Complicated rational number functional equationFollow on from previous question: Functional Equation - a little trickyHelp with complicated functional equationIntegers and functional equationRational number that approximates $sqrt3$Miklos Schweitzer 2001 5: Functional Equation conditionsFunctional equation : $f(xf(y))=yf(x)$Functional equation, find particular value given $f(ab)=bf(a)+af(b)$Rational Functional EquationsA functional equation problem from Functional Equations (pdf)Function Equation Question Involving $f(xy)=f(x)f(y)-f(x+y)+1$

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Complicated rational number functional equation


Follow on from previous question: Functional Equation - a little trickyHelp with complicated functional equationIntegers and functional equationRational number that approximates $sqrt3$Miklos Schweitzer 2001 5: Functional Equation conditionsFunctional equation : $f(xf(y))=yf(x)$Functional equation, find particular value given $f(ab)=bf(a)+af(b)$Rational Functional EquationsA functional equation problem from Functional Equations (pdf)Function Equation Question Involving $f(xy)=f(x)f(y)-f(x+y)+1$













4












$begingroup$


Let $mathbbQ^+$ denote the set of positive rational numbers. Let $f : mathbbQ^+ to mathbbQ^+$ be a function such that
$f left( x + fracyx right) = f(x) + fracf(y)f(x) + 2y$ for all $x,$ $y in mathbbQ^+.$



Find all possible values of $f left( frac13 right).$



If I substitute in $x=y$, then I get $f(x+1)-f(x)=2x+1$. This suggests that $f(x)=x^2$ works, and one possible value of $f(1/3)$ is $1/9$. Did I miss anything?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Your try of $x=y$ is a good start and it does suggest that $f(x)=x^2$ works, but you should plug that into the defining equation and see if it does. Then you have to think about whether there are other possibilities.
    $endgroup$
    – Ross Millikan
    May 30 at 3:23















4












$begingroup$


Let $mathbbQ^+$ denote the set of positive rational numbers. Let $f : mathbbQ^+ to mathbbQ^+$ be a function such that
$f left( x + fracyx right) = f(x) + fracf(y)f(x) + 2y$ for all $x,$ $y in mathbbQ^+.$



Find all possible values of $f left( frac13 right).$



If I substitute in $x=y$, then I get $f(x+1)-f(x)=2x+1$. This suggests that $f(x)=x^2$ works, and one possible value of $f(1/3)$ is $1/9$. Did I miss anything?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Your try of $x=y$ is a good start and it does suggest that $f(x)=x^2$ works, but you should plug that into the defining equation and see if it does. Then you have to think about whether there are other possibilities.
    $endgroup$
    – Ross Millikan
    May 30 at 3:23













4












4








4


3



$begingroup$


Let $mathbbQ^+$ denote the set of positive rational numbers. Let $f : mathbbQ^+ to mathbbQ^+$ be a function such that
$f left( x + fracyx right) = f(x) + fracf(y)f(x) + 2y$ for all $x,$ $y in mathbbQ^+.$



Find all possible values of $f left( frac13 right).$



If I substitute in $x=y$, then I get $f(x+1)-f(x)=2x+1$. This suggests that $f(x)=x^2$ works, and one possible value of $f(1/3)$ is $1/9$. Did I miss anything?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Let $mathbbQ^+$ denote the set of positive rational numbers. Let $f : mathbbQ^+ to mathbbQ^+$ be a function such that
$f left( x + fracyx right) = f(x) + fracf(y)f(x) + 2y$ for all $x,$ $y in mathbbQ^+.$



Find all possible values of $f left( frac13 right).$



If I substitute in $x=y$, then I get $f(x+1)-f(x)=2x+1$. This suggests that $f(x)=x^2$ works, and one possible value of $f(1/3)$ is $1/9$. Did I miss anything?







functional-equations irrational-numbers






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share|cite|improve this question








edited May 30 at 14:30







doingmath

















asked May 30 at 3:05









doingmathdoingmath

272




272











  • $begingroup$
    Your try of $x=y$ is a good start and it does suggest that $f(x)=x^2$ works, but you should plug that into the defining equation and see if it does. Then you have to think about whether there are other possibilities.
    $endgroup$
    – Ross Millikan
    May 30 at 3:23
















  • $begingroup$
    Your try of $x=y$ is a good start and it does suggest that $f(x)=x^2$ works, but you should plug that into the defining equation and see if it does. Then you have to think about whether there are other possibilities.
    $endgroup$
    – Ross Millikan
    May 30 at 3:23















$begingroup$
Your try of $x=y$ is a good start and it does suggest that $f(x)=x^2$ works, but you should plug that into the defining equation and see if it does. Then you have to think about whether there are other possibilities.
$endgroup$
– Ross Millikan
May 30 at 3:23




$begingroup$
Your try of $x=y$ is a good start and it does suggest that $f(x)=x^2$ works, but you should plug that into the defining equation and see if it does. Then you have to think about whether there are other possibilities.
$endgroup$
– Ross Millikan
May 30 at 3:23










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















5












$begingroup$

Yes.



But what you didn't do was prove that you had all possible values. If somebody told you to solve $x^2=1$, you wouldn't say $1$ and leave it. You would prove that $1$ is the only solution, or find more solutions and prove that you'd found all of them.



A similar things applies here. The question asks for you to find all possible values. How do you know you have all of them?



Here's a quick sketch of how to prove that you have all solutions:
Set $y:=y+x$ and subtract the original equation to get
$$2x+2fracyx+1=fracf(y+x)-f(y)f(x)+2x$$Rearrange and simplify:



$$2fracyxf(x)+f(x)=f(y+x)-f(y)$$
Repeat the same trick: set $y:=y+1$ and subtract that last equation to get
$$2fracf(x)x=2y+2x+1-2y-1$$
so $f(x)=x^2$ as required. Just verify this works by substituting back into the original equation.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    What do you mean by "Set $y:=y+x$"?
    $endgroup$
    – JiK
    May 30 at 12:18










  • $begingroup$
    @JiK If you like you can consider it as splitting $y$ up into two variables, $x+z= y$, and then relabelling $z$ to $y$ as a dummy variable.
    $endgroup$
    – auscrypt
    May 30 at 12:22


















3












$begingroup$

From $f(x+1)-f(x)=2x+1$, we can deduce that $f(x)=x^2+f(1)-1$ for all $xinmathbbZ^+$.



Note that we also have $f(1+frac x1)=f(1)+fracf(x)f(1)+2x$.



Therefore, $f(x+1)=f(x)+2x+1=dfracf(x)f(1)+2x+f(1)$.



Hence, $f(x)left(1-dfrac1f(1)right)=f(1)-1$ for $xinmathbbQ^+$.



As $f$ is not constantly zero, $f(1)=1$. So, $f(x)=x^2$ for $xinmathbbZ^+$.



$f(3+frac13)=f(3)+fracf(1)f(3)+2(1)=3^2+frac13^2+2=11+frac19$



$f(2+frac13)=f(3+frac13)-2(2+frac13)-1=5+frac49$



$f(1+frac13)=f(2+frac13)-2(1+frac13)-1=1+frac79$



$f(frac13)=f(1+frac13)-2(frac13)-1=frac19$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    0












    $begingroup$

    We have
    $$tag$x=y=1$ f(2)=f(1)+3$$
    $$tag$x=1,y=2$ f(3)=f(1)+fracf(2)f(1)+4=f(1)+5+frac3f(1)$$
    $$tag$x=y=2$ f(3)=f(2)+5=f(1)+8$$
    hence $f(1)=1$.
    Let $S=,xinBbb Q_+mid f(x)=x^2,$.
    As just seen, $1in S$.
    From the functional equation we see that if $x$ and one of $y,x+frac yx$ are $in S$, then so is the third. In other words,
    $$tag1x,yin Simplies x+frac yxin S $$
    and
    $$tag2 x,yin Sland x<yimplies (y-x)xin S.$$
    In particular, using $(1)$ with $y=x$ and $(2)$ with $x=1$, we find that for $xin Bbb Q_+$,
    $$tag3xin Siff x+1in S$$ and so by induction $Bbb Z_+subseteq S$.



    Let $x=frac abinBbb Q_+$. From $(1)$, $b+xin S$. Then by applying $(3)$ $b$ times, $xin S$. In other words, $S=Bbb Q_+$ and
    $$f(x)=x^2$$
    for all $xinBbb Q_+$.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      5












      $begingroup$

      Yes.



      But what you didn't do was prove that you had all possible values. If somebody told you to solve $x^2=1$, you wouldn't say $1$ and leave it. You would prove that $1$ is the only solution, or find more solutions and prove that you'd found all of them.



      A similar things applies here. The question asks for you to find all possible values. How do you know you have all of them?



      Here's a quick sketch of how to prove that you have all solutions:
      Set $y:=y+x$ and subtract the original equation to get
      $$2x+2fracyx+1=fracf(y+x)-f(y)f(x)+2x$$Rearrange and simplify:



      $$2fracyxf(x)+f(x)=f(y+x)-f(y)$$
      Repeat the same trick: set $y:=y+1$ and subtract that last equation to get
      $$2fracf(x)x=2y+2x+1-2y-1$$
      so $f(x)=x^2$ as required. Just verify this works by substituting back into the original equation.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        What do you mean by "Set $y:=y+x$"?
        $endgroup$
        – JiK
        May 30 at 12:18










      • $begingroup$
        @JiK If you like you can consider it as splitting $y$ up into two variables, $x+z= y$, and then relabelling $z$ to $y$ as a dummy variable.
        $endgroup$
        – auscrypt
        May 30 at 12:22















      5












      $begingroup$

      Yes.



      But what you didn't do was prove that you had all possible values. If somebody told you to solve $x^2=1$, you wouldn't say $1$ and leave it. You would prove that $1$ is the only solution, or find more solutions and prove that you'd found all of them.



      A similar things applies here. The question asks for you to find all possible values. How do you know you have all of them?



      Here's a quick sketch of how to prove that you have all solutions:
      Set $y:=y+x$ and subtract the original equation to get
      $$2x+2fracyx+1=fracf(y+x)-f(y)f(x)+2x$$Rearrange and simplify:



      $$2fracyxf(x)+f(x)=f(y+x)-f(y)$$
      Repeat the same trick: set $y:=y+1$ and subtract that last equation to get
      $$2fracf(x)x=2y+2x+1-2y-1$$
      so $f(x)=x^2$ as required. Just verify this works by substituting back into the original equation.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        What do you mean by "Set $y:=y+x$"?
        $endgroup$
        – JiK
        May 30 at 12:18










      • $begingroup$
        @JiK If you like you can consider it as splitting $y$ up into two variables, $x+z= y$, and then relabelling $z$ to $y$ as a dummy variable.
        $endgroup$
        – auscrypt
        May 30 at 12:22













      5












      5








      5





      $begingroup$

      Yes.



      But what you didn't do was prove that you had all possible values. If somebody told you to solve $x^2=1$, you wouldn't say $1$ and leave it. You would prove that $1$ is the only solution, or find more solutions and prove that you'd found all of them.



      A similar things applies here. The question asks for you to find all possible values. How do you know you have all of them?



      Here's a quick sketch of how to prove that you have all solutions:
      Set $y:=y+x$ and subtract the original equation to get
      $$2x+2fracyx+1=fracf(y+x)-f(y)f(x)+2x$$Rearrange and simplify:



      $$2fracyxf(x)+f(x)=f(y+x)-f(y)$$
      Repeat the same trick: set $y:=y+1$ and subtract that last equation to get
      $$2fracf(x)x=2y+2x+1-2y-1$$
      so $f(x)=x^2$ as required. Just verify this works by substituting back into the original equation.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      Yes.



      But what you didn't do was prove that you had all possible values. If somebody told you to solve $x^2=1$, you wouldn't say $1$ and leave it. You would prove that $1$ is the only solution, or find more solutions and prove that you'd found all of them.



      A similar things applies here. The question asks for you to find all possible values. How do you know you have all of them?



      Here's a quick sketch of how to prove that you have all solutions:
      Set $y:=y+x$ and subtract the original equation to get
      $$2x+2fracyx+1=fracf(y+x)-f(y)f(x)+2x$$Rearrange and simplify:



      $$2fracyxf(x)+f(x)=f(y+x)-f(y)$$
      Repeat the same trick: set $y:=y+1$ and subtract that last equation to get
      $$2fracf(x)x=2y+2x+1-2y-1$$
      so $f(x)=x^2$ as required. Just verify this works by substituting back into the original equation.







      share|cite|improve this answer












      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer










      answered May 30 at 3:33









      auscryptauscrypt

      5,206212




      5,206212











      • $begingroup$
        What do you mean by "Set $y:=y+x$"?
        $endgroup$
        – JiK
        May 30 at 12:18










      • $begingroup$
        @JiK If you like you can consider it as splitting $y$ up into two variables, $x+z= y$, and then relabelling $z$ to $y$ as a dummy variable.
        $endgroup$
        – auscrypt
        May 30 at 12:22
















      • $begingroup$
        What do you mean by "Set $y:=y+x$"?
        $endgroup$
        – JiK
        May 30 at 12:18










      • $begingroup$
        @JiK If you like you can consider it as splitting $y$ up into two variables, $x+z= y$, and then relabelling $z$ to $y$ as a dummy variable.
        $endgroup$
        – auscrypt
        May 30 at 12:22















      $begingroup$
      What do you mean by "Set $y:=y+x$"?
      $endgroup$
      – JiK
      May 30 at 12:18




      $begingroup$
      What do you mean by "Set $y:=y+x$"?
      $endgroup$
      – JiK
      May 30 at 12:18












      $begingroup$
      @JiK If you like you can consider it as splitting $y$ up into two variables, $x+z= y$, and then relabelling $z$ to $y$ as a dummy variable.
      $endgroup$
      – auscrypt
      May 30 at 12:22




      $begingroup$
      @JiK If you like you can consider it as splitting $y$ up into two variables, $x+z= y$, and then relabelling $z$ to $y$ as a dummy variable.
      $endgroup$
      – auscrypt
      May 30 at 12:22











      3












      $begingroup$

      From $f(x+1)-f(x)=2x+1$, we can deduce that $f(x)=x^2+f(1)-1$ for all $xinmathbbZ^+$.



      Note that we also have $f(1+frac x1)=f(1)+fracf(x)f(1)+2x$.



      Therefore, $f(x+1)=f(x)+2x+1=dfracf(x)f(1)+2x+f(1)$.



      Hence, $f(x)left(1-dfrac1f(1)right)=f(1)-1$ for $xinmathbbQ^+$.



      As $f$ is not constantly zero, $f(1)=1$. So, $f(x)=x^2$ for $xinmathbbZ^+$.



      $f(3+frac13)=f(3)+fracf(1)f(3)+2(1)=3^2+frac13^2+2=11+frac19$



      $f(2+frac13)=f(3+frac13)-2(2+frac13)-1=5+frac49$



      $f(1+frac13)=f(2+frac13)-2(1+frac13)-1=1+frac79$



      $f(frac13)=f(1+frac13)-2(frac13)-1=frac19$






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$

















        3












        $begingroup$

        From $f(x+1)-f(x)=2x+1$, we can deduce that $f(x)=x^2+f(1)-1$ for all $xinmathbbZ^+$.



        Note that we also have $f(1+frac x1)=f(1)+fracf(x)f(1)+2x$.



        Therefore, $f(x+1)=f(x)+2x+1=dfracf(x)f(1)+2x+f(1)$.



        Hence, $f(x)left(1-dfrac1f(1)right)=f(1)-1$ for $xinmathbbQ^+$.



        As $f$ is not constantly zero, $f(1)=1$. So, $f(x)=x^2$ for $xinmathbbZ^+$.



        $f(3+frac13)=f(3)+fracf(1)f(3)+2(1)=3^2+frac13^2+2=11+frac19$



        $f(2+frac13)=f(3+frac13)-2(2+frac13)-1=5+frac49$



        $f(1+frac13)=f(2+frac13)-2(1+frac13)-1=1+frac79$



        $f(frac13)=f(1+frac13)-2(frac13)-1=frac19$






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$















          3












          3








          3





          $begingroup$

          From $f(x+1)-f(x)=2x+1$, we can deduce that $f(x)=x^2+f(1)-1$ for all $xinmathbbZ^+$.



          Note that we also have $f(1+frac x1)=f(1)+fracf(x)f(1)+2x$.



          Therefore, $f(x+1)=f(x)+2x+1=dfracf(x)f(1)+2x+f(1)$.



          Hence, $f(x)left(1-dfrac1f(1)right)=f(1)-1$ for $xinmathbbQ^+$.



          As $f$ is not constantly zero, $f(1)=1$. So, $f(x)=x^2$ for $xinmathbbZ^+$.



          $f(3+frac13)=f(3)+fracf(1)f(3)+2(1)=3^2+frac13^2+2=11+frac19$



          $f(2+frac13)=f(3+frac13)-2(2+frac13)-1=5+frac49$



          $f(1+frac13)=f(2+frac13)-2(1+frac13)-1=1+frac79$



          $f(frac13)=f(1+frac13)-2(frac13)-1=frac19$






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          From $f(x+1)-f(x)=2x+1$, we can deduce that $f(x)=x^2+f(1)-1$ for all $xinmathbbZ^+$.



          Note that we also have $f(1+frac x1)=f(1)+fracf(x)f(1)+2x$.



          Therefore, $f(x+1)=f(x)+2x+1=dfracf(x)f(1)+2x+f(1)$.



          Hence, $f(x)left(1-dfrac1f(1)right)=f(1)-1$ for $xinmathbbQ^+$.



          As $f$ is not constantly zero, $f(1)=1$. So, $f(x)=x^2$ for $xinmathbbZ^+$.



          $f(3+frac13)=f(3)+fracf(1)f(3)+2(1)=3^2+frac13^2+2=11+frac19$



          $f(2+frac13)=f(3+frac13)-2(2+frac13)-1=5+frac49$



          $f(1+frac13)=f(2+frac13)-2(1+frac13)-1=1+frac79$



          $f(frac13)=f(1+frac13)-2(frac13)-1=frac19$







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered May 30 at 3:39









          CY AriesCY Aries

          20.4k12047




          20.4k12047





















              0












              $begingroup$

              We have
              $$tag$x=y=1$ f(2)=f(1)+3$$
              $$tag$x=1,y=2$ f(3)=f(1)+fracf(2)f(1)+4=f(1)+5+frac3f(1)$$
              $$tag$x=y=2$ f(3)=f(2)+5=f(1)+8$$
              hence $f(1)=1$.
              Let $S=,xinBbb Q_+mid f(x)=x^2,$.
              As just seen, $1in S$.
              From the functional equation we see that if $x$ and one of $y,x+frac yx$ are $in S$, then so is the third. In other words,
              $$tag1x,yin Simplies x+frac yxin S $$
              and
              $$tag2 x,yin Sland x<yimplies (y-x)xin S.$$
              In particular, using $(1)$ with $y=x$ and $(2)$ with $x=1$, we find that for $xin Bbb Q_+$,
              $$tag3xin Siff x+1in S$$ and so by induction $Bbb Z_+subseteq S$.



              Let $x=frac abinBbb Q_+$. From $(1)$, $b+xin S$. Then by applying $(3)$ $b$ times, $xin S$. In other words, $S=Bbb Q_+$ and
              $$f(x)=x^2$$
              for all $xinBbb Q_+$.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$

















                0












                $begingroup$

                We have
                $$tag$x=y=1$ f(2)=f(1)+3$$
                $$tag$x=1,y=2$ f(3)=f(1)+fracf(2)f(1)+4=f(1)+5+frac3f(1)$$
                $$tag$x=y=2$ f(3)=f(2)+5=f(1)+8$$
                hence $f(1)=1$.
                Let $S=,xinBbb Q_+mid f(x)=x^2,$.
                As just seen, $1in S$.
                From the functional equation we see that if $x$ and one of $y,x+frac yx$ are $in S$, then so is the third. In other words,
                $$tag1x,yin Simplies x+frac yxin S $$
                and
                $$tag2 x,yin Sland x<yimplies (y-x)xin S.$$
                In particular, using $(1)$ with $y=x$ and $(2)$ with $x=1$, we find that for $xin Bbb Q_+$,
                $$tag3xin Siff x+1in S$$ and so by induction $Bbb Z_+subseteq S$.



                Let $x=frac abinBbb Q_+$. From $(1)$, $b+xin S$. Then by applying $(3)$ $b$ times, $xin S$. In other words, $S=Bbb Q_+$ and
                $$f(x)=x^2$$
                for all $xinBbb Q_+$.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$















                  0












                  0








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                  $begingroup$

                  We have
                  $$tag$x=y=1$ f(2)=f(1)+3$$
                  $$tag$x=1,y=2$ f(3)=f(1)+fracf(2)f(1)+4=f(1)+5+frac3f(1)$$
                  $$tag$x=y=2$ f(3)=f(2)+5=f(1)+8$$
                  hence $f(1)=1$.
                  Let $S=,xinBbb Q_+mid f(x)=x^2,$.
                  As just seen, $1in S$.
                  From the functional equation we see that if $x$ and one of $y,x+frac yx$ are $in S$, then so is the third. In other words,
                  $$tag1x,yin Simplies x+frac yxin S $$
                  and
                  $$tag2 x,yin Sland x<yimplies (y-x)xin S.$$
                  In particular, using $(1)$ with $y=x$ and $(2)$ with $x=1$, we find that for $xin Bbb Q_+$,
                  $$tag3xin Siff x+1in S$$ and so by induction $Bbb Z_+subseteq S$.



                  Let $x=frac abinBbb Q_+$. From $(1)$, $b+xin S$. Then by applying $(3)$ $b$ times, $xin S$. In other words, $S=Bbb Q_+$ and
                  $$f(x)=x^2$$
                  for all $xinBbb Q_+$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  We have
                  $$tag$x=y=1$ f(2)=f(1)+3$$
                  $$tag$x=1,y=2$ f(3)=f(1)+fracf(2)f(1)+4=f(1)+5+frac3f(1)$$
                  $$tag$x=y=2$ f(3)=f(2)+5=f(1)+8$$
                  hence $f(1)=1$.
                  Let $S=,xinBbb Q_+mid f(x)=x^2,$.
                  As just seen, $1in S$.
                  From the functional equation we see that if $x$ and one of $y,x+frac yx$ are $in S$, then so is the third. In other words,
                  $$tag1x,yin Simplies x+frac yxin S $$
                  and
                  $$tag2 x,yin Sland x<yimplies (y-x)xin S.$$
                  In particular, using $(1)$ with $y=x$ and $(2)$ with $x=1$, we find that for $xin Bbb Q_+$,
                  $$tag3xin Siff x+1in S$$ and so by induction $Bbb Z_+subseteq S$.



                  Let $x=frac abinBbb Q_+$. From $(1)$, $b+xin S$. Then by applying $(3)$ $b$ times, $xin S$. In other words, $S=Bbb Q_+$ and
                  $$f(x)=x^2$$
                  for all $xinBbb Q_+$.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered May 30 at 13:49









                  Hagen von EitzenHagen von Eitzen

                  288k23275509




                  288k23275509



























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