Shabbat clothing on shabbat chazonWhich parts of the Chazon Haftorah get sad tune (Eicha trop)?Source for wearing special clothing on Rosh ChodeshBathing before Shabbos ChazonAufruf and Shabbat Chatan?Tasting the meaty Shabbos food on erev Shabbos Chazon: can one swallow?May one give a child a Meat meal on Erev Shabbos Chazon if they are always served on Erev Shabbos a meat meal?What is the Heter for the prevalent Clothing among Women?Can one wear new clothes on the Shabbat preceding Tisha B'Av?Looking for a Chazon Ish about developement of Minhagim

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Co-author responds to email by mistake cc'ing the EiC



Shabbat clothing on shabbat chazon


Which parts of the Chazon Haftorah get sad tune (Eicha trop)?Source for wearing special clothing on Rosh ChodeshBathing before Shabbos ChazonAufruf and Shabbat Chatan?Tasting the meaty Shabbos food on erev Shabbos Chazon: can one swallow?May one give a child a Meat meal on Erev Shabbos Chazon if they are always served on Erev Shabbos a meat meal?What is the Heter for the prevalent Clothing among Women?Can one wear new clothes on the Shabbat preceding Tisha B'Av?Looking for a Chazon Ish about developement of Minhagim






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








10















The rema writes in סימן תקנ"א that on shabbat chazon one does not wear shabbat clothing and instead one wears weekday clothing.




אפי' בשבת של חזון אין מחליפין ללבוש בגדי שבת כי אם הכתונת לבד (מרדכי הל' ט"ב והגהות אשירי פ"ד דתענית ואגודה ורוקח)




Nowadays in many ashkenazi communities the custom seemingly is to wear shabbat clothes on shabbat chazon.
When and how did the custom change in ashkenazi communities.










share|improve this question


























  • IMHO, R. Mordechai -the source- is misapplied to today’s garb. See for example resp. Maharshal §27.

    – Oliver
    Aug 9 at 15:17

















10















The rema writes in סימן תקנ"א that on shabbat chazon one does not wear shabbat clothing and instead one wears weekday clothing.




אפי' בשבת של חזון אין מחליפין ללבוש בגדי שבת כי אם הכתונת לבד (מרדכי הל' ט"ב והגהות אשירי פ"ד דתענית ואגודה ורוקח)




Nowadays in many ashkenazi communities the custom seemingly is to wear shabbat clothes on shabbat chazon.
When and how did the custom change in ashkenazi communities.










share|improve this question


























  • IMHO, R. Mordechai -the source- is misapplied to today’s garb. See for example resp. Maharshal §27.

    – Oliver
    Aug 9 at 15:17













10












10








10








The rema writes in סימן תקנ"א that on shabbat chazon one does not wear shabbat clothing and instead one wears weekday clothing.




אפי' בשבת של חזון אין מחליפין ללבוש בגדי שבת כי אם הכתונת לבד (מרדכי הל' ט"ב והגהות אשירי פ"ד דתענית ואגודה ורוקח)




Nowadays in many ashkenazi communities the custom seemingly is to wear shabbat clothes on shabbat chazon.
When and how did the custom change in ashkenazi communities.










share|improve this question
















The rema writes in סימן תקנ"א that on shabbat chazon one does not wear shabbat clothing and instead one wears weekday clothing.




אפי' בשבת של חזון אין מחליפין ללבוש בגדי שבת כי אם הכתונת לבד (מרדכי הל' ט"ב והגהות אשירי פ"ד דתענית ואגודה ורוקח)




Nowadays in many ashkenazi communities the custom seemingly is to wear shabbat clothes on shabbat chazon.
When and how did the custom change in ashkenazi communities.







minhag ashkenazi nine-days






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Aug 12 at 9:22









Joel K

19k2 gold badges34 silver badges111 bronze badges




19k2 gold badges34 silver badges111 bronze badges










asked Aug 9 at 5:56









Yosef Mordechai ColemanYosef Mordechai Coleman

7203 silver badges12 bronze badges




7203 silver badges12 bronze badges















  • IMHO, R. Mordechai -the source- is misapplied to today’s garb. See for example resp. Maharshal §27.

    – Oliver
    Aug 9 at 15:17

















  • IMHO, R. Mordechai -the source- is misapplied to today’s garb. See for example resp. Maharshal §27.

    – Oliver
    Aug 9 at 15:17
















IMHO, R. Mordechai -the source- is misapplied to today’s garb. See for example resp. Maharshal §27.

– Oliver
Aug 9 at 15:17





IMHO, R. Mordechai -the source- is misapplied to today’s garb. See for example resp. Maharshal §27.

– Oliver
Aug 9 at 15:17










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















12













Aruch HaShulchan Orach Chayyim 551:11 (writing at the end of the nineteenth century CE) notes that two or three generations prior to his time the custom had changed (amongst the Jews of Lita) such that people wore shabbat clothes on Shabbat Chazon.



He suggests that the reason for this change is that shabbat clothes had become noticeably different from weekday clothing, so that not changing one’s clothes for Shabbat Chazon would be displaying mourning publicly on shabbat, which is not allowed.



(He goes on to note that in his time shabbat and weekday clothing had become similar again, so that in his view the old custom of not changing should be reinstated.)






share|improve this answer



























  • Is there any evidence for this claim? It's such a stretch. Seems so much more likely it stopped because the Gra and Arizal opposed it.

    – Double AA
    Aug 9 at 11:32












  • @DoubleAA I have heard that Gra opposed it. Do you have a source? Biur Hagra just writes that is a chumrah be’alma...

    – Joel K
    Aug 9 at 13:16











  • @DoubleAA I second your skepticism. More-so, much before the Arizal even the tune of Eichah for the haftarah was suppressed/disallowed bec. it demonstrates aveilut but full weekday attire was OK? Doesn’t add up. (It points to my assumption here.)

    – Oliver
    Aug 9 at 15:23






  • 1





    @JoelK The Gra’s opposition is also recorded in the Maaseh Rav (§197).

    – Oliver
    Aug 9 at 15:31


















9













Aruch HaShulchan 551:11




ודע שאצלינו יש שנים או שלושה דורות שאין נוהגין כמנהג הזה בשבת חזון,
אלא לובשין כל בגדי שבת. וגדולי הדור שהיו אז הנהיגו כן, באמרם שזהו
כמראים אבילות בשבת בפרהסיא.



It is important to note that for the past two or three generations we
have not been following this minhag [of wearing weekday clothing] on
Shabbos Chazon, but we dress like a regular Shabbos. The greats of
that generation acted thusly by saying that it would be like
mourning publicly on Shabbos.



ולכן אפילו בשבת שחל בו תשעה באב ונדחה – אנו לובשין בגדי שבת מטעם זה.
ולכן בימינו אלה, כמעט נשכח הדבר שאין ללבוש בגדי שבת בשבת חזון.ותמוה
אצלי דבר זה, דאטו קדמונינו לא ידעו זה? ועם כל זה נהגו בזה, אף שאינו כן
מדינא; ואיך נבטל מנהגם?



Therefore, it is for this very reason that even when when Tisha Baav
falls on Shabbos, we still wear regular Shabbos clothes like normal.
It therefore seems that this practice of refraining from wearing
Shabbos clothes on Shabbos Chazon has been very much forgotten these
days. I personally find this perplexing. Did the ones who originally
instituted this [practice which Rama is quoting from] not know this?
Of course they did, and nonetheless acted this way regardless of the
slight pushing of the law’s boundaries. How, then, can we push away
their practices?



ולכן נראה לעניות דעתי דזה תלוי באופן ההלבשה. דאצל הקדמונים היתה הלבשת
שבת וחול שווים בדמותם ובתמונתם, אלא שההפרש היה בין סחורה יקרה ובין
סחורה פשוטה, ולא היה ההפרש ניכר כל כך, שהרי עניים גם בשבת יוצאין
בסחורה פשוטה.



Therefore, it is my humble opinion that this entire discussion
revolves around the difference of manner in dressing. The earlier
generations’ garments were indistinguishable in there appearance
between Shabbos and weekday. It was only a difference in quality; some
expensive and some simple. The difference, however, was barely
intelligible. The poor would even regularly wear the simple-ware on
Shabbos!



ולכן הנהיגו ללבוש בגדי חול.מה שאין כן זה כמה דורות מקודם, שבשבת היתה
תמונה אחרת לגמרי להבגדים, בין עני בין עשיר. כמו שבחול היו נושאין כובע
של קלאפי"ן, ובשבת שטריימי"ל. וכן שארי בגדים – היה ניכר לכל שזה בגד
חול, כמו קיטאי"י, וזה בגד שבת, כמו של משי לעשיר, ומשי פשוט לעני.
ולפיכך הנהיגו הגדולים שלא לנהוג מנהג זה, מפני שההפרש ניכר הרבה, והוי
כאבילות בשבת.



Therefore, they were able to wear weekday clothes on Shabbos. This was not the case only a few generations ago. Shabbos clothing had an entirely different look to them regardless of quality and cost. For example, during the week they would wear a kalpin hat, and on Shabbos a shtreimel hat. Weekday garments like kitai, could be easily distinguished between the silk Shabbos garments which both the poor and rich man would wear. This is precisely why they ended this practice, because the difference was now so great that it would be as if they were mourning on Shabbos.



ולכן אני אומר דבזמנינו זה, שעל פי פקודת המלכות כבר החלפנו תמונת
הבגדים, ושבת וחול תמונה אחת להן, אלא שההפרש בין זול ליוקר – וודאי נכון
לקיים מנהג הקדמונים.(כן נראה לעניות דעתי. ודע דזה שנתבאר בסעיף ט דבכל
חדש אב לישתמט אינש וכו', מבואר בזוהר יתרו דף עח ב דרק עד תשעה באב
לישתמיט ולא יותר, עיין שם.)



Therefore, I must end by saying that in our country the standards have been reset through governmental intervention, and our garments are once again indistinguishable. The only differing factor is the price and quality. In my humble opinion, it seems that we should reinstate this practice of yesteryear.







share|improve this answer




































    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    12













    Aruch HaShulchan Orach Chayyim 551:11 (writing at the end of the nineteenth century CE) notes that two or three generations prior to his time the custom had changed (amongst the Jews of Lita) such that people wore shabbat clothes on Shabbat Chazon.



    He suggests that the reason for this change is that shabbat clothes had become noticeably different from weekday clothing, so that not changing one’s clothes for Shabbat Chazon would be displaying mourning publicly on shabbat, which is not allowed.



    (He goes on to note that in his time shabbat and weekday clothing had become similar again, so that in his view the old custom of not changing should be reinstated.)






    share|improve this answer



























    • Is there any evidence for this claim? It's such a stretch. Seems so much more likely it stopped because the Gra and Arizal opposed it.

      – Double AA
      Aug 9 at 11:32












    • @DoubleAA I have heard that Gra opposed it. Do you have a source? Biur Hagra just writes that is a chumrah be’alma...

      – Joel K
      Aug 9 at 13:16











    • @DoubleAA I second your skepticism. More-so, much before the Arizal even the tune of Eichah for the haftarah was suppressed/disallowed bec. it demonstrates aveilut but full weekday attire was OK? Doesn’t add up. (It points to my assumption here.)

      – Oliver
      Aug 9 at 15:23






    • 1





      @JoelK The Gra’s opposition is also recorded in the Maaseh Rav (§197).

      – Oliver
      Aug 9 at 15:31















    12













    Aruch HaShulchan Orach Chayyim 551:11 (writing at the end of the nineteenth century CE) notes that two or three generations prior to his time the custom had changed (amongst the Jews of Lita) such that people wore shabbat clothes on Shabbat Chazon.



    He suggests that the reason for this change is that shabbat clothes had become noticeably different from weekday clothing, so that not changing one’s clothes for Shabbat Chazon would be displaying mourning publicly on shabbat, which is not allowed.



    (He goes on to note that in his time shabbat and weekday clothing had become similar again, so that in his view the old custom of not changing should be reinstated.)






    share|improve this answer



























    • Is there any evidence for this claim? It's such a stretch. Seems so much more likely it stopped because the Gra and Arizal opposed it.

      – Double AA
      Aug 9 at 11:32












    • @DoubleAA I have heard that Gra opposed it. Do you have a source? Biur Hagra just writes that is a chumrah be’alma...

      – Joel K
      Aug 9 at 13:16











    • @DoubleAA I second your skepticism. More-so, much before the Arizal even the tune of Eichah for the haftarah was suppressed/disallowed bec. it demonstrates aveilut but full weekday attire was OK? Doesn’t add up. (It points to my assumption here.)

      – Oliver
      Aug 9 at 15:23






    • 1





      @JoelK The Gra’s opposition is also recorded in the Maaseh Rav (§197).

      – Oliver
      Aug 9 at 15:31













    12












    12








    12







    Aruch HaShulchan Orach Chayyim 551:11 (writing at the end of the nineteenth century CE) notes that two or three generations prior to his time the custom had changed (amongst the Jews of Lita) such that people wore shabbat clothes on Shabbat Chazon.



    He suggests that the reason for this change is that shabbat clothes had become noticeably different from weekday clothing, so that not changing one’s clothes for Shabbat Chazon would be displaying mourning publicly on shabbat, which is not allowed.



    (He goes on to note that in his time shabbat and weekday clothing had become similar again, so that in his view the old custom of not changing should be reinstated.)






    share|improve this answer















    Aruch HaShulchan Orach Chayyim 551:11 (writing at the end of the nineteenth century CE) notes that two or three generations prior to his time the custom had changed (amongst the Jews of Lita) such that people wore shabbat clothes on Shabbat Chazon.



    He suggests that the reason for this change is that shabbat clothes had become noticeably different from weekday clothing, so that not changing one’s clothes for Shabbat Chazon would be displaying mourning publicly on shabbat, which is not allowed.



    (He goes on to note that in his time shabbat and weekday clothing had become similar again, so that in his view the old custom of not changing should be reinstated.)







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited Aug 9 at 8:20

























    answered Aug 9 at 6:53









    Joel KJoel K

    19k2 gold badges34 silver badges111 bronze badges




    19k2 gold badges34 silver badges111 bronze badges















    • Is there any evidence for this claim? It's such a stretch. Seems so much more likely it stopped because the Gra and Arizal opposed it.

      – Double AA
      Aug 9 at 11:32












    • @DoubleAA I have heard that Gra opposed it. Do you have a source? Biur Hagra just writes that is a chumrah be’alma...

      – Joel K
      Aug 9 at 13:16











    • @DoubleAA I second your skepticism. More-so, much before the Arizal even the tune of Eichah for the haftarah was suppressed/disallowed bec. it demonstrates aveilut but full weekday attire was OK? Doesn’t add up. (It points to my assumption here.)

      – Oliver
      Aug 9 at 15:23






    • 1





      @JoelK The Gra’s opposition is also recorded in the Maaseh Rav (§197).

      – Oliver
      Aug 9 at 15:31

















    • Is there any evidence for this claim? It's such a stretch. Seems so much more likely it stopped because the Gra and Arizal opposed it.

      – Double AA
      Aug 9 at 11:32












    • @DoubleAA I have heard that Gra opposed it. Do you have a source? Biur Hagra just writes that is a chumrah be’alma...

      – Joel K
      Aug 9 at 13:16











    • @DoubleAA I second your skepticism. More-so, much before the Arizal even the tune of Eichah for the haftarah was suppressed/disallowed bec. it demonstrates aveilut but full weekday attire was OK? Doesn’t add up. (It points to my assumption here.)

      – Oliver
      Aug 9 at 15:23






    • 1





      @JoelK The Gra’s opposition is also recorded in the Maaseh Rav (§197).

      – Oliver
      Aug 9 at 15:31
















    Is there any evidence for this claim? It's such a stretch. Seems so much more likely it stopped because the Gra and Arizal opposed it.

    – Double AA
    Aug 9 at 11:32






    Is there any evidence for this claim? It's such a stretch. Seems so much more likely it stopped because the Gra and Arizal opposed it.

    – Double AA
    Aug 9 at 11:32














    @DoubleAA I have heard that Gra opposed it. Do you have a source? Biur Hagra just writes that is a chumrah be’alma...

    – Joel K
    Aug 9 at 13:16





    @DoubleAA I have heard that Gra opposed it. Do you have a source? Biur Hagra just writes that is a chumrah be’alma...

    – Joel K
    Aug 9 at 13:16













    @DoubleAA I second your skepticism. More-so, much before the Arizal even the tune of Eichah for the haftarah was suppressed/disallowed bec. it demonstrates aveilut but full weekday attire was OK? Doesn’t add up. (It points to my assumption here.)

    – Oliver
    Aug 9 at 15:23





    @DoubleAA I second your skepticism. More-so, much before the Arizal even the tune of Eichah for the haftarah was suppressed/disallowed bec. it demonstrates aveilut but full weekday attire was OK? Doesn’t add up. (It points to my assumption here.)

    – Oliver
    Aug 9 at 15:23




    1




    1





    @JoelK The Gra’s opposition is also recorded in the Maaseh Rav (§197).

    – Oliver
    Aug 9 at 15:31





    @JoelK The Gra’s opposition is also recorded in the Maaseh Rav (§197).

    – Oliver
    Aug 9 at 15:31













    9













    Aruch HaShulchan 551:11




    ודע שאצלינו יש שנים או שלושה דורות שאין נוהגין כמנהג הזה בשבת חזון,
    אלא לובשין כל בגדי שבת. וגדולי הדור שהיו אז הנהיגו כן, באמרם שזהו
    כמראים אבילות בשבת בפרהסיא.



    It is important to note that for the past two or three generations we
    have not been following this minhag [of wearing weekday clothing] on
    Shabbos Chazon, but we dress like a regular Shabbos. The greats of
    that generation acted thusly by saying that it would be like
    mourning publicly on Shabbos.



    ולכן אפילו בשבת שחל בו תשעה באב ונדחה – אנו לובשין בגדי שבת מטעם זה.
    ולכן בימינו אלה, כמעט נשכח הדבר שאין ללבוש בגדי שבת בשבת חזון.ותמוה
    אצלי דבר זה, דאטו קדמונינו לא ידעו זה? ועם כל זה נהגו בזה, אף שאינו כן
    מדינא; ואיך נבטל מנהגם?



    Therefore, it is for this very reason that even when when Tisha Baav
    falls on Shabbos, we still wear regular Shabbos clothes like normal.
    It therefore seems that this practice of refraining from wearing
    Shabbos clothes on Shabbos Chazon has been very much forgotten these
    days. I personally find this perplexing. Did the ones who originally
    instituted this [practice which Rama is quoting from] not know this?
    Of course they did, and nonetheless acted this way regardless of the
    slight pushing of the law’s boundaries. How, then, can we push away
    their practices?



    ולכן נראה לעניות דעתי דזה תלוי באופן ההלבשה. דאצל הקדמונים היתה הלבשת
    שבת וחול שווים בדמותם ובתמונתם, אלא שההפרש היה בין סחורה יקרה ובין
    סחורה פשוטה, ולא היה ההפרש ניכר כל כך, שהרי עניים גם בשבת יוצאין
    בסחורה פשוטה.



    Therefore, it is my humble opinion that this entire discussion
    revolves around the difference of manner in dressing. The earlier
    generations’ garments were indistinguishable in there appearance
    between Shabbos and weekday. It was only a difference in quality; some
    expensive and some simple. The difference, however, was barely
    intelligible. The poor would even regularly wear the simple-ware on
    Shabbos!



    ולכן הנהיגו ללבוש בגדי חול.מה שאין כן זה כמה דורות מקודם, שבשבת היתה
    תמונה אחרת לגמרי להבגדים, בין עני בין עשיר. כמו שבחול היו נושאין כובע
    של קלאפי"ן, ובשבת שטריימי"ל. וכן שארי בגדים – היה ניכר לכל שזה בגד
    חול, כמו קיטאי"י, וזה בגד שבת, כמו של משי לעשיר, ומשי פשוט לעני.
    ולפיכך הנהיגו הגדולים שלא לנהוג מנהג זה, מפני שההפרש ניכר הרבה, והוי
    כאבילות בשבת.



    Therefore, they were able to wear weekday clothes on Shabbos. This was not the case only a few generations ago. Shabbos clothing had an entirely different look to them regardless of quality and cost. For example, during the week they would wear a kalpin hat, and on Shabbos a shtreimel hat. Weekday garments like kitai, could be easily distinguished between the silk Shabbos garments which both the poor and rich man would wear. This is precisely why they ended this practice, because the difference was now so great that it would be as if they were mourning on Shabbos.



    ולכן אני אומר דבזמנינו זה, שעל פי פקודת המלכות כבר החלפנו תמונת
    הבגדים, ושבת וחול תמונה אחת להן, אלא שההפרש בין זול ליוקר – וודאי נכון
    לקיים מנהג הקדמונים.(כן נראה לעניות דעתי. ודע דזה שנתבאר בסעיף ט דבכל
    חדש אב לישתמט אינש וכו', מבואר בזוהר יתרו דף עח ב דרק עד תשעה באב
    לישתמיט ולא יותר, עיין שם.)



    Therefore, I must end by saying that in our country the standards have been reset through governmental intervention, and our garments are once again indistinguishable. The only differing factor is the price and quality. In my humble opinion, it seems that we should reinstate this practice of yesteryear.







    share|improve this answer































      9













      Aruch HaShulchan 551:11




      ודע שאצלינו יש שנים או שלושה דורות שאין נוהגין כמנהג הזה בשבת חזון,
      אלא לובשין כל בגדי שבת. וגדולי הדור שהיו אז הנהיגו כן, באמרם שזהו
      כמראים אבילות בשבת בפרהסיא.



      It is important to note that for the past two or three generations we
      have not been following this minhag [of wearing weekday clothing] on
      Shabbos Chazon, but we dress like a regular Shabbos. The greats of
      that generation acted thusly by saying that it would be like
      mourning publicly on Shabbos.



      ולכן אפילו בשבת שחל בו תשעה באב ונדחה – אנו לובשין בגדי שבת מטעם זה.
      ולכן בימינו אלה, כמעט נשכח הדבר שאין ללבוש בגדי שבת בשבת חזון.ותמוה
      אצלי דבר זה, דאטו קדמונינו לא ידעו זה? ועם כל זה נהגו בזה, אף שאינו כן
      מדינא; ואיך נבטל מנהגם?



      Therefore, it is for this very reason that even when when Tisha Baav
      falls on Shabbos, we still wear regular Shabbos clothes like normal.
      It therefore seems that this practice of refraining from wearing
      Shabbos clothes on Shabbos Chazon has been very much forgotten these
      days. I personally find this perplexing. Did the ones who originally
      instituted this [practice which Rama is quoting from] not know this?
      Of course they did, and nonetheless acted this way regardless of the
      slight pushing of the law’s boundaries. How, then, can we push away
      their practices?



      ולכן נראה לעניות דעתי דזה תלוי באופן ההלבשה. דאצל הקדמונים היתה הלבשת
      שבת וחול שווים בדמותם ובתמונתם, אלא שההפרש היה בין סחורה יקרה ובין
      סחורה פשוטה, ולא היה ההפרש ניכר כל כך, שהרי עניים גם בשבת יוצאין
      בסחורה פשוטה.



      Therefore, it is my humble opinion that this entire discussion
      revolves around the difference of manner in dressing. The earlier
      generations’ garments were indistinguishable in there appearance
      between Shabbos and weekday. It was only a difference in quality; some
      expensive and some simple. The difference, however, was barely
      intelligible. The poor would even regularly wear the simple-ware on
      Shabbos!



      ולכן הנהיגו ללבוש בגדי חול.מה שאין כן זה כמה דורות מקודם, שבשבת היתה
      תמונה אחרת לגמרי להבגדים, בין עני בין עשיר. כמו שבחול היו נושאין כובע
      של קלאפי"ן, ובשבת שטריימי"ל. וכן שארי בגדים – היה ניכר לכל שזה בגד
      חול, כמו קיטאי"י, וזה בגד שבת, כמו של משי לעשיר, ומשי פשוט לעני.
      ולפיכך הנהיגו הגדולים שלא לנהוג מנהג זה, מפני שההפרש ניכר הרבה, והוי
      כאבילות בשבת.



      Therefore, they were able to wear weekday clothes on Shabbos. This was not the case only a few generations ago. Shabbos clothing had an entirely different look to them regardless of quality and cost. For example, during the week they would wear a kalpin hat, and on Shabbos a shtreimel hat. Weekday garments like kitai, could be easily distinguished between the silk Shabbos garments which both the poor and rich man would wear. This is precisely why they ended this practice, because the difference was now so great that it would be as if they were mourning on Shabbos.



      ולכן אני אומר דבזמנינו זה, שעל פי פקודת המלכות כבר החלפנו תמונת
      הבגדים, ושבת וחול תמונה אחת להן, אלא שההפרש בין זול ליוקר – וודאי נכון
      לקיים מנהג הקדמונים.(כן נראה לעניות דעתי. ודע דזה שנתבאר בסעיף ט דבכל
      חדש אב לישתמט אינש וכו', מבואר בזוהר יתרו דף עח ב דרק עד תשעה באב
      לישתמיט ולא יותר, עיין שם.)



      Therefore, I must end by saying that in our country the standards have been reset through governmental intervention, and our garments are once again indistinguishable. The only differing factor is the price and quality. In my humble opinion, it seems that we should reinstate this practice of yesteryear.







      share|improve this answer





























        9












        9








        9







        Aruch HaShulchan 551:11




        ודע שאצלינו יש שנים או שלושה דורות שאין נוהגין כמנהג הזה בשבת חזון,
        אלא לובשין כל בגדי שבת. וגדולי הדור שהיו אז הנהיגו כן, באמרם שזהו
        כמראים אבילות בשבת בפרהסיא.



        It is important to note that for the past two or three generations we
        have not been following this minhag [of wearing weekday clothing] on
        Shabbos Chazon, but we dress like a regular Shabbos. The greats of
        that generation acted thusly by saying that it would be like
        mourning publicly on Shabbos.



        ולכן אפילו בשבת שחל בו תשעה באב ונדחה – אנו לובשין בגדי שבת מטעם זה.
        ולכן בימינו אלה, כמעט נשכח הדבר שאין ללבוש בגדי שבת בשבת חזון.ותמוה
        אצלי דבר זה, דאטו קדמונינו לא ידעו זה? ועם כל זה נהגו בזה, אף שאינו כן
        מדינא; ואיך נבטל מנהגם?



        Therefore, it is for this very reason that even when when Tisha Baav
        falls on Shabbos, we still wear regular Shabbos clothes like normal.
        It therefore seems that this practice of refraining from wearing
        Shabbos clothes on Shabbos Chazon has been very much forgotten these
        days. I personally find this perplexing. Did the ones who originally
        instituted this [practice which Rama is quoting from] not know this?
        Of course they did, and nonetheless acted this way regardless of the
        slight pushing of the law’s boundaries. How, then, can we push away
        their practices?



        ולכן נראה לעניות דעתי דזה תלוי באופן ההלבשה. דאצל הקדמונים היתה הלבשת
        שבת וחול שווים בדמותם ובתמונתם, אלא שההפרש היה בין סחורה יקרה ובין
        סחורה פשוטה, ולא היה ההפרש ניכר כל כך, שהרי עניים גם בשבת יוצאין
        בסחורה פשוטה.



        Therefore, it is my humble opinion that this entire discussion
        revolves around the difference of manner in dressing. The earlier
        generations’ garments were indistinguishable in there appearance
        between Shabbos and weekday. It was only a difference in quality; some
        expensive and some simple. The difference, however, was barely
        intelligible. The poor would even regularly wear the simple-ware on
        Shabbos!



        ולכן הנהיגו ללבוש בגדי חול.מה שאין כן זה כמה דורות מקודם, שבשבת היתה
        תמונה אחרת לגמרי להבגדים, בין עני בין עשיר. כמו שבחול היו נושאין כובע
        של קלאפי"ן, ובשבת שטריימי"ל. וכן שארי בגדים – היה ניכר לכל שזה בגד
        חול, כמו קיטאי"י, וזה בגד שבת, כמו של משי לעשיר, ומשי פשוט לעני.
        ולפיכך הנהיגו הגדולים שלא לנהוג מנהג זה, מפני שההפרש ניכר הרבה, והוי
        כאבילות בשבת.



        Therefore, they were able to wear weekday clothes on Shabbos. This was not the case only a few generations ago. Shabbos clothing had an entirely different look to them regardless of quality and cost. For example, during the week they would wear a kalpin hat, and on Shabbos a shtreimel hat. Weekday garments like kitai, could be easily distinguished between the silk Shabbos garments which both the poor and rich man would wear. This is precisely why they ended this practice, because the difference was now so great that it would be as if they were mourning on Shabbos.



        ולכן אני אומר דבזמנינו זה, שעל פי פקודת המלכות כבר החלפנו תמונת
        הבגדים, ושבת וחול תמונה אחת להן, אלא שההפרש בין זול ליוקר – וודאי נכון
        לקיים מנהג הקדמונים.(כן נראה לעניות דעתי. ודע דזה שנתבאר בסעיף ט דבכל
        חדש אב לישתמט אינש וכו', מבואר בזוהר יתרו דף עח ב דרק עד תשעה באב
        לישתמיט ולא יותר, עיין שם.)



        Therefore, I must end by saying that in our country the standards have been reset through governmental intervention, and our garments are once again indistinguishable. The only differing factor is the price and quality. In my humble opinion, it seems that we should reinstate this practice of yesteryear.







        share|improve this answer















        Aruch HaShulchan 551:11




        ודע שאצלינו יש שנים או שלושה דורות שאין נוהגין כמנהג הזה בשבת חזון,
        אלא לובשין כל בגדי שבת. וגדולי הדור שהיו אז הנהיגו כן, באמרם שזהו
        כמראים אבילות בשבת בפרהסיא.



        It is important to note that for the past two or three generations we
        have not been following this minhag [of wearing weekday clothing] on
        Shabbos Chazon, but we dress like a regular Shabbos. The greats of
        that generation acted thusly by saying that it would be like
        mourning publicly on Shabbos.



        ולכן אפילו בשבת שחל בו תשעה באב ונדחה – אנו לובשין בגדי שבת מטעם זה.
        ולכן בימינו אלה, כמעט נשכח הדבר שאין ללבוש בגדי שבת בשבת חזון.ותמוה
        אצלי דבר זה, דאטו קדמונינו לא ידעו זה? ועם כל זה נהגו בזה, אף שאינו כן
        מדינא; ואיך נבטל מנהגם?



        Therefore, it is for this very reason that even when when Tisha Baav
        falls on Shabbos, we still wear regular Shabbos clothes like normal.
        It therefore seems that this practice of refraining from wearing
        Shabbos clothes on Shabbos Chazon has been very much forgotten these
        days. I personally find this perplexing. Did the ones who originally
        instituted this [practice which Rama is quoting from] not know this?
        Of course they did, and nonetheless acted this way regardless of the
        slight pushing of the law’s boundaries. How, then, can we push away
        their practices?



        ולכן נראה לעניות דעתי דזה תלוי באופן ההלבשה. דאצל הקדמונים היתה הלבשת
        שבת וחול שווים בדמותם ובתמונתם, אלא שההפרש היה בין סחורה יקרה ובין
        סחורה פשוטה, ולא היה ההפרש ניכר כל כך, שהרי עניים גם בשבת יוצאין
        בסחורה פשוטה.



        Therefore, it is my humble opinion that this entire discussion
        revolves around the difference of manner in dressing. The earlier
        generations’ garments were indistinguishable in there appearance
        between Shabbos and weekday. It was only a difference in quality; some
        expensive and some simple. The difference, however, was barely
        intelligible. The poor would even regularly wear the simple-ware on
        Shabbos!



        ולכן הנהיגו ללבוש בגדי חול.מה שאין כן זה כמה דורות מקודם, שבשבת היתה
        תמונה אחרת לגמרי להבגדים, בין עני בין עשיר. כמו שבחול היו נושאין כובע
        של קלאפי"ן, ובשבת שטריימי"ל. וכן שארי בגדים – היה ניכר לכל שזה בגד
        חול, כמו קיטאי"י, וזה בגד שבת, כמו של משי לעשיר, ומשי פשוט לעני.
        ולפיכך הנהיגו הגדולים שלא לנהוג מנהג זה, מפני שההפרש ניכר הרבה, והוי
        כאבילות בשבת.



        Therefore, they were able to wear weekday clothes on Shabbos. This was not the case only a few generations ago. Shabbos clothing had an entirely different look to them regardless of quality and cost. For example, during the week they would wear a kalpin hat, and on Shabbos a shtreimel hat. Weekday garments like kitai, could be easily distinguished between the silk Shabbos garments which both the poor and rich man would wear. This is precisely why they ended this practice, because the difference was now so great that it would be as if they were mourning on Shabbos.



        ולכן אני אומר דבזמנינו זה, שעל פי פקודת המלכות כבר החלפנו תמונת
        הבגדים, ושבת וחול תמונה אחת להן, אלא שההפרש בין זול ליוקר – וודאי נכון
        לקיים מנהג הקדמונים.(כן נראה לעניות דעתי. ודע דזה שנתבאר בסעיף ט דבכל
        חדש אב לישתמט אינש וכו', מבואר בזוהר יתרו דף עח ב דרק עד תשעה באב
        לישתמיט ולא יותר, עיין שם.)



        Therefore, I must end by saying that in our country the standards have been reset through governmental intervention, and our garments are once again indistinguishable. The only differing factor is the price and quality. In my humble opinion, it seems that we should reinstate this practice of yesteryear.








        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited Aug 12 at 9:00

























        answered Aug 9 at 7:11









        Dr. ShmuelDr. Shmuel

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