Does Cersei deserve to be called a tyrant?Who is “the valonqar” from Cersei's prophecy?Does anyone actually recognize Cersei as Queen?Why is Arya telling the truth instead of lying?Who did Cersei mean by 'silver-haired bitch'?Does Game of Thrones deserve its reputation for killing off major characters?Does Cersei have any friends?How does Cersei pay her bills?How could Cersei arrange for the King to raise Jaime to the Kingsguard?Why did Cersei blow up the Sept?Why didn't Daenerys' advisers suggest assassinating Cersei?
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Does Cersei deserve to be called a tyrant?
Who is “the valonqar” from Cersei's prophecy?Does anyone actually recognize Cersei as Queen?Why is Arya telling the truth instead of lying?Who did Cersei mean by 'silver-haired bitch'?Does Game of Thrones deserve its reputation for killing off major characters?Does Cersei have any friends?How does Cersei pay her bills?How could Cersei arrange for the King to raise Jaime to the Kingsguard?Why did Cersei blow up the Sept?Why didn't Daenerys' advisers suggest assassinating Cersei?
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Throughout season 8 of Game of Thrones, Cersei is repeatedly referred to as "a tyrant", specifically by Daenerys, implying that she is making the people of King's Landing and the Seven Kingdoms "suffer" under her rule.
However, what is it exactly that Cersei has done that can be considered to have been the cause of suffering for the poor people of the realm?
Yes, she is responsible for the annihilation of the Faith Militant, but those who died in the explosion at the Sept of Baelor were probably all septons or highborns. Did the commonfolk suffer because of that?
And yes, she reneged her promise to fight against the White Walkers, but the White Walkers never reached any territory under her control, and only killed people who were, directly or through their leaders, in open rebellion against the Iron Throne. So, strictly speaking, they were not her responsibility to protect.
Also, even though she has been using the people in King's Landing has human shields, she is not harming them directly.
More in general, did she raise any taxes? Did she restrict some freedom? Did she commit any act of gratuitous cruelty? I concede that she probably does not care much about the commonfolk, but it seems to me that she also doesn't treat them harshly just for fun, like her son Joffrey did. Overall, she doesn't look to be more evil than most other rulers.
So how can Daenerys justify calling her a "tyrant"?
game-of-thrones
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lukas84 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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|
show 8 more comments
Throughout season 8 of Game of Thrones, Cersei is repeatedly referred to as "a tyrant", specifically by Daenerys, implying that she is making the people of King's Landing and the Seven Kingdoms "suffer" under her rule.
However, what is it exactly that Cersei has done that can be considered to have been the cause of suffering for the poor people of the realm?
Yes, she is responsible for the annihilation of the Faith Militant, but those who died in the explosion at the Sept of Baelor were probably all septons or highborns. Did the commonfolk suffer because of that?
And yes, she reneged her promise to fight against the White Walkers, but the White Walkers never reached any territory under her control, and only killed people who were, directly or through their leaders, in open rebellion against the Iron Throne. So, strictly speaking, they were not her responsibility to protect.
Also, even though she has been using the people in King's Landing has human shields, she is not harming them directly.
More in general, did she raise any taxes? Did she restrict some freedom? Did she commit any act of gratuitous cruelty? I concede that she probably does not care much about the commonfolk, but it seems to me that she also doesn't treat them harshly just for fun, like her son Joffrey did. Overall, she doesn't look to be more evil than most other rulers.
So how can Daenerys justify calling her a "tyrant"?
game-of-thrones
New contributor
lukas84 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
3
War is expensive. Money have to come from somewhere. Food has to be taken from someone else. Starvation and taxes may be enought to qualify for the lower tier of tyrany. Cut few heads, burn a Church or two and you start to have sothing solid.
– xdtTransform
May 15 at 11:22
1
@xdtTransform FWIW the money for the war mostly came from the Iron Bank but I'm sure she also raised taxes.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 11:23
17
"Then she has been using the people in King's Landing has human shields; but again, she is not harming them directly." There is a reason this is a war-crime.
– JAD
May 15 at 11:24
@TheLethalCarrot, Lannester is almost bankrupt. The realm is basically the only ressource left.
– xdtTransform
May 15 at 11:24
@xdtTransform I know, the Iron Bank loaned her the money in Season 7, that's my point, that's how she could afford the GC.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 11:25
|
show 8 more comments
Throughout season 8 of Game of Thrones, Cersei is repeatedly referred to as "a tyrant", specifically by Daenerys, implying that she is making the people of King's Landing and the Seven Kingdoms "suffer" under her rule.
However, what is it exactly that Cersei has done that can be considered to have been the cause of suffering for the poor people of the realm?
Yes, she is responsible for the annihilation of the Faith Militant, but those who died in the explosion at the Sept of Baelor were probably all septons or highborns. Did the commonfolk suffer because of that?
And yes, she reneged her promise to fight against the White Walkers, but the White Walkers never reached any territory under her control, and only killed people who were, directly or through their leaders, in open rebellion against the Iron Throne. So, strictly speaking, they were not her responsibility to protect.
Also, even though she has been using the people in King's Landing has human shields, she is not harming them directly.
More in general, did she raise any taxes? Did she restrict some freedom? Did she commit any act of gratuitous cruelty? I concede that she probably does not care much about the commonfolk, but it seems to me that she also doesn't treat them harshly just for fun, like her son Joffrey did. Overall, she doesn't look to be more evil than most other rulers.
So how can Daenerys justify calling her a "tyrant"?
game-of-thrones
New contributor
lukas84 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Throughout season 8 of Game of Thrones, Cersei is repeatedly referred to as "a tyrant", specifically by Daenerys, implying that she is making the people of King's Landing and the Seven Kingdoms "suffer" under her rule.
However, what is it exactly that Cersei has done that can be considered to have been the cause of suffering for the poor people of the realm?
Yes, she is responsible for the annihilation of the Faith Militant, but those who died in the explosion at the Sept of Baelor were probably all septons or highborns. Did the commonfolk suffer because of that?
And yes, she reneged her promise to fight against the White Walkers, but the White Walkers never reached any territory under her control, and only killed people who were, directly or through their leaders, in open rebellion against the Iron Throne. So, strictly speaking, they were not her responsibility to protect.
Also, even though she has been using the people in King's Landing has human shields, she is not harming them directly.
More in general, did she raise any taxes? Did she restrict some freedom? Did she commit any act of gratuitous cruelty? I concede that she probably does not care much about the commonfolk, but it seems to me that she also doesn't treat them harshly just for fun, like her son Joffrey did. Overall, she doesn't look to be more evil than most other rulers.
So how can Daenerys justify calling her a "tyrant"?
game-of-thrones
game-of-thrones
New contributor
lukas84 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
lukas84 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited May 16 at 0:47
Alec A
9942528
9942528
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asked May 15 at 11:15
lukas84lukas84
1606
1606
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3
War is expensive. Money have to come from somewhere. Food has to be taken from someone else. Starvation and taxes may be enought to qualify for the lower tier of tyrany. Cut few heads, burn a Church or two and you start to have sothing solid.
– xdtTransform
May 15 at 11:22
1
@xdtTransform FWIW the money for the war mostly came from the Iron Bank but I'm sure she also raised taxes.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 11:23
17
"Then she has been using the people in King's Landing has human shields; but again, she is not harming them directly." There is a reason this is a war-crime.
– JAD
May 15 at 11:24
@TheLethalCarrot, Lannester is almost bankrupt. The realm is basically the only ressource left.
– xdtTransform
May 15 at 11:24
@xdtTransform I know, the Iron Bank loaned her the money in Season 7, that's my point, that's how she could afford the GC.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 11:25
|
show 8 more comments
3
War is expensive. Money have to come from somewhere. Food has to be taken from someone else. Starvation and taxes may be enought to qualify for the lower tier of tyrany. Cut few heads, burn a Church or two and you start to have sothing solid.
– xdtTransform
May 15 at 11:22
1
@xdtTransform FWIW the money for the war mostly came from the Iron Bank but I'm sure she also raised taxes.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 11:23
17
"Then she has been using the people in King's Landing has human shields; but again, she is not harming them directly." There is a reason this is a war-crime.
– JAD
May 15 at 11:24
@TheLethalCarrot, Lannester is almost bankrupt. The realm is basically the only ressource left.
– xdtTransform
May 15 at 11:24
@xdtTransform I know, the Iron Bank loaned her the money in Season 7, that's my point, that's how she could afford the GC.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 11:25
3
3
War is expensive. Money have to come from somewhere. Food has to be taken from someone else. Starvation and taxes may be enought to qualify for the lower tier of tyrany. Cut few heads, burn a Church or two and you start to have sothing solid.
– xdtTransform
May 15 at 11:22
War is expensive. Money have to come from somewhere. Food has to be taken from someone else. Starvation and taxes may be enought to qualify for the lower tier of tyrany. Cut few heads, burn a Church or two and you start to have sothing solid.
– xdtTransform
May 15 at 11:22
1
1
@xdtTransform FWIW the money for the war mostly came from the Iron Bank but I'm sure she also raised taxes.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 11:23
@xdtTransform FWIW the money for the war mostly came from the Iron Bank but I'm sure she also raised taxes.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 11:23
17
17
"Then she has been using the people in King's Landing has human shields; but again, she is not harming them directly." There is a reason this is a war-crime.
– JAD
May 15 at 11:24
"Then she has been using the people in King's Landing has human shields; but again, she is not harming them directly." There is a reason this is a war-crime.
– JAD
May 15 at 11:24
@TheLethalCarrot, Lannester is almost bankrupt. The realm is basically the only ressource left.
– xdtTransform
May 15 at 11:24
@TheLethalCarrot, Lannester is almost bankrupt. The realm is basically the only ressource left.
– xdtTransform
May 15 at 11:24
@xdtTransform I know, the Iron Bank loaned her the money in Season 7, that's my point, that's how she could afford the GC.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 11:25
@xdtTransform I know, the Iron Bank loaned her the money in Season 7, that's my point, that's how she could afford the GC.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 11:25
|
show 8 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
Tyrant: a cruel and oppressive ruler.
Cersei is extremely cruel, I don't think we really need to explain this or argue against it. Remember that she also tortures Septa Unella and Elia and Tyene Sand.
Oppressive: inflicting harsh and authoritarian treatment.
She very much does this, she straight up murders all of those who oppose her, as you say with the Sept of Baelor "incident".
And using the common people as human shields is a very obvious and cruel thing tot do, I don't think anyone would deny that.
As xdtTransform mentions in a comment it's also worth noting that taxes probably were raised as Cersei has a lot of bodies in King's Landing at present that need feeding and that food needs to come from somewhere and you can guarantee the common folk will be the last to receive it.
Being a tyrant doesn't necessarily mean she is doing harm in her rule or inflicting damage on those under it. However, Cersei doesn't care about the people of the King's Landing and solely about her children and maybe Jaime. She wants power for the sake of power not to make the world a better place.
2
Wanted. If at all, she wantedpower for the sake of power. I'd say she was thrown into the Game of Thrones by her father and Cersei always worked under the assumption:When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground.She wanted power, because she didn't want to die. The latter are even her final words, I think.
– user1129682
May 15 at 11:47
2
I don't think the Faith Militant was just "opposing" her: they were harassing Cersei very brutally, and not based on "crimes" that she committed, but rather on "sins", i.e. acts forbidden not by the law but by religion, and that were somewhat tolerated previously, but that the High Sparrow unilaterally and retroactively decided to punish, in order to pursue his own agenda. Obviously Cersei's reaction was very extreme, but the victims were not entirely innocent.
– lukas84
May 15 at 12:58
"Cersei is pretty damn cruel, I don't think we really need to explain this or argue against it." Well, that's exactly what I want to argue about with my question :D About "Using the common people as human shields is a very obvious and cruel thing to do": it wasn't done so openly, they were not tied to the walls or something like that. They were just called inside the city. The intent of putting them in danger is obvious; but still, it was a city, not a battlefield.
– lukas84
May 15 at 12:59
1
@lukas84 The Faith Militant didn't dingle out Cersei specifically, they did that to everyone. They weren't harassing her they were punishing her under the God's orders. Religion and law blur into one in Westeros.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 13:00
@TheLethalCarrot, so who did they dingle out? :)
– Paul
May 15 at 19:53
|
show 1 more comment
I don't know whether the statements by Daenerys and others in the televison series Game of Thrones are based on statements in the novel series A Song of Ice and Fire that Cersei is a tyrant. I don't know which writer(s) are responsible for those statements and what they meant by them.
But it is possible that the writer or writers who describe Cersei as a tyrant might be aware of the history of the word tyrant.
The English noun tyrant appears in Middle English use, via Old French, from the 1290s. The word derives from Latin tyrannus, meaning "illegitimate ruler", and this in turn from the Greek τύραννος tyrannos "monarch, ruler of a polis"; tyrannos in its turn has a Pre-Greek origin, perhaps from Lydian.[6][7] The final -t arises in Old French by association with the present participles in -ant.[8]
"The word 'tyranny' is used with many meanings, not only by the Greeks, but throughout the tradition of the great books."[9] The Oxford English Dictionary offers alternative definitions: a ruler, an illegitimate ruler (a usurper), an absolute ruler (despot) or an oppressive, unjust or cruel ruler. The term is usually applied to vicious autocrats who achieve their goals by unjust and harsh means. The definition of a tyrant is cursed by subjectivity. Oppression, injustice and cruelty do not have standardized measurements or thresholds.
in ancient Greece, tyrants were influential opportunists that came to power by securing the support of different factions of a deme. The word tyrannos, possibly pre-Greek, Pelasgian or eastern in origin,[16] then carried no ethical censure; it simply referred to anyone, good or bad, who obtained executive power in a polis by unconventional means. Support for the tyrants came from the growing middle class and from the peasants who had no land or were in debt to the wealthy landowners. It is true that they had no legal right to rule, but the people preferred them over kings or the aristocracy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrant1
So by the original Greek definition, the leaders of the French Revolution were tyrants, no matter how good or how evil one thinks that they were. And the founding fathers of the USA were tyrants by that definition.
In late antiquity the word tyrant meant an Roman usurper who claimed to be emperor but didn't succeed enough to go on the lists of emperors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_usurper2
For example, the reign of Gallienus (260-268) was full of attempts to usurp the throne, though the claim that there were thirty tyrants during his reign is a bit exaggerated.
Famous successful Roman usurpers or tyrants by that definition include Vespasian, Septimius Severus, Diocletian, St. Constantine I the Great (the first Christian emperor) etc.
Roman usurpers or tyrants in Britain or associated with Britain included Carausius (286-292, Allectus (293-296), Magnentius (350-353), Magnus Maximus (383-388), Marcus (406-407), Gratian (407), and Constantine III (407-411). It is no wonder that Gildas writing sometime about 480 to 580 wrote that Britain was a province fertile in tyrants. Gildas also described the invitation to the Saxon mercenaries as coming from the entire council and "the proud tyrant" implying that there was at least one self proclaimed emperor in post Roman Britain. Procopius also wrote that since Constantine III to his own time Britain had been ruled by tyrants, implying that there was a whole line of emperors in post Roman Britain.
So it seems possible that when Daenerys said Cersei was a tyrant, she didn't necessarily mean that Cersei ruled in a harsh and cruel manner, but possibly meant that Cersei had illegally usurped the rule from people with a better right to rule, like for example Daenerys herself in her own opinion.
add a comment |
Google dictionary gives three definitions for the word "tyrant":
- a cruel and oppressive ruler.
- a person exercising power or control in a cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary way.
- a ruler who seized absolute power without legal right.
(emphasis mine.)
I believe the latter definition, though less well known nowadays, is the original meaning of the word, and very probably what Daenerys means - although the fact that the word has also become associated with cruelty and oppression is politically useful so may have also influenced her choice of words. Still, if challenged to justify the label, she would just have to point to the original definition.
She also killed her husband Robert Baratheon. Not to mention, she didn't respect the will of Robert.
– I Love You 3000
May 15 at 20:31
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
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Tyrant: a cruel and oppressive ruler.
Cersei is extremely cruel, I don't think we really need to explain this or argue against it. Remember that she also tortures Septa Unella and Elia and Tyene Sand.
Oppressive: inflicting harsh and authoritarian treatment.
She very much does this, she straight up murders all of those who oppose her, as you say with the Sept of Baelor "incident".
And using the common people as human shields is a very obvious and cruel thing tot do, I don't think anyone would deny that.
As xdtTransform mentions in a comment it's also worth noting that taxes probably were raised as Cersei has a lot of bodies in King's Landing at present that need feeding and that food needs to come from somewhere and you can guarantee the common folk will be the last to receive it.
Being a tyrant doesn't necessarily mean she is doing harm in her rule or inflicting damage on those under it. However, Cersei doesn't care about the people of the King's Landing and solely about her children and maybe Jaime. She wants power for the sake of power not to make the world a better place.
2
Wanted. If at all, she wantedpower for the sake of power. I'd say she was thrown into the Game of Thrones by her father and Cersei always worked under the assumption:When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground.She wanted power, because she didn't want to die. The latter are even her final words, I think.
– user1129682
May 15 at 11:47
2
I don't think the Faith Militant was just "opposing" her: they were harassing Cersei very brutally, and not based on "crimes" that she committed, but rather on "sins", i.e. acts forbidden not by the law but by religion, and that were somewhat tolerated previously, but that the High Sparrow unilaterally and retroactively decided to punish, in order to pursue his own agenda. Obviously Cersei's reaction was very extreme, but the victims were not entirely innocent.
– lukas84
May 15 at 12:58
"Cersei is pretty damn cruel, I don't think we really need to explain this or argue against it." Well, that's exactly what I want to argue about with my question :D About "Using the common people as human shields is a very obvious and cruel thing to do": it wasn't done so openly, they were not tied to the walls or something like that. They were just called inside the city. The intent of putting them in danger is obvious; but still, it was a city, not a battlefield.
– lukas84
May 15 at 12:59
1
@lukas84 The Faith Militant didn't dingle out Cersei specifically, they did that to everyone. They weren't harassing her they were punishing her under the God's orders. Religion and law blur into one in Westeros.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 13:00
@TheLethalCarrot, so who did they dingle out? :)
– Paul
May 15 at 19:53
|
show 1 more comment
Tyrant: a cruel and oppressive ruler.
Cersei is extremely cruel, I don't think we really need to explain this or argue against it. Remember that she also tortures Septa Unella and Elia and Tyene Sand.
Oppressive: inflicting harsh and authoritarian treatment.
She very much does this, she straight up murders all of those who oppose her, as you say with the Sept of Baelor "incident".
And using the common people as human shields is a very obvious and cruel thing tot do, I don't think anyone would deny that.
As xdtTransform mentions in a comment it's also worth noting that taxes probably were raised as Cersei has a lot of bodies in King's Landing at present that need feeding and that food needs to come from somewhere and you can guarantee the common folk will be the last to receive it.
Being a tyrant doesn't necessarily mean she is doing harm in her rule or inflicting damage on those under it. However, Cersei doesn't care about the people of the King's Landing and solely about her children and maybe Jaime. She wants power for the sake of power not to make the world a better place.
2
Wanted. If at all, she wantedpower for the sake of power. I'd say she was thrown into the Game of Thrones by her father and Cersei always worked under the assumption:When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground.She wanted power, because she didn't want to die. The latter are even her final words, I think.
– user1129682
May 15 at 11:47
2
I don't think the Faith Militant was just "opposing" her: they were harassing Cersei very brutally, and not based on "crimes" that she committed, but rather on "sins", i.e. acts forbidden not by the law but by religion, and that were somewhat tolerated previously, but that the High Sparrow unilaterally and retroactively decided to punish, in order to pursue his own agenda. Obviously Cersei's reaction was very extreme, but the victims were not entirely innocent.
– lukas84
May 15 at 12:58
"Cersei is pretty damn cruel, I don't think we really need to explain this or argue against it." Well, that's exactly what I want to argue about with my question :D About "Using the common people as human shields is a very obvious and cruel thing to do": it wasn't done so openly, they were not tied to the walls or something like that. They were just called inside the city. The intent of putting them in danger is obvious; but still, it was a city, not a battlefield.
– lukas84
May 15 at 12:59
1
@lukas84 The Faith Militant didn't dingle out Cersei specifically, they did that to everyone. They weren't harassing her they were punishing her under the God's orders. Religion and law blur into one in Westeros.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 13:00
@TheLethalCarrot, so who did they dingle out? :)
– Paul
May 15 at 19:53
|
show 1 more comment
Tyrant: a cruel and oppressive ruler.
Cersei is extremely cruel, I don't think we really need to explain this or argue against it. Remember that she also tortures Septa Unella and Elia and Tyene Sand.
Oppressive: inflicting harsh and authoritarian treatment.
She very much does this, she straight up murders all of those who oppose her, as you say with the Sept of Baelor "incident".
And using the common people as human shields is a very obvious and cruel thing tot do, I don't think anyone would deny that.
As xdtTransform mentions in a comment it's also worth noting that taxes probably were raised as Cersei has a lot of bodies in King's Landing at present that need feeding and that food needs to come from somewhere and you can guarantee the common folk will be the last to receive it.
Being a tyrant doesn't necessarily mean she is doing harm in her rule or inflicting damage on those under it. However, Cersei doesn't care about the people of the King's Landing and solely about her children and maybe Jaime. She wants power for the sake of power not to make the world a better place.
Tyrant: a cruel and oppressive ruler.
Cersei is extremely cruel, I don't think we really need to explain this or argue against it. Remember that she also tortures Septa Unella and Elia and Tyene Sand.
Oppressive: inflicting harsh and authoritarian treatment.
She very much does this, she straight up murders all of those who oppose her, as you say with the Sept of Baelor "incident".
And using the common people as human shields is a very obvious and cruel thing tot do, I don't think anyone would deny that.
As xdtTransform mentions in a comment it's also worth noting that taxes probably were raised as Cersei has a lot of bodies in King's Landing at present that need feeding and that food needs to come from somewhere and you can guarantee the common folk will be the last to receive it.
Being a tyrant doesn't necessarily mean she is doing harm in her rule or inflicting damage on those under it. However, Cersei doesn't care about the people of the King's Landing and solely about her children and maybe Jaime. She wants power for the sake of power not to make the world a better place.
edited May 16 at 8:26
answered May 15 at 11:22
TheLethalCarrotTheLethalCarrot
59.2k24384429
59.2k24384429
2
Wanted. If at all, she wantedpower for the sake of power. I'd say she was thrown into the Game of Thrones by her father and Cersei always worked under the assumption:When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground.She wanted power, because she didn't want to die. The latter are even her final words, I think.
– user1129682
May 15 at 11:47
2
I don't think the Faith Militant was just "opposing" her: they were harassing Cersei very brutally, and not based on "crimes" that she committed, but rather on "sins", i.e. acts forbidden not by the law but by religion, and that were somewhat tolerated previously, but that the High Sparrow unilaterally and retroactively decided to punish, in order to pursue his own agenda. Obviously Cersei's reaction was very extreme, but the victims were not entirely innocent.
– lukas84
May 15 at 12:58
"Cersei is pretty damn cruel, I don't think we really need to explain this or argue against it." Well, that's exactly what I want to argue about with my question :D About "Using the common people as human shields is a very obvious and cruel thing to do": it wasn't done so openly, they were not tied to the walls or something like that. They were just called inside the city. The intent of putting them in danger is obvious; but still, it was a city, not a battlefield.
– lukas84
May 15 at 12:59
1
@lukas84 The Faith Militant didn't dingle out Cersei specifically, they did that to everyone. They weren't harassing her they were punishing her under the God's orders. Religion and law blur into one in Westeros.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 13:00
@TheLethalCarrot, so who did they dingle out? :)
– Paul
May 15 at 19:53
|
show 1 more comment
2
Wanted. If at all, she wantedpower for the sake of power. I'd say she was thrown into the Game of Thrones by her father and Cersei always worked under the assumption:When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground.She wanted power, because she didn't want to die. The latter are even her final words, I think.
– user1129682
May 15 at 11:47
2
I don't think the Faith Militant was just "opposing" her: they were harassing Cersei very brutally, and not based on "crimes" that she committed, but rather on "sins", i.e. acts forbidden not by the law but by religion, and that were somewhat tolerated previously, but that the High Sparrow unilaterally and retroactively decided to punish, in order to pursue his own agenda. Obviously Cersei's reaction was very extreme, but the victims were not entirely innocent.
– lukas84
May 15 at 12:58
"Cersei is pretty damn cruel, I don't think we really need to explain this or argue against it." Well, that's exactly what I want to argue about with my question :D About "Using the common people as human shields is a very obvious and cruel thing to do": it wasn't done so openly, they were not tied to the walls or something like that. They were just called inside the city. The intent of putting them in danger is obvious; but still, it was a city, not a battlefield.
– lukas84
May 15 at 12:59
1
@lukas84 The Faith Militant didn't dingle out Cersei specifically, they did that to everyone. They weren't harassing her they were punishing her under the God's orders. Religion and law blur into one in Westeros.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 13:00
@TheLethalCarrot, so who did they dingle out? :)
– Paul
May 15 at 19:53
2
2
Want
ed. If at all, she wanted power for the sake of power. I'd say she was thrown into the Game of Thrones by her father and Cersei always worked under the assumption: When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground. She wanted power, because she didn't want to die. The latter are even her final words, I think.– user1129682
May 15 at 11:47
Want
ed. If at all, she wanted power for the sake of power. I'd say she was thrown into the Game of Thrones by her father and Cersei always worked under the assumption: When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground. She wanted power, because she didn't want to die. The latter are even her final words, I think.– user1129682
May 15 at 11:47
2
2
I don't think the Faith Militant was just "opposing" her: they were harassing Cersei very brutally, and not based on "crimes" that she committed, but rather on "sins", i.e. acts forbidden not by the law but by religion, and that were somewhat tolerated previously, but that the High Sparrow unilaterally and retroactively decided to punish, in order to pursue his own agenda. Obviously Cersei's reaction was very extreme, but the victims were not entirely innocent.
– lukas84
May 15 at 12:58
I don't think the Faith Militant was just "opposing" her: they were harassing Cersei very brutally, and not based on "crimes" that she committed, but rather on "sins", i.e. acts forbidden not by the law but by religion, and that were somewhat tolerated previously, but that the High Sparrow unilaterally and retroactively decided to punish, in order to pursue his own agenda. Obviously Cersei's reaction was very extreme, but the victims were not entirely innocent.
– lukas84
May 15 at 12:58
"Cersei is pretty damn cruel, I don't think we really need to explain this or argue against it." Well, that's exactly what I want to argue about with my question :D About "Using the common people as human shields is a very obvious and cruel thing to do": it wasn't done so openly, they were not tied to the walls or something like that. They were just called inside the city. The intent of putting them in danger is obvious; but still, it was a city, not a battlefield.
– lukas84
May 15 at 12:59
"Cersei is pretty damn cruel, I don't think we really need to explain this or argue against it." Well, that's exactly what I want to argue about with my question :D About "Using the common people as human shields is a very obvious and cruel thing to do": it wasn't done so openly, they were not tied to the walls or something like that. They were just called inside the city. The intent of putting them in danger is obvious; but still, it was a city, not a battlefield.
– lukas84
May 15 at 12:59
1
1
@lukas84 The Faith Militant didn't dingle out Cersei specifically, they did that to everyone. They weren't harassing her they were punishing her under the God's orders. Religion and law blur into one in Westeros.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 13:00
@lukas84 The Faith Militant didn't dingle out Cersei specifically, they did that to everyone. They weren't harassing her they were punishing her under the God's orders. Religion and law blur into one in Westeros.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 13:00
@TheLethalCarrot, so who did they dingle out? :)
– Paul
May 15 at 19:53
@TheLethalCarrot, so who did they dingle out? :)
– Paul
May 15 at 19:53
|
show 1 more comment
I don't know whether the statements by Daenerys and others in the televison series Game of Thrones are based on statements in the novel series A Song of Ice and Fire that Cersei is a tyrant. I don't know which writer(s) are responsible for those statements and what they meant by them.
But it is possible that the writer or writers who describe Cersei as a tyrant might be aware of the history of the word tyrant.
The English noun tyrant appears in Middle English use, via Old French, from the 1290s. The word derives from Latin tyrannus, meaning "illegitimate ruler", and this in turn from the Greek τύραννος tyrannos "monarch, ruler of a polis"; tyrannos in its turn has a Pre-Greek origin, perhaps from Lydian.[6][7] The final -t arises in Old French by association with the present participles in -ant.[8]
"The word 'tyranny' is used with many meanings, not only by the Greeks, but throughout the tradition of the great books."[9] The Oxford English Dictionary offers alternative definitions: a ruler, an illegitimate ruler (a usurper), an absolute ruler (despot) or an oppressive, unjust or cruel ruler. The term is usually applied to vicious autocrats who achieve their goals by unjust and harsh means. The definition of a tyrant is cursed by subjectivity. Oppression, injustice and cruelty do not have standardized measurements or thresholds.
in ancient Greece, tyrants were influential opportunists that came to power by securing the support of different factions of a deme. The word tyrannos, possibly pre-Greek, Pelasgian or eastern in origin,[16] then carried no ethical censure; it simply referred to anyone, good or bad, who obtained executive power in a polis by unconventional means. Support for the tyrants came from the growing middle class and from the peasants who had no land or were in debt to the wealthy landowners. It is true that they had no legal right to rule, but the people preferred them over kings or the aristocracy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrant1
So by the original Greek definition, the leaders of the French Revolution were tyrants, no matter how good or how evil one thinks that they were. And the founding fathers of the USA were tyrants by that definition.
In late antiquity the word tyrant meant an Roman usurper who claimed to be emperor but didn't succeed enough to go on the lists of emperors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_usurper2
For example, the reign of Gallienus (260-268) was full of attempts to usurp the throne, though the claim that there were thirty tyrants during his reign is a bit exaggerated.
Famous successful Roman usurpers or tyrants by that definition include Vespasian, Septimius Severus, Diocletian, St. Constantine I the Great (the first Christian emperor) etc.
Roman usurpers or tyrants in Britain or associated with Britain included Carausius (286-292, Allectus (293-296), Magnentius (350-353), Magnus Maximus (383-388), Marcus (406-407), Gratian (407), and Constantine III (407-411). It is no wonder that Gildas writing sometime about 480 to 580 wrote that Britain was a province fertile in tyrants. Gildas also described the invitation to the Saxon mercenaries as coming from the entire council and "the proud tyrant" implying that there was at least one self proclaimed emperor in post Roman Britain. Procopius also wrote that since Constantine III to his own time Britain had been ruled by tyrants, implying that there was a whole line of emperors in post Roman Britain.
So it seems possible that when Daenerys said Cersei was a tyrant, she didn't necessarily mean that Cersei ruled in a harsh and cruel manner, but possibly meant that Cersei had illegally usurped the rule from people with a better right to rule, like for example Daenerys herself in her own opinion.
add a comment |
I don't know whether the statements by Daenerys and others in the televison series Game of Thrones are based on statements in the novel series A Song of Ice and Fire that Cersei is a tyrant. I don't know which writer(s) are responsible for those statements and what they meant by them.
But it is possible that the writer or writers who describe Cersei as a tyrant might be aware of the history of the word tyrant.
The English noun tyrant appears in Middle English use, via Old French, from the 1290s. The word derives from Latin tyrannus, meaning "illegitimate ruler", and this in turn from the Greek τύραννος tyrannos "monarch, ruler of a polis"; tyrannos in its turn has a Pre-Greek origin, perhaps from Lydian.[6][7] The final -t arises in Old French by association with the present participles in -ant.[8]
"The word 'tyranny' is used with many meanings, not only by the Greeks, but throughout the tradition of the great books."[9] The Oxford English Dictionary offers alternative definitions: a ruler, an illegitimate ruler (a usurper), an absolute ruler (despot) or an oppressive, unjust or cruel ruler. The term is usually applied to vicious autocrats who achieve their goals by unjust and harsh means. The definition of a tyrant is cursed by subjectivity. Oppression, injustice and cruelty do not have standardized measurements or thresholds.
in ancient Greece, tyrants were influential opportunists that came to power by securing the support of different factions of a deme. The word tyrannos, possibly pre-Greek, Pelasgian or eastern in origin,[16] then carried no ethical censure; it simply referred to anyone, good or bad, who obtained executive power in a polis by unconventional means. Support for the tyrants came from the growing middle class and from the peasants who had no land or were in debt to the wealthy landowners. It is true that they had no legal right to rule, but the people preferred them over kings or the aristocracy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrant1
So by the original Greek definition, the leaders of the French Revolution were tyrants, no matter how good or how evil one thinks that they were. And the founding fathers of the USA were tyrants by that definition.
In late antiquity the word tyrant meant an Roman usurper who claimed to be emperor but didn't succeed enough to go on the lists of emperors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_usurper2
For example, the reign of Gallienus (260-268) was full of attempts to usurp the throne, though the claim that there were thirty tyrants during his reign is a bit exaggerated.
Famous successful Roman usurpers or tyrants by that definition include Vespasian, Septimius Severus, Diocletian, St. Constantine I the Great (the first Christian emperor) etc.
Roman usurpers or tyrants in Britain or associated with Britain included Carausius (286-292, Allectus (293-296), Magnentius (350-353), Magnus Maximus (383-388), Marcus (406-407), Gratian (407), and Constantine III (407-411). It is no wonder that Gildas writing sometime about 480 to 580 wrote that Britain was a province fertile in tyrants. Gildas also described the invitation to the Saxon mercenaries as coming from the entire council and "the proud tyrant" implying that there was at least one self proclaimed emperor in post Roman Britain. Procopius also wrote that since Constantine III to his own time Britain had been ruled by tyrants, implying that there was a whole line of emperors in post Roman Britain.
So it seems possible that when Daenerys said Cersei was a tyrant, she didn't necessarily mean that Cersei ruled in a harsh and cruel manner, but possibly meant that Cersei had illegally usurped the rule from people with a better right to rule, like for example Daenerys herself in her own opinion.
add a comment |
I don't know whether the statements by Daenerys and others in the televison series Game of Thrones are based on statements in the novel series A Song of Ice and Fire that Cersei is a tyrant. I don't know which writer(s) are responsible for those statements and what they meant by them.
But it is possible that the writer or writers who describe Cersei as a tyrant might be aware of the history of the word tyrant.
The English noun tyrant appears in Middle English use, via Old French, from the 1290s. The word derives from Latin tyrannus, meaning "illegitimate ruler", and this in turn from the Greek τύραννος tyrannos "monarch, ruler of a polis"; tyrannos in its turn has a Pre-Greek origin, perhaps from Lydian.[6][7] The final -t arises in Old French by association with the present participles in -ant.[8]
"The word 'tyranny' is used with many meanings, not only by the Greeks, but throughout the tradition of the great books."[9] The Oxford English Dictionary offers alternative definitions: a ruler, an illegitimate ruler (a usurper), an absolute ruler (despot) or an oppressive, unjust or cruel ruler. The term is usually applied to vicious autocrats who achieve their goals by unjust and harsh means. The definition of a tyrant is cursed by subjectivity. Oppression, injustice and cruelty do not have standardized measurements or thresholds.
in ancient Greece, tyrants were influential opportunists that came to power by securing the support of different factions of a deme. The word tyrannos, possibly pre-Greek, Pelasgian or eastern in origin,[16] then carried no ethical censure; it simply referred to anyone, good or bad, who obtained executive power in a polis by unconventional means. Support for the tyrants came from the growing middle class and from the peasants who had no land or were in debt to the wealthy landowners. It is true that they had no legal right to rule, but the people preferred them over kings or the aristocracy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrant1
So by the original Greek definition, the leaders of the French Revolution were tyrants, no matter how good or how evil one thinks that they were. And the founding fathers of the USA were tyrants by that definition.
In late antiquity the word tyrant meant an Roman usurper who claimed to be emperor but didn't succeed enough to go on the lists of emperors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_usurper2
For example, the reign of Gallienus (260-268) was full of attempts to usurp the throne, though the claim that there were thirty tyrants during his reign is a bit exaggerated.
Famous successful Roman usurpers or tyrants by that definition include Vespasian, Septimius Severus, Diocletian, St. Constantine I the Great (the first Christian emperor) etc.
Roman usurpers or tyrants in Britain or associated with Britain included Carausius (286-292, Allectus (293-296), Magnentius (350-353), Magnus Maximus (383-388), Marcus (406-407), Gratian (407), and Constantine III (407-411). It is no wonder that Gildas writing sometime about 480 to 580 wrote that Britain was a province fertile in tyrants. Gildas also described the invitation to the Saxon mercenaries as coming from the entire council and "the proud tyrant" implying that there was at least one self proclaimed emperor in post Roman Britain. Procopius also wrote that since Constantine III to his own time Britain had been ruled by tyrants, implying that there was a whole line of emperors in post Roman Britain.
So it seems possible that when Daenerys said Cersei was a tyrant, she didn't necessarily mean that Cersei ruled in a harsh and cruel manner, but possibly meant that Cersei had illegally usurped the rule from people with a better right to rule, like for example Daenerys herself in her own opinion.
I don't know whether the statements by Daenerys and others in the televison series Game of Thrones are based on statements in the novel series A Song of Ice and Fire that Cersei is a tyrant. I don't know which writer(s) are responsible for those statements and what they meant by them.
But it is possible that the writer or writers who describe Cersei as a tyrant might be aware of the history of the word tyrant.
The English noun tyrant appears in Middle English use, via Old French, from the 1290s. The word derives from Latin tyrannus, meaning "illegitimate ruler", and this in turn from the Greek τύραννος tyrannos "monarch, ruler of a polis"; tyrannos in its turn has a Pre-Greek origin, perhaps from Lydian.[6][7] The final -t arises in Old French by association with the present participles in -ant.[8]
"The word 'tyranny' is used with many meanings, not only by the Greeks, but throughout the tradition of the great books."[9] The Oxford English Dictionary offers alternative definitions: a ruler, an illegitimate ruler (a usurper), an absolute ruler (despot) or an oppressive, unjust or cruel ruler. The term is usually applied to vicious autocrats who achieve their goals by unjust and harsh means. The definition of a tyrant is cursed by subjectivity. Oppression, injustice and cruelty do not have standardized measurements or thresholds.
in ancient Greece, tyrants were influential opportunists that came to power by securing the support of different factions of a deme. The word tyrannos, possibly pre-Greek, Pelasgian or eastern in origin,[16] then carried no ethical censure; it simply referred to anyone, good or bad, who obtained executive power in a polis by unconventional means. Support for the tyrants came from the growing middle class and from the peasants who had no land or were in debt to the wealthy landowners. It is true that they had no legal right to rule, but the people preferred them over kings or the aristocracy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrant1
So by the original Greek definition, the leaders of the French Revolution were tyrants, no matter how good or how evil one thinks that they were. And the founding fathers of the USA were tyrants by that definition.
In late antiquity the word tyrant meant an Roman usurper who claimed to be emperor but didn't succeed enough to go on the lists of emperors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_usurper2
For example, the reign of Gallienus (260-268) was full of attempts to usurp the throne, though the claim that there were thirty tyrants during his reign is a bit exaggerated.
Famous successful Roman usurpers or tyrants by that definition include Vespasian, Septimius Severus, Diocletian, St. Constantine I the Great (the first Christian emperor) etc.
Roman usurpers or tyrants in Britain or associated with Britain included Carausius (286-292, Allectus (293-296), Magnentius (350-353), Magnus Maximus (383-388), Marcus (406-407), Gratian (407), and Constantine III (407-411). It is no wonder that Gildas writing sometime about 480 to 580 wrote that Britain was a province fertile in tyrants. Gildas also described the invitation to the Saxon mercenaries as coming from the entire council and "the proud tyrant" implying that there was at least one self proclaimed emperor in post Roman Britain. Procopius also wrote that since Constantine III to his own time Britain had been ruled by tyrants, implying that there was a whole line of emperors in post Roman Britain.
So it seems possible that when Daenerys said Cersei was a tyrant, she didn't necessarily mean that Cersei ruled in a harsh and cruel manner, but possibly meant that Cersei had illegally usurped the rule from people with a better right to rule, like for example Daenerys herself in her own opinion.
answered May 15 at 20:22
M. A. GoldingM. A. Golding
15.4k12661
15.4k12661
add a comment |
add a comment |
Google dictionary gives three definitions for the word "tyrant":
- a cruel and oppressive ruler.
- a person exercising power or control in a cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary way.
- a ruler who seized absolute power without legal right.
(emphasis mine.)
I believe the latter definition, though less well known nowadays, is the original meaning of the word, and very probably what Daenerys means - although the fact that the word has also become associated with cruelty and oppression is politically useful so may have also influenced her choice of words. Still, if challenged to justify the label, she would just have to point to the original definition.
She also killed her husband Robert Baratheon. Not to mention, she didn't respect the will of Robert.
– I Love You 3000
May 15 at 20:31
add a comment |
Google dictionary gives three definitions for the word "tyrant":
- a cruel and oppressive ruler.
- a person exercising power or control in a cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary way.
- a ruler who seized absolute power without legal right.
(emphasis mine.)
I believe the latter definition, though less well known nowadays, is the original meaning of the word, and very probably what Daenerys means - although the fact that the word has also become associated with cruelty and oppression is politically useful so may have also influenced her choice of words. Still, if challenged to justify the label, she would just have to point to the original definition.
She also killed her husband Robert Baratheon. Not to mention, she didn't respect the will of Robert.
– I Love You 3000
May 15 at 20:31
add a comment |
Google dictionary gives three definitions for the word "tyrant":
- a cruel and oppressive ruler.
- a person exercising power or control in a cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary way.
- a ruler who seized absolute power without legal right.
(emphasis mine.)
I believe the latter definition, though less well known nowadays, is the original meaning of the word, and very probably what Daenerys means - although the fact that the word has also become associated with cruelty and oppression is politically useful so may have also influenced her choice of words. Still, if challenged to justify the label, she would just have to point to the original definition.
Google dictionary gives three definitions for the word "tyrant":
- a cruel and oppressive ruler.
- a person exercising power or control in a cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary way.
- a ruler who seized absolute power without legal right.
(emphasis mine.)
I believe the latter definition, though less well known nowadays, is the original meaning of the word, and very probably what Daenerys means - although the fact that the word has also become associated with cruelty and oppression is politically useful so may have also influenced her choice of words. Still, if challenged to justify the label, she would just have to point to the original definition.
answered May 15 at 19:40
Harry JohnstonHarry Johnston
14.1k23570
14.1k23570
She also killed her husband Robert Baratheon. Not to mention, she didn't respect the will of Robert.
– I Love You 3000
May 15 at 20:31
add a comment |
She also killed her husband Robert Baratheon. Not to mention, she didn't respect the will of Robert.
– I Love You 3000
May 15 at 20:31
She also killed her husband Robert Baratheon. Not to mention, she didn't respect the will of Robert.
– I Love You 3000
May 15 at 20:31
She also killed her husband Robert Baratheon. Not to mention, she didn't respect the will of Robert.
– I Love You 3000
May 15 at 20:31
add a comment |
lukas84 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
lukas84 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
lukas84 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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3
War is expensive. Money have to come from somewhere. Food has to be taken from someone else. Starvation and taxes may be enought to qualify for the lower tier of tyrany. Cut few heads, burn a Church or two and you start to have sothing solid.
– xdtTransform
May 15 at 11:22
1
@xdtTransform FWIW the money for the war mostly came from the Iron Bank but I'm sure she also raised taxes.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 11:23
17
"Then she has been using the people in King's Landing has human shields; but again, she is not harming them directly." There is a reason this is a war-crime.
– JAD
May 15 at 11:24
@TheLethalCarrot, Lannester is almost bankrupt. The realm is basically the only ressource left.
– xdtTransform
May 15 at 11:24
@xdtTransform I know, the Iron Bank loaned her the money in Season 7, that's my point, that's how she could afford the GC.
– TheLethalCarrot
May 15 at 11:25