23$. This is known to be sharp.






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    This is, to me, the most impressive occurrence of a derivative of high order so far.
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    – Dirk
    Jun 30 at 19:13






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    Alternative link is mscand.dk/article/view/12183. Is it known what happens in higher dimensions? Is $6frac23$ the second element of a nice, or of an ugly sequence?
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    – Boris Bukh
    Jul 1 at 13:45







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    Judging from the discussion at the beginning of this (arxiv.org/abs/1607.02753) more recent paper it seems like more is known about the smooth case, rather than the real-analytic case. The smooth case isn't as exciting. In 2D the Minkowski sum of two smooth convex sets can fail to be $C^4+varepsilon$ for any $varepsilon>0$ and in 3D or more it can fail to be $C^2$. As discussed in the original paper the issue in 2D is the presence of infinitely flat points. In the absence of infinitely flat points you get $6frac23$ again.
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    – James Hanson
    Jul 1 at 15:04











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    You might be able to compute conjectural bounds for the real-analytic case. An example of two convex sets with real-analytic boundaries whose Minkowski sum has $C^20/3$ boundary is as simple as the epigraphs of $f(x) = frac14x^4$ and $g(x) = frac16x^6$. For epigraphs the Minkowski sum is the same as the epigraph of the infimal convolution of the two functions.
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    – James Hanson
    Jul 1 at 15:10










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    I have an extremely vague intuition that the worst case behavior should always happen with the epigraphs of homogeneous polynomials and it should be comparatively easy to compute the regularity of these. Then the difficulty is finding the minimum among all pairs of powers.
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    – James Hanson
    Jul 1 at 15:10


















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Moser’s theorem in (1962) famously required estimates on the first 333 derivatives.






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    “Incidentally, this number was later reduced by Russmann to $ell ge 5” — people.math.ethz.ch/~salamon/PREPRINTS/kam.pdf
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    – Matt F.
    Jun 29 at 2:41







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    Impressive... does anyone have any slightest idea how come so many derivatives were necessary for the argument to proceed?
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    – Wojowu
    Jun 29 at 7:44






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    This is an application of the so-called Nash-Moser iteration scheme, which is a generalization of the Newton iteration method and which Moser formulated, based on Nash's work on isometric embeddings. Many derivatives are lost in the iteration scheme used to prove the theorem.
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    – Deane Yang
    Jun 29 at 14:25



















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There is a famous story that Richard Nixon once made use of the third time derivative to support his re-election, via a claim that the rate of increase of inflation was decreasing.



http://www.ams.org/notices/199610/page2.pdf






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    I've heard this story before, but to the ordinary person, this statement doesn't necessarily refer to a third derivative (like how people use "rate of speed" to mean speed, and not acceleration, emphasizing that speed is a rate rather than intending to take the derivative of it). Has anyone actually looked at what inflation in the US economy was at the time Nixon made this statement to confirm that he was actually trying to confuse people into thinking that inflation was decreasing, when it was still increasing?
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    – Robert Furber
    Jun 29 at 10:39






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    Similarly Obama, “the arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice”: $J’<0$ but $J’’>0$. It’s less optimistic than it appears.
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    – Matt F.
    Jun 29 at 15:22






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    The question was "Q. What are examples of applications that depend on 4th-derivatives (snap/jounce) or higher?" Sad that we're allowing "humor" to trump quality answers. Hope this site doesn't go the way of Reddit.
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    – horse hair
    Jun 29 at 17:51






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    @RobertFurber, this story sounds apocryphal. Rossi did not provide any documentation, and I do not find any confirmation via Google search either.
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    – Matt F.
    Jun 30 at 9:38










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    Yes, I also wondered if the story was apocryphal. The quote as I originally posted it was what I heard as an undergraduate, but online I could only find Rossi and one other informal reference. Fair enough to horse hair, although the original question was phrased rather informally so I thought this was in the same spirit.
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    – DanielHarlow
    Jun 30 at 13:11



















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The error in Simpson's rule
for integration is usually expressed in terms of the fourth derivative of the integrand.






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  • 13




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    Even better: arbitrarily high derivatives are used Taylor series approximations, and control on the size of the next higher derivative is needed to control the error.
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    – Steven Gubkin
    Jun 29 at 0:30






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    @StevenGubkin: That's not really better considering I don't really see people doing 51st-degree Taylor series, for example. The whole point was to get a realistic example. But in this case, I would've cited RKF45 which uses a 5th-order error estimator.
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    – Mehrdad
    Jul 1 at 9:17


















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In
"classical
(Euler-Bernoulli) beam theory" the motion of a beam
is modelled by the 4th-order PDE
$$
EI fracpartial^4 wpartial x^4
= -mu fracpartial^2 wpartial t^2 + q.
$$






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  • 2




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    The 2-d analogue of Euler's elastica is the Willmore equation $Delta_gH+2H(H^2−K)=0$, where $g$ is the metric (of the underlying immersion), $H$ is the mean curvature ($1/2$ of the Laplacian for a flat metric) and $K$ is the Gauss curvature, which is essentially the geometric version of the bi-Laplacian. This equation is also $4$th-order.
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    – Paul-Benjamin
    Jul 1 at 17:43



















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Nonlinear solitonic wave equations often feature high($3^+$) order of derivatives.



The most famous one may be the KdV equation: $partial_t phi + partial_xxx phi -6 phi partial_x phi = 0$.



There is also the Boussinesq equation $partial_tt phi - partial_xx phi -alpha partial_tt (phi^2) - partial_xxxx phi = 0$.






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  • 4




    $begingroup$
    To add to this, Lax pairs (which these kinds of equations often have) can be used to easily form a hierarchy of high order PDEs with no restrictions on their order.
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    – user41208
    Jun 29 at 13:34



















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In optimal transport, there is a quantity known as the MTW tensor [1] which depends on the fourth derivatives of the cost function. The regularity theory of transport depends in a crucial way on the sign of this tensor. Unless the MTW tensor non-negative definite, the optimal map can fail to be continuous, even when the measures are smooth and satisfy a necessary convexity condition [2]. As a result of this, much of the regularity theory depends on the cost function being $C^4$, although it is possible to make some of the theory work when the cost function is $C^3$ [3].



For a more complete story, there is a survey paper of De Phillipis and Figalli which gives a good overview of the theory [4].



[1] Ma, Xi-Nan; Trudinger, Neil S.; Wang, Xu-Jia, Regularity of potential functions of the optimal transportation problem, Arch. Ration. Mech. Anal. 177, No. 2, 151-183 (2005). ZBL1072.49035.



[2] Loeper, Grégoire, On the regularity of solutions of optimal transportation problems, Acta Math. 202, No. 2, 241-283 (2009). ZBL1219.49038.



[3] Guillen, Nestor; Kitagawa, Jun, On the local geometry of maps with c-convex potentials, Calc. Var. Partial Differ. Equ. 52, No. 1-2, 345-387 (2015). ZBL1309.35038..



[4] De Philippis, Guido; Figalli, Alessio, The Monge-Ampère equation and its link to optimal transportation, ZBL06377770.






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    A tensor is named MTW and that doesn't stand for Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler. I am a bit surprised.
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    – KConrad
    Jun 29 at 5:29










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    Yeah, it's definitely a coincidence. The tensor is also called the "cost-sectional curvature," which might be easier to remember/google.
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    – Gabe K
    Jun 29 at 13:13






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    @KConrad $-$ while on the workweek calendar, MTW is dual to WTF . . .
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    – Noam D. Elkies
    Jun 29 at 14:01


















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The Kuramoto-Sivashinsky equation
$$partial_tu+Delta^2u+Delta u+frac12|nabla u|^2=0$$
where $Delta$ is the Laplace operator (second order) was derived to model diffusive instabilities in a laminar flame. There is a huge literature about it.






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    13












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    Third derivatives (and higher) show up naturally in the study of affine and projective geometry. Perhaps most notably in the Schwarzian.



    The Bochner formula also involves three derivatives and is a fundamental tool in geometric analysis. There are a number of important computations in the same spirit that sometimes require four derivatives (e.g. Simons' identity for minimal surfaces).






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      In Kahler geometry, and many other places, (Riemannian) metrics are often (sometimes) prescribed via a potential function, which involves two derivatives. Therefore, the fundamental invariants, like the Riemann curvature tensor, involve fourth derivatives of this function.



      As for arbitrarily high derivatives, one place these arise naturally is the study of Lie groups $G$ and their homogeneous spaces $G/H.$ For instance, one may ask if there is a "differential operator" acting on locally defined diffeomorphisms of $G/H$ whose kernel consists exactly of those arising from the left $G$-action. As noted by RBega2 above, for $G=PSL(2, mathbbC)$ and $G/H=mathbbCP^1$ one is led to the Schwarzian derivative, a non-linear third order differential operator.
      This question was studied in general by Spencer in the 1960's resulting in the so-called Spencer complex.



      Nonetheless, both of these cases might be more high brow than the OP was looking for.






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      • $begingroup$
        This is a good answer and I think it's worth noting the connection of your first example to optimal transport. In particular, the MTW tensor can be understood as a curvature tensor for a certain pseudo-Riemannian metric or (in some cases) as the orthogonal bisectional curvature of a particular Kahler metric.
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        – Gabe K
        Jul 2 at 12:55


















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      As a roboticist, I always pay close attention to the 3rd derivative of position with respect to time when generating a motion for a given robot. The 3rd derivative of position is most often referred to as the "jerk" and quantifies the smoothness of a motion. See http://courses.shadmehrlab.org/Shortcourse/minimumjerk.pdf article for a great description of jerk.



      In general, people will try to minimize the jerk to obtain a smooth motion for the robot. If position as a function of time is specified by $x(t)$, then the jerk is



      $dddotx(t) = fracd^3 x(t)dt^3$






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        11












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        The OP says




        And the torsion of a curve in $mathbb R^3$
        can be expressed using 3rd derivatives.




        More generally,




        a curve in $mathbb R^3$ is described up to isometry by the derivatives up to order $3$.




        But then is it not also true that




        a curve in $mathbb R^4$ is described up to isometry by the derivatives up to order $4$.




        and




        a curve in $mathbb R^5$ is described up to isometry by the derivatives up to order $5$.




        and so on?






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          What are examples of applications that depend on 4th-derivatives ...
          or higher?




          The Dirac equation is a system of four partial differential equations for four complex functions. However, in a general case, it is equivalent to one fourth-order equation for just one function (see references to my article).






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            6












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            A robotics application (similar to the one given by Martin Fevre) involves minimizing a function of the snap of a quadrotor's trajectory, where $mathrmsnap(t) :=fracmathrmd^4xmathrmdt^4$; here is a reference.






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              6












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              Similarly to Martin Fevre's answer:



              When routing a road for fast vehicles you need to minimize the rate of change of the road curvature so that the drivers wouldn't have to move the steering wheels in quick jerks. For example, a perfect transition from a circular roundabout to a linear road tangent to the roundabout would require an instantaneous steering wheel adjustment; that can be avoided by connecting the circle and the line with a ramp that has smoothly varying curvature.



              Since the curvature is essentially the 2nd derivative the rate of change of the curvature is the 3rd derivative, minimizing the rate of change of the curvature requires the 4th derivative.






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              • 3




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                I've always been fascinated by the paths in grassy areas that emerge from people crossing with their preferred optimization. About 10 years ago, I googled this idea and found a paper by some robotics researchers in which they described experiments sending people walking around and mapping their trajectories. As I recall, their paths were VERY well approximated by the paths that minimized the total variation in the curvature (just as you say).
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                – Jeff Strom
                Jul 1 at 22:09


















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              $begingroup$

              In geometric measure theory (GMT), many theorems require more than four derivatives. This is in part due to the use of Nash embedding theorem (which require $C^3$). We will give two examples.



              Almgren's big regularity theorem (1983, 2000) required the manifold to be $C^5$, but De Lellis and Spadaro (2014) managed to reduce the needed regularity to $C^3,alpha$ for some $alpha>0$ (they also simplified and shortened a lot the proof).



              In Almgren-Pitts theory (1976-present day), the original result of Pitts (1981) concerning the existence of one closed minimal hypersurface in closed Riemannian manifolds of dimension $3leq nleq 6$ required the manifold to be $C^k$ with $kgeq mathrmmax4,n-1$ (and the minimal hypersurface will also be of class $C^k$).






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$












              • $begingroup$
                Quick question: For these theorems, is there a conjecture on what the minimal regularity is needed for these theorems?
                $endgroup$
                – Deane Yang
                Jul 2 at 14:43










              • $begingroup$
                @Deane Yang. Thank you, this is an interesting question. First, as the Simon's identity is used, one definitely requires the manifold be $C^3$ in Pitts's book. Likewise, the stronger curvature estimate of Schoen-Simon ((1981)(mathscinet.ams.org/mathscinet/search/…)) requires a $C^3$ regularity (and Nash embedding theorem is used). So this is probably the best one can do. Furthermore, by reading more carefully some statements in Pitts's book, theorems such as the "Decomposition theorem" are stated for manifolds at least $C^5$.
                $endgroup$
                – Paul-Benjamin
                Jul 3 at 13:42


















              5












              $begingroup$

              This is probably a stretch, but the theory of distributions is highly relevant to a large chunk of applied math and heavily relies on functions which have derivatives of arbitrarily high order.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$








              • 3




                $begingroup$
                For example, in microlocal analysis sufficient regularity of functions is often needed so that their Fourier transforms decay fast enough, which, in turn, is needed in order that certain integrals converge. Although the theory of distributions is always presented in the smooth category, I believe it's not necessary. As far as I know, derivatives of arbitrarily high order are never really needed in any application of distribution theory. Do you know an example of where they are?
                $endgroup$
                – Deane Yang
                Jun 29 at 14:12







              • 1




                $begingroup$
                @Deane Yang: maybe Ruelle resonances? Given a hyperbolic map $T$, the eigenvalues of the composition operator $f mapsto f circ T$ are not functions, but distributions; and in general, there are such eigendistributions of arbitrarily high order (so which have to be integrated against arbitrarily smooth functions).
                $endgroup$
                – D. Thomine
                Jun 30 at 19:53



















              4












              $begingroup$

              I think third-order and fourth-order derivatives in particular are very common in both pure and applied mathematics, for example, I once worked with some equations modelling local film thickness of moving liquid films which contained third-order derivatives.



              $delta q_t = frac56h - frac52fracqh^2 + delta Bigg( frac97fracq^2h^2h_x - frac177fracqhq_x Bigg) +
              frac56hh_xxx + eta Bigg[ 4fracqh^2(h_x)^2 - frac92hq_xh_x - 6 fracqhh_xx + frac92q_xx Bigg].$






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$




















                3












                $begingroup$

                I agree with Dirk's answer that there exist also applications for arbitrarily high order derivatives. Another example is the infinite order Kosterlitz–Thouless phase transition






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$








                • 4




                  $begingroup$
                  Could you give a sketch of why an infinite number of derivatives are needed?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Deane Yang
                  Jun 29 at 14:28


















                3












                $begingroup$

                I was once president of a PhD defense in chemistry (this is standard in our faculty; the president should not belong to the same department as the student). Most of his thesis involved simulations of behaviours of the seventh derivatives of something. It was claimed that this was testing for chaotic chemical reactions (certainly periodic reactions exist). The student however, was mathematically quite weak, so I don't really know how effective his results were.






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$




















                  2












                  $begingroup$

                  Analytic regularity of a $C^infty$ function can be characterized by using an infinite number of derivatives. A function $fin C^infty(Omega)$ where $Omega$ is an open subset of $mathbb R^n$ is real-analytic on $Omega$ iff for all $K$ compact subsets of $Omega$, there exist positive constants $C_K, rho_K$, such that
                  $$
                  beginarrayccc
                  forall alpha=(alpha_1, dots, alpha_n) in mathbb N^n ,,
                  & ~~ &
                  suplimits_xin Kleft|(partial_x^alpha f)(x)right| le C_K rho_K^-vert alphavert alpha ! ,,
                  \[10px]
                  vert alphavert=sum alpha_j ,,
                  & &
                  alpha!=prod alpha_j! ,.
                  endarray
                  $$






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$








                  • 6




                    $begingroup$
                    More generally, any theorem in the real analytic category necessarily involves derivatives of all orders.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Deane Yang
                    Jun 29 at 18:54


















                  1












                  $begingroup$

                  To perhaps state the obvious, there are many places in theory (and, I'm told, practice) where analytic continuations are used. For instance, the Riemann zeta function was discovered as the analytic continuation of Euler's product formula.



                  Of course you can't make any sense of this without all the derivatives of a function.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$












                  • $begingroup$
                    I think what OP is after is situations where you need, say, the 4th derivative, but you don't need the 5th or 6th or any other high-order derivative.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Gerry Myerson
                    Jul 2 at 22:50













                  Your Answer








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                  22 Answers
                  22






                  active

                  oldest

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                  22 Answers
                  22






                  active

                  oldest

                  votes









                  active

                  oldest

                  votes






                  active

                  oldest

                  votes









                  60












                  $begingroup$

                  Given two sets $A$ and $B$ in $mathbbR^n$, the Minkowski sum written $A+B$ is the set $a+b:ain A,bin B$.



                  If $A$ and $B$ are convex subsets of $mathbbR^2$ with real-analytic boundaries then the boundary of $A+B$ is only guaranteed to be '$6frac23$ times differentiable,' by which I mean $6$ times differentiable with $6$th derivative Hölder continuous with exponent $frac23$. This is known to be sharp.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$








                  • 15




                    $begingroup$
                    This is, to me, the most impressive occurrence of a derivative of high order so far.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Dirk
                    Jun 30 at 19:13






                  • 1




                    $begingroup$
                    Alternative link is mscand.dk/article/view/12183. Is it known what happens in higher dimensions? Is $6frac23$ the second element of a nice, or of an ugly sequence?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Boris Bukh
                    Jul 1 at 13:45







                  • 2




                    $begingroup$
                    Judging from the discussion at the beginning of this (arxiv.org/abs/1607.02753) more recent paper it seems like more is known about the smooth case, rather than the real-analytic case. The smooth case isn't as exciting. In 2D the Minkowski sum of two smooth convex sets can fail to be $C^4+varepsilon$ for any $varepsilon>0$ and in 3D or more it can fail to be $C^2$. As discussed in the original paper the issue in 2D is the presence of infinitely flat points. In the absence of infinitely flat points you get $6frac23$ again.
                    $endgroup$
                    – James Hanson
                    Jul 1 at 15:04











                  • $begingroup$
                    You might be able to compute conjectural bounds for the real-analytic case. An example of two convex sets with real-analytic boundaries whose Minkowski sum has $C^20/3$ boundary is as simple as the epigraphs of $f(x) = frac14x^4$ and $g(x) = frac16x^6$. For epigraphs the Minkowski sum is the same as the epigraph of the infimal convolution of the two functions.
                    $endgroup$
                    – James Hanson
                    Jul 1 at 15:10










                  • $begingroup$
                    I have an extremely vague intuition that the worst case behavior should always happen with the epigraphs of homogeneous polynomials and it should be comparatively easy to compute the regularity of these. Then the difficulty is finding the minimum among all pairs of powers.
                    $endgroup$
                    – James Hanson
                    Jul 1 at 15:10















                  60












                  $begingroup$

                  Given two sets $A$ and $B$ in $mathbbR^n$, the Minkowski sum written $A+B$ is the set $a+b:ain A,bin B$.



                  If $A$ and $B$ are convex subsets of $mathbbR^2$ with real-analytic boundaries then the boundary of $A+B$ is only guaranteed to be '$6frac23$ times differentiable,' by which I mean $6$ times differentiable with $6$th derivative Hölder continuous with exponent $frac23$. This is known to be sharp.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$








                  • 15




                    $begingroup$
                    This is, to me, the most impressive occurrence of a derivative of high order so far.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Dirk
                    Jun 30 at 19:13






                  • 1




                    $begingroup$
                    Alternative link is mscand.dk/article/view/12183. Is it known what happens in higher dimensions? Is $6frac23$ the second element of a nice, or of an ugly sequence?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Boris Bukh
                    Jul 1 at 13:45







                  • 2




                    $begingroup$
                    Judging from the discussion at the beginning of this (arxiv.org/abs/1607.02753) more recent paper it seems like more is known about the smooth case, rather than the real-analytic case. The smooth case isn't as exciting. In 2D the Minkowski sum of two smooth convex sets can fail to be $C^4+varepsilon$ for any $varepsilon>0$ and in 3D or more it can fail to be $C^2$. As discussed in the original paper the issue in 2D is the presence of infinitely flat points. In the absence of infinitely flat points you get $6frac23$ again.
                    $endgroup$
                    – James Hanson
                    Jul 1 at 15:04











                  • $begingroup$
                    You might be able to compute conjectural bounds for the real-analytic case. An example of two convex sets with real-analytic boundaries whose Minkowski sum has $C^20/3$ boundary is as simple as the epigraphs of $f(x) = frac14x^4$ and $g(x) = frac16x^6$. For epigraphs the Minkowski sum is the same as the epigraph of the infimal convolution of the two functions.
                    $endgroup$
                    – James Hanson
                    Jul 1 at 15:10










                  • $begingroup$
                    I have an extremely vague intuition that the worst case behavior should always happen with the epigraphs of homogeneous polynomials and it should be comparatively easy to compute the regularity of these. Then the difficulty is finding the minimum among all pairs of powers.
                    $endgroup$
                    – James Hanson
                    Jul 1 at 15:10













                  60












                  60








                  60





                  $begingroup$

                  Given two sets $A$ and $B$ in $mathbbR^n$, the Minkowski sum written $A+B$ is the set $a+b:ain A,bin B$.



                  If $A$ and $B$ are convex subsets of $mathbbR^2$ with real-analytic boundaries then the boundary of $A+B$ is only guaranteed to be '$6frac23$ times differentiable,' by which I mean $6$ times differentiable with $6$th derivative Hölder continuous with exponent $frac23$. This is known to be sharp.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  Given two sets $A$ and $B$ in $mathbbR^n$, the Minkowski sum written $A+B$ is the set $a+b:ain A,bin B$.



                  If $A$ and $B$ are convex subsets of $mathbbR^2$ with real-analytic boundaries then the boundary of $A+B$ is only guaranteed to be '$6frac23$ times differentiable,' by which I mean $6$ times differentiable with $6$th derivative Hölder continuous with exponent $frac23$. This is known to be sharp.







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited Jul 1 at 6:10


























                  community wiki





                  2 revs
                  James Hanson








                  • 15




                    $begingroup$
                    This is, to me, the most impressive occurrence of a derivative of high order so far.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Dirk
                    Jun 30 at 19:13






                  • 1




                    $begingroup$
                    Alternative link is mscand.dk/article/view/12183. Is it known what happens in higher dimensions? Is $6frac23$ the second element of a nice, or of an ugly sequence?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Boris Bukh
                    Jul 1 at 13:45







                  • 2




                    $begingroup$
                    Judging from the discussion at the beginning of this (arxiv.org/abs/1607.02753) more recent paper it seems like more is known about the smooth case, rather than the real-analytic case. The smooth case isn't as exciting. In 2D the Minkowski sum of two smooth convex sets can fail to be $C^4+varepsilon$ for any $varepsilon>0$ and in 3D or more it can fail to be $C^2$. As discussed in the original paper the issue in 2D is the presence of infinitely flat points. In the absence of infinitely flat points you get $6frac23$ again.
                    $endgroup$
                    – James Hanson
                    Jul 1 at 15:04











                  • $begingroup$
                    You might be able to compute conjectural bounds for the real-analytic case. An example of two convex sets with real-analytic boundaries whose Minkowski sum has $C^20/3$ boundary is as simple as the epigraphs of $f(x) = frac14x^4$ and $g(x) = frac16x^6$. For epigraphs the Minkowski sum is the same as the epigraph of the infimal convolution of the two functions.
                    $endgroup$
                    – James Hanson
                    Jul 1 at 15:10










                  • $begingroup$
                    I have an extremely vague intuition that the worst case behavior should always happen with the epigraphs of homogeneous polynomials and it should be comparatively easy to compute the regularity of these. Then the difficulty is finding the minimum among all pairs of powers.
                    $endgroup$
                    – James Hanson
                    Jul 1 at 15:10












                  • 15




                    $begingroup$
                    This is, to me, the most impressive occurrence of a derivative of high order so far.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Dirk
                    Jun 30 at 19:13






                  • 1




                    $begingroup$
                    Alternative link is mscand.dk/article/view/12183. Is it known what happens in higher dimensions? Is $6frac23$ the second element of a nice, or of an ugly sequence?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Boris Bukh
                    Jul 1 at 13:45







                  • 2




                    $begingroup$
                    Judging from the discussion at the beginning of this (arxiv.org/abs/1607.02753) more recent paper it seems like more is known about the smooth case, rather than the real-analytic case. The smooth case isn't as exciting. In 2D the Minkowski sum of two smooth convex sets can fail to be $C^4+varepsilon$ for any $varepsilon>0$ and in 3D or more it can fail to be $C^2$. As discussed in the original paper the issue in 2D is the presence of infinitely flat points. In the absence of infinitely flat points you get $6frac23$ again.
                    $endgroup$
                    – James Hanson
                    Jul 1 at 15:04











                  • $begingroup$
                    You might be able to compute conjectural bounds for the real-analytic case. An example of two convex sets with real-analytic boundaries whose Minkowski sum has $C^20/3$ boundary is as simple as the epigraphs of $f(x) = frac14x^4$ and $g(x) = frac16x^6$. For epigraphs the Minkowski sum is the same as the epigraph of the infimal convolution of the two functions.
                    $endgroup$
                    – James Hanson
                    Jul 1 at 15:10










                  • $begingroup$
                    I have an extremely vague intuition that the worst case behavior should always happen with the epigraphs of homogeneous polynomials and it should be comparatively easy to compute the regularity of these. Then the difficulty is finding the minimum among all pairs of powers.
                    $endgroup$
                    – James Hanson
                    Jul 1 at 15:10







                  15




                  15




                  $begingroup$
                  This is, to me, the most impressive occurrence of a derivative of high order so far.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Dirk
                  Jun 30 at 19:13




                  $begingroup$
                  This is, to me, the most impressive occurrence of a derivative of high order so far.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Dirk
                  Jun 30 at 19:13




                  1




                  1




                  $begingroup$
                  Alternative link is mscand.dk/article/view/12183. Is it known what happens in higher dimensions? Is $6frac23$ the second element of a nice, or of an ugly sequence?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Boris Bukh
                  Jul 1 at 13:45





                  $begingroup$
                  Alternative link is mscand.dk/article/view/12183. Is it known what happens in higher dimensions? Is $6frac23$ the second element of a nice, or of an ugly sequence?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Boris Bukh
                  Jul 1 at 13:45





                  2




                  2




                  $begingroup$
                  Judging from the discussion at the beginning of this (arxiv.org/abs/1607.02753) more recent paper it seems like more is known about the smooth case, rather than the real-analytic case. The smooth case isn't as exciting. In 2D the Minkowski sum of two smooth convex sets can fail to be $C^4+varepsilon$ for any $varepsilon>0$ and in 3D or more it can fail to be $C^2$. As discussed in the original paper the issue in 2D is the presence of infinitely flat points. In the absence of infinitely flat points you get $6frac23$ again.
                  $endgroup$
                  – James Hanson
                  Jul 1 at 15:04





                  $begingroup$
                  Judging from the discussion at the beginning of this (arxiv.org/abs/1607.02753) more recent paper it seems like more is known about the smooth case, rather than the real-analytic case. The smooth case isn't as exciting. In 2D the Minkowski sum of two smooth convex sets can fail to be $C^4+varepsilon$ for any $varepsilon>0$ and in 3D or more it can fail to be $C^2$. As discussed in the original paper the issue in 2D is the presence of infinitely flat points. In the absence of infinitely flat points you get $6frac23$ again.
                  $endgroup$
                  – James Hanson
                  Jul 1 at 15:04













                  $begingroup$
                  You might be able to compute conjectural bounds for the real-analytic case. An example of two convex sets with real-analytic boundaries whose Minkowski sum has $C^20/3$ boundary is as simple as the epigraphs of $f(x) = frac14x^4$ and $g(x) = frac16x^6$. For epigraphs the Minkowski sum is the same as the epigraph of the infimal convolution of the two functions.
                  $endgroup$
                  – James Hanson
                  Jul 1 at 15:10




                  $begingroup$
                  You might be able to compute conjectural bounds for the real-analytic case. An example of two convex sets with real-analytic boundaries whose Minkowski sum has $C^20/3$ boundary is as simple as the epigraphs of $f(x) = frac14x^4$ and $g(x) = frac16x^6$. For epigraphs the Minkowski sum is the same as the epigraph of the infimal convolution of the two functions.
                  $endgroup$
                  – James Hanson
                  Jul 1 at 15:10












                  $begingroup$
                  I have an extremely vague intuition that the worst case behavior should always happen with the epigraphs of homogeneous polynomials and it should be comparatively easy to compute the regularity of these. Then the difficulty is finding the minimum among all pairs of powers.
                  $endgroup$
                  – James Hanson
                  Jul 1 at 15:10




                  $begingroup$
                  I have an extremely vague intuition that the worst case behavior should always happen with the epigraphs of homogeneous polynomials and it should be comparatively easy to compute the regularity of these. Then the difficulty is finding the minimum among all pairs of powers.
                  $endgroup$
                  – James Hanson
                  Jul 1 at 15:10











                  56












                  $begingroup$

                  Moser’s theorem in (1962) famously required estimates on the first 333 derivatives.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$








                  • 7




                    $begingroup$
                    “Incidentally, this number was later reduced by Russmann to $ell ge 5” — people.math.ethz.ch/~salamon/PREPRINTS/kam.pdf
                    $endgroup$
                    – Matt F.
                    Jun 29 at 2:41







                  • 4




                    $begingroup$
                    Impressive... does anyone have any slightest idea how come so many derivatives were necessary for the argument to proceed?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Wojowu
                    Jun 29 at 7:44






                  • 10




                    $begingroup$
                    This is an application of the so-called Nash-Moser iteration scheme, which is a generalization of the Newton iteration method and which Moser formulated, based on Nash's work on isometric embeddings. Many derivatives are lost in the iteration scheme used to prove the theorem.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Deane Yang
                    Jun 29 at 14:25
















                  56












                  $begingroup$

                  Moser’s theorem in (1962) famously required estimates on the first 333 derivatives.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$








                  • 7




                    $begingroup$
                    “Incidentally, this number was later reduced by Russmann to $ell ge 5” — people.math.ethz.ch/~salamon/PREPRINTS/kam.pdf
                    $endgroup$
                    – Matt F.
                    Jun 29 at 2:41







                  • 4




                    $begingroup$
                    Impressive... does anyone have any slightest idea how come so many derivatives were necessary for the argument to proceed?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Wojowu
                    Jun 29 at 7:44






                  • 10




                    $begingroup$
                    This is an application of the so-called Nash-Moser iteration scheme, which is a generalization of the Newton iteration method and which Moser formulated, based on Nash's work on isometric embeddings. Many derivatives are lost in the iteration scheme used to prove the theorem.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Deane Yang
                    Jun 29 at 14:25














                  56












                  56








                  56





                  $begingroup$

                  Moser’s theorem in (1962) famously required estimates on the first 333 derivatives.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  Moser’s theorem in (1962) famously required estimates on the first 333 derivatives.







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  answered Jun 29 at 2:19


























                  community wiki





                  Francois Ziegler








                  • 7




                    $begingroup$
                    “Incidentally, this number was later reduced by Russmann to $ell ge 5” — people.math.ethz.ch/~salamon/PREPRINTS/kam.pdf
                    $endgroup$
                    – Matt F.
                    Jun 29 at 2:41







                  • 4




                    $begingroup$
                    Impressive... does anyone have any slightest idea how come so many derivatives were necessary for the argument to proceed?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Wojowu
                    Jun 29 at 7:44






                  • 10




                    $begingroup$
                    This is an application of the so-called Nash-Moser iteration scheme, which is a generalization of the Newton iteration method and which Moser formulated, based on Nash's work on isometric embeddings. Many derivatives are lost in the iteration scheme used to prove the theorem.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Deane Yang
                    Jun 29 at 14:25













                  • 7




                    $begingroup$
                    “Incidentally, this number was later reduced by Russmann to $ell ge 5” — people.math.ethz.ch/~salamon/PREPRINTS/kam.pdf
                    $endgroup$
                    – Matt F.
                    Jun 29 at 2:41







                  • 4




                    $begingroup$
                    Impressive... does anyone have any slightest idea how come so many derivatives were necessary for the argument to proceed?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Wojowu
                    Jun 29 at 7:44






                  • 10




                    $begingroup$
                    This is an application of the so-called Nash-Moser iteration scheme, which is a generalization of the Newton iteration method and which Moser formulated, based on Nash's work on isometric embeddings. Many derivatives are lost in the iteration scheme used to prove the theorem.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Deane Yang
                    Jun 29 at 14:25








                  7




                  7




                  $begingroup$
                  “Incidentally, this number was later reduced by Russmann to $ell ge 5” — people.math.ethz.ch/~salamon/PREPRINTS/kam.pdf
                  $endgroup$
                  – Matt F.
                  Jun 29 at 2:41





                  $begingroup$
                  “Incidentally, this number was later reduced by Russmann to $ell ge 5” — people.math.ethz.ch/~salamon/PREPRINTS/kam.pdf
                  $endgroup$
                  – Matt F.
                  Jun 29 at 2:41





                  4




                  4




                  $begingroup$
                  Impressive... does anyone have any slightest idea how come so many derivatives were necessary for the argument to proceed?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Wojowu
                  Jun 29 at 7:44




                  $begingroup$
                  Impressive... does anyone have any slightest idea how come so many derivatives were necessary for the argument to proceed?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Wojowu
                  Jun 29 at 7:44




                  10




                  10




                  $begingroup$
                  This is an application of the so-called Nash-Moser iteration scheme, which is a generalization of the Newton iteration method and which Moser formulated, based on Nash's work on isometric embeddings. Many derivatives are lost in the iteration scheme used to prove the theorem.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Deane Yang
                  Jun 29 at 14:25





                  $begingroup$
                  This is an application of the so-called Nash-Moser iteration scheme, which is a generalization of the Newton iteration method and which Moser formulated, based on Nash's work on isometric embeddings. Many derivatives are lost in the iteration scheme used to prove the theorem.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Deane Yang
                  Jun 29 at 14:25












                  39












                  $begingroup$

                  There is a famous story that Richard Nixon once made use of the third time derivative to support his re-election, via a claim that the rate of increase of inflation was decreasing.



                  http://www.ams.org/notices/199610/page2.pdf






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$








                  • 3




                    $begingroup$
                    I've heard this story before, but to the ordinary person, this statement doesn't necessarily refer to a third derivative (like how people use "rate of speed" to mean speed, and not acceleration, emphasizing that speed is a rate rather than intending to take the derivative of it). Has anyone actually looked at what inflation in the US economy was at the time Nixon made this statement to confirm that he was actually trying to confuse people into thinking that inflation was decreasing, when it was still increasing?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Robert Furber
                    Jun 29 at 10:39






                  • 10




                    $begingroup$
                    Similarly Obama, “the arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice”: $J’<0$ but $J’’>0$. It’s less optimistic than it appears.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Matt F.
                    Jun 29 at 15:22






                  • 6




                    $begingroup$
                    The question was "Q. What are examples of applications that depend on 4th-derivatives (snap/jounce) or higher?" Sad that we're allowing "humor" to trump quality answers. Hope this site doesn't go the way of Reddit.
                    $endgroup$
                    – horse hair
                    Jun 29 at 17:51






                  • 1




                    $begingroup$
                    @RobertFurber, this story sounds apocryphal. Rossi did not provide any documentation, and I do not find any confirmation via Google search either.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Matt F.
                    Jun 30 at 9:38










                  • $begingroup$
                    Yes, I also wondered if the story was apocryphal. The quote as I originally posted it was what I heard as an undergraduate, but online I could only find Rossi and one other informal reference. Fair enough to horse hair, although the original question was phrased rather informally so I thought this was in the same spirit.
                    $endgroup$
                    – DanielHarlow
                    Jun 30 at 13:11
















                  39












                  $begingroup$

                  There is a famous story that Richard Nixon once made use of the third time derivative to support his re-election, via a claim that the rate of increase of inflation was decreasing.



                  http://www.ams.org/notices/199610/page2.pdf






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$








                  • 3




                    $begingroup$
                    I've heard this story before, but to the ordinary person, this statement doesn't necessarily refer to a third derivative (like how people use "rate of speed" to mean speed, and not acceleration, emphasizing that speed is a rate rather than intending to take the derivative of it). Has anyone actually looked at what inflation in the US economy was at the time Nixon made this statement to confirm that he was actually trying to confuse people into thinking that inflation was decreasing, when it was still increasing?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Robert Furber
                    Jun 29 at 10:39






                  • 10




                    $begingroup$
                    Similarly Obama, “the arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice”: $J’<0$ but $J’’>0$. It’s less optimistic than it appears.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Matt F.
                    Jun 29 at 15:22






                  • 6




                    $begingroup$
                    The question was "Q. What are examples of applications that depend on 4th-derivatives (snap/jounce) or higher?" Sad that we're allowing "humor" to trump quality answers. Hope this site doesn't go the way of Reddit.
                    $endgroup$
                    – horse hair
                    Jun 29 at 17:51






                  • 1




                    $begingroup$
                    @RobertFurber, this story sounds apocryphal. Rossi did not provide any documentation, and I do not find any confirmation via Google search either.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Matt F.
                    Jun 30 at 9:38










                  • $begingroup$
                    Yes, I also wondered if the story was apocryphal. The quote as I originally posted it was what I heard as an undergraduate, but online I could only find Rossi and one other informal reference. Fair enough to horse hair, although the original question was phrased rather informally so I thought this was in the same spirit.
                    $endgroup$
                    – DanielHarlow
                    Jun 30 at 13:11














                  39












                  39








                  39





                  $begingroup$

                  There is a famous story that Richard Nixon once made use of the third time derivative to support his re-election, via a claim that the rate of increase of inflation was decreasing.



                  http://www.ams.org/notices/199610/page2.pdf






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  There is a famous story that Richard Nixon once made use of the third time derivative to support his re-election, via a claim that the rate of increase of inflation was decreasing.



                  http://www.ams.org/notices/199610/page2.pdf







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited Jun 30 at 9:45


























                  community wiki





                  2 revs, 2 users 80%
                  DanielHarlow








                  • 3




                    $begingroup$
                    I've heard this story before, but to the ordinary person, this statement doesn't necessarily refer to a third derivative (like how people use "rate of speed" to mean speed, and not acceleration, emphasizing that speed is a rate rather than intending to take the derivative of it). Has anyone actually looked at what inflation in the US economy was at the time Nixon made this statement to confirm that he was actually trying to confuse people into thinking that inflation was decreasing, when it was still increasing?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Robert Furber
                    Jun 29 at 10:39






                  • 10




                    $begingroup$
                    Similarly Obama, “the arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice”: $J’<0$ but $J’’>0$. It’s less optimistic than it appears.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Matt F.
                    Jun 29 at 15:22






                  • 6




                    $begingroup$
                    The question was "Q. What are examples of applications that depend on 4th-derivatives (snap/jounce) or higher?" Sad that we're allowing "humor" to trump quality answers. Hope this site doesn't go the way of Reddit.
                    $endgroup$
                    – horse hair
                    Jun 29 at 17:51






                  • 1




                    $begingroup$
                    @RobertFurber, this story sounds apocryphal. Rossi did not provide any documentation, and I do not find any confirmation via Google search either.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Matt F.
                    Jun 30 at 9:38










                  • $begingroup$
                    Yes, I also wondered if the story was apocryphal. The quote as I originally posted it was what I heard as an undergraduate, but online I could only find Rossi and one other informal reference. Fair enough to horse hair, although the original question was phrased rather informally so I thought this was in the same spirit.
                    $endgroup$
                    – DanielHarlow
                    Jun 30 at 13:11













                  • 3




                    $begingroup$
                    I've heard this story before, but to the ordinary person, this statement doesn't necessarily refer to a third derivative (like how people use "rate of speed" to mean speed, and not acceleration, emphasizing that speed is a rate rather than intending to take the derivative of it). Has anyone actually looked at what inflation in the US economy was at the time Nixon made this statement to confirm that he was actually trying to confuse people into thinking that inflation was decreasing, when it was still increasing?
                    $endgroup$
                    – Robert Furber
                    Jun 29 at 10:39






                  • 10




                    $begingroup$
                    Similarly Obama, “the arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice”: $J’<0$ but $J’’>0$. It’s less optimistic than it appears.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Matt F.
                    Jun 29 at 15:22






                  • 6




                    $begingroup$
                    The question was "Q. What are examples of applications that depend on 4th-derivatives (snap/jounce) or higher?" Sad that we're allowing "humor" to trump quality answers. Hope this site doesn't go the way of Reddit.
                    $endgroup$
                    – horse hair
                    Jun 29 at 17:51






                  • 1




                    $begingroup$
                    @RobertFurber, this story sounds apocryphal. Rossi did not provide any documentation, and I do not find any confirmation via Google search either.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Matt F.
                    Jun 30 at 9:38










                  • $begingroup$
                    Yes, I also wondered if the story was apocryphal. The quote as I originally posted it was what I heard as an undergraduate, but online I could only find Rossi and one other informal reference. Fair enough to horse hair, although the original question was phrased rather informally so I thought this was in the same spirit.
                    $endgroup$
                    – DanielHarlow
                    Jun 30 at 13:11








                  3




                  3




                  $begingroup$
                  I've heard this story before, but to the ordinary person, this statement doesn't necessarily refer to a third derivative (like how people use "rate of speed" to mean speed, and not acceleration, emphasizing that speed is a rate rather than intending to take the derivative of it). Has anyone actually looked at what inflation in the US economy was at the time Nixon made this statement to confirm that he was actually trying to confuse people into thinking that inflation was decreasing, when it was still increasing?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Robert Furber
                  Jun 29 at 10:39




                  $begingroup$
                  I've heard this story before, but to the ordinary person, this statement doesn't necessarily refer to a third derivative (like how people use "rate of speed" to mean speed, and not acceleration, emphasizing that speed is a rate rather than intending to take the derivative of it). Has anyone actually looked at what inflation in the US economy was at the time Nixon made this statement to confirm that he was actually trying to confuse people into thinking that inflation was decreasing, when it was still increasing?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Robert Furber
                  Jun 29 at 10:39




                  10




                  10




                  $begingroup$
                  Similarly Obama, “the arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice”: $J’<0$ but $J’’>0$. It’s less optimistic than it appears.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Matt F.
                  Jun 29 at 15:22




                  $begingroup$
                  Similarly Obama, “the arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice”: $J’<0$ but $J’’>0$. It’s less optimistic than it appears.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Matt F.
                  Jun 29 at 15:22




                  6




                  6




                  $begingroup$
                  The question was "Q. What are examples of applications that depend on 4th-derivatives (snap/jounce) or higher?" Sad that we're allowing "humor" to trump quality answers. Hope this site doesn't go the way of Reddit.
                  $endgroup$
                  – horse hair
                  Jun 29 at 17:51




                  $begingroup$
                  The question was "Q. What are examples of applications that depend on 4th-derivatives (snap/jounce) or higher?" Sad that we're allowing "humor" to trump quality answers. Hope this site doesn't go the way of Reddit.
                  $endgroup$
                  – horse hair
                  Jun 29 at 17:51




                  1




                  1




                  $begingroup$
                  @RobertFurber, this story sounds apocryphal. Rossi did not provide any documentation, and I do not find any confirmation via Google search either.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Matt F.
                  Jun 30 at 9:38




                  $begingroup$
                  @RobertFurber, this story sounds apocryphal. Rossi did not provide any documentation, and I do not find any confirmation via Google search either.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Matt F.
                  Jun 30 at 9:38












                  $begingroup$
                  Yes, I also wondered if the story was apocryphal. The quote as I originally posted it was what I heard as an undergraduate, but online I could only find Rossi and one other informal reference. Fair enough to horse hair, although the original question was phrased rather informally so I thought this was in the same spirit.
                  $endgroup$
                  – DanielHarlow
                  Jun 30 at 13:11





                  $begingroup$
                  Yes, I also wondered if the story was apocryphal. The quote as I originally posted it was what I heard as an undergraduate, but online I could only find Rossi and one other informal reference. Fair enough to horse hair, although the original question was phrased rather informally so I thought this was in the same spirit.
                  $endgroup$
                  – DanielHarlow
                  Jun 30 at 13:11












                  33












                  $begingroup$

                  The error in Simpson's rule
                  for integration is usually expressed in terms of the fourth derivative of the integrand.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$








                  • 13




                    $begingroup$
                    Even better: arbitrarily high derivatives are used Taylor series approximations, and control on the size of the next higher derivative is needed to control the error.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Steven Gubkin
                    Jun 29 at 0:30






                  • 2




                    $begingroup$
                    @StevenGubkin: That's not really better considering I don't really see people doing 51st-degree Taylor series, for example. The whole point was to get a realistic example. But in this case, I would've cited RKF45 which uses a 5th-order error estimator.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Mehrdad
                    Jul 1 at 9:17















                  33












                  $begingroup$

                  The error in Simpson's rule
                  for integration is usually expressed in terms of the fourth derivative of the integrand.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$








                  • 13




                    $begingroup$
                    Even better: arbitrarily high derivatives are used Taylor series approximations, and control on the size of the next higher derivative is needed to control the error.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Steven Gubkin
                    Jun 29 at 0:30






                  • 2




                    $begingroup$
                    @StevenGubkin: That's not really better considering I don't really see people doing 51st-degree Taylor series, for example. The whole point was to get a realistic example. But in this case, I would've cited RKF45 which uses a 5th-order error estimator.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Mehrdad
                    Jul 1 at 9:17













                  33












                  33








                  33





                  $begingroup$

                  The error in Simpson's rule
                  for integration is usually expressed in terms of the fourth derivative of the integrand.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  The error in Simpson's rule
                  for integration is usually expressed in terms of the fourth derivative of the integrand.







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited Jun 29 at 0:11


























                  community wiki





                  Andreas Blass








                  • 13




                    $begingroup$
                    Even better: arbitrarily high derivatives are used Taylor series approximations, and control on the size of the next higher derivative is needed to control the error.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Steven Gubkin
                    Jun 29 at 0:30






                  • 2




                    $begingroup$
                    @StevenGubkin: That's not really better considering I don't really see people doing 51st-degree Taylor series, for example. The whole point was to get a realistic example. But in this case, I would've cited RKF45 which uses a 5th-order error estimator.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Mehrdad
                    Jul 1 at 9:17












                  • 13




                    $begingroup$
                    Even better: arbitrarily high derivatives are used Taylor series approximations, and control on the size of the next higher derivative is needed to control the error.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Steven Gubkin
                    Jun 29 at 0:30






                  • 2




                    $begingroup$
                    @StevenGubkin: That's not really better considering I don't really see people doing 51st-degree Taylor series, for example. The whole point was to get a realistic example. But in this case, I would've cited RKF45 which uses a 5th-order error estimator.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Mehrdad
                    Jul 1 at 9:17







                  13




                  13




                  $begingroup$
                  Even better: arbitrarily high derivatives are used Taylor series approximations, and control on the size of the next higher derivative is needed to control the error.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Steven Gubkin
                  Jun 29 at 0:30




                  $begingroup$
                  Even better: arbitrarily high derivatives are used Taylor series approximations, and control on the size of the next higher derivative is needed to control the error.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Steven Gubkin
                  Jun 29 at 0:30




                  2




                  2




                  $begingroup$
                  @StevenGubkin: That's not really better considering I don't really see people doing 51st-degree Taylor series, for example. The whole point was to get a realistic example. But in this case, I would've cited RKF45 which uses a 5th-order error estimator.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Mehrdad
                  Jul 1 at 9:17




                  $begingroup$
                  @StevenGubkin: That's not really better considering I don't really see people doing 51st-degree Taylor series, for example. The whole point was to get a realistic example. But in this case, I would've cited RKF45 which uses a 5th-order error estimator.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Mehrdad
                  Jul 1 at 9:17











                  33












                  $begingroup$

                  In
                  "classical
                  (Euler-Bernoulli) beam theory" the motion of a beam
                  is modelled by the 4th-order PDE
                  $$
                  EI fracpartial^4 wpartial x^4
                  = -mu fracpartial^2 wpartial t^2 + q.
                  $$






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$








                  • 2




                    $begingroup$
                    The 2-d analogue of Euler's elastica is the Willmore equation $Delta_gH+2H(H^2−K)=0$, where $g$ is the metric (of the underlying immersion), $H$ is the mean curvature ($1/2$ of the Laplacian for a flat metric) and $K$ is the Gauss curvature, which is essentially the geometric version of the bi-Laplacian. This equation is also $4$th-order.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Paul-Benjamin
                    Jul 1 at 17:43
















                  33












                  $begingroup$

                  In
                  "classical
                  (Euler-Bernoulli) beam theory" the motion of a beam
                  is modelled by the 4th-order PDE
                  $$
                  EI fracpartial^4 wpartial x^4
                  = -mu fracpartial^2 wpartial t^2 + q.
                  $$






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$








                  • 2




                    $begingroup$
                    The 2-d analogue of Euler's elastica is the Willmore equation $Delta_gH+2H(H^2−K)=0$, where $g$ is the metric (of the underlying immersion), $H$ is the mean curvature ($1/2$ of the Laplacian for a flat metric) and $K$ is the Gauss curvature, which is essentially the geometric version of the bi-Laplacian. This equation is also $4$th-order.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Paul-Benjamin
                    Jul 1 at 17:43














                  33












                  33








                  33





                  $begingroup$

                  In
                  "classical
                  (Euler-Bernoulli) beam theory" the motion of a beam
                  is modelled by the 4th-order PDE
                  $$
                  EI fracpartial^4 wpartial x^4
                  = -mu fracpartial^2 wpartial t^2 + q.
                  $$






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  In
                  "classical
                  (Euler-Bernoulli) beam theory" the motion of a beam
                  is modelled by the 4th-order PDE
                  $$
                  EI fracpartial^4 wpartial x^4
                  = -mu fracpartial^2 wpartial t^2 + q.
                  $$







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  answered Jun 29 at 0:47


























                  community wiki





                  Noam D. Elkies








                  • 2




                    $begingroup$
                    The 2-d analogue of Euler's elastica is the Willmore equation $Delta_gH+2H(H^2−K)=0$, where $g$ is the metric (of the underlying immersion), $H$ is the mean curvature ($1/2$ of the Laplacian for a flat metric) and $K$ is the Gauss curvature, which is essentially the geometric version of the bi-Laplacian. This equation is also $4$th-order.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Paul-Benjamin
                    Jul 1 at 17:43













                  • 2




                    $begingroup$
                    The 2-d analogue of Euler's elastica is the Willmore equation $Delta_gH+2H(H^2−K)=0$, where $g$ is the metric (of the underlying immersion), $H$ is the mean curvature ($1/2$ of the Laplacian for a flat metric) and $K$ is the Gauss curvature, which is essentially the geometric version of the bi-Laplacian. This equation is also $4$th-order.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Paul-Benjamin
                    Jul 1 at 17:43








                  2




                  2




                  $begingroup$
                  The 2-d analogue of Euler's elastica is the Willmore equation $Delta_gH+2H(H^2−K)=0$, where $g$ is the metric (of the underlying immersion), $H$ is the mean curvature ($1/2$ of the Laplacian for a flat metric) and $K$ is the Gauss curvature, which is essentially the geometric version of the bi-Laplacian. This equation is also $4$th-order.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Paul-Benjamin
                  Jul 1 at 17:43





                  $begingroup$
                  The 2-d analogue of Euler's elastica is the Willmore equation $Delta_gH+2H(H^2−K)=0$, where $g$ is the metric (of the underlying immersion), $H$ is the mean curvature ($1/2$ of the Laplacian for a flat metric) and $K$ is the Gauss curvature, which is essentially the geometric version of the bi-Laplacian. This equation is also $4$th-order.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Paul-Benjamin
                  Jul 1 at 17:43












                  26












                  $begingroup$

                  Nonlinear solitonic wave equations often feature high($3^+$) order of derivatives.



                  The most famous one may be the KdV equation: $partial_t phi + partial_xxx phi -6 phi partial_x phi = 0$.



                  There is also the Boussinesq equation $partial_tt phi - partial_xx phi -alpha partial_tt (phi^2) - partial_xxxx phi = 0$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$








                  • 4




                    $begingroup$
                    To add to this, Lax pairs (which these kinds of equations often have) can be used to easily form a hierarchy of high order PDEs with no restrictions on their order.
                    $endgroup$
                    – user41208
                    Jun 29 at 13:34
















                  26












                  $begingroup$

                  Nonlinear solitonic wave equations often feature high($3^+$) order of derivatives.



                  The most famous one may be the KdV equation: $partial_t phi + partial_xxx phi -6 phi partial_x phi = 0$.



                  There is also the Boussinesq equation $partial_tt phi - partial_xx phi -alpha partial_tt (phi^2) - partial_xxxx phi = 0$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$








                  • 4




                    $begingroup$
                    To add to this, Lax pairs (which these kinds of equations often have) can be used to easily form a hierarchy of high order PDEs with no restrictions on their order.
                    $endgroup$
                    – user41208
                    Jun 29 at 13:34














                  26












                  26








                  26





                  $begingroup$

                  Nonlinear solitonic wave equations often feature high($3^+$) order of derivatives.



                  The most famous one may be the KdV equation: $partial_t phi + partial_xxx phi -6 phi partial_x phi = 0$.



                  There is also the Boussinesq equation $partial_tt phi - partial_xx phi -alpha partial_tt (phi^2) - partial_xxxx phi = 0$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  Nonlinear solitonic wave equations often feature high($3^+$) order of derivatives.



                  The most famous one may be the KdV equation: $partial_t phi + partial_xxx phi -6 phi partial_x phi = 0$.



                  There is also the Boussinesq equation $partial_tt phi - partial_xx phi -alpha partial_tt (phi^2) - partial_xxxx phi = 0$.







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  answered Jun 29 at 4:33


























                  community wiki





                  Bullet51








                  • 4




                    $begingroup$
                    To add to this, Lax pairs (which these kinds of equations often have) can be used to easily form a hierarchy of high order PDEs with no restrictions on their order.
                    $endgroup$
                    – user41208
                    Jun 29 at 13:34













                  • 4




                    $begingroup$
                    To add to this, Lax pairs (which these kinds of equations often have) can be used to easily form a hierarchy of high order PDEs with no restrictions on their order.
                    $endgroup$
                    – user41208
                    Jun 29 at 13:34








                  4




                  4




                  $begingroup$
                  To add to this, Lax pairs (which these kinds of equations often have) can be used to easily form a hierarchy of high order PDEs with no restrictions on their order.
                  $endgroup$
                  – user41208
                  Jun 29 at 13:34





                  $begingroup$
                  To add to this, Lax pairs (which these kinds of equations often have) can be used to easily form a hierarchy of high order PDEs with no restrictions on their order.
                  $endgroup$
                  – user41208
                  Jun 29 at 13:34












                  22












                  $begingroup$

                  In optimal transport, there is a quantity known as the MTW tensor [1] which depends on the fourth derivatives of the cost function. The regularity theory of transport depends in a crucial way on the sign of this tensor. Unless the MTW tensor non-negative definite, the optimal map can fail to be continuous, even when the measures are smooth and satisfy a necessary convexity condition [2]. As a result of this, much of the regularity theory depends on the cost function being $C^4$, although it is possible to make some of the theory work when the cost function is $C^3$ [3].



                  For a more complete story, there is a survey paper of De Phillipis and Figalli which gives a good overview of the theory [4].



                  [1] Ma, Xi-Nan; Trudinger, Neil S.; Wang, Xu-Jia, Regularity of potential functions of the optimal transportation problem, Arch. Ration. Mech. Anal. 177, No. 2, 151-183 (2005). ZBL1072.49035.



                  [2] Loeper, Grégoire, On the regularity of solutions of optimal transportation problems, Acta Math. 202, No. 2, 241-283 (2009). ZBL1219.49038.



                  [3] Guillen, Nestor; Kitagawa, Jun, On the local geometry of maps with c-convex potentials, Calc. Var. Partial Differ. Equ. 52, No. 1-2, 345-387 (2015). ZBL1309.35038..



                  [4] De Philippis, Guido; Figalli, Alessio, The Monge-Ampère equation and its link to optimal transportation, ZBL06377770.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$








                  • 4




                    $begingroup$
                    A tensor is named MTW and that doesn't stand for Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler. I am a bit surprised.
                    $endgroup$
                    – KConrad
                    Jun 29 at 5:29










                  • $begingroup$
                    Yeah, it's definitely a coincidence. The tensor is also called the "cost-sectional curvature," which might be easier to remember/google.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Gabe K
                    Jun 29 at 13:13






                  • 4




                    $begingroup$
                    @KConrad $-$ while on the workweek calendar, MTW is dual to WTF . . .
                    $endgroup$
                    – Noam D. Elkies
                    Jun 29 at 14:01















                  22












                  $begingroup$

                  In optimal transport, there is a quantity known as the MTW tensor [1] which depends on the fourth derivatives of the cost function. The regularity theory of transport depends in a crucial way on the sign of this tensor. Unless the MTW tensor non-negative definite, the optimal map can fail to be continuous, even when the measures are smooth and satisfy a necessary convexity condition [2]. As a result of this, much of the regularity theory depends on the cost function being $C^4$, although it is possible to make some of the theory work when the cost function is $C^3$ [3].



                  For a more complete story, there is a survey paper of De Phillipis and Figalli which gives a good overview of the theory [4].



                  [1] Ma, Xi-Nan; Trudinger, Neil S.; Wang, Xu-Jia, Regularity of potential functions of the optimal transportation problem, Arch. Ration. Mech. Anal. 177, No. 2, 151-183 (2005). ZBL1072.49035.



                  [2] Loeper, Grégoire, On the regularity of solutions of optimal transportation problems, Acta Math. 202, No. 2, 241-283 (2009). ZBL1219.49038.



                  [3] Guillen, Nestor; Kitagawa, Jun, On the local geometry of maps with c-convex potentials, Calc. Var. Partial Differ. Equ. 52, No. 1-2, 345-387 (2015). ZBL1309.35038..



                  [4] De Philippis, Guido; Figalli, Alessio, The Monge-Ampère equation and its link to optimal transportation, ZBL06377770.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$








                  • 4




                    $begingroup$
                    A tensor is named MTW and that doesn't stand for Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler. I am a bit surprised.
                    $endgroup$
                    – KConrad
                    Jun 29 at 5:29










                  • $begingroup$
                    Yeah, it's definitely a coincidence. The tensor is also called the "cost-sectional curvature," which might be easier to remember/google.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Gabe K
                    Jun 29 at 13:13






                  • 4




                    $begingroup$
                    @KConrad $-$ while on the workweek calendar, MTW is dual to WTF . . .
                    $endgroup$
                    – Noam D. Elkies
                    Jun 29 at 14:01













                  22












                  22








                  22





                  $begingroup$

                  In optimal transport, there is a quantity known as the MTW tensor [1] which depends on the fourth derivatives of the cost function. The regularity theory of transport depends in a crucial way on the sign of this tensor. Unless the MTW tensor non-negative definite, the optimal map can fail to be continuous, even when the measures are smooth and satisfy a necessary convexity condition [2]. As a result of this, much of the regularity theory depends on the cost function being $C^4$, although it is possible to make some of the theory work when the cost function is $C^3$ [3].



                  For a more complete story, there is a survey paper of De Phillipis and Figalli which gives a good overview of the theory [4].



                  [1] Ma, Xi-Nan; Trudinger, Neil S.; Wang, Xu-Jia, Regularity of potential functions of the optimal transportation problem, Arch. Ration. Mech. Anal. 177, No. 2, 151-183 (2005). ZBL1072.49035.



                  [2] Loeper, Grégoire, On the regularity of solutions of optimal transportation problems, Acta Math. 202, No. 2, 241-283 (2009). ZBL1219.49038.



                  [3] Guillen, Nestor; Kitagawa, Jun, On the local geometry of maps with c-convex potentials, Calc. Var. Partial Differ. Equ. 52, No. 1-2, 345-387 (2015). ZBL1309.35038..



                  [4] De Philippis, Guido; Figalli, Alessio, The Monge-Ampère equation and its link to optimal transportation, ZBL06377770.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  In optimal transport, there is a quantity known as the MTW tensor [1] which depends on the fourth derivatives of the cost function. The regularity theory of transport depends in a crucial way on the sign of this tensor. Unless the MTW tensor non-negative definite, the optimal map can fail to be continuous, even when the measures are smooth and satisfy a necessary convexity condition [2]. As a result of this, much of the regularity theory depends on the cost function being $C^4$, although it is possible to make some of the theory work when the cost function is $C^3$ [3].



                  For a more complete story, there is a survey paper of De Phillipis and Figalli which gives a good overview of the theory [4].



                  [1] Ma, Xi-Nan; Trudinger, Neil S.; Wang, Xu-Jia, Regularity of potential functions of the optimal transportation problem, Arch. Ration. Mech. Anal. 177, No. 2, 151-183 (2005). ZBL1072.49035.



                  [2] Loeper, Grégoire, On the regularity of solutions of optimal transportation problems, Acta Math. 202, No. 2, 241-283 (2009). ZBL1219.49038.



                  [3] Guillen, Nestor; Kitagawa, Jun, On the local geometry of maps with c-convex potentials, Calc. Var. Partial Differ. Equ. 52, No. 1-2, 345-387 (2015). ZBL1309.35038..



                  [4] De Philippis, Guido; Figalli, Alessio, The Monge-Ampère equation and its link to optimal transportation, ZBL06377770.







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited Jun 29 at 3:29


























                  community wiki





                  Gabe K








                  • 4




                    $begingroup$
                    A tensor is named MTW and that doesn't stand for Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler. I am a bit surprised.
                    $endgroup$
                    – KConrad
                    Jun 29 at 5:29










                  • $begingroup$
                    Yeah, it's definitely a coincidence. The tensor is also called the "cost-sectional curvature," which might be easier to remember/google.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Gabe K
                    Jun 29 at 13:13






                  • 4




                    $begingroup$
                    @KConrad $-$ while on the workweek calendar, MTW is dual to WTF . . .
                    $endgroup$
                    – Noam D. Elkies
                    Jun 29 at 14:01












                  • 4




                    $begingroup$
                    A tensor is named MTW and that doesn't stand for Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler. I am a bit surprised.
                    $endgroup$
                    – KConrad
                    Jun 29 at 5:29










                  • $begingroup$
                    Yeah, it's definitely a coincidence. The tensor is also called the "cost-sectional curvature," which might be easier to remember/google.
                    $endgroup$
                    – Gabe K
                    Jun 29 at 13:13






                  • 4




                    $begingroup$
                    @KConrad $-$ while on the workweek calendar, MTW is dual to WTF . . .
                    $endgroup$
                    – Noam D. Elkies
                    Jun 29 at 14:01







                  4




                  4




                  $begingroup$
                  A tensor is named MTW and that doesn't stand for Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler. I am a bit surprised.
                  $endgroup$
                  – KConrad
                  Jun 29 at 5:29




                  $begingroup$
                  A tensor is named MTW and that doesn't stand for Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler. I am a bit surprised.
                  $endgroup$
                  – KConrad
                  Jun 29 at 5:29












                  $begingroup$
                  Yeah, it's definitely a coincidence. The tensor is also called the "cost-sectional curvature," which might be easier to remember/google.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Gabe K
                  Jun 29 at 13:13




                  $begingroup$
                  Yeah, it's definitely a coincidence. The tensor is also called the "cost-sectional curvature," which might be easier to remember/google.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Gabe K
                  Jun 29 at 13:13




                  4




                  4




                  $begingroup$
                  @KConrad $-$ while on the workweek calendar, MTW is dual to WTF . . .
                  $endgroup$
                  – Noam D. Elkies
                  Jun 29 at 14:01




                  $begingroup$
                  @KConrad $-$ while on the workweek calendar, MTW is dual to WTF . . .
                  $endgroup$
                  – Noam D. Elkies
                  Jun 29 at 14:01











                  17












                  $begingroup$

                  The Kuramoto-Sivashinsky equation
                  $$partial_tu+Delta^2u+Delta u+frac12|nabla u|^2=0$$
                  where $Delta$ is the Laplace operator (second order) was derived to model diffusive instabilities in a laminar flame. There is a huge literature about it.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$

















                    17












                    $begingroup$

                    The Kuramoto-Sivashinsky equation
                    $$partial_tu+Delta^2u+Delta u+frac12|nabla u|^2=0$$
                    where $Delta$ is the Laplace operator (second order) was derived to model diffusive instabilities in a laminar flame. There is a huge literature about it.






                    share|cite|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$















                      17












                      17








                      17





                      $begingroup$

                      The Kuramoto-Sivashinsky equation
                      $$partial_tu+Delta^2u+Delta u+frac12|nabla u|^2=0$$
                      where $Delta$ is the Laplace operator (second order) was derived to model diffusive instabilities in a laminar flame. There is a huge literature about it.






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$



                      The Kuramoto-Sivashinsky equation
                      $$partial_tu+Delta^2u+Delta u+frac12|nabla u|^2=0$$
                      where $Delta$ is the Laplace operator (second order) was derived to model diffusive instabilities in a laminar flame. There is a huge literature about it.







                      share|cite|improve this answer














                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer








                      answered Jun 29 at 5:36


























                      community wiki





                      Denis Serre






















                          13












                          $begingroup$

                          Third derivatives (and higher) show up naturally in the study of affine and projective geometry. Perhaps most notably in the Schwarzian.



                          The Bochner formula also involves three derivatives and is a fundamental tool in geometric analysis. There are a number of important computations in the same spirit that sometimes require four derivatives (e.g. Simons' identity for minimal surfaces).






                          share|cite|improve this answer











                          $endgroup$

















                            13












                            $begingroup$

                            Third derivatives (and higher) show up naturally in the study of affine and projective geometry. Perhaps most notably in the Schwarzian.



                            The Bochner formula also involves three derivatives and is a fundamental tool in geometric analysis. There are a number of important computations in the same spirit that sometimes require four derivatives (e.g. Simons' identity for minimal surfaces).






                            share|cite|improve this answer











                            $endgroup$















                              13












                              13








                              13





                              $begingroup$

                              Third derivatives (and higher) show up naturally in the study of affine and projective geometry. Perhaps most notably in the Schwarzian.



                              The Bochner formula also involves three derivatives and is a fundamental tool in geometric analysis. There are a number of important computations in the same spirit that sometimes require four derivatives (e.g. Simons' identity for minimal surfaces).






                              share|cite|improve this answer











                              $endgroup$



                              Third derivatives (and higher) show up naturally in the study of affine and projective geometry. Perhaps most notably in the Schwarzian.



                              The Bochner formula also involves three derivatives and is a fundamental tool in geometric analysis. There are a number of important computations in the same spirit that sometimes require four derivatives (e.g. Simons' identity for minimal surfaces).







                              share|cite|improve this answer














                              share|cite|improve this answer



                              share|cite|improve this answer








                              answered Jun 29 at 2:02


























                              community wiki





                              RBega2






















                                  12












                                  $begingroup$

                                  In Kahler geometry, and many other places, (Riemannian) metrics are often (sometimes) prescribed via a potential function, which involves two derivatives. Therefore, the fundamental invariants, like the Riemann curvature tensor, involve fourth derivatives of this function.



                                  As for arbitrarily high derivatives, one place these arise naturally is the study of Lie groups $G$ and their homogeneous spaces $G/H.$ For instance, one may ask if there is a "differential operator" acting on locally defined diffeomorphisms of $G/H$ whose kernel consists exactly of those arising from the left $G$-action. As noted by RBega2 above, for $G=PSL(2, mathbbC)$ and $G/H=mathbbCP^1$ one is led to the Schwarzian derivative, a non-linear third order differential operator.
                                  This question was studied in general by Spencer in the 1960's resulting in the so-called Spencer complex.



                                  Nonetheless, both of these cases might be more high brow than the OP was looking for.






                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                  $endgroup$












                                  • $begingroup$
                                    This is a good answer and I think it's worth noting the connection of your first example to optimal transport. In particular, the MTW tensor can be understood as a curvature tensor for a certain pseudo-Riemannian metric or (in some cases) as the orthogonal bisectional curvature of a particular Kahler metric.
                                    $endgroup$
                                    – Gabe K
                                    Jul 2 at 12:55















                                  12












                                  $begingroup$

                                  In Kahler geometry, and many other places, (Riemannian) metrics are often (sometimes) prescribed via a potential function, which involves two derivatives. Therefore, the fundamental invariants, like the Riemann curvature tensor, involve fourth derivatives of this function.



                                  As for arbitrarily high derivatives, one place these arise naturally is the study of Lie groups $G$ and their homogeneous spaces $G/H.$ For instance, one may ask if there is a "differential operator" acting on locally defined diffeomorphisms of $G/H$ whose kernel consists exactly of those arising from the left $G$-action. As noted by RBega2 above, for $G=PSL(2, mathbbC)$ and $G/H=mathbbCP^1$ one is led to the Schwarzian derivative, a non-linear third order differential operator.
                                  This question was studied in general by Spencer in the 1960's resulting in the so-called Spencer complex.



                                  Nonetheless, both of these cases might be more high brow than the OP was looking for.






                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                  $endgroup$












                                  • $begingroup$
                                    This is a good answer and I think it's worth noting the connection of your first example to optimal transport. In particular, the MTW tensor can be understood as a curvature tensor for a certain pseudo-Riemannian metric or (in some cases) as the orthogonal bisectional curvature of a particular Kahler metric.
                                    $endgroup$
                                    – Gabe K
                                    Jul 2 at 12:55













                                  12












                                  12








                                  12





                                  $begingroup$

                                  In Kahler geometry, and many other places, (Riemannian) metrics are often (sometimes) prescribed via a potential function, which involves two derivatives. Therefore, the fundamental invariants, like the Riemann curvature tensor, involve fourth derivatives of this function.



                                  As for arbitrarily high derivatives, one place these arise naturally is the study of Lie groups $G$ and their homogeneous spaces $G/H.$ For instance, one may ask if there is a "differential operator" acting on locally defined diffeomorphisms of $G/H$ whose kernel consists exactly of those arising from the left $G$-action. As noted by RBega2 above, for $G=PSL(2, mathbbC)$ and $G/H=mathbbCP^1$ one is led to the Schwarzian derivative, a non-linear third order differential operator.
                                  This question was studied in general by Spencer in the 1960's resulting in the so-called Spencer complex.



                                  Nonetheless, both of these cases might be more high brow than the OP was looking for.






                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                  $endgroup$



                                  In Kahler geometry, and many other places, (Riemannian) metrics are often (sometimes) prescribed via a potential function, which involves two derivatives. Therefore, the fundamental invariants, like the Riemann curvature tensor, involve fourth derivatives of this function.



                                  As for arbitrarily high derivatives, one place these arise naturally is the study of Lie groups $G$ and their homogeneous spaces $G/H.$ For instance, one may ask if there is a "differential operator" acting on locally defined diffeomorphisms of $G/H$ whose kernel consists exactly of those arising from the left $G$-action. As noted by RBega2 above, for $G=PSL(2, mathbbC)$ and $G/H=mathbbCP^1$ one is led to the Schwarzian derivative, a non-linear third order differential operator.
                                  This question was studied in general by Spencer in the 1960's resulting in the so-called Spencer complex.



                                  Nonetheless, both of these cases might be more high brow than the OP was looking for.







                                  share|cite|improve this answer














                                  share|cite|improve this answer



                                  share|cite|improve this answer








                                  answered Jun 29 at 15:30


























                                  community wiki





                                  Andy Sanders












                                  • $begingroup$
                                    This is a good answer and I think it's worth noting the connection of your first example to optimal transport. In particular, the MTW tensor can be understood as a curvature tensor for a certain pseudo-Riemannian metric or (in some cases) as the orthogonal bisectional curvature of a particular Kahler metric.
                                    $endgroup$
                                    – Gabe K
                                    Jul 2 at 12:55
















                                  • $begingroup$
                                    This is a good answer and I think it's worth noting the connection of your first example to optimal transport. In particular, the MTW tensor can be understood as a curvature tensor for a certain pseudo-Riemannian metric or (in some cases) as the orthogonal bisectional curvature of a particular Kahler metric.
                                    $endgroup$
                                    – Gabe K
                                    Jul 2 at 12:55















                                  $begingroup$
                                  This is a good answer and I think it's worth noting the connection of your first example to optimal transport. In particular, the MTW tensor can be understood as a curvature tensor for a certain pseudo-Riemannian metric or (in some cases) as the orthogonal bisectional curvature of a particular Kahler metric.
                                  $endgroup$
                                  – Gabe K
                                  Jul 2 at 12:55




                                  $begingroup$
                                  This is a good answer and I think it's worth noting the connection of your first example to optimal transport. In particular, the MTW tensor can be understood as a curvature tensor for a certain pseudo-Riemannian metric or (in some cases) as the orthogonal bisectional curvature of a particular Kahler metric.
                                  $endgroup$
                                  – Gabe K
                                  Jul 2 at 12:55











                                  12












                                  $begingroup$

                                  As a roboticist, I always pay close attention to the 3rd derivative of position with respect to time when generating a motion for a given robot. The 3rd derivative of position is most often referred to as the "jerk" and quantifies the smoothness of a motion. See http://courses.shadmehrlab.org/Shortcourse/minimumjerk.pdf article for a great description of jerk.



                                  In general, people will try to minimize the jerk to obtain a smooth motion for the robot. If position as a function of time is specified by $x(t)$, then the jerk is



                                  $dddotx(t) = fracd^3 x(t)dt^3$






                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                  $endgroup$

















                                    12












                                    $begingroup$

                                    As a roboticist, I always pay close attention to the 3rd derivative of position with respect to time when generating a motion for a given robot. The 3rd derivative of position is most often referred to as the "jerk" and quantifies the smoothness of a motion. See http://courses.shadmehrlab.org/Shortcourse/minimumjerk.pdf article for a great description of jerk.



                                    In general, people will try to minimize the jerk to obtain a smooth motion for the robot. If position as a function of time is specified by $x(t)$, then the jerk is



                                    $dddotx(t) = fracd^3 x(t)dt^3$






                                    share|cite|improve this answer











                                    $endgroup$















                                      12












                                      12








                                      12





                                      $begingroup$

                                      As a roboticist, I always pay close attention to the 3rd derivative of position with respect to time when generating a motion for a given robot. The 3rd derivative of position is most often referred to as the "jerk" and quantifies the smoothness of a motion. See http://courses.shadmehrlab.org/Shortcourse/minimumjerk.pdf article for a great description of jerk.



                                      In general, people will try to minimize the jerk to obtain a smooth motion for the robot. If position as a function of time is specified by $x(t)$, then the jerk is



                                      $dddotx(t) = fracd^3 x(t)dt^3$






                                      share|cite|improve this answer











                                      $endgroup$



                                      As a roboticist, I always pay close attention to the 3rd derivative of position with respect to time when generating a motion for a given robot. The 3rd derivative of position is most often referred to as the "jerk" and quantifies the smoothness of a motion. See http://courses.shadmehrlab.org/Shortcourse/minimumjerk.pdf article for a great description of jerk.



                                      In general, people will try to minimize the jerk to obtain a smooth motion for the robot. If position as a function of time is specified by $x(t)$, then the jerk is



                                      $dddotx(t) = fracd^3 x(t)dt^3$







                                      share|cite|improve this answer














                                      share|cite|improve this answer



                                      share|cite|improve this answer








                                      edited Jun 30 at 17:12


























                                      community wiki





                                      2 revs
                                      Martin Fevre






















                                          11












                                          $begingroup$

                                          The OP says




                                          And the torsion of a curve in $mathbb R^3$
                                          can be expressed using 3rd derivatives.




                                          More generally,




                                          a curve in $mathbb R^3$ is described up to isometry by the derivatives up to order $3$.




                                          But then is it not also true that




                                          a curve in $mathbb R^4$ is described up to isometry by the derivatives up to order $4$.




                                          and




                                          a curve in $mathbb R^5$ is described up to isometry by the derivatives up to order $5$.




                                          and so on?






                                          share|cite|improve this answer











                                          $endgroup$

















                                            11












                                            $begingroup$

                                            The OP says




                                            And the torsion of a curve in $mathbb R^3$
                                            can be expressed using 3rd derivatives.




                                            More generally,




                                            a curve in $mathbb R^3$ is described up to isometry by the derivatives up to order $3$.




                                            But then is it not also true that




                                            a curve in $mathbb R^4$ is described up to isometry by the derivatives up to order $4$.




                                            and




                                            a curve in $mathbb R^5$ is described up to isometry by the derivatives up to order $5$.




                                            and so on?






                                            share|cite|improve this answer











                                            $endgroup$















                                              11












                                              11








                                              11





                                              $begingroup$

                                              The OP says




                                              And the torsion of a curve in $mathbb R^3$
                                              can be expressed using 3rd derivatives.




                                              More generally,




                                              a curve in $mathbb R^3$ is described up to isometry by the derivatives up to order $3$.




                                              But then is it not also true that




                                              a curve in $mathbb R^4$ is described up to isometry by the derivatives up to order $4$.




                                              and




                                              a curve in $mathbb R^5$ is described up to isometry by the derivatives up to order $5$.




                                              and so on?






                                              share|cite|improve this answer











                                              $endgroup$



                                              The OP says




                                              And the torsion of a curve in $mathbb R^3$
                                              can be expressed using 3rd derivatives.




                                              More generally,




                                              a curve in $mathbb R^3$ is described up to isometry by the derivatives up to order $3$.




                                              But then is it not also true that




                                              a curve in $mathbb R^4$ is described up to isometry by the derivatives up to order $4$.




                                              and




                                              a curve in $mathbb R^5$ is described up to isometry by the derivatives up to order $5$.




                                              and so on?







                                              share|cite|improve this answer














                                              share|cite|improve this answer



                                              share|cite|improve this answer








                                              answered Jun 29 at 10:57


























                                              community wiki





                                              Gerald Edgar






















                                                  8












                                                  $begingroup$


                                                  What are examples of applications that depend on 4th-derivatives ...
                                                  or higher?




                                                  The Dirac equation is a system of four partial differential equations for four complex functions. However, in a general case, it is equivalent to one fourth-order equation for just one function (see references to my article).






                                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                                  $endgroup$

















                                                    8












                                                    $begingroup$


                                                    What are examples of applications that depend on 4th-derivatives ...
                                                    or higher?




                                                    The Dirac equation is a system of four partial differential equations for four complex functions. However, in a general case, it is equivalent to one fourth-order equation for just one function (see references to my article).






                                                    share|cite|improve this answer











                                                    $endgroup$















                                                      8












                                                      8








                                                      8





                                                      $begingroup$


                                                      What are examples of applications that depend on 4th-derivatives ...
                                                      or higher?




                                                      The Dirac equation is a system of four partial differential equations for four complex functions. However, in a general case, it is equivalent to one fourth-order equation for just one function (see references to my article).






                                                      share|cite|improve this answer











                                                      $endgroup$




                                                      What are examples of applications that depend on 4th-derivatives ...
                                                      or higher?




                                                      The Dirac equation is a system of four partial differential equations for four complex functions. However, in a general case, it is equivalent to one fourth-order equation for just one function (see references to my article).







                                                      share|cite|improve this answer














                                                      share|cite|improve this answer



                                                      share|cite|improve this answer








                                                      answered Jun 29 at 14:39


























                                                      community wiki





                                                      akhmeteli






















                                                          6












                                                          $begingroup$

                                                          A robotics application (similar to the one given by Martin Fevre) involves minimizing a function of the snap of a quadrotor's trajectory, where $mathrmsnap(t) :=fracmathrmd^4xmathrmdt^4$; here is a reference.






                                                          share|cite|improve this answer











                                                          $endgroup$

















                                                            6












                                                            $begingroup$

                                                            A robotics application (similar to the one given by Martin Fevre) involves minimizing a function of the snap of a quadrotor's trajectory, where $mathrmsnap(t) :=fracmathrmd^4xmathrmdt^4$; here is a reference.






                                                            share|cite|improve this answer











                                                            $endgroup$















                                                              6












                                                              6








                                                              6





                                                              $begingroup$

                                                              A robotics application (similar to the one given by Martin Fevre) involves minimizing a function of the snap of a quadrotor's trajectory, where $mathrmsnap(t) :=fracmathrmd^4xmathrmdt^4$; here is a reference.






                                                              share|cite|improve this answer











                                                              $endgroup$



                                                              A robotics application (similar to the one given by Martin Fevre) involves minimizing a function of the snap of a quadrotor's trajectory, where $mathrmsnap(t) :=fracmathrmd^4xmathrmdt^4$; here is a reference.







                                                              share|cite|improve this answer














                                                              share|cite|improve this answer



                                                              share|cite|improve this answer








                                                              answered Jun 29 at 19:21


























                                                              community wiki





                                                              Ganesh






















                                                                  6












                                                                  $begingroup$

                                                                  Similarly to Martin Fevre's answer:



                                                                  When routing a road for fast vehicles you need to minimize the rate of change of the road curvature so that the drivers wouldn't have to move the steering wheels in quick jerks. For example, a perfect transition from a circular roundabout to a linear road tangent to the roundabout would require an instantaneous steering wheel adjustment; that can be avoided by connecting the circle and the line with a ramp that has smoothly varying curvature.



                                                                  Since the curvature is essentially the 2nd derivative the rate of change of the curvature is the 3rd derivative, minimizing the rate of change of the curvature requires the 4th derivative.






                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                  $endgroup$








                                                                  • 3




                                                                    $begingroup$
                                                                    I've always been fascinated by the paths in grassy areas that emerge from people crossing with their preferred optimization. About 10 years ago, I googled this idea and found a paper by some robotics researchers in which they described experiments sending people walking around and mapping their trajectories. As I recall, their paths were VERY well approximated by the paths that minimized the total variation in the curvature (just as you say).
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – Jeff Strom
                                                                    Jul 1 at 22:09















                                                                  6












                                                                  $begingroup$

                                                                  Similarly to Martin Fevre's answer:



                                                                  When routing a road for fast vehicles you need to minimize the rate of change of the road curvature so that the drivers wouldn't have to move the steering wheels in quick jerks. For example, a perfect transition from a circular roundabout to a linear road tangent to the roundabout would require an instantaneous steering wheel adjustment; that can be avoided by connecting the circle and the line with a ramp that has smoothly varying curvature.



                                                                  Since the curvature is essentially the 2nd derivative the rate of change of the curvature is the 3rd derivative, minimizing the rate of change of the curvature requires the 4th derivative.






                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                  $endgroup$








                                                                  • 3




                                                                    $begingroup$
                                                                    I've always been fascinated by the paths in grassy areas that emerge from people crossing with their preferred optimization. About 10 years ago, I googled this idea and found a paper by some robotics researchers in which they described experiments sending people walking around and mapping their trajectories. As I recall, their paths were VERY well approximated by the paths that minimized the total variation in the curvature (just as you say).
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – Jeff Strom
                                                                    Jul 1 at 22:09













                                                                  6












                                                                  6








                                                                  6





                                                                  $begingroup$

                                                                  Similarly to Martin Fevre's answer:



                                                                  When routing a road for fast vehicles you need to minimize the rate of change of the road curvature so that the drivers wouldn't have to move the steering wheels in quick jerks. For example, a perfect transition from a circular roundabout to a linear road tangent to the roundabout would require an instantaneous steering wheel adjustment; that can be avoided by connecting the circle and the line with a ramp that has smoothly varying curvature.



                                                                  Since the curvature is essentially the 2nd derivative the rate of change of the curvature is the 3rd derivative, minimizing the rate of change of the curvature requires the 4th derivative.






                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                  $endgroup$



                                                                  Similarly to Martin Fevre's answer:



                                                                  When routing a road for fast vehicles you need to minimize the rate of change of the road curvature so that the drivers wouldn't have to move the steering wheels in quick jerks. For example, a perfect transition from a circular roundabout to a linear road tangent to the roundabout would require an instantaneous steering wheel adjustment; that can be avoided by connecting the circle and the line with a ramp that has smoothly varying curvature.



                                                                  Since the curvature is essentially the 2nd derivative the rate of change of the curvature is the 3rd derivative, minimizing the rate of change of the curvature requires the 4th derivative.







                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer














                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer



                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer








                                                                  answered Jul 1 at 21:37


























                                                                  community wiki





                                                                  Michael








                                                                  • 3




                                                                    $begingroup$
                                                                    I've always been fascinated by the paths in grassy areas that emerge from people crossing with their preferred optimization. About 10 years ago, I googled this idea and found a paper by some robotics researchers in which they described experiments sending people walking around and mapping their trajectories. As I recall, their paths were VERY well approximated by the paths that minimized the total variation in the curvature (just as you say).
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – Jeff Strom
                                                                    Jul 1 at 22:09












                                                                  • 3




                                                                    $begingroup$
                                                                    I've always been fascinated by the paths in grassy areas that emerge from people crossing with their preferred optimization. About 10 years ago, I googled this idea and found a paper by some robotics researchers in which they described experiments sending people walking around and mapping their trajectories. As I recall, their paths were VERY well approximated by the paths that minimized the total variation in the curvature (just as you say).
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – Jeff Strom
                                                                    Jul 1 at 22:09







                                                                  3




                                                                  3




                                                                  $begingroup$
                                                                  I've always been fascinated by the paths in grassy areas that emerge from people crossing with their preferred optimization. About 10 years ago, I googled this idea and found a paper by some robotics researchers in which they described experiments sending people walking around and mapping their trajectories. As I recall, their paths were VERY well approximated by the paths that minimized the total variation in the curvature (just as you say).
                                                                  $endgroup$
                                                                  – Jeff Strom
                                                                  Jul 1 at 22:09




                                                                  $begingroup$
                                                                  I've always been fascinated by the paths in grassy areas that emerge from people crossing with their preferred optimization. About 10 years ago, I googled this idea and found a paper by some robotics researchers in which they described experiments sending people walking around and mapping their trajectories. As I recall, their paths were VERY well approximated by the paths that minimized the total variation in the curvature (just as you say).
                                                                  $endgroup$
                                                                  – Jeff Strom
                                                                  Jul 1 at 22:09











                                                                  6












                                                                  $begingroup$

                                                                  In geometric measure theory (GMT), many theorems require more than four derivatives. This is in part due to the use of Nash embedding theorem (which require $C^3$). We will give two examples.



                                                                  Almgren's big regularity theorem (1983, 2000) required the manifold to be $C^5$, but De Lellis and Spadaro (2014) managed to reduce the needed regularity to $C^3,alpha$ for some $alpha>0$ (they also simplified and shortened a lot the proof).



                                                                  In Almgren-Pitts theory (1976-present day), the original result of Pitts (1981) concerning the existence of one closed minimal hypersurface in closed Riemannian manifolds of dimension $3leq nleq 6$ required the manifold to be $C^k$ with $kgeq mathrmmax4,n-1$ (and the minimal hypersurface will also be of class $C^k$).






                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                  $endgroup$












                                                                  • $begingroup$
                                                                    Quick question: For these theorems, is there a conjecture on what the minimal regularity is needed for these theorems?
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – Deane Yang
                                                                    Jul 2 at 14:43










                                                                  • $begingroup$
                                                                    @Deane Yang. Thank you, this is an interesting question. First, as the Simon's identity is used, one definitely requires the manifold be $C^3$ in Pitts's book. Likewise, the stronger curvature estimate of Schoen-Simon ((1981)(mathscinet.ams.org/mathscinet/search/…)) requires a $C^3$ regularity (and Nash embedding theorem is used). So this is probably the best one can do. Furthermore, by reading more carefully some statements in Pitts's book, theorems such as the "Decomposition theorem" are stated for manifolds at least $C^5$.
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – Paul-Benjamin
                                                                    Jul 3 at 13:42















                                                                  6












                                                                  $begingroup$

                                                                  In geometric measure theory (GMT), many theorems require more than four derivatives. This is in part due to the use of Nash embedding theorem (which require $C^3$). We will give two examples.



                                                                  Almgren's big regularity theorem (1983, 2000) required the manifold to be $C^5$, but De Lellis and Spadaro (2014) managed to reduce the needed regularity to $C^3,alpha$ for some $alpha>0$ (they also simplified and shortened a lot the proof).



                                                                  In Almgren-Pitts theory (1976-present day), the original result of Pitts (1981) concerning the existence of one closed minimal hypersurface in closed Riemannian manifolds of dimension $3leq nleq 6$ required the manifold to be $C^k$ with $kgeq mathrmmax4,n-1$ (and the minimal hypersurface will also be of class $C^k$).






                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                  $endgroup$












                                                                  • $begingroup$
                                                                    Quick question: For these theorems, is there a conjecture on what the minimal regularity is needed for these theorems?
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – Deane Yang
                                                                    Jul 2 at 14:43










                                                                  • $begingroup$
                                                                    @Deane Yang. Thank you, this is an interesting question. First, as the Simon's identity is used, one definitely requires the manifold be $C^3$ in Pitts's book. Likewise, the stronger curvature estimate of Schoen-Simon ((1981)(mathscinet.ams.org/mathscinet/search/…)) requires a $C^3$ regularity (and Nash embedding theorem is used). So this is probably the best one can do. Furthermore, by reading more carefully some statements in Pitts's book, theorems such as the "Decomposition theorem" are stated for manifolds at least $C^5$.
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – Paul-Benjamin
                                                                    Jul 3 at 13:42













                                                                  6












                                                                  6








                                                                  6





                                                                  $begingroup$

                                                                  In geometric measure theory (GMT), many theorems require more than four derivatives. This is in part due to the use of Nash embedding theorem (which require $C^3$). We will give two examples.



                                                                  Almgren's big regularity theorem (1983, 2000) required the manifold to be $C^5$, but De Lellis and Spadaro (2014) managed to reduce the needed regularity to $C^3,alpha$ for some $alpha>0$ (they also simplified and shortened a lot the proof).



                                                                  In Almgren-Pitts theory (1976-present day), the original result of Pitts (1981) concerning the existence of one closed minimal hypersurface in closed Riemannian manifolds of dimension $3leq nleq 6$ required the manifold to be $C^k$ with $kgeq mathrmmax4,n-1$ (and the minimal hypersurface will also be of class $C^k$).






                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                  $endgroup$



                                                                  In geometric measure theory (GMT), many theorems require more than four derivatives. This is in part due to the use of Nash embedding theorem (which require $C^3$). We will give two examples.



                                                                  Almgren's big regularity theorem (1983, 2000) required the manifold to be $C^5$, but De Lellis and Spadaro (2014) managed to reduce the needed regularity to $C^3,alpha$ for some $alpha>0$ (they also simplified and shortened a lot the proof).



                                                                  In Almgren-Pitts theory (1976-present day), the original result of Pitts (1981) concerning the existence of one closed minimal hypersurface in closed Riemannian manifolds of dimension $3leq nleq 6$ required the manifold to be $C^k$ with $kgeq mathrmmax4,n-1$ (and the minimal hypersurface will also be of class $C^k$).







                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer














                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer



                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer








                                                                  edited Jul 2 at 6:59


























                                                                  community wiki





                                                                  2 revs
                                                                  Paul-Benjamin












                                                                  • $begingroup$
                                                                    Quick question: For these theorems, is there a conjecture on what the minimal regularity is needed for these theorems?
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – Deane Yang
                                                                    Jul 2 at 14:43










                                                                  • $begingroup$
                                                                    @Deane Yang. Thank you, this is an interesting question. First, as the Simon's identity is used, one definitely requires the manifold be $C^3$ in Pitts's book. Likewise, the stronger curvature estimate of Schoen-Simon ((1981)(mathscinet.ams.org/mathscinet/search/…)) requires a $C^3$ regularity (and Nash embedding theorem is used). So this is probably the best one can do. Furthermore, by reading more carefully some statements in Pitts's book, theorems such as the "Decomposition theorem" are stated for manifolds at least $C^5$.
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – Paul-Benjamin
                                                                    Jul 3 at 13:42
















                                                                  • $begingroup$
                                                                    Quick question: For these theorems, is there a conjecture on what the minimal regularity is needed for these theorems?
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – Deane Yang
                                                                    Jul 2 at 14:43










                                                                  • $begingroup$
                                                                    @Deane Yang. Thank you, this is an interesting question. First, as the Simon's identity is used, one definitely requires the manifold be $C^3$ in Pitts's book. Likewise, the stronger curvature estimate of Schoen-Simon ((1981)(mathscinet.ams.org/mathscinet/search/…)) requires a $C^3$ regularity (and Nash embedding theorem is used). So this is probably the best one can do. Furthermore, by reading more carefully some statements in Pitts's book, theorems such as the "Decomposition theorem" are stated for manifolds at least $C^5$.
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – Paul-Benjamin
                                                                    Jul 3 at 13:42















                                                                  $begingroup$
                                                                  Quick question: For these theorems, is there a conjecture on what the minimal regularity is needed for these theorems?
                                                                  $endgroup$
                                                                  – Deane Yang
                                                                  Jul 2 at 14:43




                                                                  $begingroup$
                                                                  Quick question: For these theorems, is there a conjecture on what the minimal regularity is needed for these theorems?
                                                                  $endgroup$
                                                                  – Deane Yang
                                                                  Jul 2 at 14:43












                                                                  $begingroup$
                                                                  @Deane Yang. Thank you, this is an interesting question. First, as the Simon's identity is used, one definitely requires the manifold be $C^3$ in Pitts's book. Likewise, the stronger curvature estimate of Schoen-Simon ((1981)(mathscinet.ams.org/mathscinet/search/…)) requires a $C^3$ regularity (and Nash embedding theorem is used). So this is probably the best one can do. Furthermore, by reading more carefully some statements in Pitts's book, theorems such as the "Decomposition theorem" are stated for manifolds at least $C^5$.
                                                                  $endgroup$
                                                                  – Paul-Benjamin
                                                                  Jul 3 at 13:42




                                                                  $begingroup$
                                                                  @Deane Yang. Thank you, this is an interesting question. First, as the Simon's identity is used, one definitely requires the manifold be $C^3$ in Pitts's book. Likewise, the stronger curvature estimate of Schoen-Simon ((1981)(mathscinet.ams.org/mathscinet/search/…)) requires a $C^3$ regularity (and Nash embedding theorem is used). So this is probably the best one can do. Furthermore, by reading more carefully some statements in Pitts's book, theorems such as the "Decomposition theorem" are stated for manifolds at least $C^5$.
                                                                  $endgroup$
                                                                  – Paul-Benjamin
                                                                  Jul 3 at 13:42











                                                                  5












                                                                  $begingroup$

                                                                  This is probably a stretch, but the theory of distributions is highly relevant to a large chunk of applied math and heavily relies on functions which have derivatives of arbitrarily high order.






                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                  $endgroup$








                                                                  • 3




                                                                    $begingroup$
                                                                    For example, in microlocal analysis sufficient regularity of functions is often needed so that their Fourier transforms decay fast enough, which, in turn, is needed in order that certain integrals converge. Although the theory of distributions is always presented in the smooth category, I believe it's not necessary. As far as I know, derivatives of arbitrarily high order are never really needed in any application of distribution theory. Do you know an example of where they are?
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – Deane Yang
                                                                    Jun 29 at 14:12







                                                                  • 1




                                                                    $begingroup$
                                                                    @Deane Yang: maybe Ruelle resonances? Given a hyperbolic map $T$, the eigenvalues of the composition operator $f mapsto f circ T$ are not functions, but distributions; and in general, there are such eigendistributions of arbitrarily high order (so which have to be integrated against arbitrarily smooth functions).
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – D. Thomine
                                                                    Jun 30 at 19:53
















                                                                  5












                                                                  $begingroup$

                                                                  This is probably a stretch, but the theory of distributions is highly relevant to a large chunk of applied math and heavily relies on functions which have derivatives of arbitrarily high order.






                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                  $endgroup$








                                                                  • 3




                                                                    $begingroup$
                                                                    For example, in microlocal analysis sufficient regularity of functions is often needed so that their Fourier transforms decay fast enough, which, in turn, is needed in order that certain integrals converge. Although the theory of distributions is always presented in the smooth category, I believe it's not necessary. As far as I know, derivatives of arbitrarily high order are never really needed in any application of distribution theory. Do you know an example of where they are?
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – Deane Yang
                                                                    Jun 29 at 14:12







                                                                  • 1




                                                                    $begingroup$
                                                                    @Deane Yang: maybe Ruelle resonances? Given a hyperbolic map $T$, the eigenvalues of the composition operator $f mapsto f circ T$ are not functions, but distributions; and in general, there are such eigendistributions of arbitrarily high order (so which have to be integrated against arbitrarily smooth functions).
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – D. Thomine
                                                                    Jun 30 at 19:53














                                                                  5












                                                                  5








                                                                  5





                                                                  $begingroup$

                                                                  This is probably a stretch, but the theory of distributions is highly relevant to a large chunk of applied math and heavily relies on functions which have derivatives of arbitrarily high order.






                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                  $endgroup$



                                                                  This is probably a stretch, but the theory of distributions is highly relevant to a large chunk of applied math and heavily relies on functions which have derivatives of arbitrarily high order.







                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer














                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer



                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer








                                                                  answered Jun 29 at 8:47


























                                                                  community wiki





                                                                  Dirk








                                                                  • 3




                                                                    $begingroup$
                                                                    For example, in microlocal analysis sufficient regularity of functions is often needed so that their Fourier transforms decay fast enough, which, in turn, is needed in order that certain integrals converge. Although the theory of distributions is always presented in the smooth category, I believe it's not necessary. As far as I know, derivatives of arbitrarily high order are never really needed in any application of distribution theory. Do you know an example of where they are?
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – Deane Yang
                                                                    Jun 29 at 14:12







                                                                  • 1




                                                                    $begingroup$
                                                                    @Deane Yang: maybe Ruelle resonances? Given a hyperbolic map $T$, the eigenvalues of the composition operator $f mapsto f circ T$ are not functions, but distributions; and in general, there are such eigendistributions of arbitrarily high order (so which have to be integrated against arbitrarily smooth functions).
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – D. Thomine
                                                                    Jun 30 at 19:53













                                                                  • 3




                                                                    $begingroup$
                                                                    For example, in microlocal analysis sufficient regularity of functions is often needed so that their Fourier transforms decay fast enough, which, in turn, is needed in order that certain integrals converge. Although the theory of distributions is always presented in the smooth category, I believe it's not necessary. As far as I know, derivatives of arbitrarily high order are never really needed in any application of distribution theory. Do you know an example of where they are?
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – Deane Yang
                                                                    Jun 29 at 14:12







                                                                  • 1




                                                                    $begingroup$
                                                                    @Deane Yang: maybe Ruelle resonances? Given a hyperbolic map $T$, the eigenvalues of the composition operator $f mapsto f circ T$ are not functions, but distributions; and in general, there are such eigendistributions of arbitrarily high order (so which have to be integrated against arbitrarily smooth functions).
                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                    – D. Thomine
                                                                    Jun 30 at 19:53








                                                                  3




                                                                  3




                                                                  $begingroup$
                                                                  For example, in microlocal analysis sufficient regularity of functions is often needed so that their Fourier transforms decay fast enough, which, in turn, is needed in order that certain integrals converge. Although the theory of distributions is always presented in the smooth category, I believe it's not necessary. As far as I know, derivatives of arbitrarily high order are never really needed in any application of distribution theory. Do you know an example of where they are?
                                                                  $endgroup$
                                                                  – Deane Yang
                                                                  Jun 29 at 14:12





                                                                  $begingroup$
                                                                  For example, in microlocal analysis sufficient regularity of functions is often needed so that their Fourier transforms decay fast enough, which, in turn, is needed in order that certain integrals converge. Although the theory of distributions is always presented in the smooth category, I believe it's not necessary. As far as I know, derivatives of arbitrarily high order are never really needed in any application of distribution theory. Do you know an example of where they are?
                                                                  $endgroup$
                                                                  – Deane Yang
                                                                  Jun 29 at 14:12





                                                                  1




                                                                  1




                                                                  $begingroup$
                                                                  @Deane Yang: maybe Ruelle resonances? Given a hyperbolic map $T$, the eigenvalues of the composition operator $f mapsto f circ T$ are not functions, but distributions; and in general, there are such eigendistributions of arbitrarily high order (so which have to be integrated against arbitrarily smooth functions).
                                                                  $endgroup$
                                                                  – D. Thomine
                                                                  Jun 30 at 19:53





                                                                  $begingroup$
                                                                  @Deane Yang: maybe Ruelle resonances? Given a hyperbolic map $T$, the eigenvalues of the composition operator $f mapsto f circ T$ are not functions, but distributions; and in general, there are such eigendistributions of arbitrarily high order (so which have to be integrated against arbitrarily smooth functions).
                                                                  $endgroup$
                                                                  – D. Thomine
                                                                  Jun 30 at 19:53












                                                                  4












                                                                  $begingroup$

                                                                  I think third-order and fourth-order derivatives in particular are very common in both pure and applied mathematics, for example, I once worked with some equations modelling local film thickness of moving liquid films which contained third-order derivatives.



                                                                  $delta q_t = frac56h - frac52fracqh^2 + delta Bigg( frac97fracq^2h^2h_x - frac177fracqhq_x Bigg) +
                                                                  frac56hh_xxx + eta Bigg[ 4fracqh^2(h_x)^2 - frac92hq_xh_x - 6 fracqhh_xx + frac92q_xx Bigg].$






                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                  $endgroup$

















                                                                    4












                                                                    $begingroup$

                                                                    I think third-order and fourth-order derivatives in particular are very common in both pure and applied mathematics, for example, I once worked with some equations modelling local film thickness of moving liquid films which contained third-order derivatives.



                                                                    $delta q_t = frac56h - frac52fracqh^2 + delta Bigg( frac97fracq^2h^2h_x - frac177fracqhq_x Bigg) +
                                                                    frac56hh_xxx + eta Bigg[ 4fracqh^2(h_x)^2 - frac92hq_xh_x - 6 fracqhh_xx + frac92q_xx Bigg].$






                                                                    share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                    $endgroup$















                                                                      4












                                                                      4








                                                                      4





                                                                      $begingroup$

                                                                      I think third-order and fourth-order derivatives in particular are very common in both pure and applied mathematics, for example, I once worked with some equations modelling local film thickness of moving liquid films which contained third-order derivatives.



                                                                      $delta q_t = frac56h - frac52fracqh^2 + delta Bigg( frac97fracq^2h^2h_x - frac177fracqhq_x Bigg) +
                                                                      frac56hh_xxx + eta Bigg[ 4fracqh^2(h_x)^2 - frac92hq_xh_x - 6 fracqhh_xx + frac92q_xx Bigg].$






                                                                      share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                      $endgroup$



                                                                      I think third-order and fourth-order derivatives in particular are very common in both pure and applied mathematics, for example, I once worked with some equations modelling local film thickness of moving liquid films which contained third-order derivatives.



                                                                      $delta q_t = frac56h - frac52fracqh^2 + delta Bigg( frac97fracq^2h^2h_x - frac177fracqhq_x Bigg) +
                                                                      frac56hh_xxx + eta Bigg[ 4fracqh^2(h_x)^2 - frac92hq_xh_x - 6 fracqhh_xx + frac92q_xx Bigg].$







                                                                      share|cite|improve this answer














                                                                      share|cite|improve this answer



                                                                      share|cite|improve this answer








                                                                      answered Jun 30 at 20:25


























                                                                      community wiki





                                                                      Tom






















                                                                          3












                                                                          $begingroup$

                                                                          I agree with Dirk's answer that there exist also applications for arbitrarily high order derivatives. Another example is the infinite order Kosterlitz–Thouless phase transition






                                                                          share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                          $endgroup$








                                                                          • 4




                                                                            $begingroup$
                                                                            Could you give a sketch of why an infinite number of derivatives are needed?
                                                                            $endgroup$
                                                                            – Deane Yang
                                                                            Jun 29 at 14:28















                                                                          3












                                                                          $begingroup$

                                                                          I agree with Dirk's answer that there exist also applications for arbitrarily high order derivatives. Another example is the infinite order Kosterlitz–Thouless phase transition






                                                                          share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                          $endgroup$








                                                                          • 4




                                                                            $begingroup$
                                                                            Could you give a sketch of why an infinite number of derivatives are needed?
                                                                            $endgroup$
                                                                            – Deane Yang
                                                                            Jun 29 at 14:28













                                                                          3












                                                                          3








                                                                          3





                                                                          $begingroup$

                                                                          I agree with Dirk's answer that there exist also applications for arbitrarily high order derivatives. Another example is the infinite order Kosterlitz–Thouless phase transition






                                                                          share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                          $endgroup$



                                                                          I agree with Dirk's answer that there exist also applications for arbitrarily high order derivatives. Another example is the infinite order Kosterlitz–Thouless phase transition







                                                                          share|cite|improve this answer














                                                                          share|cite|improve this answer



                                                                          share|cite|improve this answer








                                                                          answered Jun 29 at 13:35


























                                                                          community wiki





                                                                          Count Iblis








                                                                          • 4




                                                                            $begingroup$
                                                                            Could you give a sketch of why an infinite number of derivatives are needed?
                                                                            $endgroup$
                                                                            – Deane Yang
                                                                            Jun 29 at 14:28












                                                                          • 4




                                                                            $begingroup$
                                                                            Could you give a sketch of why an infinite number of derivatives are needed?
                                                                            $endgroup$
                                                                            – Deane Yang
                                                                            Jun 29 at 14:28







                                                                          4




                                                                          4




                                                                          $begingroup$
                                                                          Could you give a sketch of why an infinite number of derivatives are needed?
                                                                          $endgroup$
                                                                          – Deane Yang
                                                                          Jun 29 at 14:28




                                                                          $begingroup$
                                                                          Could you give a sketch of why an infinite number of derivatives are needed?
                                                                          $endgroup$
                                                                          – Deane Yang
                                                                          Jun 29 at 14:28











                                                                          3












                                                                          $begingroup$

                                                                          I was once president of a PhD defense in chemistry (this is standard in our faculty; the president should not belong to the same department as the student). Most of his thesis involved simulations of behaviours of the seventh derivatives of something. It was claimed that this was testing for chaotic chemical reactions (certainly periodic reactions exist). The student however, was mathematically quite weak, so I don't really know how effective his results were.






                                                                          share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                          $endgroup$

















                                                                            3












                                                                            $begingroup$

                                                                            I was once president of a PhD defense in chemistry (this is standard in our faculty; the president should not belong to the same department as the student). Most of his thesis involved simulations of behaviours of the seventh derivatives of something. It was claimed that this was testing for chaotic chemical reactions (certainly periodic reactions exist). The student however, was mathematically quite weak, so I don't really know how effective his results were.






                                                                            share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                            $endgroup$















                                                                              3












                                                                              3








                                                                              3





                                                                              $begingroup$

                                                                              I was once president of a PhD defense in chemistry (this is standard in our faculty; the president should not belong to the same department as the student). Most of his thesis involved simulations of behaviours of the seventh derivatives of something. It was claimed that this was testing for chaotic chemical reactions (certainly periodic reactions exist). The student however, was mathematically quite weak, so I don't really know how effective his results were.






                                                                              share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                              $endgroup$



                                                                              I was once president of a PhD defense in chemistry (this is standard in our faculty; the president should not belong to the same department as the student). Most of his thesis involved simulations of behaviours of the seventh derivatives of something. It was claimed that this was testing for chaotic chemical reactions (certainly periodic reactions exist). The student however, was mathematically quite weak, so I don't really know how effective his results were.







                                                                              share|cite|improve this answer














                                                                              share|cite|improve this answer



                                                                              share|cite|improve this answer








                                                                              answered Jun 29 at 16:58


























                                                                              community wiki





                                                                              David Handelman






















                                                                                  2












                                                                                  $begingroup$

                                                                                  Analytic regularity of a $C^infty$ function can be characterized by using an infinite number of derivatives. A function $fin C^infty(Omega)$ where $Omega$ is an open subset of $mathbb R^n$ is real-analytic on $Omega$ iff for all $K$ compact subsets of $Omega$, there exist positive constants $C_K, rho_K$, such that
                                                                                  $$
                                                                                  beginarrayccc
                                                                                  forall alpha=(alpha_1, dots, alpha_n) in mathbb N^n ,,
                                                                                  & ~~ &
                                                                                  suplimits_xin Kleft|(partial_x^alpha f)(x)right| le C_K rho_K^-vert alphavert alpha ! ,,
                                                                                  \[10px]
                                                                                  vert alphavert=sum alpha_j ,,
                                                                                  & &
                                                                                  alpha!=prod alpha_j! ,.
                                                                                  endarray
                                                                                  $$






                                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                                  $endgroup$








                                                                                  • 6




                                                                                    $begingroup$
                                                                                    More generally, any theorem in the real analytic category necessarily involves derivatives of all orders.
                                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                                    – Deane Yang
                                                                                    Jun 29 at 18:54















                                                                                  2












                                                                                  $begingroup$

                                                                                  Analytic regularity of a $C^infty$ function can be characterized by using an infinite number of derivatives. A function $fin C^infty(Omega)$ where $Omega$ is an open subset of $mathbb R^n$ is real-analytic on $Omega$ iff for all $K$ compact subsets of $Omega$, there exist positive constants $C_K, rho_K$, such that
                                                                                  $$
                                                                                  beginarrayccc
                                                                                  forall alpha=(alpha_1, dots, alpha_n) in mathbb N^n ,,
                                                                                  & ~~ &
                                                                                  suplimits_xin Kleft|(partial_x^alpha f)(x)right| le C_K rho_K^-vert alphavert alpha ! ,,
                                                                                  \[10px]
                                                                                  vert alphavert=sum alpha_j ,,
                                                                                  & &
                                                                                  alpha!=prod alpha_j! ,.
                                                                                  endarray
                                                                                  $$






                                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                                  $endgroup$








                                                                                  • 6




                                                                                    $begingroup$
                                                                                    More generally, any theorem in the real analytic category necessarily involves derivatives of all orders.
                                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                                    – Deane Yang
                                                                                    Jun 29 at 18:54













                                                                                  2












                                                                                  2








                                                                                  2





                                                                                  $begingroup$

                                                                                  Analytic regularity of a $C^infty$ function can be characterized by using an infinite number of derivatives. A function $fin C^infty(Omega)$ where $Omega$ is an open subset of $mathbb R^n$ is real-analytic on $Omega$ iff for all $K$ compact subsets of $Omega$, there exist positive constants $C_K, rho_K$, such that
                                                                                  $$
                                                                                  beginarrayccc
                                                                                  forall alpha=(alpha_1, dots, alpha_n) in mathbb N^n ,,
                                                                                  & ~~ &
                                                                                  suplimits_xin Kleft|(partial_x^alpha f)(x)right| le C_K rho_K^-vert alphavert alpha ! ,,
                                                                                  \[10px]
                                                                                  vert alphavert=sum alpha_j ,,
                                                                                  & &
                                                                                  alpha!=prod alpha_j! ,.
                                                                                  endarray
                                                                                  $$






                                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                                  $endgroup$



                                                                                  Analytic regularity of a $C^infty$ function can be characterized by using an infinite number of derivatives. A function $fin C^infty(Omega)$ where $Omega$ is an open subset of $mathbb R^n$ is real-analytic on $Omega$ iff for all $K$ compact subsets of $Omega$, there exist positive constants $C_K, rho_K$, such that
                                                                                  $$
                                                                                  beginarrayccc
                                                                                  forall alpha=(alpha_1, dots, alpha_n) in mathbb N^n ,,
                                                                                  & ~~ &
                                                                                  suplimits_xin Kleft|(partial_x^alpha f)(x)right| le C_K rho_K^-vert alphavert alpha ! ,,
                                                                                  \[10px]
                                                                                  vert alphavert=sum alpha_j ,,
                                                                                  & &
                                                                                  alpha!=prod alpha_j! ,.
                                                                                  endarray
                                                                                  $$







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                                                                                  edited Jul 2 at 7:52


























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                                                                                  2 revs, 2 users 65%
                                                                                  Nat








                                                                                  • 6




                                                                                    $begingroup$
                                                                                    More generally, any theorem in the real analytic category necessarily involves derivatives of all orders.
                                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                                    – Deane Yang
                                                                                    Jun 29 at 18:54












                                                                                  • 6




                                                                                    $begingroup$
                                                                                    More generally, any theorem in the real analytic category necessarily involves derivatives of all orders.
                                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                                    – Deane Yang
                                                                                    Jun 29 at 18:54







                                                                                  6




                                                                                  6




                                                                                  $begingroup$
                                                                                  More generally, any theorem in the real analytic category necessarily involves derivatives of all orders.
                                                                                  $endgroup$
                                                                                  – Deane Yang
                                                                                  Jun 29 at 18:54




                                                                                  $begingroup$
                                                                                  More generally, any theorem in the real analytic category necessarily involves derivatives of all orders.
                                                                                  $endgroup$
                                                                                  – Deane Yang
                                                                                  Jun 29 at 18:54











                                                                                  1












                                                                                  $begingroup$

                                                                                  To perhaps state the obvious, there are many places in theory (and, I'm told, practice) where analytic continuations are used. For instance, the Riemann zeta function was discovered as the analytic continuation of Euler's product formula.



                                                                                  Of course you can't make any sense of this without all the derivatives of a function.






                                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                                  $endgroup$












                                                                                  • $begingroup$
                                                                                    I think what OP is after is situations where you need, say, the 4th derivative, but you don't need the 5th or 6th or any other high-order derivative.
                                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                                    – Gerry Myerson
                                                                                    Jul 2 at 22:50















                                                                                  1












                                                                                  $begingroup$

                                                                                  To perhaps state the obvious, there are many places in theory (and, I'm told, practice) where analytic continuations are used. For instance, the Riemann zeta function was discovered as the analytic continuation of Euler's product formula.



                                                                                  Of course you can't make any sense of this without all the derivatives of a function.






                                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                                  $endgroup$












                                                                                  • $begingroup$
                                                                                    I think what OP is after is situations where you need, say, the 4th derivative, but you don't need the 5th or 6th or any other high-order derivative.
                                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                                    – Gerry Myerson
                                                                                    Jul 2 at 22:50













                                                                                  1












                                                                                  1








                                                                                  1





                                                                                  $begingroup$

                                                                                  To perhaps state the obvious, there are many places in theory (and, I'm told, practice) where analytic continuations are used. For instance, the Riemann zeta function was discovered as the analytic continuation of Euler's product formula.



                                                                                  Of course you can't make any sense of this without all the derivatives of a function.






                                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                                                                  $endgroup$



                                                                                  To perhaps state the obvious, there are many places in theory (and, I'm told, practice) where analytic continuations are used. For instance, the Riemann zeta function was discovered as the analytic continuation of Euler's product formula.



                                                                                  Of course you can't make any sense of this without all the derivatives of a function.







                                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer














                                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer



                                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer








                                                                                  answered Jul 2 at 12:39


























                                                                                  community wiki





                                                                                  Daniel McLaury












                                                                                  • $begingroup$
                                                                                    I think what OP is after is situations where you need, say, the 4th derivative, but you don't need the 5th or 6th or any other high-order derivative.
                                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                                    – Gerry Myerson
                                                                                    Jul 2 at 22:50
















                                                                                  • $begingroup$
                                                                                    I think what OP is after is situations where you need, say, the 4th derivative, but you don't need the 5th or 6th or any other high-order derivative.
                                                                                    $endgroup$
                                                                                    – Gerry Myerson
                                                                                    Jul 2 at 22:50















                                                                                  $begingroup$
                                                                                  I think what OP is after is situations where you need, say, the 4th derivative, but you don't need the 5th or 6th or any other high-order derivative.
                                                                                  $endgroup$
                                                                                  – Gerry Myerson
                                                                                  Jul 2 at 22:50




                                                                                  $begingroup$
                                                                                  I think what OP is after is situations where you need, say, the 4th derivative, but you don't need the 5th or 6th or any other high-order derivative.
                                                                                  $endgroup$
                                                                                  – Gerry Myerson
                                                                                  Jul 2 at 22:50

















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