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Expansion//Explosion and Siren Stormtamer
Counter heavy proactive control with a distruption-based aggro deck in the Legacy formatAre the two steps of Ponder an atomic action?Why does rule 608.2b counter Last Word, when Last Word can't be countered?Ways to handicap in Magic the Gathering?Why isn't Selvala, Explorer Returned's ability restricted from being used as a mana ability?Will countering a spell that left the stack still trigger abilities?When do you have to decide whether or not to use a “May” effect?If I block my opponent's Ornery Goblin with my Ornery Goblin, whose Goblin dies?Declare DominanceIf I can't win, but can stop my opponent from winning, is the game drawn?
I've had this situation come up several times in Magic Arena. I cast the Explosion half of Expansion // Explosion targeting my opponent's Siren Stormtamer. Opponent sacrifices the targeted Siren Stormtamer to itself targeting my Explosion. Somehow, I still draw cards.
Why? Siren Stormtamer's effect should counter the spell, which means both the "deal damage" and the "draw cards" halves. Is this a bug?
magic-the-gathering magic-the-gathering-arena
asked Apr 24 at 13:41
AllureAllure
1,294317
add a comment |
I've had this situation come up several times in Magic Arena. I cast the Explosion half of Expansion // Explosion targeting my opponent's Siren Stormtamer. Opponent sacrifices the targeted Siren Stormtamer to itself targeting my Explosion. Somehow, I still draw cards.
Why? Siren Stormtamer's effect should counter the spell, which means both the "deal damage" and the "draw cards" halves. Is this a bug?
magic-the-gathering magic-the-gathering-arena
asked Apr 24 at 13:41
AllureAllure
1,294317
add a comment |
I've had this situation come up several times in Magic Arena. I cast the Explosion half of Expansion // Explosion targeting my opponent's Siren Stormtamer. Opponent sacrifices the targeted Siren Stormtamer to itself targeting my Explosion. Somehow, I still draw cards.
Why? Siren Stormtamer's effect should counter the spell, which means both the "deal damage" and the "draw cards" halves. Is this a bug?
magic-the-gathering magic-the-gathering-arena
asked Apr 24 at 13:41
AllureAllure
1,294317
I've had this situation come up several times in Magic Arena. I cast the Explosion half of Expansion // Explosion targeting my opponent's Siren Stormtamer. Opponent sacrifices the targeted Siren Stormtamer to itself targeting my Explosion. Somehow, I still draw cards.
Why? Siren Stormtamer's effect should counter the spell, which means both the "deal damage" and the "draw cards" halves. Is this a bug?
magic-the-gathering magic-the-gathering-arena
magic-the-gathering magic-the-gathering-arena
asked Apr 24 at 13:41
AllureAllure
1,294317
asked Apr 24 at 13:41
AllureAllure
1,294317
asked Apr 24 at 13:41
AllureAllure
1,294317
asked Apr 24 at 13:41
AllureAllure
1,294317
asked Apr 24 at 13:41
AllureAllure
1,294317
1,294317
add a comment |
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
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Explosion is a valid target for Siren Stormtamer's ability when your opponent activates the ability. By the time the ability resolves, Explosion is no longer a valid target for the ability, so the ability fizzles for lack of legal targets. Explosion then resolves and does as much as possible, namely draw you cards.
By the time your opponent activates the ability, Explosion is targeting his Stormtamer, so Explosion is a legal target for the ability. As part of the ability activation, your opponent has to sacrifice the Stormtamer, but only after declaring targets. Sacrificing the Stormtamer as part of paying the ability activation costs has no effect on Expansion's legality as the ability's target at this point.
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell includes proposal of the spell (rules 601.2a-d) and determination and payment of costs (rules 601.2f-h). [..]
(the rules for casting spells and activating abilities are the same as far as this question is concerned.)
When the ability resolves, it checks again that its target is still legal. Since the Stormtamer is no longer on the battlefield, Explosion no longer targets your opponent or a creature he controls. Therefore, Explosion is no longer a legal target for the Stormtamer's ability, and the ability fizzles.
- Resolving Spells and Abilities
608.2b If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. [..] If all its targets, for every instance of the word "target," are now illegal, the spell or ability doesn't resolve. It's removed from the stack and, if it's a spell, put into its owner's graveyard.
Explosion can then resolve because it wasn't countered and still has a legal target; it will do as much as possible with the remaining target (yourself), so it will draw you cards.
answered Apr 24 at 14:31
HackworthHackworth
29k278131
It's worth noting that if Explosion instead said "Deal X damage to target creature. Draw X cards," then if the creature was sacrificed or otherwise became an invalid target, you wouldn't draw any cards because the spell would be countered by game rules due to a lack of valid targets - the only reason why it works this way is because it says "Target player draws X cards."
– nick012000
2 days ago
1
Mentioning hypothetical wordings can be useful, but not in this case, since the multi-target of Explosion is not at the core of the question. The core of the question is why the Stormtamer ability did not counter Explosion.
– Hackworth
2 days ago
Well, he was wondering why the "draw cards" part of the spell went off, and the reason why it went off after the Siren died is because it says "Target player draws X cards".
– nick012000
2 days ago
@nick012000 sorry just noticed that Hackworth explained why but you may have missed it. If Explosion was targetting the opponent instead of the siren, siren's ability would still have a legal target on resolution and it would counter the spell altogether. It is not simply because it only has 1 target, but because the siren's ability is unable to resolve as it no longer has a valid target on resolution.
– fireshark519
2 days ago
add a comment |
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Explosion is a valid target for Siren Stormtamer's ability when your opponent activates the ability. By the time the ability resolves, Explosion is no longer a valid target for the ability, so the ability fizzles for lack of legal targets. Explosion then resolves and does as much as possible, namely draw you cards.
By the time your opponent activates the ability, Explosion is targeting his Stormtamer, so Explosion is a legal target for the ability. As part of the ability activation, your opponent has to sacrifice the Stormtamer, but only after declaring targets. Sacrificing the Stormtamer as part of paying the ability activation costs has no effect on Expansion's legality as the ability's target at this point.
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell includes proposal of the spell (rules 601.2a-d) and determination and payment of costs (rules 601.2f-h). [..]
(the rules for casting spells and activating abilities are the same as far as this question is concerned.)
When the ability resolves, it checks again that its target is still legal. Since the Stormtamer is no longer on the battlefield, Explosion no longer targets your opponent or a creature he controls. Therefore, Explosion is no longer a legal target for the Stormtamer's ability, and the ability fizzles.
- Resolving Spells and Abilities
608.2b If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. [..] If all its targets, for every instance of the word "target," are now illegal, the spell or ability doesn't resolve. It's removed from the stack and, if it's a spell, put into its owner's graveyard.
Explosion can then resolve because it wasn't countered and still has a legal target; it will do as much as possible with the remaining target (yourself), so it will draw you cards.
answered Apr 24 at 14:31
HackworthHackworth
29k278131
It's worth noting that if Explosion instead said "Deal X damage to target creature. Draw X cards," then if the creature was sacrificed or otherwise became an invalid target, you wouldn't draw any cards because the spell would be countered by game rules due to a lack of valid targets - the only reason why it works this way is because it says "Target player draws X cards."
– nick012000
2 days ago
1
Mentioning hypothetical wordings can be useful, but not in this case, since the multi-target of Explosion is not at the core of the question. The core of the question is why the Stormtamer ability did not counter Explosion.
– Hackworth
2 days ago
Well, he was wondering why the "draw cards" part of the spell went off, and the reason why it went off after the Siren died is because it says "Target player draws X cards".
– nick012000
2 days ago
@nick012000 sorry just noticed that Hackworth explained why but you may have missed it. If Explosion was targetting the opponent instead of the siren, siren's ability would still have a legal target on resolution and it would counter the spell altogether. It is not simply because it only has 1 target, but because the siren's ability is unable to resolve as it no longer has a valid target on resolution.
– fireshark519
2 days ago
add a comment |
Explosion is a valid target for Siren Stormtamer's ability when your opponent activates the ability. By the time the ability resolves, Explosion is no longer a valid target for the ability, so the ability fizzles for lack of legal targets. Explosion then resolves and does as much as possible, namely draw you cards.
By the time your opponent activates the ability, Explosion is targeting his Stormtamer, so Explosion is a legal target for the ability. As part of the ability activation, your opponent has to sacrifice the Stormtamer, but only after declaring targets. Sacrificing the Stormtamer as part of paying the ability activation costs has no effect on Expansion's legality as the ability's target at this point.
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell includes proposal of the spell (rules 601.2a-d) and determination and payment of costs (rules 601.2f-h). [..]
(the rules for casting spells and activating abilities are the same as far as this question is concerned.)
When the ability resolves, it checks again that its target is still legal. Since the Stormtamer is no longer on the battlefield, Explosion no longer targets your opponent or a creature he controls. Therefore, Explosion is no longer a legal target for the Stormtamer's ability, and the ability fizzles.
- Resolving Spells and Abilities
608.2b If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. [..] If all its targets, for every instance of the word "target," are now illegal, the spell or ability doesn't resolve. It's removed from the stack and, if it's a spell, put into its owner's graveyard.
Explosion can then resolve because it wasn't countered and still has a legal target; it will do as much as possible with the remaining target (yourself), so it will draw you cards.
answered Apr 24 at 14:31
HackworthHackworth
29k278131
It's worth noting that if Explosion instead said "Deal X damage to target creature. Draw X cards," then if the creature was sacrificed or otherwise became an invalid target, you wouldn't draw any cards because the spell would be countered by game rules due to a lack of valid targets - the only reason why it works this way is because it says "Target player draws X cards."
– nick012000
2 days ago
1
Mentioning hypothetical wordings can be useful, but not in this case, since the multi-target of Explosion is not at the core of the question. The core of the question is why the Stormtamer ability did not counter Explosion.
– Hackworth
2 days ago
Well, he was wondering why the "draw cards" part of the spell went off, and the reason why it went off after the Siren died is because it says "Target player draws X cards".
– nick012000
2 days ago
@nick012000 sorry just noticed that Hackworth explained why but you may have missed it. If Explosion was targetting the opponent instead of the siren, siren's ability would still have a legal target on resolution and it would counter the spell altogether. It is not simply because it only has 1 target, but because the siren's ability is unable to resolve as it no longer has a valid target on resolution.
– fireshark519
2 days ago
add a comment |
Explosion is a valid target for Siren Stormtamer's ability when your opponent activates the ability. By the time the ability resolves, Explosion is no longer a valid target for the ability, so the ability fizzles for lack of legal targets. Explosion then resolves and does as much as possible, namely draw you cards.
By the time your opponent activates the ability, Explosion is targeting his Stormtamer, so Explosion is a legal target for the ability. As part of the ability activation, your opponent has to sacrifice the Stormtamer, but only after declaring targets. Sacrificing the Stormtamer as part of paying the ability activation costs has no effect on Expansion's legality as the ability's target at this point.
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell includes proposal of the spell (rules 601.2a-d) and determination and payment of costs (rules 601.2f-h). [..]
(the rules for casting spells and activating abilities are the same as far as this question is concerned.)
When the ability resolves, it checks again that its target is still legal. Since the Stormtamer is no longer on the battlefield, Explosion no longer targets your opponent or a creature he controls. Therefore, Explosion is no longer a legal target for the Stormtamer's ability, and the ability fizzles.
- Resolving Spells and Abilities
608.2b If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. [..] If all its targets, for every instance of the word "target," are now illegal, the spell or ability doesn't resolve. It's removed from the stack and, if it's a spell, put into its owner's graveyard.
Explosion can then resolve because it wasn't countered and still has a legal target; it will do as much as possible with the remaining target (yourself), so it will draw you cards.
answered Apr 24 at 14:31
HackworthHackworth
29k278131
Explosion is a valid target for Siren Stormtamer's ability when your opponent activates the ability. By the time the ability resolves, Explosion is no longer a valid target for the ability, so the ability fizzles for lack of legal targets. Explosion then resolves and does as much as possible, namely draw you cards.
By the time your opponent activates the ability, Explosion is targeting his Stormtamer, so Explosion is a legal target for the ability. As part of the ability activation, your opponent has to sacrifice the Stormtamer, but only after declaring targets. Sacrificing the Stormtamer as part of paying the ability activation costs has no effect on Expansion's legality as the ability's target at this point.
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell includes proposal of the spell (rules 601.2a-d) and determination and payment of costs (rules 601.2f-h). [..]
(the rules for casting spells and activating abilities are the same as far as this question is concerned.)
When the ability resolves, it checks again that its target is still legal. Since the Stormtamer is no longer on the battlefield, Explosion no longer targets your opponent or a creature he controls. Therefore, Explosion is no longer a legal target for the Stormtamer's ability, and the ability fizzles.
- Resolving Spells and Abilities
608.2b If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. [..] If all its targets, for every instance of the word "target," are now illegal, the spell or ability doesn't resolve. It's removed from the stack and, if it's a spell, put into its owner's graveyard.
Explosion can then resolve because it wasn't countered and still has a legal target; it will do as much as possible with the remaining target (yourself), so it will draw you cards.
answered Apr 24 at 14:31
HackworthHackworth
29k278131
edited Apr 24 at 15:03
answered Apr 24 at 14:31
HackworthHackworth
29k278131
answered Apr 24 at 14:31
HackworthHackworth
29k278131
answered Apr 24 at 14:31
HackworthHackworth
29k278131
29k278131
It's worth noting that if Explosion instead said "Deal X damage to target creature. Draw X cards," then if the creature was sacrificed or otherwise became an invalid target, you wouldn't draw any cards because the spell would be countered by game rules due to a lack of valid targets - the only reason why it works this way is because it says "Target player draws X cards."
– nick012000
2 days ago
1
Mentioning hypothetical wordings can be useful, but not in this case, since the multi-target of Explosion is not at the core of the question. The core of the question is why the Stormtamer ability did not counter Explosion.
– Hackworth
2 days ago
Well, he was wondering why the "draw cards" part of the spell went off, and the reason why it went off after the Siren died is because it says "Target player draws X cards".
– nick012000
2 days ago
@nick012000 sorry just noticed that Hackworth explained why but you may have missed it. If Explosion was targetting the opponent instead of the siren, siren's ability would still have a legal target on resolution and it would counter the spell altogether. It is not simply because it only has 1 target, but because the siren's ability is unable to resolve as it no longer has a valid target on resolution.
– fireshark519
2 days ago
add a comment |
It's worth noting that if Explosion instead said "Deal X damage to target creature. Draw X cards," then if the creature was sacrificed or otherwise became an invalid target, you wouldn't draw any cards because the spell would be countered by game rules due to a lack of valid targets - the only reason why it works this way is because it says "Target player draws X cards."
– nick012000
2 days ago
1
Mentioning hypothetical wordings can be useful, but not in this case, since the multi-target of Explosion is not at the core of the question. The core of the question is why the Stormtamer ability did not counter Explosion.
– Hackworth
2 days ago
Well, he was wondering why the "draw cards" part of the spell went off, and the reason why it went off after the Siren died is because it says "Target player draws X cards".
– nick012000
2 days ago
@nick012000 sorry just noticed that Hackworth explained why but you may have missed it. If Explosion was targetting the opponent instead of the siren, siren's ability would still have a legal target on resolution and it would counter the spell altogether. It is not simply because it only has 1 target, but because the siren's ability is unable to resolve as it no longer has a valid target on resolution.
– fireshark519
2 days ago
It's worth noting that if Explosion instead said "Deal X damage to target creature. Draw X cards," then if the creature was sacrificed or otherwise became an invalid target, you wouldn't draw any cards because the spell would be countered by game rules due to a lack of valid targets - the only reason why it works this way is because it says "Target player draws X cards."
– nick012000
2 days ago
It's worth noting that if Explosion instead said "Deal X damage to target creature. Draw X cards," then if the creature was sacrificed or otherwise became an invalid target, you wouldn't draw any cards because the spell would be countered by game rules due to a lack of valid targets - the only reason why it works this way is because it says "Target player draws X cards."
– nick012000
2 days ago
1
1
Mentioning hypothetical wordings can be useful, but not in this case, since the multi-target of Explosion is not at the core of the question. The core of the question is why the Stormtamer ability did not counter Explosion.
– Hackworth
2 days ago
Mentioning hypothetical wordings can be useful, but not in this case, since the multi-target of Explosion is not at the core of the question. The core of the question is why the Stormtamer ability did not counter Explosion.
– Hackworth
2 days ago
Well, he was wondering why the "draw cards" part of the spell went off, and the reason why it went off after the Siren died is because it says "Target player draws X cards".
– nick012000
2 days ago
Well, he was wondering why the "draw cards" part of the spell went off, and the reason why it went off after the Siren died is because it says "Target player draws X cards".
– nick012000
2 days ago
@nick012000 sorry just noticed that Hackworth explained why but you may have missed it. If Explosion was targetting the opponent instead of the siren, siren's ability would still have a legal target on resolution and it would counter the spell altogether. It is not simply because it only has 1 target, but because the siren's ability is unable to resolve as it no longer has a valid target on resolution.
– fireshark519
2 days ago
@nick012000 sorry just noticed that Hackworth explained why but you may have missed it. If Explosion was targetting the opponent instead of the siren, siren's ability would still have a legal target on resolution and it would counter the spell altogether. It is not simply because it only has 1 target, but because the siren's ability is unable to resolve as it no longer has a valid target on resolution.
– fireshark519
2 days ago
add a comment |
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