PWM 1Hz on solid state relayConfusion with TRIAC firing and zero crossing pointDo I need zero-crossing detection for controlling a heater?Using AC current to trigger TriacCan pwm pulse damage High Side Solid State relay IC ,driving Bulbs as loadDoes low frequency PWM create reactive power in a transformer?What are some problems with running a heating element in PWM mode?Switching frequency of a solid state relay?Solid-state lightingPWM 1HZ PIC18F14K50Solid state circuit breakersLight bulbs are blinking when controlling powerful heater with PWM via SSRCan a Solid-State Relay Control AC Powered Fan Speed Via PWMAC MOSFET switching without any diodes? [Low-Cost AC Solid-State Relay With MOSFETs]

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PWM 1Hz on solid state relay


Confusion with TRIAC firing and zero crossing pointDo I need zero-crossing detection for controlling a heater?Using AC current to trigger TriacCan pwm pulse damage High Side Solid State relay IC ,driving Bulbs as loadDoes low frequency PWM create reactive power in a transformer?What are some problems with running a heating element in PWM mode?Switching frequency of a solid state relay?Solid-state lightingPWM 1HZ PIC18F14K50Solid state circuit breakersLight bulbs are blinking when controlling powerful heater with PWM via SSRCan a Solid-State Relay Control AC Powered Fan Speed Via PWMAC MOSFET switching without any diodes? [Low-Cost AC Solid-State Relay With MOSFETs]






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








5












$begingroup$


I'm about to build a pid heating controller with a 1kW heater and a solid state relay.



The ESP8266 can go down to 1Hz pwm frequency.



So hopefully I can vary the number of active cycles per second, but turning it on and off every second.



Would it create more wear and heat on the solid state relay, or should I do manual pwm over say 10 seconds?



Any concerns about switching noise can be discarded, it is only to be heard by the tomatos at night, and I don't think they mind.



SSR-50 DA
Edit: The specs say it is indeed a zero-crossing SSR, with a voltage drop of 1V. 1Kw at 230V gives approx 5A, I wonder if a heatsink is required for the 5W. It is only temporary for around a week, and will be lying on a concrete slab.



edit2
The ESP8266 appearently can't do 1Hz pwm; I have to go manually. However, the relay does seem to be able to do quite fast (i.e. a few cycles) switching.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    What do you mean by switching noise? We are really talking about a solid state relay, right?
    $endgroup$
    – jusaca
    May 2 at 15:15










  • $begingroup$
    I've tried pwm on a fan motor, and the frequency was audible until I reduced it to 50Hz or so to be hidden in mechanical noise.
    $endgroup$
    – Lenne
    May 2 at 15:30










  • $begingroup$
    What's the time constant of your physical system? If it's on the order of 10-20 seconds, a 1Hz PWM would be OK, and there's be 120 zero-crossings worth of resolution in each update cycle for the PID to work with. If the system takes minutes to respond, you should use a slower cycle (1/10-1/20 of the time constant) & have more resolution for your PID. E.g., if it takes 10 minutes to come 63% to temperature, measure and update the PID every 30 seconds and apply your %duty cycle to the 0.0333Hz / 30 sec / 30*120=3600 zero-crossings. Sample too fast & the ID terms of the PID will chase noise.
    $endgroup$
    – Dave X
    May 2 at 19:28

















5












$begingroup$


I'm about to build a pid heating controller with a 1kW heater and a solid state relay.



The ESP8266 can go down to 1Hz pwm frequency.



So hopefully I can vary the number of active cycles per second, but turning it on and off every second.



Would it create more wear and heat on the solid state relay, or should I do manual pwm over say 10 seconds?



Any concerns about switching noise can be discarded, it is only to be heard by the tomatos at night, and I don't think they mind.



SSR-50 DA
Edit: The specs say it is indeed a zero-crossing SSR, with a voltage drop of 1V. 1Kw at 230V gives approx 5A, I wonder if a heatsink is required for the 5W. It is only temporary for around a week, and will be lying on a concrete slab.



edit2
The ESP8266 appearently can't do 1Hz pwm; I have to go manually. However, the relay does seem to be able to do quite fast (i.e. a few cycles) switching.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    What do you mean by switching noise? We are really talking about a solid state relay, right?
    $endgroup$
    – jusaca
    May 2 at 15:15










  • $begingroup$
    I've tried pwm on a fan motor, and the frequency was audible until I reduced it to 50Hz or so to be hidden in mechanical noise.
    $endgroup$
    – Lenne
    May 2 at 15:30










  • $begingroup$
    What's the time constant of your physical system? If it's on the order of 10-20 seconds, a 1Hz PWM would be OK, and there's be 120 zero-crossings worth of resolution in each update cycle for the PID to work with. If the system takes minutes to respond, you should use a slower cycle (1/10-1/20 of the time constant) & have more resolution for your PID. E.g., if it takes 10 minutes to come 63% to temperature, measure and update the PID every 30 seconds and apply your %duty cycle to the 0.0333Hz / 30 sec / 30*120=3600 zero-crossings. Sample too fast & the ID terms of the PID will chase noise.
    $endgroup$
    – Dave X
    May 2 at 19:28













5












5








5





$begingroup$


I'm about to build a pid heating controller with a 1kW heater and a solid state relay.



The ESP8266 can go down to 1Hz pwm frequency.



So hopefully I can vary the number of active cycles per second, but turning it on and off every second.



Would it create more wear and heat on the solid state relay, or should I do manual pwm over say 10 seconds?



Any concerns about switching noise can be discarded, it is only to be heard by the tomatos at night, and I don't think they mind.



SSR-50 DA
Edit: The specs say it is indeed a zero-crossing SSR, with a voltage drop of 1V. 1Kw at 230V gives approx 5A, I wonder if a heatsink is required for the 5W. It is only temporary for around a week, and will be lying on a concrete slab.



edit2
The ESP8266 appearently can't do 1Hz pwm; I have to go manually. However, the relay does seem to be able to do quite fast (i.e. a few cycles) switching.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




I'm about to build a pid heating controller with a 1kW heater and a solid state relay.



The ESP8266 can go down to 1Hz pwm frequency.



So hopefully I can vary the number of active cycles per second, but turning it on and off every second.



Would it create more wear and heat on the solid state relay, or should I do manual pwm over say 10 seconds?



Any concerns about switching noise can be discarded, it is only to be heard by the tomatos at night, and I don't think they mind.



SSR-50 DA
Edit: The specs say it is indeed a zero-crossing SSR, with a voltage drop of 1V. 1Kw at 230V gives approx 5A, I wonder if a heatsink is required for the 5W. It is only temporary for around a week, and will be lying on a concrete slab.



edit2
The ESP8266 appearently can't do 1Hz pwm; I have to go manually. However, the relay does seem to be able to do quite fast (i.e. a few cycles) switching.







pwm power-electronics






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited May 2 at 17:14







Lenne

















asked May 2 at 15:07









LenneLenne

1488




1488











  • $begingroup$
    What do you mean by switching noise? We are really talking about a solid state relay, right?
    $endgroup$
    – jusaca
    May 2 at 15:15










  • $begingroup$
    I've tried pwm on a fan motor, and the frequency was audible until I reduced it to 50Hz or so to be hidden in mechanical noise.
    $endgroup$
    – Lenne
    May 2 at 15:30










  • $begingroup$
    What's the time constant of your physical system? If it's on the order of 10-20 seconds, a 1Hz PWM would be OK, and there's be 120 zero-crossings worth of resolution in each update cycle for the PID to work with. If the system takes minutes to respond, you should use a slower cycle (1/10-1/20 of the time constant) & have more resolution for your PID. E.g., if it takes 10 minutes to come 63% to temperature, measure and update the PID every 30 seconds and apply your %duty cycle to the 0.0333Hz / 30 sec / 30*120=3600 zero-crossings. Sample too fast & the ID terms of the PID will chase noise.
    $endgroup$
    – Dave X
    May 2 at 19:28
















  • $begingroup$
    What do you mean by switching noise? We are really talking about a solid state relay, right?
    $endgroup$
    – jusaca
    May 2 at 15:15










  • $begingroup$
    I've tried pwm on a fan motor, and the frequency was audible until I reduced it to 50Hz or so to be hidden in mechanical noise.
    $endgroup$
    – Lenne
    May 2 at 15:30










  • $begingroup$
    What's the time constant of your physical system? If it's on the order of 10-20 seconds, a 1Hz PWM would be OK, and there's be 120 zero-crossings worth of resolution in each update cycle for the PID to work with. If the system takes minutes to respond, you should use a slower cycle (1/10-1/20 of the time constant) & have more resolution for your PID. E.g., if it takes 10 minutes to come 63% to temperature, measure and update the PID every 30 seconds and apply your %duty cycle to the 0.0333Hz / 30 sec / 30*120=3600 zero-crossings. Sample too fast & the ID terms of the PID will chase noise.
    $endgroup$
    – Dave X
    May 2 at 19:28















$begingroup$
What do you mean by switching noise? We are really talking about a solid state relay, right?
$endgroup$
– jusaca
May 2 at 15:15




$begingroup$
What do you mean by switching noise? We are really talking about a solid state relay, right?
$endgroup$
– jusaca
May 2 at 15:15












$begingroup$
I've tried pwm on a fan motor, and the frequency was audible until I reduced it to 50Hz or so to be hidden in mechanical noise.
$endgroup$
– Lenne
May 2 at 15:30




$begingroup$
I've tried pwm on a fan motor, and the frequency was audible until I reduced it to 50Hz or so to be hidden in mechanical noise.
$endgroup$
– Lenne
May 2 at 15:30












$begingroup$
What's the time constant of your physical system? If it's on the order of 10-20 seconds, a 1Hz PWM would be OK, and there's be 120 zero-crossings worth of resolution in each update cycle for the PID to work with. If the system takes minutes to respond, you should use a slower cycle (1/10-1/20 of the time constant) & have more resolution for your PID. E.g., if it takes 10 minutes to come 63% to temperature, measure and update the PID every 30 seconds and apply your %duty cycle to the 0.0333Hz / 30 sec / 30*120=3600 zero-crossings. Sample too fast & the ID terms of the PID will chase noise.
$endgroup$
– Dave X
May 2 at 19:28




$begingroup$
What's the time constant of your physical system? If it's on the order of 10-20 seconds, a 1Hz PWM would be OK, and there's be 120 zero-crossings worth of resolution in each update cycle for the PID to work with. If the system takes minutes to respond, you should use a slower cycle (1/10-1/20 of the time constant) & have more resolution for your PID. E.g., if it takes 10 minutes to come 63% to temperature, measure and update the PID every 30 seconds and apply your %duty cycle to the 0.0333Hz / 30 sec / 30*120=3600 zero-crossings. Sample too fast & the ID terms of the PID will chase noise.
$endgroup$
– Dave X
May 2 at 19:28










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















9












$begingroup$


Would it create more wear and heat on the solid state relay, or should I do manual pwm over say 10 seconds?




No. The SSR switches on every mains half-cycle anyway.



For this type of application a zero-cross SSR is a good idea to reduce mains interference.



enter image description here



Figure 1. Adjusting duty cycle using a zero-cross SSR. Source: LEDnique.



For further reading see my answers to:




  • Using AC current to trigger Triac explains the internal working of a zero-cross SSR.


  • Confusion with TRIAC firing and zero crossing point.


Counterfeit Fotek SSRs



It appears that you are considering Fotek SSRs. Read this first:
UL warns of solid state relay with counterfeit UL Recognition Mark (Release 13PN-52). The one you have pictured is counterfeit.



See also Big Clive's Teardown of an eBay 25A Solid State Relay (SSR).






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    The SSR pictured is a 50 A model, while the UL warning applies to 25 A models.
    $endgroup$
    – user71659
    May 2 at 18:52










  • $begingroup$
    Look at the label. It's the counterfeit layout and the moulding has the chamferless square inner corner in the bottom right, as far as I can tell. It's easy to change a label. The funny thing is that they can't copy the label properly.
    $endgroup$
    – Transistor
    May 2 at 19:29






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Doesn't mean anything. The issue may be the counterfeiters copied the 50 A model or housing and stuck it on all their fakes. Note how UL says the mark is counterfeit. One issue is unscrupulous manufacturers make changes without proper UL approval. For example, they figure they can rebadge a 50 A model for 25 A via a simple nameplate derate. The issue is that unless UL is notified (with the appropriate fees paid) they can't conduct surveillance on the 25 A model.
    $endgroup$
    – user71659
    May 2 at 20:02










  • $begingroup$
    @user71659 I agree that the label alone doesn't mean it's fake, but these SSRs are broadly known to have clones with largely under-specced components. Here is an SSR-40 made using a 4A triac. If the OP bought their 50A part for under $5, they should be aware that this likely applies to them as well.
    $endgroup$
    – Dmitry Grigoryev
    2 days ago


















5












$begingroup$

You don't really have wear and tear on an SSR, and the heat is going to be the same for the same heater output, whether on 1s or 10s PWM.



While a 1kW heater is going to integrate a 10s PWM fairly well, you will get less temperature variation on the heater with a 1s PWM, which might translate to slightly less thermal expansion/contraction wear and tear on the heater itself.



There will be little difference in either 1s or 10s as far as your tomatoes are concerned.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    It depends on the thermal mass if a 1kW heater is going to integrate a 10s PWM fairly well. There are small and fast heaters as well as large and slow heaters. Water heating tends to be slower than air heating.
    $endgroup$
    – Uwe
    2 days ago


















2












$begingroup$


Can I vary the number of active cycles per second, using a PWM signal driving an SSR.




You can, but there are some problems and considerations to using a PWM signal to drive an SSR.



There are two SSR types, Zero Crossing and Phase controlled, one explanation here.



With a random phase SSR you can run your PWM control in a couple of ways:



  1. Your PWM typically runs at the mains frequency (50 or 60 Hz) and provides 0-100 power in any given full cycle. This configuration tends to produce the most noise (switching transients) since the switching point is relatively stable in each half cycle. High step power resolution is achievable.

enter image description here



  1. You can run the PWM at much less than the mains frequency, and this will reduce the amount of noise created since the PWM is much longer than 1 cycle and the switching point (turn on) will typically be more random (no synch between SSR drive and the mains).

enter image description here



If you are using a zero crossing SSR then your PWM can run at any frequency, but the power supplied to your heater is in complete half cycles (which can be a serious problem).



  1. If your PWM frequency is a factor of 10 slower than your mains frequency then there are a couple of effects. Firstly you can only increase or decrease the power by discrete half cycles, so in this case the resolution of your power control is impacted. Secondly you can have an odd number of half cycles at many points in your power control values. This potential for an odd number of half cycles is a problem at higher load powers since it implies a DC current through the load (and therefore the mains wiring). Most utilities have rules about the amount of DC that can flow through your street transformer. Too high a DC value may damage the transformer.

enter image description here



While you are only using a 1kW heater element it is worth understanding the implications.



This question also hinted at the problems.



Recommendations:



  1. DO NOT use zero crossing SSRs with PWM control

  2. If you want to use Zero crossing SSR's to minimize electrical noise implement cycle counting instead of a simple PWM.

  3. Use Phase controlled SSR's if you want to use a simple PWM.

  4. Always use the lowest PWM frequency (most AC cycles) that meets your PID requirements and set the PWM frequency to an odd multiple of the mains to ensure random switching on the first half cycle and lower the noise generated.

Before anyone brings it up, NEVER use Zero crossing SSRs with inductive loads such as a transformers or fans. See here.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    1












    $begingroup$

    Typically a heater only has a comparator with hysteresis and a relay.



    This SSR Triac has zero voltage turn, zero current shutdown.



    However, there may be large thermal gradients from sun exposure or height variation so a slow speed fan may be prudent to reduce time delays between heat cycles and reduce temperature variance. So predicting small error corrections with burst control might be possible with the fan possibly staying on low speed when the heater is off or independently controlled by heater.



    If you simply have a low noise comparator with setpoint temp and 1 or more feedback temp. inputs, you might not have any better performance than this. If you find there is control hysteresis and/or delay and the heaters constantly cycle on and off.



    If you find that infinite Proportional gain using a comparator does not give you an acceptable temperature error, then define the error and figure out the cause so a better solution can be made.



    Gas Furnace digital controllers usually have at least a 0.5 deg C hysteresis. Electric baseboard heaters may be similar due to bi-metallic switch characteristics. If your sensor is stable and suitably located for average and not too far away, then the comparator method will be good.



    Back in my Univ-days in the early 70's, I recall the classes had steam powered radiator heaters with a PID control because they were powerful enough to create large temperature swings ( if you did big adjustments to dial) However a 1kW heater is not that powerful.



    Conclusion



    • I suggest all you need is On/Off control.

    • the fan power could be self temp regulated or have 2 speeds Heater ON/OFF

    • the sensor location for room average and moderate proximity to heat is important to achieve good control.





    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













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      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes








      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      9












      $begingroup$


      Would it create more wear and heat on the solid state relay, or should I do manual pwm over say 10 seconds?




      No. The SSR switches on every mains half-cycle anyway.



      For this type of application a zero-cross SSR is a good idea to reduce mains interference.



      enter image description here



      Figure 1. Adjusting duty cycle using a zero-cross SSR. Source: LEDnique.



      For further reading see my answers to:




      • Using AC current to trigger Triac explains the internal working of a zero-cross SSR.


      • Confusion with TRIAC firing and zero crossing point.


      Counterfeit Fotek SSRs



      It appears that you are considering Fotek SSRs. Read this first:
      UL warns of solid state relay with counterfeit UL Recognition Mark (Release 13PN-52). The one you have pictured is counterfeit.



      See also Big Clive's Teardown of an eBay 25A Solid State Relay (SSR).






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        The SSR pictured is a 50 A model, while the UL warning applies to 25 A models.
        $endgroup$
        – user71659
        May 2 at 18:52










      • $begingroup$
        Look at the label. It's the counterfeit layout and the moulding has the chamferless square inner corner in the bottom right, as far as I can tell. It's easy to change a label. The funny thing is that they can't copy the label properly.
        $endgroup$
        – Transistor
        May 2 at 19:29






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Doesn't mean anything. The issue may be the counterfeiters copied the 50 A model or housing and stuck it on all their fakes. Note how UL says the mark is counterfeit. One issue is unscrupulous manufacturers make changes without proper UL approval. For example, they figure they can rebadge a 50 A model for 25 A via a simple nameplate derate. The issue is that unless UL is notified (with the appropriate fees paid) they can't conduct surveillance on the 25 A model.
        $endgroup$
        – user71659
        May 2 at 20:02










      • $begingroup$
        @user71659 I agree that the label alone doesn't mean it's fake, but these SSRs are broadly known to have clones with largely under-specced components. Here is an SSR-40 made using a 4A triac. If the OP bought their 50A part for under $5, they should be aware that this likely applies to them as well.
        $endgroup$
        – Dmitry Grigoryev
        2 days ago















      9












      $begingroup$


      Would it create more wear and heat on the solid state relay, or should I do manual pwm over say 10 seconds?




      No. The SSR switches on every mains half-cycle anyway.



      For this type of application a zero-cross SSR is a good idea to reduce mains interference.



      enter image description here



      Figure 1. Adjusting duty cycle using a zero-cross SSR. Source: LEDnique.



      For further reading see my answers to:




      • Using AC current to trigger Triac explains the internal working of a zero-cross SSR.


      • Confusion with TRIAC firing and zero crossing point.


      Counterfeit Fotek SSRs



      It appears that you are considering Fotek SSRs. Read this first:
      UL warns of solid state relay with counterfeit UL Recognition Mark (Release 13PN-52). The one you have pictured is counterfeit.



      See also Big Clive's Teardown of an eBay 25A Solid State Relay (SSR).






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        The SSR pictured is a 50 A model, while the UL warning applies to 25 A models.
        $endgroup$
        – user71659
        May 2 at 18:52










      • $begingroup$
        Look at the label. It's the counterfeit layout and the moulding has the chamferless square inner corner in the bottom right, as far as I can tell. It's easy to change a label. The funny thing is that they can't copy the label properly.
        $endgroup$
        – Transistor
        May 2 at 19:29






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Doesn't mean anything. The issue may be the counterfeiters copied the 50 A model or housing and stuck it on all their fakes. Note how UL says the mark is counterfeit. One issue is unscrupulous manufacturers make changes without proper UL approval. For example, they figure they can rebadge a 50 A model for 25 A via a simple nameplate derate. The issue is that unless UL is notified (with the appropriate fees paid) they can't conduct surveillance on the 25 A model.
        $endgroup$
        – user71659
        May 2 at 20:02










      • $begingroup$
        @user71659 I agree that the label alone doesn't mean it's fake, but these SSRs are broadly known to have clones with largely under-specced components. Here is an SSR-40 made using a 4A triac. If the OP bought their 50A part for under $5, they should be aware that this likely applies to them as well.
        $endgroup$
        – Dmitry Grigoryev
        2 days ago













      9












      9








      9





      $begingroup$


      Would it create more wear and heat on the solid state relay, or should I do manual pwm over say 10 seconds?




      No. The SSR switches on every mains half-cycle anyway.



      For this type of application a zero-cross SSR is a good idea to reduce mains interference.



      enter image description here



      Figure 1. Adjusting duty cycle using a zero-cross SSR. Source: LEDnique.



      For further reading see my answers to:




      • Using AC current to trigger Triac explains the internal working of a zero-cross SSR.


      • Confusion with TRIAC firing and zero crossing point.


      Counterfeit Fotek SSRs



      It appears that you are considering Fotek SSRs. Read this first:
      UL warns of solid state relay with counterfeit UL Recognition Mark (Release 13PN-52). The one you have pictured is counterfeit.



      See also Big Clive's Teardown of an eBay 25A Solid State Relay (SSR).






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$




      Would it create more wear and heat on the solid state relay, or should I do manual pwm over say 10 seconds?




      No. The SSR switches on every mains half-cycle anyway.



      For this type of application a zero-cross SSR is a good idea to reduce mains interference.



      enter image description here



      Figure 1. Adjusting duty cycle using a zero-cross SSR. Source: LEDnique.



      For further reading see my answers to:




      • Using AC current to trigger Triac explains the internal working of a zero-cross SSR.


      • Confusion with TRIAC firing and zero crossing point.


      Counterfeit Fotek SSRs



      It appears that you are considering Fotek SSRs. Read this first:
      UL warns of solid state relay with counterfeit UL Recognition Mark (Release 13PN-52). The one you have pictured is counterfeit.



      See also Big Clive's Teardown of an eBay 25A Solid State Relay (SSR).







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited May 2 at 17:14

























      answered May 2 at 15:14









      TransistorTransistor

      90.8k788195




      90.8k788195











      • $begingroup$
        The SSR pictured is a 50 A model, while the UL warning applies to 25 A models.
        $endgroup$
        – user71659
        May 2 at 18:52










      • $begingroup$
        Look at the label. It's the counterfeit layout and the moulding has the chamferless square inner corner in the bottom right, as far as I can tell. It's easy to change a label. The funny thing is that they can't copy the label properly.
        $endgroup$
        – Transistor
        May 2 at 19:29






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Doesn't mean anything. The issue may be the counterfeiters copied the 50 A model or housing and stuck it on all their fakes. Note how UL says the mark is counterfeit. One issue is unscrupulous manufacturers make changes without proper UL approval. For example, they figure they can rebadge a 50 A model for 25 A via a simple nameplate derate. The issue is that unless UL is notified (with the appropriate fees paid) they can't conduct surveillance on the 25 A model.
        $endgroup$
        – user71659
        May 2 at 20:02










      • $begingroup$
        @user71659 I agree that the label alone doesn't mean it's fake, but these SSRs are broadly known to have clones with largely under-specced components. Here is an SSR-40 made using a 4A triac. If the OP bought their 50A part for under $5, they should be aware that this likely applies to them as well.
        $endgroup$
        – Dmitry Grigoryev
        2 days ago
















      • $begingroup$
        The SSR pictured is a 50 A model, while the UL warning applies to 25 A models.
        $endgroup$
        – user71659
        May 2 at 18:52










      • $begingroup$
        Look at the label. It's the counterfeit layout and the moulding has the chamferless square inner corner in the bottom right, as far as I can tell. It's easy to change a label. The funny thing is that they can't copy the label properly.
        $endgroup$
        – Transistor
        May 2 at 19:29






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Doesn't mean anything. The issue may be the counterfeiters copied the 50 A model or housing and stuck it on all their fakes. Note how UL says the mark is counterfeit. One issue is unscrupulous manufacturers make changes without proper UL approval. For example, they figure they can rebadge a 50 A model for 25 A via a simple nameplate derate. The issue is that unless UL is notified (with the appropriate fees paid) they can't conduct surveillance on the 25 A model.
        $endgroup$
        – user71659
        May 2 at 20:02










      • $begingroup$
        @user71659 I agree that the label alone doesn't mean it's fake, but these SSRs are broadly known to have clones with largely under-specced components. Here is an SSR-40 made using a 4A triac. If the OP bought their 50A part for under $5, they should be aware that this likely applies to them as well.
        $endgroup$
        – Dmitry Grigoryev
        2 days ago















      $begingroup$
      The SSR pictured is a 50 A model, while the UL warning applies to 25 A models.
      $endgroup$
      – user71659
      May 2 at 18:52




      $begingroup$
      The SSR pictured is a 50 A model, while the UL warning applies to 25 A models.
      $endgroup$
      – user71659
      May 2 at 18:52












      $begingroup$
      Look at the label. It's the counterfeit layout and the moulding has the chamferless square inner corner in the bottom right, as far as I can tell. It's easy to change a label. The funny thing is that they can't copy the label properly.
      $endgroup$
      – Transistor
      May 2 at 19:29




      $begingroup$
      Look at the label. It's the counterfeit layout and the moulding has the chamferless square inner corner in the bottom right, as far as I can tell. It's easy to change a label. The funny thing is that they can't copy the label properly.
      $endgroup$
      – Transistor
      May 2 at 19:29




      2




      2




      $begingroup$
      Doesn't mean anything. The issue may be the counterfeiters copied the 50 A model or housing and stuck it on all their fakes. Note how UL says the mark is counterfeit. One issue is unscrupulous manufacturers make changes without proper UL approval. For example, they figure they can rebadge a 50 A model for 25 A via a simple nameplate derate. The issue is that unless UL is notified (with the appropriate fees paid) they can't conduct surveillance on the 25 A model.
      $endgroup$
      – user71659
      May 2 at 20:02




      $begingroup$
      Doesn't mean anything. The issue may be the counterfeiters copied the 50 A model or housing and stuck it on all their fakes. Note how UL says the mark is counterfeit. One issue is unscrupulous manufacturers make changes without proper UL approval. For example, they figure they can rebadge a 50 A model for 25 A via a simple nameplate derate. The issue is that unless UL is notified (with the appropriate fees paid) they can't conduct surveillance on the 25 A model.
      $endgroup$
      – user71659
      May 2 at 20:02












      $begingroup$
      @user71659 I agree that the label alone doesn't mean it's fake, but these SSRs are broadly known to have clones with largely under-specced components. Here is an SSR-40 made using a 4A triac. If the OP bought their 50A part for under $5, they should be aware that this likely applies to them as well.
      $endgroup$
      – Dmitry Grigoryev
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      @user71659 I agree that the label alone doesn't mean it's fake, but these SSRs are broadly known to have clones with largely under-specced components. Here is an SSR-40 made using a 4A triac. If the OP bought their 50A part for under $5, they should be aware that this likely applies to them as well.
      $endgroup$
      – Dmitry Grigoryev
      2 days ago













      5












      $begingroup$

      You don't really have wear and tear on an SSR, and the heat is going to be the same for the same heater output, whether on 1s or 10s PWM.



      While a 1kW heater is going to integrate a 10s PWM fairly well, you will get less temperature variation on the heater with a 1s PWM, which might translate to slightly less thermal expansion/contraction wear and tear on the heater itself.



      There will be little difference in either 1s or 10s as far as your tomatoes are concerned.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        It depends on the thermal mass if a 1kW heater is going to integrate a 10s PWM fairly well. There are small and fast heaters as well as large and slow heaters. Water heating tends to be slower than air heating.
        $endgroup$
        – Uwe
        2 days ago















      5












      $begingroup$

      You don't really have wear and tear on an SSR, and the heat is going to be the same for the same heater output, whether on 1s or 10s PWM.



      While a 1kW heater is going to integrate a 10s PWM fairly well, you will get less temperature variation on the heater with a 1s PWM, which might translate to slightly less thermal expansion/contraction wear and tear on the heater itself.



      There will be little difference in either 1s or 10s as far as your tomatoes are concerned.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        It depends on the thermal mass if a 1kW heater is going to integrate a 10s PWM fairly well. There are small and fast heaters as well as large and slow heaters. Water heating tends to be slower than air heating.
        $endgroup$
        – Uwe
        2 days ago













      5












      5








      5





      $begingroup$

      You don't really have wear and tear on an SSR, and the heat is going to be the same for the same heater output, whether on 1s or 10s PWM.



      While a 1kW heater is going to integrate a 10s PWM fairly well, you will get less temperature variation on the heater with a 1s PWM, which might translate to slightly less thermal expansion/contraction wear and tear on the heater itself.



      There will be little difference in either 1s or 10s as far as your tomatoes are concerned.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      You don't really have wear and tear on an SSR, and the heat is going to be the same for the same heater output, whether on 1s or 10s PWM.



      While a 1kW heater is going to integrate a 10s PWM fairly well, you will get less temperature variation on the heater with a 1s PWM, which might translate to slightly less thermal expansion/contraction wear and tear on the heater itself.



      There will be little difference in either 1s or 10s as far as your tomatoes are concerned.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered May 2 at 15:16









      Neil_UKNeil_UK

      80k285184




      80k285184











      • $begingroup$
        It depends on the thermal mass if a 1kW heater is going to integrate a 10s PWM fairly well. There are small and fast heaters as well as large and slow heaters. Water heating tends to be slower than air heating.
        $endgroup$
        – Uwe
        2 days ago
















      • $begingroup$
        It depends on the thermal mass if a 1kW heater is going to integrate a 10s PWM fairly well. There are small and fast heaters as well as large and slow heaters. Water heating tends to be slower than air heating.
        $endgroup$
        – Uwe
        2 days ago















      $begingroup$
      It depends on the thermal mass if a 1kW heater is going to integrate a 10s PWM fairly well. There are small and fast heaters as well as large and slow heaters. Water heating tends to be slower than air heating.
      $endgroup$
      – Uwe
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      It depends on the thermal mass if a 1kW heater is going to integrate a 10s PWM fairly well. There are small and fast heaters as well as large and slow heaters. Water heating tends to be slower than air heating.
      $endgroup$
      – Uwe
      2 days ago











      2












      $begingroup$


      Can I vary the number of active cycles per second, using a PWM signal driving an SSR.




      You can, but there are some problems and considerations to using a PWM signal to drive an SSR.



      There are two SSR types, Zero Crossing and Phase controlled, one explanation here.



      With a random phase SSR you can run your PWM control in a couple of ways:



      1. Your PWM typically runs at the mains frequency (50 or 60 Hz) and provides 0-100 power in any given full cycle. This configuration tends to produce the most noise (switching transients) since the switching point is relatively stable in each half cycle. High step power resolution is achievable.

      enter image description here



      1. You can run the PWM at much less than the mains frequency, and this will reduce the amount of noise created since the PWM is much longer than 1 cycle and the switching point (turn on) will typically be more random (no synch between SSR drive and the mains).

      enter image description here



      If you are using a zero crossing SSR then your PWM can run at any frequency, but the power supplied to your heater is in complete half cycles (which can be a serious problem).



      1. If your PWM frequency is a factor of 10 slower than your mains frequency then there are a couple of effects. Firstly you can only increase or decrease the power by discrete half cycles, so in this case the resolution of your power control is impacted. Secondly you can have an odd number of half cycles at many points in your power control values. This potential for an odd number of half cycles is a problem at higher load powers since it implies a DC current through the load (and therefore the mains wiring). Most utilities have rules about the amount of DC that can flow through your street transformer. Too high a DC value may damage the transformer.

      enter image description here



      While you are only using a 1kW heater element it is worth understanding the implications.



      This question also hinted at the problems.



      Recommendations:



      1. DO NOT use zero crossing SSRs with PWM control

      2. If you want to use Zero crossing SSR's to minimize electrical noise implement cycle counting instead of a simple PWM.

      3. Use Phase controlled SSR's if you want to use a simple PWM.

      4. Always use the lowest PWM frequency (most AC cycles) that meets your PID requirements and set the PWM frequency to an odd multiple of the mains to ensure random switching on the first half cycle and lower the noise generated.

      Before anyone brings it up, NEVER use Zero crossing SSRs with inductive loads such as a transformers or fans. See here.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$

















        2












        $begingroup$


        Can I vary the number of active cycles per second, using a PWM signal driving an SSR.




        You can, but there are some problems and considerations to using a PWM signal to drive an SSR.



        There are two SSR types, Zero Crossing and Phase controlled, one explanation here.



        With a random phase SSR you can run your PWM control in a couple of ways:



        1. Your PWM typically runs at the mains frequency (50 or 60 Hz) and provides 0-100 power in any given full cycle. This configuration tends to produce the most noise (switching transients) since the switching point is relatively stable in each half cycle. High step power resolution is achievable.

        enter image description here



        1. You can run the PWM at much less than the mains frequency, and this will reduce the amount of noise created since the PWM is much longer than 1 cycle and the switching point (turn on) will typically be more random (no synch between SSR drive and the mains).

        enter image description here



        If you are using a zero crossing SSR then your PWM can run at any frequency, but the power supplied to your heater is in complete half cycles (which can be a serious problem).



        1. If your PWM frequency is a factor of 10 slower than your mains frequency then there are a couple of effects. Firstly you can only increase or decrease the power by discrete half cycles, so in this case the resolution of your power control is impacted. Secondly you can have an odd number of half cycles at many points in your power control values. This potential for an odd number of half cycles is a problem at higher load powers since it implies a DC current through the load (and therefore the mains wiring). Most utilities have rules about the amount of DC that can flow through your street transformer. Too high a DC value may damage the transformer.

        enter image description here



        While you are only using a 1kW heater element it is worth understanding the implications.



        This question also hinted at the problems.



        Recommendations:



        1. DO NOT use zero crossing SSRs with PWM control

        2. If you want to use Zero crossing SSR's to minimize electrical noise implement cycle counting instead of a simple PWM.

        3. Use Phase controlled SSR's if you want to use a simple PWM.

        4. Always use the lowest PWM frequency (most AC cycles) that meets your PID requirements and set the PWM frequency to an odd multiple of the mains to ensure random switching on the first half cycle and lower the noise generated.

        Before anyone brings it up, NEVER use Zero crossing SSRs with inductive loads such as a transformers or fans. See here.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$















          2












          2








          2





          $begingroup$


          Can I vary the number of active cycles per second, using a PWM signal driving an SSR.




          You can, but there are some problems and considerations to using a PWM signal to drive an SSR.



          There are two SSR types, Zero Crossing and Phase controlled, one explanation here.



          With a random phase SSR you can run your PWM control in a couple of ways:



          1. Your PWM typically runs at the mains frequency (50 or 60 Hz) and provides 0-100 power in any given full cycle. This configuration tends to produce the most noise (switching transients) since the switching point is relatively stable in each half cycle. High step power resolution is achievable.

          enter image description here



          1. You can run the PWM at much less than the mains frequency, and this will reduce the amount of noise created since the PWM is much longer than 1 cycle and the switching point (turn on) will typically be more random (no synch between SSR drive and the mains).

          enter image description here



          If you are using a zero crossing SSR then your PWM can run at any frequency, but the power supplied to your heater is in complete half cycles (which can be a serious problem).



          1. If your PWM frequency is a factor of 10 slower than your mains frequency then there are a couple of effects. Firstly you can only increase or decrease the power by discrete half cycles, so in this case the resolution of your power control is impacted. Secondly you can have an odd number of half cycles at many points in your power control values. This potential for an odd number of half cycles is a problem at higher load powers since it implies a DC current through the load (and therefore the mains wiring). Most utilities have rules about the amount of DC that can flow through your street transformer. Too high a DC value may damage the transformer.

          enter image description here



          While you are only using a 1kW heater element it is worth understanding the implications.



          This question also hinted at the problems.



          Recommendations:



          1. DO NOT use zero crossing SSRs with PWM control

          2. If you want to use Zero crossing SSR's to minimize electrical noise implement cycle counting instead of a simple PWM.

          3. Use Phase controlled SSR's if you want to use a simple PWM.

          4. Always use the lowest PWM frequency (most AC cycles) that meets your PID requirements and set the PWM frequency to an odd multiple of the mains to ensure random switching on the first half cycle and lower the noise generated.

          Before anyone brings it up, NEVER use Zero crossing SSRs with inductive loads such as a transformers or fans. See here.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$




          Can I vary the number of active cycles per second, using a PWM signal driving an SSR.




          You can, but there are some problems and considerations to using a PWM signal to drive an SSR.



          There are two SSR types, Zero Crossing and Phase controlled, one explanation here.



          With a random phase SSR you can run your PWM control in a couple of ways:



          1. Your PWM typically runs at the mains frequency (50 or 60 Hz) and provides 0-100 power in any given full cycle. This configuration tends to produce the most noise (switching transients) since the switching point is relatively stable in each half cycle. High step power resolution is achievable.

          enter image description here



          1. You can run the PWM at much less than the mains frequency, and this will reduce the amount of noise created since the PWM is much longer than 1 cycle and the switching point (turn on) will typically be more random (no synch between SSR drive and the mains).

          enter image description here



          If you are using a zero crossing SSR then your PWM can run at any frequency, but the power supplied to your heater is in complete half cycles (which can be a serious problem).



          1. If your PWM frequency is a factor of 10 slower than your mains frequency then there are a couple of effects. Firstly you can only increase or decrease the power by discrete half cycles, so in this case the resolution of your power control is impacted. Secondly you can have an odd number of half cycles at many points in your power control values. This potential for an odd number of half cycles is a problem at higher load powers since it implies a DC current through the load (and therefore the mains wiring). Most utilities have rules about the amount of DC that can flow through your street transformer. Too high a DC value may damage the transformer.

          enter image description here



          While you are only using a 1kW heater element it is worth understanding the implications.



          This question also hinted at the problems.



          Recommendations:



          1. DO NOT use zero crossing SSRs with PWM control

          2. If you want to use Zero crossing SSR's to minimize electrical noise implement cycle counting instead of a simple PWM.

          3. Use Phase controlled SSR's if you want to use a simple PWM.

          4. Always use the lowest PWM frequency (most AC cycles) that meets your PID requirements and set the PWM frequency to an odd multiple of the mains to ensure random switching on the first half cycle and lower the noise generated.

          Before anyone brings it up, NEVER use Zero crossing SSRs with inductive loads such as a transformers or fans. See here.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered May 2 at 17:05









          Jack CreaseyJack Creasey

          15.6k2823




          15.6k2823





















              1












              $begingroup$

              Typically a heater only has a comparator with hysteresis and a relay.



              This SSR Triac has zero voltage turn, zero current shutdown.



              However, there may be large thermal gradients from sun exposure or height variation so a slow speed fan may be prudent to reduce time delays between heat cycles and reduce temperature variance. So predicting small error corrections with burst control might be possible with the fan possibly staying on low speed when the heater is off or independently controlled by heater.



              If you simply have a low noise comparator with setpoint temp and 1 or more feedback temp. inputs, you might not have any better performance than this. If you find there is control hysteresis and/or delay and the heaters constantly cycle on and off.



              If you find that infinite Proportional gain using a comparator does not give you an acceptable temperature error, then define the error and figure out the cause so a better solution can be made.



              Gas Furnace digital controllers usually have at least a 0.5 deg C hysteresis. Electric baseboard heaters may be similar due to bi-metallic switch characteristics. If your sensor is stable and suitably located for average and not too far away, then the comparator method will be good.



              Back in my Univ-days in the early 70's, I recall the classes had steam powered radiator heaters with a PID control because they were powerful enough to create large temperature swings ( if you did big adjustments to dial) However a 1kW heater is not that powerful.



              Conclusion



              • I suggest all you need is On/Off control.

              • the fan power could be self temp regulated or have 2 speeds Heater ON/OFF

              • the sensor location for room average and moderate proximity to heat is important to achieve good control.





              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$

















                1












                $begingroup$

                Typically a heater only has a comparator with hysteresis and a relay.



                This SSR Triac has zero voltage turn, zero current shutdown.



                However, there may be large thermal gradients from sun exposure or height variation so a slow speed fan may be prudent to reduce time delays between heat cycles and reduce temperature variance. So predicting small error corrections with burst control might be possible with the fan possibly staying on low speed when the heater is off or independently controlled by heater.



                If you simply have a low noise comparator with setpoint temp and 1 or more feedback temp. inputs, you might not have any better performance than this. If you find there is control hysteresis and/or delay and the heaters constantly cycle on and off.



                If you find that infinite Proportional gain using a comparator does not give you an acceptable temperature error, then define the error and figure out the cause so a better solution can be made.



                Gas Furnace digital controllers usually have at least a 0.5 deg C hysteresis. Electric baseboard heaters may be similar due to bi-metallic switch characteristics. If your sensor is stable and suitably located for average and not too far away, then the comparator method will be good.



                Back in my Univ-days in the early 70's, I recall the classes had steam powered radiator heaters with a PID control because they were powerful enough to create large temperature swings ( if you did big adjustments to dial) However a 1kW heater is not that powerful.



                Conclusion



                • I suggest all you need is On/Off control.

                • the fan power could be self temp regulated or have 2 speeds Heater ON/OFF

                • the sensor location for room average and moderate proximity to heat is important to achieve good control.





                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$















                  1












                  1








                  1





                  $begingroup$

                  Typically a heater only has a comparator with hysteresis and a relay.



                  This SSR Triac has zero voltage turn, zero current shutdown.



                  However, there may be large thermal gradients from sun exposure or height variation so a slow speed fan may be prudent to reduce time delays between heat cycles and reduce temperature variance. So predicting small error corrections with burst control might be possible with the fan possibly staying on low speed when the heater is off or independently controlled by heater.



                  If you simply have a low noise comparator with setpoint temp and 1 or more feedback temp. inputs, you might not have any better performance than this. If you find there is control hysteresis and/or delay and the heaters constantly cycle on and off.



                  If you find that infinite Proportional gain using a comparator does not give you an acceptable temperature error, then define the error and figure out the cause so a better solution can be made.



                  Gas Furnace digital controllers usually have at least a 0.5 deg C hysteresis. Electric baseboard heaters may be similar due to bi-metallic switch characteristics. If your sensor is stable and suitably located for average and not too far away, then the comparator method will be good.



                  Back in my Univ-days in the early 70's, I recall the classes had steam powered radiator heaters with a PID control because they were powerful enough to create large temperature swings ( if you did big adjustments to dial) However a 1kW heater is not that powerful.



                  Conclusion



                  • I suggest all you need is On/Off control.

                  • the fan power could be self temp regulated or have 2 speeds Heater ON/OFF

                  • the sensor location for room average and moderate proximity to heat is important to achieve good control.





                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  Typically a heater only has a comparator with hysteresis and a relay.



                  This SSR Triac has zero voltage turn, zero current shutdown.



                  However, there may be large thermal gradients from sun exposure or height variation so a slow speed fan may be prudent to reduce time delays between heat cycles and reduce temperature variance. So predicting small error corrections with burst control might be possible with the fan possibly staying on low speed when the heater is off or independently controlled by heater.



                  If you simply have a low noise comparator with setpoint temp and 1 or more feedback temp. inputs, you might not have any better performance than this. If you find there is control hysteresis and/or delay and the heaters constantly cycle on and off.



                  If you find that infinite Proportional gain using a comparator does not give you an acceptable temperature error, then define the error and figure out the cause so a better solution can be made.



                  Gas Furnace digital controllers usually have at least a 0.5 deg C hysteresis. Electric baseboard heaters may be similar due to bi-metallic switch characteristics. If your sensor is stable and suitably located for average and not too far away, then the comparator method will be good.



                  Back in my Univ-days in the early 70's, I recall the classes had steam powered radiator heaters with a PID control because they were powerful enough to create large temperature swings ( if you did big adjustments to dial) However a 1kW heater is not that powerful.



                  Conclusion



                  • I suggest all you need is On/Off control.

                  • the fan power could be self temp regulated or have 2 speeds Heater ON/OFF

                  • the sensor location for room average and moderate proximity to heat is important to achieve good control.






                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered May 2 at 17:44









                  Sunnyskyguy EE75Sunnyskyguy EE75

                  73k228103




                  73k228103



























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