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Why did Saruman lie?


Why did Saruman not kill Gandalf?Did Saruman copy from Radagast?Did Saruman rescue Gollum from the Wood-Elves?How did Gandalf elude and puzzle Sauron?Which seven kings does Saruman think Gandalf wants to control?How had Saruman “cheated” Sauron?Why would Gandalf (as ring-lord) be worse than Sauron?How did Saruman first contact Radagast?Did Saruman really make an army of Uruk-Hai in just 10 weeks?






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15















I was looking at this interactive map of Middle-earth, and noticed that when you click on the node at Isengard, one of the dates says:




The Black Riders visit Saruman who lies that Gandalf has "confessed", and gives them directions to the Shire.




(emphasis mine)



Why did he lie? My best guess is that he didn't want Sauron to know that Gandalf had escaped, but surely Sauron would find out at some point?










share|improve this question
































    15















    I was looking at this interactive map of Middle-earth, and noticed that when you click on the node at Isengard, one of the dates says:




    The Black Riders visit Saruman who lies that Gandalf has "confessed", and gives them directions to the Shire.




    (emphasis mine)



    Why did he lie? My best guess is that he didn't want Sauron to know that Gandalf had escaped, but surely Sauron would find out at some point?










    share|improve this question




























      15












      15








      15


      2






      I was looking at this interactive map of Middle-earth, and noticed that when you click on the node at Isengard, one of the dates says:




      The Black Riders visit Saruman who lies that Gandalf has "confessed", and gives them directions to the Shire.




      (emphasis mine)



      Why did he lie? My best guess is that he didn't want Sauron to know that Gandalf had escaped, but surely Sauron would find out at some point?










      share|improve this question
















      I was looking at this interactive map of Middle-earth, and noticed that when you click on the node at Isengard, one of the dates says:




      The Black Riders visit Saruman who lies that Gandalf has "confessed", and gives them directions to the Shire.




      (emphasis mine)



      Why did he lie? My best guess is that he didn't want Sauron to know that Gandalf had escaped, but surely Sauron would find out at some point?







      tolkiens-legendarium the-lord-of-the-rings the-fellowship-of-the-ring






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited Aug 13 at 8:57









      Edlothiad

      56.4k21 gold badges296 silver badges305 bronze badges




      56.4k21 gold badges296 silver badges305 bronze badges










      asked Aug 13 at 8:47









      ParrotmasterParrotmaster

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      1,8343 gold badges13 silver badges18 bronze badges























          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          38















          The note seems to come from a quote in the Unfinished Tales in a section titled "Other Versions of the Story" in the chapter "The Hunt for the Ring". The quote is as follows:




          He went back to the Gate, and he lied, saying that he had made Gandalf confess. He did not admit that this was his own knowledge, not being aware of how much Sauron knew of his mind and heart.
          Unfinished Tales: Part Three: The Third Age, IV: The Hunt for the Ring, Other Versions of the Story




          To provide context for the quote. The version of the story it comes from is labelled "Version C", in which (unlike A and B) Gandalf is still a prisoner at the time of the Nazgûl arriving at the gates of Orthanc. In C, Saruman is prepared to yield to Gandalf and beg for his help as he perceives the full horror of being in service to the Dark Tower. Saruman tells the Nazgûl "that he would go and try to discover what he knew; if that were unavailing, he would deliver Gandalf up to them." However, upon is return to the top of Orthanc, Saruman discovers Gandalf has escaped.



          Saruman's lie seems to come as a combination of not wanting Sauron to know that he has lost Gandalf, not wanting Sauron to know that he was aware of the whereabouts of the Shire and searching for the Ring himself, and not wanting Sauron to know that he was willing to forgo service to him in exchange for aid from Gandalf.



          The above quote comes with the following note:




          Earlier in this version it is said that Sauron had at this time, by means of the palantíri, at last begun to daunt Saruman, and could in any case often read his thought even when he withheld information. Thus Sauron was aware that Saruman had some guess at the place where the Ring was; and Saruman actually revealed that he had got as his prisoner Gandalf, who knew the most.
          ibid.




          The note isn't overly informative but tells us that whatever lies Saruman tells it is most likely that through the palantíri Sauron can perceive the truth.



          In fact it is, again unlike A and B, not Gríma who reveals Saruman's lies but a Dunlending
          spy of Saruman's:




          This Dunlending was overtaken by several of the Black Riders as they approached the Tharbad crossing. In an extremity of terror he was haled to the Witch-king and questioned. He saved his life by betraying Saruman. The Witch-king thus learned that Saruman knew well all along where the Shire was, and knew much about it, which he could and should have told to Sauron’s servants if he had been a true ally.
          ibid.







          share|improve this answer
































            2















            Saruman wanted to work together with Sauron, at least until he could get his hands on the One Ring, when he would ditch Sauron.



            Saruman's first mission from Sauron is to capture Gandalf and remove him as an obstacle, by either killing him, imprisoning him or making him join the cause with Sauron. Gandalf escaping goes against that mission, makes Saruman look like a failure and might give Sauron certain... ideas. Ideas Saruman doesn't want him to have.






            share|improve this answer




















            • 9





              You should provide sources for your answer, as of now it seems quite speculative

              – Edlothiad
              Aug 13 at 12:11













            Your Answer








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            2 Answers
            2






            active

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            2 Answers
            2






            active

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            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            38















            The note seems to come from a quote in the Unfinished Tales in a section titled "Other Versions of the Story" in the chapter "The Hunt for the Ring". The quote is as follows:




            He went back to the Gate, and he lied, saying that he had made Gandalf confess. He did not admit that this was his own knowledge, not being aware of how much Sauron knew of his mind and heart.
            Unfinished Tales: Part Three: The Third Age, IV: The Hunt for the Ring, Other Versions of the Story




            To provide context for the quote. The version of the story it comes from is labelled "Version C", in which (unlike A and B) Gandalf is still a prisoner at the time of the Nazgûl arriving at the gates of Orthanc. In C, Saruman is prepared to yield to Gandalf and beg for his help as he perceives the full horror of being in service to the Dark Tower. Saruman tells the Nazgûl "that he would go and try to discover what he knew; if that were unavailing, he would deliver Gandalf up to them." However, upon is return to the top of Orthanc, Saruman discovers Gandalf has escaped.



            Saruman's lie seems to come as a combination of not wanting Sauron to know that he has lost Gandalf, not wanting Sauron to know that he was aware of the whereabouts of the Shire and searching for the Ring himself, and not wanting Sauron to know that he was willing to forgo service to him in exchange for aid from Gandalf.



            The above quote comes with the following note:




            Earlier in this version it is said that Sauron had at this time, by means of the palantíri, at last begun to daunt Saruman, and could in any case often read his thought even when he withheld information. Thus Sauron was aware that Saruman had some guess at the place where the Ring was; and Saruman actually revealed that he had got as his prisoner Gandalf, who knew the most.
            ibid.




            The note isn't overly informative but tells us that whatever lies Saruman tells it is most likely that through the palantíri Sauron can perceive the truth.



            In fact it is, again unlike A and B, not Gríma who reveals Saruman's lies but a Dunlending
            spy of Saruman's:




            This Dunlending was overtaken by several of the Black Riders as they approached the Tharbad crossing. In an extremity of terror he was haled to the Witch-king and questioned. He saved his life by betraying Saruman. The Witch-king thus learned that Saruman knew well all along where the Shire was, and knew much about it, which he could and should have told to Sauron’s servants if he had been a true ally.
            ibid.







            share|improve this answer





























              38















              The note seems to come from a quote in the Unfinished Tales in a section titled "Other Versions of the Story" in the chapter "The Hunt for the Ring". The quote is as follows:




              He went back to the Gate, and he lied, saying that he had made Gandalf confess. He did not admit that this was his own knowledge, not being aware of how much Sauron knew of his mind and heart.
              Unfinished Tales: Part Three: The Third Age, IV: The Hunt for the Ring, Other Versions of the Story




              To provide context for the quote. The version of the story it comes from is labelled "Version C", in which (unlike A and B) Gandalf is still a prisoner at the time of the Nazgûl arriving at the gates of Orthanc. In C, Saruman is prepared to yield to Gandalf and beg for his help as he perceives the full horror of being in service to the Dark Tower. Saruman tells the Nazgûl "that he would go and try to discover what he knew; if that were unavailing, he would deliver Gandalf up to them." However, upon is return to the top of Orthanc, Saruman discovers Gandalf has escaped.



              Saruman's lie seems to come as a combination of not wanting Sauron to know that he has lost Gandalf, not wanting Sauron to know that he was aware of the whereabouts of the Shire and searching for the Ring himself, and not wanting Sauron to know that he was willing to forgo service to him in exchange for aid from Gandalf.



              The above quote comes with the following note:




              Earlier in this version it is said that Sauron had at this time, by means of the palantíri, at last begun to daunt Saruman, and could in any case often read his thought even when he withheld information. Thus Sauron was aware that Saruman had some guess at the place where the Ring was; and Saruman actually revealed that he had got as his prisoner Gandalf, who knew the most.
              ibid.




              The note isn't overly informative but tells us that whatever lies Saruman tells it is most likely that through the palantíri Sauron can perceive the truth.



              In fact it is, again unlike A and B, not Gríma who reveals Saruman's lies but a Dunlending
              spy of Saruman's:




              This Dunlending was overtaken by several of the Black Riders as they approached the Tharbad crossing. In an extremity of terror he was haled to the Witch-king and questioned. He saved his life by betraying Saruman. The Witch-king thus learned that Saruman knew well all along where the Shire was, and knew much about it, which he could and should have told to Sauron’s servants if he had been a true ally.
              ibid.







              share|improve this answer



























                38














                38










                38









                The note seems to come from a quote in the Unfinished Tales in a section titled "Other Versions of the Story" in the chapter "The Hunt for the Ring". The quote is as follows:




                He went back to the Gate, and he lied, saying that he had made Gandalf confess. He did not admit that this was his own knowledge, not being aware of how much Sauron knew of his mind and heart.
                Unfinished Tales: Part Three: The Third Age, IV: The Hunt for the Ring, Other Versions of the Story




                To provide context for the quote. The version of the story it comes from is labelled "Version C", in which (unlike A and B) Gandalf is still a prisoner at the time of the Nazgûl arriving at the gates of Orthanc. In C, Saruman is prepared to yield to Gandalf and beg for his help as he perceives the full horror of being in service to the Dark Tower. Saruman tells the Nazgûl "that he would go and try to discover what he knew; if that were unavailing, he would deliver Gandalf up to them." However, upon is return to the top of Orthanc, Saruman discovers Gandalf has escaped.



                Saruman's lie seems to come as a combination of not wanting Sauron to know that he has lost Gandalf, not wanting Sauron to know that he was aware of the whereabouts of the Shire and searching for the Ring himself, and not wanting Sauron to know that he was willing to forgo service to him in exchange for aid from Gandalf.



                The above quote comes with the following note:




                Earlier in this version it is said that Sauron had at this time, by means of the palantíri, at last begun to daunt Saruman, and could in any case often read his thought even when he withheld information. Thus Sauron was aware that Saruman had some guess at the place where the Ring was; and Saruman actually revealed that he had got as his prisoner Gandalf, who knew the most.
                ibid.




                The note isn't overly informative but tells us that whatever lies Saruman tells it is most likely that through the palantíri Sauron can perceive the truth.



                In fact it is, again unlike A and B, not Gríma who reveals Saruman's lies but a Dunlending
                spy of Saruman's:




                This Dunlending was overtaken by several of the Black Riders as they approached the Tharbad crossing. In an extremity of terror he was haled to the Witch-king and questioned. He saved his life by betraying Saruman. The Witch-king thus learned that Saruman knew well all along where the Shire was, and knew much about it, which he could and should have told to Sauron’s servants if he had been a true ally.
                ibid.







                share|improve this answer













                The note seems to come from a quote in the Unfinished Tales in a section titled "Other Versions of the Story" in the chapter "The Hunt for the Ring". The quote is as follows:




                He went back to the Gate, and he lied, saying that he had made Gandalf confess. He did not admit that this was his own knowledge, not being aware of how much Sauron knew of his mind and heart.
                Unfinished Tales: Part Three: The Third Age, IV: The Hunt for the Ring, Other Versions of the Story




                To provide context for the quote. The version of the story it comes from is labelled "Version C", in which (unlike A and B) Gandalf is still a prisoner at the time of the Nazgûl arriving at the gates of Orthanc. In C, Saruman is prepared to yield to Gandalf and beg for his help as he perceives the full horror of being in service to the Dark Tower. Saruman tells the Nazgûl "that he would go and try to discover what he knew; if that were unavailing, he would deliver Gandalf up to them." However, upon is return to the top of Orthanc, Saruman discovers Gandalf has escaped.



                Saruman's lie seems to come as a combination of not wanting Sauron to know that he has lost Gandalf, not wanting Sauron to know that he was aware of the whereabouts of the Shire and searching for the Ring himself, and not wanting Sauron to know that he was willing to forgo service to him in exchange for aid from Gandalf.



                The above quote comes with the following note:




                Earlier in this version it is said that Sauron had at this time, by means of the palantíri, at last begun to daunt Saruman, and could in any case often read his thought even when he withheld information. Thus Sauron was aware that Saruman had some guess at the place where the Ring was; and Saruman actually revealed that he had got as his prisoner Gandalf, who knew the most.
                ibid.




                The note isn't overly informative but tells us that whatever lies Saruman tells it is most likely that through the palantíri Sauron can perceive the truth.



                In fact it is, again unlike A and B, not Gríma who reveals Saruman's lies but a Dunlending
                spy of Saruman's:




                This Dunlending was overtaken by several of the Black Riders as they approached the Tharbad crossing. In an extremity of terror he was haled to the Witch-king and questioned. He saved his life by betraying Saruman. The Witch-king thus learned that Saruman knew well all along where the Shire was, and knew much about it, which he could and should have told to Sauron’s servants if he had been a true ally.
                ibid.








                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered Aug 13 at 9:25









                EdlothiadEdlothiad

                56.4k21 gold badges296 silver badges305 bronze badges




                56.4k21 gold badges296 silver badges305 bronze badges


























                    2















                    Saruman wanted to work together with Sauron, at least until he could get his hands on the One Ring, when he would ditch Sauron.



                    Saruman's first mission from Sauron is to capture Gandalf and remove him as an obstacle, by either killing him, imprisoning him or making him join the cause with Sauron. Gandalf escaping goes against that mission, makes Saruman look like a failure and might give Sauron certain... ideas. Ideas Saruman doesn't want him to have.






                    share|improve this answer




















                    • 9





                      You should provide sources for your answer, as of now it seems quite speculative

                      – Edlothiad
                      Aug 13 at 12:11















                    2















                    Saruman wanted to work together with Sauron, at least until he could get his hands on the One Ring, when he would ditch Sauron.



                    Saruman's first mission from Sauron is to capture Gandalf and remove him as an obstacle, by either killing him, imprisoning him or making him join the cause with Sauron. Gandalf escaping goes against that mission, makes Saruman look like a failure and might give Sauron certain... ideas. Ideas Saruman doesn't want him to have.






                    share|improve this answer




















                    • 9





                      You should provide sources for your answer, as of now it seems quite speculative

                      – Edlothiad
                      Aug 13 at 12:11













                    2














                    2










                    2









                    Saruman wanted to work together with Sauron, at least until he could get his hands on the One Ring, when he would ditch Sauron.



                    Saruman's first mission from Sauron is to capture Gandalf and remove him as an obstacle, by either killing him, imprisoning him or making him join the cause with Sauron. Gandalf escaping goes against that mission, makes Saruman look like a failure and might give Sauron certain... ideas. Ideas Saruman doesn't want him to have.






                    share|improve this answer













                    Saruman wanted to work together with Sauron, at least until he could get his hands on the One Ring, when he would ditch Sauron.



                    Saruman's first mission from Sauron is to capture Gandalf and remove him as an obstacle, by either killing him, imprisoning him or making him join the cause with Sauron. Gandalf escaping goes against that mission, makes Saruman look like a failure and might give Sauron certain... ideas. Ideas Saruman doesn't want him to have.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered Aug 13 at 9:13









                    jo1stormjo1storm

                    4,31414 silver badges33 bronze badges




                    4,31414 silver badges33 bronze badges










                    • 9





                      You should provide sources for your answer, as of now it seems quite speculative

                      – Edlothiad
                      Aug 13 at 12:11












                    • 9





                      You should provide sources for your answer, as of now it seems quite speculative

                      – Edlothiad
                      Aug 13 at 12:11







                    9




                    9





                    You should provide sources for your answer, as of now it seems quite speculative

                    – Edlothiad
                    Aug 13 at 12:11





                    You should provide sources for your answer, as of now it seems quite speculative

                    – Edlothiad
                    Aug 13 at 12:11

















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