Why is the saxophone not common in classical repertoire?How did the saxophone come to be considered romantic?The 25 Daily Exercises versus learning songs for beginner saxophoneWhich tone names should I learn on a transposing instrument like a saxophone?How to do vibrato on the saxophone?Why saxophone is so common in Jazz Music?Playing the saxophone in the rainHow do I practice overtones on the saxophone?What are the 14 different types of saxophone?What's the Standard pitch for a Saxophone and its frequency?Why does it sound so different between a 'C' and a 'D' on an Alto Saxophone?
Swapping "Good" and "Bad"
Publishing papers seem natural to many, while I find it really hard to think novel stuff to pursue till publication. How to cope up with this?
Do injective, yet not bijective, functions have an inverse?
What would +1/+2/+3 items be called in game?
How was the Shuttle loaded and unloaded from its carrier aircraft?
How should I ask for a "pint" in countries that use metric?
Why did Old English lose both thorn and eth?
Is there a strong legal guarantee that the U.S. can give to another country that it won't attack them?
What are the effects of abstaining from eating a certain flavor?
What's it called when the bad guy gets eaten?
What was the profession 芸者 (female entertainer) called in Russia?
Password Hashing Security Using Scrypt & Argon2
How do I separate enchants from items?
No Torah = Revert to Nothingness?
What does the multimeter dial do internally?
Was it ever illegal to name a pig "Napoleon" in France?
Found and corrected a mistake on someone's else paper -- praxis?
US citizen traveling with Peruvian passport
Need a non-volatile memory IC with near unlimited read/write operations capability
Are there red cards that offer protection against mass token destruction?
When I press the space bar it deletes the letters in front of it
Performance issue in code for reading line and testing for palindrome
Reference request: quantifier elimination test
Why different specifications for telescopes and binoculars?
Why is the saxophone not common in classical repertoire?
How did the saxophone come to be considered romantic?The 25 Daily Exercises versus learning songs for beginner saxophoneWhich tone names should I learn on a transposing instrument like a saxophone?How to do vibrato on the saxophone?Why saxophone is so common in Jazz Music?Playing the saxophone in the rainHow do I practice overtones on the saxophone?What are the 14 different types of saxophone?What's the Standard pitch for a Saxophone and its frequency?Why does it sound so different between a 'C' and a 'D' on an Alto Saxophone?
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
Other than the fact that its relatively new compared to other orchestral instruments (e.g. the violin), why is the saxophone (any of them from the family, alto, baritone, tenor etc) not more prevalent in classical repertoire? Are there historical reasons? Is the timbre incompatible (and if so why?). I would prefer objective reasons for the latter if its true (and not subjective statements like "it just does not sound orchestral").
orchestra saxophone
|
show 5 more comments
Other than the fact that its relatively new compared to other orchestral instruments (e.g. the violin), why is the saxophone (any of them from the family, alto, baritone, tenor etc) not more prevalent in classical repertoire? Are there historical reasons? Is the timbre incompatible (and if so why?). I would prefer objective reasons for the latter if its true (and not subjective statements like "it just does not sound orchestral").
orchestra saxophone
8
Composers who included the saxophone in orchestral works include Debussy, Glazunov, Bizet, Delibes, Massenet, Strauss, Bartok, Ravel, Milhaud, Puccini, Hindemith, Berg, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Rachmaninov... it's hardly a rarity.
– Your Uncle Bob
Jun 30 at 7:54
6
Whats the fraction of orchestral pieces (including chamber orchestras) post the date of the invention of saxophone to the total number of orchestral pieces that were composed during that time? Now run the exact same analysis with the clarinet. Moreover, whats the number of orchestras that have musicians whose primary instrument is some kind of a saxophone ? I honestly do not know the answer to either question.
– Khalian
Jun 30 at 7:59
5
The clarinet is 150 years older, and more crucially, it was around when the symphony form developed in the 18th century, and when Beethoven defined what would long be considered the standard orchestra instrumentation in the first half of the 19th century.
– Your Uncle Bob
Jun 30 at 8:07
2
So your answer is that its purely historical by nature? I wont be surprised if it actually is.
– Khalian
Jun 30 at 8:14
3
Consider the flügelhorn and the cornet, developed around the same time as the saxophone. They are also occasionally used in orchestral works, but for specific effects, and are not a standard part of orchestral instrumentation.
– Your Uncle Bob
Jun 30 at 8:19
|
show 5 more comments
Other than the fact that its relatively new compared to other orchestral instruments (e.g. the violin), why is the saxophone (any of them from the family, alto, baritone, tenor etc) not more prevalent in classical repertoire? Are there historical reasons? Is the timbre incompatible (and if so why?). I would prefer objective reasons for the latter if its true (and not subjective statements like "it just does not sound orchestral").
orchestra saxophone
Other than the fact that its relatively new compared to other orchestral instruments (e.g. the violin), why is the saxophone (any of them from the family, alto, baritone, tenor etc) not more prevalent in classical repertoire? Are there historical reasons? Is the timbre incompatible (and if so why?). I would prefer objective reasons for the latter if its true (and not subjective statements like "it just does not sound orchestral").
orchestra saxophone
orchestra saxophone
asked Jun 30 at 7:34
KhalianKhalian
2923 silver badges9 bronze badges
2923 silver badges9 bronze badges
8
Composers who included the saxophone in orchestral works include Debussy, Glazunov, Bizet, Delibes, Massenet, Strauss, Bartok, Ravel, Milhaud, Puccini, Hindemith, Berg, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Rachmaninov... it's hardly a rarity.
– Your Uncle Bob
Jun 30 at 7:54
6
Whats the fraction of orchestral pieces (including chamber orchestras) post the date of the invention of saxophone to the total number of orchestral pieces that were composed during that time? Now run the exact same analysis with the clarinet. Moreover, whats the number of orchestras that have musicians whose primary instrument is some kind of a saxophone ? I honestly do not know the answer to either question.
– Khalian
Jun 30 at 7:59
5
The clarinet is 150 years older, and more crucially, it was around when the symphony form developed in the 18th century, and when Beethoven defined what would long be considered the standard orchestra instrumentation in the first half of the 19th century.
– Your Uncle Bob
Jun 30 at 8:07
2
So your answer is that its purely historical by nature? I wont be surprised if it actually is.
– Khalian
Jun 30 at 8:14
3
Consider the flügelhorn and the cornet, developed around the same time as the saxophone. They are also occasionally used in orchestral works, but for specific effects, and are not a standard part of orchestral instrumentation.
– Your Uncle Bob
Jun 30 at 8:19
|
show 5 more comments
8
Composers who included the saxophone in orchestral works include Debussy, Glazunov, Bizet, Delibes, Massenet, Strauss, Bartok, Ravel, Milhaud, Puccini, Hindemith, Berg, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Rachmaninov... it's hardly a rarity.
– Your Uncle Bob
Jun 30 at 7:54
6
Whats the fraction of orchestral pieces (including chamber orchestras) post the date of the invention of saxophone to the total number of orchestral pieces that were composed during that time? Now run the exact same analysis with the clarinet. Moreover, whats the number of orchestras that have musicians whose primary instrument is some kind of a saxophone ? I honestly do not know the answer to either question.
– Khalian
Jun 30 at 7:59
5
The clarinet is 150 years older, and more crucially, it was around when the symphony form developed in the 18th century, and when Beethoven defined what would long be considered the standard orchestra instrumentation in the first half of the 19th century.
– Your Uncle Bob
Jun 30 at 8:07
2
So your answer is that its purely historical by nature? I wont be surprised if it actually is.
– Khalian
Jun 30 at 8:14
3
Consider the flügelhorn and the cornet, developed around the same time as the saxophone. They are also occasionally used in orchestral works, but for specific effects, and are not a standard part of orchestral instrumentation.
– Your Uncle Bob
Jun 30 at 8:19
8
8
Composers who included the saxophone in orchestral works include Debussy, Glazunov, Bizet, Delibes, Massenet, Strauss, Bartok, Ravel, Milhaud, Puccini, Hindemith, Berg, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Rachmaninov... it's hardly a rarity.
– Your Uncle Bob
Jun 30 at 7:54
Composers who included the saxophone in orchestral works include Debussy, Glazunov, Bizet, Delibes, Massenet, Strauss, Bartok, Ravel, Milhaud, Puccini, Hindemith, Berg, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Rachmaninov... it's hardly a rarity.
– Your Uncle Bob
Jun 30 at 7:54
6
6
Whats the fraction of orchestral pieces (including chamber orchestras) post the date of the invention of saxophone to the total number of orchestral pieces that were composed during that time? Now run the exact same analysis with the clarinet. Moreover, whats the number of orchestras that have musicians whose primary instrument is some kind of a saxophone ? I honestly do not know the answer to either question.
– Khalian
Jun 30 at 7:59
Whats the fraction of orchestral pieces (including chamber orchestras) post the date of the invention of saxophone to the total number of orchestral pieces that were composed during that time? Now run the exact same analysis with the clarinet. Moreover, whats the number of orchestras that have musicians whose primary instrument is some kind of a saxophone ? I honestly do not know the answer to either question.
– Khalian
Jun 30 at 7:59
5
5
The clarinet is 150 years older, and more crucially, it was around when the symphony form developed in the 18th century, and when Beethoven defined what would long be considered the standard orchestra instrumentation in the first half of the 19th century.
– Your Uncle Bob
Jun 30 at 8:07
The clarinet is 150 years older, and more crucially, it was around when the symphony form developed in the 18th century, and when Beethoven defined what would long be considered the standard orchestra instrumentation in the first half of the 19th century.
– Your Uncle Bob
Jun 30 at 8:07
2
2
So your answer is that its purely historical by nature? I wont be surprised if it actually is.
– Khalian
Jun 30 at 8:14
So your answer is that its purely historical by nature? I wont be surprised if it actually is.
– Khalian
Jun 30 at 8:14
3
3
Consider the flügelhorn and the cornet, developed around the same time as the saxophone. They are also occasionally used in orchestral works, but for specific effects, and are not a standard part of orchestral instrumentation.
– Your Uncle Bob
Jun 30 at 8:19
Consider the flügelhorn and the cornet, developed around the same time as the saxophone. They are also occasionally used in orchestral works, but for specific effects, and are not a standard part of orchestral instrumentation.
– Your Uncle Bob
Jun 30 at 8:19
|
show 5 more comments
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
This question has been asked many times and various reason have been proposed:
The saxophone is too loud or doesn't blend
There are numerous recordings proving that the saxophone in the hands of a good player can play extremely quietly and blend anywhere.
There was a cartel of French instrument makers who wanted to protect their market and hindered the introduction of the saxophone.
This might have been true in France during Adolphe Sax's lifetime, but it doesn't explain why the saxophone didn't make its way into the orchestra later, or in other countries. Plus this boycott didn't stop the instrument finding its way into wind orchestras.
The saxophone had a reputation as a 'comedy' instrument.
This reputation didn't develop until the early 20th century in North America with ensembles like the "Six Brown Brothers".
I think the main reason is much more simple. The saxophone was fifty years too late. The symphony orchestra in its present form was complete by 1800. The fact that this combination still exists today, almost unchanged, shows how perfect it had become. There was no musical or acoustical reason to introduce a new instrument.
5
I agree. Specifically, the symphony orchestra seems to have been “frozen in” at its current instrument makeup sometime during the romantic period. It might be an interesting question why.
– leftaroundabout
Jun 30 at 16:54
5
Where are the quoted parts from?
– JiK
Jul 1 at 6:48
1
@leftaroundabout The "why" is simple: large quantities of music were written with this instrumentation, so many orchestras formed with this instrumentation, so more music was written with this instrumentation, so more orchestras formed, etc. It's an endless self-reinforcing feedback loop.
– Darrel Hoffman
Jul 2 at 13:31
@DarrelHoffman that doesn't explain why the orchestra kept developing from the renaissance to the romantic, then stopped.
– leftaroundabout
Jul 2 at 13:32
add a comment |
This r/classical comment by u/trambolino links to a 68-page thesis that answers your question.
Short version: 1. Most seminal symphonies were written before the invention of the saxophone. 2. When it was introduced, there weren't many skilled players. 3. The inventor Adolphe Sax manufactured all the parts of the saxophone himself, so part-makers and instrument makers rallied against his product (telling musicians to walk out of the orchestra if a saxophone would be included). 4. For the reasons mentioned above, there isn't much saxophone music from the past to inspire modern composers to include a saxophone in their symphonies.
Long version: THE MISSING SAXOPHONE:
Why the Saxophone Is Not a Permanent Member of the Orchestra
by
Mathew C. Ferraro. [Submitted to
The Dana School of Music
in Partial Fulfillment of the Requirements
for the Degree of
Master of Music
in
History and Literature.
YOUNGSTOWN STATE UNIVERSITY
May 2012]
I'll quote Ferraro's conclusion on p 54
From its earliest days, the saxophone was well received by the musical
community. Approving reviews from outstanding composers and musicians who
supported Adolphe Sax quickly followed his introduction of the saxophone. Many
believed the saxophone had all the qualities to enhance the orchestra’s sound and thus
predicted its success and rapid implementation in the orchestra. Some composers wrote
parts for the saxophone in an attempt to implement the instrument in the orchestra. and
many stated they believed the saxophone had many qualities that could enhance and
expand the orchestra’s sound. Composers predicted its success and rapid implementation
in the orchestra.
Sax’s initial intent was to create a bass instrument that was an alternative to the
bassoon and ophicleide, neither of which Sax was particularly fond. A gifted and selfassured
instrument maker, Sax eventually produced an entire family of saxophones that
many felt could bridge the gap in timbre between the brass and string sections of the
orchestra. Hector Berlioz, especially, hailed the superiority of Sax’s designs and felt the
instrument would make a fine addition to the orchestra. Other prominent composers of
the time, including Rossini and Meyerbeer, were also proponents of the newly invented
saxophone. All facts considered, it becomes clear that there were other mitigating
circumstances that negatively influenced the perception of the saxophone.
Because of his many achievements and fierce defense of his skills, Sax created an
immediate rivalry with the established instrument manufacturers in Paris. His competitors
purposely sabotaged the introduction of the saxophone and its use in the orchestra.
Feeling threatened by Sax and the growing popularity of his instruments, his rivals
and p 55.
formed a unified front against him and were able to influence musicians and composers
to reject the instrument.
The saxophone’s omission from the orchestra was also due to the lack of
professionally trained players. Although Adolphe Sax himself was appointed as instructor
of saxophone at the Paris Conservatory in the 1860s, he was dismissed after only a few
years and lessons were not offered again until 1942. Consequently the saxophone, on the
limited occasions it was required, was played or doubled by musicians who considered it
a secondary instrument. This lack of competent teachers and players resulted in
unsatisfactory performances that gave composers an inaccurate representation of the
possible applications of the saxophone.
The saxophone continued to be overlooked through the remainder of the
nineteenth century, well after Sax’s patents had run out and his rivals had accomplished
their objective. The orchestra continued to include new and improved instruments with
the exception of the saxophone, which was making its way into other genres. It was
rapidly assimilated into military bands and by the turn of the century could be found in
vaudeville acts and other similar genres as a novelty instrument. All of these factors
combined suggest why the saxophone never became part of the orchestra. Whether these
factors were intentional, as was the case during the instrument’s introduction, or
consequential due to its popularity in mainstream music, it has left the saxophone with a
limited repertoire that begins nearly ninety years after its invention.
2
Three of those four arguments (1, 2 & 4) could equally well apply to the tuba which did make it into the orchestra late, because there was a very real need for a brass instrument in that range and the tuba was superior to the other candidates (serpent, ophicleide). Unfortunately there was no need for another woodwind instrument.
– PiedPiper
Jul 1 at 7:48
Argument 3 doesn't explain why the saxophone was not (or very rarely) used later, for example by American composers after 1900.
– PiedPiper
Jul 1 at 7:52
In contrast, at least 3 types of saxophone are staples in concert band music (alto, tenor, and baritone). Clearly, there are large music ensembles very willing to use saxophones.
– Dekkadeci
Jul 1 at 13:40
add a comment |
I think the reasons are economic rather than musical.
I don't really buy the argument that it was "invented too late", because it's just 11 years younger than the tuba (1846 vs 1835). And composers did start using it pretty early on - there are pieces by Bizet, Delibes, and others who included the sax.
But composers didn't really start considering the sax a serious instrument until the 1930s, when Sigurd Rascher started performing Borck's concerto (which was written for him). Then you start seeing it used by Shostakovich, Rachmaninoff, Bernstein, Prokofiev, Britten, Vaughan Williams, etc.
So there's a pretty decent repertoire out there today. But having spent 5 years on an orchestra's board, I can tell you that two things factor heavily into programming: ticket sales and royalty expenses. Pieces written after 1924 are likely to be more expensive to perform, and lesser known composers are far less likely to fill the seats. Major orchestras have to keep their budgets under control, and smaller ensembles simply don't have the money to perform much of the available music.
11
The tuba, in addition to its own merits, served as a drop-in replacement for the serpent and ophicleide, which were not completely satisfactory as the contrabass of a Romantic orchestra's brass section. Effectively, the tuba had an established role and repertoire from day one. The saxophone did not.
– Thom Smith
Jun 30 at 16:24
1
The 1924 mention is probably a reference to the current USA public domain limits.
– Dekkadeci
Jul 1 at 13:42
add a comment |
You beat me to it! In a nutshell Adolphe Sax had a battle in Paris between his invention, the saxophone, and French instrument makers who wanted to protect their market for other comparable instruments. That and his brusque personlaity saw the saxophone sidelined for policial reasons rather thna its virtues.
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "240"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f86377%2fwhy-is-the-saxophone-not-common-in-classical-repertoire%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
This question has been asked many times and various reason have been proposed:
The saxophone is too loud or doesn't blend
There are numerous recordings proving that the saxophone in the hands of a good player can play extremely quietly and blend anywhere.
There was a cartel of French instrument makers who wanted to protect their market and hindered the introduction of the saxophone.
This might have been true in France during Adolphe Sax's lifetime, but it doesn't explain why the saxophone didn't make its way into the orchestra later, or in other countries. Plus this boycott didn't stop the instrument finding its way into wind orchestras.
The saxophone had a reputation as a 'comedy' instrument.
This reputation didn't develop until the early 20th century in North America with ensembles like the "Six Brown Brothers".
I think the main reason is much more simple. The saxophone was fifty years too late. The symphony orchestra in its present form was complete by 1800. The fact that this combination still exists today, almost unchanged, shows how perfect it had become. There was no musical or acoustical reason to introduce a new instrument.
5
I agree. Specifically, the symphony orchestra seems to have been “frozen in” at its current instrument makeup sometime during the romantic period. It might be an interesting question why.
– leftaroundabout
Jun 30 at 16:54
5
Where are the quoted parts from?
– JiK
Jul 1 at 6:48
1
@leftaroundabout The "why" is simple: large quantities of music were written with this instrumentation, so many orchestras formed with this instrumentation, so more music was written with this instrumentation, so more orchestras formed, etc. It's an endless self-reinforcing feedback loop.
– Darrel Hoffman
Jul 2 at 13:31
@DarrelHoffman that doesn't explain why the orchestra kept developing from the renaissance to the romantic, then stopped.
– leftaroundabout
Jul 2 at 13:32
add a comment |
This question has been asked many times and various reason have been proposed:
The saxophone is too loud or doesn't blend
There are numerous recordings proving that the saxophone in the hands of a good player can play extremely quietly and blend anywhere.
There was a cartel of French instrument makers who wanted to protect their market and hindered the introduction of the saxophone.
This might have been true in France during Adolphe Sax's lifetime, but it doesn't explain why the saxophone didn't make its way into the orchestra later, or in other countries. Plus this boycott didn't stop the instrument finding its way into wind orchestras.
The saxophone had a reputation as a 'comedy' instrument.
This reputation didn't develop until the early 20th century in North America with ensembles like the "Six Brown Brothers".
I think the main reason is much more simple. The saxophone was fifty years too late. The symphony orchestra in its present form was complete by 1800. The fact that this combination still exists today, almost unchanged, shows how perfect it had become. There was no musical or acoustical reason to introduce a new instrument.
5
I agree. Specifically, the symphony orchestra seems to have been “frozen in” at its current instrument makeup sometime during the romantic period. It might be an interesting question why.
– leftaroundabout
Jun 30 at 16:54
5
Where are the quoted parts from?
– JiK
Jul 1 at 6:48
1
@leftaroundabout The "why" is simple: large quantities of music were written with this instrumentation, so many orchestras formed with this instrumentation, so more music was written with this instrumentation, so more orchestras formed, etc. It's an endless self-reinforcing feedback loop.
– Darrel Hoffman
Jul 2 at 13:31
@DarrelHoffman that doesn't explain why the orchestra kept developing from the renaissance to the romantic, then stopped.
– leftaroundabout
Jul 2 at 13:32
add a comment |
This question has been asked many times and various reason have been proposed:
The saxophone is too loud or doesn't blend
There are numerous recordings proving that the saxophone in the hands of a good player can play extremely quietly and blend anywhere.
There was a cartel of French instrument makers who wanted to protect their market and hindered the introduction of the saxophone.
This might have been true in France during Adolphe Sax's lifetime, but it doesn't explain why the saxophone didn't make its way into the orchestra later, or in other countries. Plus this boycott didn't stop the instrument finding its way into wind orchestras.
The saxophone had a reputation as a 'comedy' instrument.
This reputation didn't develop until the early 20th century in North America with ensembles like the "Six Brown Brothers".
I think the main reason is much more simple. The saxophone was fifty years too late. The symphony orchestra in its present form was complete by 1800. The fact that this combination still exists today, almost unchanged, shows how perfect it had become. There was no musical or acoustical reason to introduce a new instrument.
This question has been asked many times and various reason have been proposed:
The saxophone is too loud or doesn't blend
There are numerous recordings proving that the saxophone in the hands of a good player can play extremely quietly and blend anywhere.
There was a cartel of French instrument makers who wanted to protect their market and hindered the introduction of the saxophone.
This might have been true in France during Adolphe Sax's lifetime, but it doesn't explain why the saxophone didn't make its way into the orchestra later, or in other countries. Plus this boycott didn't stop the instrument finding its way into wind orchestras.
The saxophone had a reputation as a 'comedy' instrument.
This reputation didn't develop until the early 20th century in North America with ensembles like the "Six Brown Brothers".
I think the main reason is much more simple. The saxophone was fifty years too late. The symphony orchestra in its present form was complete by 1800. The fact that this combination still exists today, almost unchanged, shows how perfect it had become. There was no musical or acoustical reason to introduce a new instrument.
edited Jul 2 at 7:10
Len
183 bronze badges
183 bronze badges
answered Jun 30 at 14:22
PiedPiperPiedPiper
1,2454 silver badges17 bronze badges
1,2454 silver badges17 bronze badges
5
I agree. Specifically, the symphony orchestra seems to have been “frozen in” at its current instrument makeup sometime during the romantic period. It might be an interesting question why.
– leftaroundabout
Jun 30 at 16:54
5
Where are the quoted parts from?
– JiK
Jul 1 at 6:48
1
@leftaroundabout The "why" is simple: large quantities of music were written with this instrumentation, so many orchestras formed with this instrumentation, so more music was written with this instrumentation, so more orchestras formed, etc. It's an endless self-reinforcing feedback loop.
– Darrel Hoffman
Jul 2 at 13:31
@DarrelHoffman that doesn't explain why the orchestra kept developing from the renaissance to the romantic, then stopped.
– leftaroundabout
Jul 2 at 13:32
add a comment |
5
I agree. Specifically, the symphony orchestra seems to have been “frozen in” at its current instrument makeup sometime during the romantic period. It might be an interesting question why.
– leftaroundabout
Jun 30 at 16:54
5
Where are the quoted parts from?
– JiK
Jul 1 at 6:48
1
@leftaroundabout The "why" is simple: large quantities of music were written with this instrumentation, so many orchestras formed with this instrumentation, so more music was written with this instrumentation, so more orchestras formed, etc. It's an endless self-reinforcing feedback loop.
– Darrel Hoffman
Jul 2 at 13:31
@DarrelHoffman that doesn't explain why the orchestra kept developing from the renaissance to the romantic, then stopped.
– leftaroundabout
Jul 2 at 13:32
5
5
I agree. Specifically, the symphony orchestra seems to have been “frozen in” at its current instrument makeup sometime during the romantic period. It might be an interesting question why.
– leftaroundabout
Jun 30 at 16:54
I agree. Specifically, the symphony orchestra seems to have been “frozen in” at its current instrument makeup sometime during the romantic period. It might be an interesting question why.
– leftaroundabout
Jun 30 at 16:54
5
5
Where are the quoted parts from?
– JiK
Jul 1 at 6:48
Where are the quoted parts from?
– JiK
Jul 1 at 6:48
1
1
@leftaroundabout The "why" is simple: large quantities of music were written with this instrumentation, so many orchestras formed with this instrumentation, so more music was written with this instrumentation, so more orchestras formed, etc. It's an endless self-reinforcing feedback loop.
– Darrel Hoffman
Jul 2 at 13:31
@leftaroundabout The "why" is simple: large quantities of music were written with this instrumentation, so many orchestras formed with this instrumentation, so more music was written with this instrumentation, so more orchestras formed, etc. It's an endless self-reinforcing feedback loop.
– Darrel Hoffman
Jul 2 at 13:31
@DarrelHoffman that doesn't explain why the orchestra kept developing from the renaissance to the romantic, then stopped.
– leftaroundabout
Jul 2 at 13:32
@DarrelHoffman that doesn't explain why the orchestra kept developing from the renaissance to the romantic, then stopped.
– leftaroundabout
Jul 2 at 13:32
add a comment |
This r/classical comment by u/trambolino links to a 68-page thesis that answers your question.
Short version: 1. Most seminal symphonies were written before the invention of the saxophone. 2. When it was introduced, there weren't many skilled players. 3. The inventor Adolphe Sax manufactured all the parts of the saxophone himself, so part-makers and instrument makers rallied against his product (telling musicians to walk out of the orchestra if a saxophone would be included). 4. For the reasons mentioned above, there isn't much saxophone music from the past to inspire modern composers to include a saxophone in their symphonies.
Long version: THE MISSING SAXOPHONE:
Why the Saxophone Is Not a Permanent Member of the Orchestra
by
Mathew C. Ferraro. [Submitted to
The Dana School of Music
in Partial Fulfillment of the Requirements
for the Degree of
Master of Music
in
History and Literature.
YOUNGSTOWN STATE UNIVERSITY
May 2012]
I'll quote Ferraro's conclusion on p 54
From its earliest days, the saxophone was well received by the musical
community. Approving reviews from outstanding composers and musicians who
supported Adolphe Sax quickly followed his introduction of the saxophone. Many
believed the saxophone had all the qualities to enhance the orchestra’s sound and thus
predicted its success and rapid implementation in the orchestra. Some composers wrote
parts for the saxophone in an attempt to implement the instrument in the orchestra. and
many stated they believed the saxophone had many qualities that could enhance and
expand the orchestra’s sound. Composers predicted its success and rapid implementation
in the orchestra.
Sax’s initial intent was to create a bass instrument that was an alternative to the
bassoon and ophicleide, neither of which Sax was particularly fond. A gifted and selfassured
instrument maker, Sax eventually produced an entire family of saxophones that
many felt could bridge the gap in timbre between the brass and string sections of the
orchestra. Hector Berlioz, especially, hailed the superiority of Sax’s designs and felt the
instrument would make a fine addition to the orchestra. Other prominent composers of
the time, including Rossini and Meyerbeer, were also proponents of the newly invented
saxophone. All facts considered, it becomes clear that there were other mitigating
circumstances that negatively influenced the perception of the saxophone.
Because of his many achievements and fierce defense of his skills, Sax created an
immediate rivalry with the established instrument manufacturers in Paris. His competitors
purposely sabotaged the introduction of the saxophone and its use in the orchestra.
Feeling threatened by Sax and the growing popularity of his instruments, his rivals
and p 55.
formed a unified front against him and were able to influence musicians and composers
to reject the instrument.
The saxophone’s omission from the orchestra was also due to the lack of
professionally trained players. Although Adolphe Sax himself was appointed as instructor
of saxophone at the Paris Conservatory in the 1860s, he was dismissed after only a few
years and lessons were not offered again until 1942. Consequently the saxophone, on the
limited occasions it was required, was played or doubled by musicians who considered it
a secondary instrument. This lack of competent teachers and players resulted in
unsatisfactory performances that gave composers an inaccurate representation of the
possible applications of the saxophone.
The saxophone continued to be overlooked through the remainder of the
nineteenth century, well after Sax’s patents had run out and his rivals had accomplished
their objective. The orchestra continued to include new and improved instruments with
the exception of the saxophone, which was making its way into other genres. It was
rapidly assimilated into military bands and by the turn of the century could be found in
vaudeville acts and other similar genres as a novelty instrument. All of these factors
combined suggest why the saxophone never became part of the orchestra. Whether these
factors were intentional, as was the case during the instrument’s introduction, or
consequential due to its popularity in mainstream music, it has left the saxophone with a
limited repertoire that begins nearly ninety years after its invention.
2
Three of those four arguments (1, 2 & 4) could equally well apply to the tuba which did make it into the orchestra late, because there was a very real need for a brass instrument in that range and the tuba was superior to the other candidates (serpent, ophicleide). Unfortunately there was no need for another woodwind instrument.
– PiedPiper
Jul 1 at 7:48
Argument 3 doesn't explain why the saxophone was not (or very rarely) used later, for example by American composers after 1900.
– PiedPiper
Jul 1 at 7:52
In contrast, at least 3 types of saxophone are staples in concert band music (alto, tenor, and baritone). Clearly, there are large music ensembles very willing to use saxophones.
– Dekkadeci
Jul 1 at 13:40
add a comment |
This r/classical comment by u/trambolino links to a 68-page thesis that answers your question.
Short version: 1. Most seminal symphonies were written before the invention of the saxophone. 2. When it was introduced, there weren't many skilled players. 3. The inventor Adolphe Sax manufactured all the parts of the saxophone himself, so part-makers and instrument makers rallied against his product (telling musicians to walk out of the orchestra if a saxophone would be included). 4. For the reasons mentioned above, there isn't much saxophone music from the past to inspire modern composers to include a saxophone in their symphonies.
Long version: THE MISSING SAXOPHONE:
Why the Saxophone Is Not a Permanent Member of the Orchestra
by
Mathew C. Ferraro. [Submitted to
The Dana School of Music
in Partial Fulfillment of the Requirements
for the Degree of
Master of Music
in
History and Literature.
YOUNGSTOWN STATE UNIVERSITY
May 2012]
I'll quote Ferraro's conclusion on p 54
From its earliest days, the saxophone was well received by the musical
community. Approving reviews from outstanding composers and musicians who
supported Adolphe Sax quickly followed his introduction of the saxophone. Many
believed the saxophone had all the qualities to enhance the orchestra’s sound and thus
predicted its success and rapid implementation in the orchestra. Some composers wrote
parts for the saxophone in an attempt to implement the instrument in the orchestra. and
many stated they believed the saxophone had many qualities that could enhance and
expand the orchestra’s sound. Composers predicted its success and rapid implementation
in the orchestra.
Sax’s initial intent was to create a bass instrument that was an alternative to the
bassoon and ophicleide, neither of which Sax was particularly fond. A gifted and selfassured
instrument maker, Sax eventually produced an entire family of saxophones that
many felt could bridge the gap in timbre between the brass and string sections of the
orchestra. Hector Berlioz, especially, hailed the superiority of Sax’s designs and felt the
instrument would make a fine addition to the orchestra. Other prominent composers of
the time, including Rossini and Meyerbeer, were also proponents of the newly invented
saxophone. All facts considered, it becomes clear that there were other mitigating
circumstances that negatively influenced the perception of the saxophone.
Because of his many achievements and fierce defense of his skills, Sax created an
immediate rivalry with the established instrument manufacturers in Paris. His competitors
purposely sabotaged the introduction of the saxophone and its use in the orchestra.
Feeling threatened by Sax and the growing popularity of his instruments, his rivals
and p 55.
formed a unified front against him and were able to influence musicians and composers
to reject the instrument.
The saxophone’s omission from the orchestra was also due to the lack of
professionally trained players. Although Adolphe Sax himself was appointed as instructor
of saxophone at the Paris Conservatory in the 1860s, he was dismissed after only a few
years and lessons were not offered again until 1942. Consequently the saxophone, on the
limited occasions it was required, was played or doubled by musicians who considered it
a secondary instrument. This lack of competent teachers and players resulted in
unsatisfactory performances that gave composers an inaccurate representation of the
possible applications of the saxophone.
The saxophone continued to be overlooked through the remainder of the
nineteenth century, well after Sax’s patents had run out and his rivals had accomplished
their objective. The orchestra continued to include new and improved instruments with
the exception of the saxophone, which was making its way into other genres. It was
rapidly assimilated into military bands and by the turn of the century could be found in
vaudeville acts and other similar genres as a novelty instrument. All of these factors
combined suggest why the saxophone never became part of the orchestra. Whether these
factors were intentional, as was the case during the instrument’s introduction, or
consequential due to its popularity in mainstream music, it has left the saxophone with a
limited repertoire that begins nearly ninety years after its invention.
2
Three of those four arguments (1, 2 & 4) could equally well apply to the tuba which did make it into the orchestra late, because there was a very real need for a brass instrument in that range and the tuba was superior to the other candidates (serpent, ophicleide). Unfortunately there was no need for another woodwind instrument.
– PiedPiper
Jul 1 at 7:48
Argument 3 doesn't explain why the saxophone was not (or very rarely) used later, for example by American composers after 1900.
– PiedPiper
Jul 1 at 7:52
In contrast, at least 3 types of saxophone are staples in concert band music (alto, tenor, and baritone). Clearly, there are large music ensembles very willing to use saxophones.
– Dekkadeci
Jul 1 at 13:40
add a comment |
This r/classical comment by u/trambolino links to a 68-page thesis that answers your question.
Short version: 1. Most seminal symphonies were written before the invention of the saxophone. 2. When it was introduced, there weren't many skilled players. 3. The inventor Adolphe Sax manufactured all the parts of the saxophone himself, so part-makers and instrument makers rallied against his product (telling musicians to walk out of the orchestra if a saxophone would be included). 4. For the reasons mentioned above, there isn't much saxophone music from the past to inspire modern composers to include a saxophone in their symphonies.
Long version: THE MISSING SAXOPHONE:
Why the Saxophone Is Not a Permanent Member of the Orchestra
by
Mathew C. Ferraro. [Submitted to
The Dana School of Music
in Partial Fulfillment of the Requirements
for the Degree of
Master of Music
in
History and Literature.
YOUNGSTOWN STATE UNIVERSITY
May 2012]
I'll quote Ferraro's conclusion on p 54
From its earliest days, the saxophone was well received by the musical
community. Approving reviews from outstanding composers and musicians who
supported Adolphe Sax quickly followed his introduction of the saxophone. Many
believed the saxophone had all the qualities to enhance the orchestra’s sound and thus
predicted its success and rapid implementation in the orchestra. Some composers wrote
parts for the saxophone in an attempt to implement the instrument in the orchestra. and
many stated they believed the saxophone had many qualities that could enhance and
expand the orchestra’s sound. Composers predicted its success and rapid implementation
in the orchestra.
Sax’s initial intent was to create a bass instrument that was an alternative to the
bassoon and ophicleide, neither of which Sax was particularly fond. A gifted and selfassured
instrument maker, Sax eventually produced an entire family of saxophones that
many felt could bridge the gap in timbre between the brass and string sections of the
orchestra. Hector Berlioz, especially, hailed the superiority of Sax’s designs and felt the
instrument would make a fine addition to the orchestra. Other prominent composers of
the time, including Rossini and Meyerbeer, were also proponents of the newly invented
saxophone. All facts considered, it becomes clear that there were other mitigating
circumstances that negatively influenced the perception of the saxophone.
Because of his many achievements and fierce defense of his skills, Sax created an
immediate rivalry with the established instrument manufacturers in Paris. His competitors
purposely sabotaged the introduction of the saxophone and its use in the orchestra.
Feeling threatened by Sax and the growing popularity of his instruments, his rivals
and p 55.
formed a unified front against him and were able to influence musicians and composers
to reject the instrument.
The saxophone’s omission from the orchestra was also due to the lack of
professionally trained players. Although Adolphe Sax himself was appointed as instructor
of saxophone at the Paris Conservatory in the 1860s, he was dismissed after only a few
years and lessons were not offered again until 1942. Consequently the saxophone, on the
limited occasions it was required, was played or doubled by musicians who considered it
a secondary instrument. This lack of competent teachers and players resulted in
unsatisfactory performances that gave composers an inaccurate representation of the
possible applications of the saxophone.
The saxophone continued to be overlooked through the remainder of the
nineteenth century, well after Sax’s patents had run out and his rivals had accomplished
their objective. The orchestra continued to include new and improved instruments with
the exception of the saxophone, which was making its way into other genres. It was
rapidly assimilated into military bands and by the turn of the century could be found in
vaudeville acts and other similar genres as a novelty instrument. All of these factors
combined suggest why the saxophone never became part of the orchestra. Whether these
factors were intentional, as was the case during the instrument’s introduction, or
consequential due to its popularity in mainstream music, it has left the saxophone with a
limited repertoire that begins nearly ninety years after its invention.
This r/classical comment by u/trambolino links to a 68-page thesis that answers your question.
Short version: 1. Most seminal symphonies were written before the invention of the saxophone. 2. When it was introduced, there weren't many skilled players. 3. The inventor Adolphe Sax manufactured all the parts of the saxophone himself, so part-makers and instrument makers rallied against his product (telling musicians to walk out of the orchestra if a saxophone would be included). 4. For the reasons mentioned above, there isn't much saxophone music from the past to inspire modern composers to include a saxophone in their symphonies.
Long version: THE MISSING SAXOPHONE:
Why the Saxophone Is Not a Permanent Member of the Orchestra
by
Mathew C. Ferraro. [Submitted to
The Dana School of Music
in Partial Fulfillment of the Requirements
for the Degree of
Master of Music
in
History and Literature.
YOUNGSTOWN STATE UNIVERSITY
May 2012]
I'll quote Ferraro's conclusion on p 54
From its earliest days, the saxophone was well received by the musical
community. Approving reviews from outstanding composers and musicians who
supported Adolphe Sax quickly followed his introduction of the saxophone. Many
believed the saxophone had all the qualities to enhance the orchestra’s sound and thus
predicted its success and rapid implementation in the orchestra. Some composers wrote
parts for the saxophone in an attempt to implement the instrument in the orchestra. and
many stated they believed the saxophone had many qualities that could enhance and
expand the orchestra’s sound. Composers predicted its success and rapid implementation
in the orchestra.
Sax’s initial intent was to create a bass instrument that was an alternative to the
bassoon and ophicleide, neither of which Sax was particularly fond. A gifted and selfassured
instrument maker, Sax eventually produced an entire family of saxophones that
many felt could bridge the gap in timbre between the brass and string sections of the
orchestra. Hector Berlioz, especially, hailed the superiority of Sax’s designs and felt the
instrument would make a fine addition to the orchestra. Other prominent composers of
the time, including Rossini and Meyerbeer, were also proponents of the newly invented
saxophone. All facts considered, it becomes clear that there were other mitigating
circumstances that negatively influenced the perception of the saxophone.
Because of his many achievements and fierce defense of his skills, Sax created an
immediate rivalry with the established instrument manufacturers in Paris. His competitors
purposely sabotaged the introduction of the saxophone and its use in the orchestra.
Feeling threatened by Sax and the growing popularity of his instruments, his rivals
and p 55.
formed a unified front against him and were able to influence musicians and composers
to reject the instrument.
The saxophone’s omission from the orchestra was also due to the lack of
professionally trained players. Although Adolphe Sax himself was appointed as instructor
of saxophone at the Paris Conservatory in the 1860s, he was dismissed after only a few
years and lessons were not offered again until 1942. Consequently the saxophone, on the
limited occasions it was required, was played or doubled by musicians who considered it
a secondary instrument. This lack of competent teachers and players resulted in
unsatisfactory performances that gave composers an inaccurate representation of the
possible applications of the saxophone.
The saxophone continued to be overlooked through the remainder of the
nineteenth century, well after Sax’s patents had run out and his rivals had accomplished
their objective. The orchestra continued to include new and improved instruments with
the exception of the saxophone, which was making its way into other genres. It was
rapidly assimilated into military bands and by the turn of the century could be found in
vaudeville acts and other similar genres as a novelty instrument. All of these factors
combined suggest why the saxophone never became part of the orchestra. Whether these
factors were intentional, as was the case during the instrument’s introduction, or
consequential due to its popularity in mainstream music, it has left the saxophone with a
limited repertoire that begins nearly ninety years after its invention.
answered Jul 1 at 0:40
Greek - Area 51 ProposalGreek - Area 51 Proposal
1
1
2
Three of those four arguments (1, 2 & 4) could equally well apply to the tuba which did make it into the orchestra late, because there was a very real need for a brass instrument in that range and the tuba was superior to the other candidates (serpent, ophicleide). Unfortunately there was no need for another woodwind instrument.
– PiedPiper
Jul 1 at 7:48
Argument 3 doesn't explain why the saxophone was not (or very rarely) used later, for example by American composers after 1900.
– PiedPiper
Jul 1 at 7:52
In contrast, at least 3 types of saxophone are staples in concert band music (alto, tenor, and baritone). Clearly, there are large music ensembles very willing to use saxophones.
– Dekkadeci
Jul 1 at 13:40
add a comment |
2
Three of those four arguments (1, 2 & 4) could equally well apply to the tuba which did make it into the orchestra late, because there was a very real need for a brass instrument in that range and the tuba was superior to the other candidates (serpent, ophicleide). Unfortunately there was no need for another woodwind instrument.
– PiedPiper
Jul 1 at 7:48
Argument 3 doesn't explain why the saxophone was not (or very rarely) used later, for example by American composers after 1900.
– PiedPiper
Jul 1 at 7:52
In contrast, at least 3 types of saxophone are staples in concert band music (alto, tenor, and baritone). Clearly, there are large music ensembles very willing to use saxophones.
– Dekkadeci
Jul 1 at 13:40
2
2
Three of those four arguments (1, 2 & 4) could equally well apply to the tuba which did make it into the orchestra late, because there was a very real need for a brass instrument in that range and the tuba was superior to the other candidates (serpent, ophicleide). Unfortunately there was no need for another woodwind instrument.
– PiedPiper
Jul 1 at 7:48
Three of those four arguments (1, 2 & 4) could equally well apply to the tuba which did make it into the orchestra late, because there was a very real need for a brass instrument in that range and the tuba was superior to the other candidates (serpent, ophicleide). Unfortunately there was no need for another woodwind instrument.
– PiedPiper
Jul 1 at 7:48
Argument 3 doesn't explain why the saxophone was not (or very rarely) used later, for example by American composers after 1900.
– PiedPiper
Jul 1 at 7:52
Argument 3 doesn't explain why the saxophone was not (or very rarely) used later, for example by American composers after 1900.
– PiedPiper
Jul 1 at 7:52
In contrast, at least 3 types of saxophone are staples in concert band music (alto, tenor, and baritone). Clearly, there are large music ensembles very willing to use saxophones.
– Dekkadeci
Jul 1 at 13:40
In contrast, at least 3 types of saxophone are staples in concert band music (alto, tenor, and baritone). Clearly, there are large music ensembles very willing to use saxophones.
– Dekkadeci
Jul 1 at 13:40
add a comment |
I think the reasons are economic rather than musical.
I don't really buy the argument that it was "invented too late", because it's just 11 years younger than the tuba (1846 vs 1835). And composers did start using it pretty early on - there are pieces by Bizet, Delibes, and others who included the sax.
But composers didn't really start considering the sax a serious instrument until the 1930s, when Sigurd Rascher started performing Borck's concerto (which was written for him). Then you start seeing it used by Shostakovich, Rachmaninoff, Bernstein, Prokofiev, Britten, Vaughan Williams, etc.
So there's a pretty decent repertoire out there today. But having spent 5 years on an orchestra's board, I can tell you that two things factor heavily into programming: ticket sales and royalty expenses. Pieces written after 1924 are likely to be more expensive to perform, and lesser known composers are far less likely to fill the seats. Major orchestras have to keep their budgets under control, and smaller ensembles simply don't have the money to perform much of the available music.
11
The tuba, in addition to its own merits, served as a drop-in replacement for the serpent and ophicleide, which were not completely satisfactory as the contrabass of a Romantic orchestra's brass section. Effectively, the tuba had an established role and repertoire from day one. The saxophone did not.
– Thom Smith
Jun 30 at 16:24
1
The 1924 mention is probably a reference to the current USA public domain limits.
– Dekkadeci
Jul 1 at 13:42
add a comment |
I think the reasons are economic rather than musical.
I don't really buy the argument that it was "invented too late", because it's just 11 years younger than the tuba (1846 vs 1835). And composers did start using it pretty early on - there are pieces by Bizet, Delibes, and others who included the sax.
But composers didn't really start considering the sax a serious instrument until the 1930s, when Sigurd Rascher started performing Borck's concerto (which was written for him). Then you start seeing it used by Shostakovich, Rachmaninoff, Bernstein, Prokofiev, Britten, Vaughan Williams, etc.
So there's a pretty decent repertoire out there today. But having spent 5 years on an orchestra's board, I can tell you that two things factor heavily into programming: ticket sales and royalty expenses. Pieces written after 1924 are likely to be more expensive to perform, and lesser known composers are far less likely to fill the seats. Major orchestras have to keep their budgets under control, and smaller ensembles simply don't have the money to perform much of the available music.
11
The tuba, in addition to its own merits, served as a drop-in replacement for the serpent and ophicleide, which were not completely satisfactory as the contrabass of a Romantic orchestra's brass section. Effectively, the tuba had an established role and repertoire from day one. The saxophone did not.
– Thom Smith
Jun 30 at 16:24
1
The 1924 mention is probably a reference to the current USA public domain limits.
– Dekkadeci
Jul 1 at 13:42
add a comment |
I think the reasons are economic rather than musical.
I don't really buy the argument that it was "invented too late", because it's just 11 years younger than the tuba (1846 vs 1835). And composers did start using it pretty early on - there are pieces by Bizet, Delibes, and others who included the sax.
But composers didn't really start considering the sax a serious instrument until the 1930s, when Sigurd Rascher started performing Borck's concerto (which was written for him). Then you start seeing it used by Shostakovich, Rachmaninoff, Bernstein, Prokofiev, Britten, Vaughan Williams, etc.
So there's a pretty decent repertoire out there today. But having spent 5 years on an orchestra's board, I can tell you that two things factor heavily into programming: ticket sales and royalty expenses. Pieces written after 1924 are likely to be more expensive to perform, and lesser known composers are far less likely to fill the seats. Major orchestras have to keep their budgets under control, and smaller ensembles simply don't have the money to perform much of the available music.
I think the reasons are economic rather than musical.
I don't really buy the argument that it was "invented too late", because it's just 11 years younger than the tuba (1846 vs 1835). And composers did start using it pretty early on - there are pieces by Bizet, Delibes, and others who included the sax.
But composers didn't really start considering the sax a serious instrument until the 1930s, when Sigurd Rascher started performing Borck's concerto (which was written for him). Then you start seeing it used by Shostakovich, Rachmaninoff, Bernstein, Prokofiev, Britten, Vaughan Williams, etc.
So there's a pretty decent repertoire out there today. But having spent 5 years on an orchestra's board, I can tell you that two things factor heavily into programming: ticket sales and royalty expenses. Pieces written after 1924 are likely to be more expensive to perform, and lesser known composers are far less likely to fill the seats. Major orchestras have to keep their budgets under control, and smaller ensembles simply don't have the money to perform much of the available music.
answered Jun 30 at 15:39
Tom SerbTom Serb
2,6802 silver badges15 bronze badges
2,6802 silver badges15 bronze badges
11
The tuba, in addition to its own merits, served as a drop-in replacement for the serpent and ophicleide, which were not completely satisfactory as the contrabass of a Romantic orchestra's brass section. Effectively, the tuba had an established role and repertoire from day one. The saxophone did not.
– Thom Smith
Jun 30 at 16:24
1
The 1924 mention is probably a reference to the current USA public domain limits.
– Dekkadeci
Jul 1 at 13:42
add a comment |
11
The tuba, in addition to its own merits, served as a drop-in replacement for the serpent and ophicleide, which were not completely satisfactory as the contrabass of a Romantic orchestra's brass section. Effectively, the tuba had an established role and repertoire from day one. The saxophone did not.
– Thom Smith
Jun 30 at 16:24
1
The 1924 mention is probably a reference to the current USA public domain limits.
– Dekkadeci
Jul 1 at 13:42
11
11
The tuba, in addition to its own merits, served as a drop-in replacement for the serpent and ophicleide, which were not completely satisfactory as the contrabass of a Romantic orchestra's brass section. Effectively, the tuba had an established role and repertoire from day one. The saxophone did not.
– Thom Smith
Jun 30 at 16:24
The tuba, in addition to its own merits, served as a drop-in replacement for the serpent and ophicleide, which were not completely satisfactory as the contrabass of a Romantic orchestra's brass section. Effectively, the tuba had an established role and repertoire from day one. The saxophone did not.
– Thom Smith
Jun 30 at 16:24
1
1
The 1924 mention is probably a reference to the current USA public domain limits.
– Dekkadeci
Jul 1 at 13:42
The 1924 mention is probably a reference to the current USA public domain limits.
– Dekkadeci
Jul 1 at 13:42
add a comment |
You beat me to it! In a nutshell Adolphe Sax had a battle in Paris between his invention, the saxophone, and French instrument makers who wanted to protect their market for other comparable instruments. That and his brusque personlaity saw the saxophone sidelined for policial reasons rather thna its virtues.
add a comment |
You beat me to it! In a nutshell Adolphe Sax had a battle in Paris between his invention, the saxophone, and French instrument makers who wanted to protect their market for other comparable instruments. That and his brusque personlaity saw the saxophone sidelined for policial reasons rather thna its virtues.
add a comment |
You beat me to it! In a nutshell Adolphe Sax had a battle in Paris between his invention, the saxophone, and French instrument makers who wanted to protect their market for other comparable instruments. That and his brusque personlaity saw the saxophone sidelined for policial reasons rather thna its virtues.
You beat me to it! In a nutshell Adolphe Sax had a battle in Paris between his invention, the saxophone, and French instrument makers who wanted to protect their market for other comparable instruments. That and his brusque personlaity saw the saxophone sidelined for policial reasons rather thna its virtues.
answered Jun 30 at 9:31
Snack_Food_TermiteSnack_Food_Termite
1013 bronze badges
1013 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Music: Practice & Theory Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f86377%2fwhy-is-the-saxophone-not-common-in-classical-repertoire%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
8
Composers who included the saxophone in orchestral works include Debussy, Glazunov, Bizet, Delibes, Massenet, Strauss, Bartok, Ravel, Milhaud, Puccini, Hindemith, Berg, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, Rachmaninov... it's hardly a rarity.
– Your Uncle Bob
Jun 30 at 7:54
6
Whats the fraction of orchestral pieces (including chamber orchestras) post the date of the invention of saxophone to the total number of orchestral pieces that were composed during that time? Now run the exact same analysis with the clarinet. Moreover, whats the number of orchestras that have musicians whose primary instrument is some kind of a saxophone ? I honestly do not know the answer to either question.
– Khalian
Jun 30 at 7:59
5
The clarinet is 150 years older, and more crucially, it was around when the symphony form developed in the 18th century, and when Beethoven defined what would long be considered the standard orchestra instrumentation in the first half of the 19th century.
– Your Uncle Bob
Jun 30 at 8:07
2
So your answer is that its purely historical by nature? I wont be surprised if it actually is.
– Khalian
Jun 30 at 8:14
3
Consider the flügelhorn and the cornet, developed around the same time as the saxophone. They are also occasionally used in orchestral works, but for specific effects, and are not a standard part of orchestral instrumentation.
– Your Uncle Bob
Jun 30 at 8:19