What is the steepest gradient that a canal can be traversable without locks? The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InEffects of a river that flows through the air to a desert mountain?What would be a series of events such that modern adolescence isn't altered much if every human gained the ability to travel through shadows?What are some of the reasons for a river to split?What kind of land transportation can be used for plowing through hordes of zombies?can the same river be deep and fordableWhat are some ways that the environment might affect products being shipped in medieval times?An infinite train circling the planet that never stopsPropulsion for destinations within the solar system that only takes hours (or less), not days, or months?In a world without any beasts of burden, what alternatives for transport are there?Can there be a long-range railway system without industrialisation?

Is it safe to harvest rainwater that fell on solar panels?

Kerning for subscripts of sigma?

Getting crown tickets for Statue of Liberty

How do I free up internal storage if I don't have any apps downloaded?

Why couldn't they take pictures of a closer black hole?

How did passengers keep warm on sail ships?

What is the motivation for a law requiring 2 parties to consent for recording a conversation

RequirePermission not working

Did any laptop computers have a built-in 5 1/4 inch floppy drive?

Why didn't the Event Horizon Telescope team mention Sagittarius A*?

How to quickly solve partial fractions equation?

What information about me do stores get via my credit card?

Why was M87 targeted for the Event Horizon Telescope instead of Sagittarius A*?

Button changing its text & action. Good or terrible?

If my opponent casts Ultimate Price on my Phantasmal Bear, can I save it by casting Snap or Curfew?

For what reasons would an animal species NOT cross a *horizontal* land bridge?

What to do when moving next to a bird sanctuary with a loosely-domesticated cat?

What do hard-Brexiteers want with respect to the Irish border?

Mathematics of imaging the black hole

Why does the nucleus not repel itself?

How to obtain a position of last non-zero element

What does もの mean in this sentence?

Ubuntu Server install with full GUI

Worn-tile Scrabble



What is the steepest gradient that a canal can be traversable without locks?



The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InEffects of a river that flows through the air to a desert mountain?What would be a series of events such that modern adolescence isn't altered much if every human gained the ability to travel through shadows?What are some of the reasons for a river to split?What kind of land transportation can be used for plowing through hordes of zombies?can the same river be deep and fordableWhat are some ways that the environment might affect products being shipped in medieval times?An infinite train circling the planet that never stopsPropulsion for destinations within the solar system that only takes hours (or less), not days, or months?In a world without any beasts of burden, what alternatives for transport are there?Can there be a long-range railway system without industrialisation?










15












$begingroup$


For a civilization that depends heavily on canals for transportation, what limits are there on how steep canals can before they flow too fast to traverse? I know that barges were normally pulled by animals upriver, if winds were unfavorable, so would the maximum slope of the canal depend on how strong the beasts of burden are? It would be neat to be able to calculate the slope in like meters dropped per kilometer in a general sense.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 14




    $begingroup$
    Going downstream, you could go all the way to 90 degrees if you wanted to. White water rafting with cargo.
    $endgroup$
    – Tim B II
    Apr 8 at 23:39






  • 13




    $begingroup$
    You can be the first on the pulleys to lift the barge back up the cliff.
    $endgroup$
    – GiruŠatuku
    Apr 8 at 23:41






  • 10




    $begingroup$
    It isn't having to go uphill that would be the problem. The real problem would be the speed of the water rushing downhill. As soon as that speed gets anywhere near the speed of your boat, your're not going to go anywhere. And it doesn't take much of an angle to make water flow quickly. If you can notice a slope, you're not going to be sailing up it. The Mississippi is long and navigable, and it rises only .12m per kilometre. That's .012%. The purpose of locks is to eliminate the slope.
    $endgroup$
    – Ray Butterworth
    Apr 9 at 2:24






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    This seems to be what you want : lmnoeng.com/Channels/trapezoid.php
    $endgroup$
    – Ville Niemi
    Apr 9 at 4:26






  • 25




    $begingroup$
    The problem is never how hard it is to pull barges upstream, the problem is always how to keep the canal filled with water. If the canal has any amount of appreciable slope water will flow downhill. Where does the water come from?
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    2 days ago
















15












$begingroup$


For a civilization that depends heavily on canals for transportation, what limits are there on how steep canals can before they flow too fast to traverse? I know that barges were normally pulled by animals upriver, if winds were unfavorable, so would the maximum slope of the canal depend on how strong the beasts of burden are? It would be neat to be able to calculate the slope in like meters dropped per kilometer in a general sense.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 14




    $begingroup$
    Going downstream, you could go all the way to 90 degrees if you wanted to. White water rafting with cargo.
    $endgroup$
    – Tim B II
    Apr 8 at 23:39






  • 13




    $begingroup$
    You can be the first on the pulleys to lift the barge back up the cliff.
    $endgroup$
    – GiruŠatuku
    Apr 8 at 23:41






  • 10




    $begingroup$
    It isn't having to go uphill that would be the problem. The real problem would be the speed of the water rushing downhill. As soon as that speed gets anywhere near the speed of your boat, your're not going to go anywhere. And it doesn't take much of an angle to make water flow quickly. If you can notice a slope, you're not going to be sailing up it. The Mississippi is long and navigable, and it rises only .12m per kilometre. That's .012%. The purpose of locks is to eliminate the slope.
    $endgroup$
    – Ray Butterworth
    Apr 9 at 2:24






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    This seems to be what you want : lmnoeng.com/Channels/trapezoid.php
    $endgroup$
    – Ville Niemi
    Apr 9 at 4:26






  • 25




    $begingroup$
    The problem is never how hard it is to pull barges upstream, the problem is always how to keep the canal filled with water. If the canal has any amount of appreciable slope water will flow downhill. Where does the water come from?
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    2 days ago














15












15








15


1



$begingroup$


For a civilization that depends heavily on canals for transportation, what limits are there on how steep canals can before they flow too fast to traverse? I know that barges were normally pulled by animals upriver, if winds were unfavorable, so would the maximum slope of the canal depend on how strong the beasts of burden are? It would be neat to be able to calculate the slope in like meters dropped per kilometer in a general sense.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




For a civilization that depends heavily on canals for transportation, what limits are there on how steep canals can before they flow too fast to traverse? I know that barges were normally pulled by animals upriver, if winds were unfavorable, so would the maximum slope of the canal depend on how strong the beasts of burden are? It would be neat to be able to calculate the slope in like meters dropped per kilometer in a general sense.







transportation rivers






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited yesterday









smci

1798




1798










asked Apr 8 at 23:36









GiruŠatukuGiruŠatuku

13219




13219







  • 14




    $begingroup$
    Going downstream, you could go all the way to 90 degrees if you wanted to. White water rafting with cargo.
    $endgroup$
    – Tim B II
    Apr 8 at 23:39






  • 13




    $begingroup$
    You can be the first on the pulleys to lift the barge back up the cliff.
    $endgroup$
    – GiruŠatuku
    Apr 8 at 23:41






  • 10




    $begingroup$
    It isn't having to go uphill that would be the problem. The real problem would be the speed of the water rushing downhill. As soon as that speed gets anywhere near the speed of your boat, your're not going to go anywhere. And it doesn't take much of an angle to make water flow quickly. If you can notice a slope, you're not going to be sailing up it. The Mississippi is long and navigable, and it rises only .12m per kilometre. That's .012%. The purpose of locks is to eliminate the slope.
    $endgroup$
    – Ray Butterworth
    Apr 9 at 2:24






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    This seems to be what you want : lmnoeng.com/Channels/trapezoid.php
    $endgroup$
    – Ville Niemi
    Apr 9 at 4:26






  • 25




    $begingroup$
    The problem is never how hard it is to pull barges upstream, the problem is always how to keep the canal filled with water. If the canal has any amount of appreciable slope water will flow downhill. Where does the water come from?
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    2 days ago













  • 14




    $begingroup$
    Going downstream, you could go all the way to 90 degrees if you wanted to. White water rafting with cargo.
    $endgroup$
    – Tim B II
    Apr 8 at 23:39






  • 13




    $begingroup$
    You can be the first on the pulleys to lift the barge back up the cliff.
    $endgroup$
    – GiruŠatuku
    Apr 8 at 23:41






  • 10




    $begingroup$
    It isn't having to go uphill that would be the problem. The real problem would be the speed of the water rushing downhill. As soon as that speed gets anywhere near the speed of your boat, your're not going to go anywhere. And it doesn't take much of an angle to make water flow quickly. If you can notice a slope, you're not going to be sailing up it. The Mississippi is long and navigable, and it rises only .12m per kilometre. That's .012%. The purpose of locks is to eliminate the slope.
    $endgroup$
    – Ray Butterworth
    Apr 9 at 2:24






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    This seems to be what you want : lmnoeng.com/Channels/trapezoid.php
    $endgroup$
    – Ville Niemi
    Apr 9 at 4:26






  • 25




    $begingroup$
    The problem is never how hard it is to pull barges upstream, the problem is always how to keep the canal filled with water. If the canal has any amount of appreciable slope water will flow downhill. Where does the water come from?
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    2 days ago








14




14




$begingroup$
Going downstream, you could go all the way to 90 degrees if you wanted to. White water rafting with cargo.
$endgroup$
– Tim B II
Apr 8 at 23:39




$begingroup$
Going downstream, you could go all the way to 90 degrees if you wanted to. White water rafting with cargo.
$endgroup$
– Tim B II
Apr 8 at 23:39




13




13




$begingroup$
You can be the first on the pulleys to lift the barge back up the cliff.
$endgroup$
– GiruŠatuku
Apr 8 at 23:41




$begingroup$
You can be the first on the pulleys to lift the barge back up the cliff.
$endgroup$
– GiruŠatuku
Apr 8 at 23:41




10




10




$begingroup$
It isn't having to go uphill that would be the problem. The real problem would be the speed of the water rushing downhill. As soon as that speed gets anywhere near the speed of your boat, your're not going to go anywhere. And it doesn't take much of an angle to make water flow quickly. If you can notice a slope, you're not going to be sailing up it. The Mississippi is long and navigable, and it rises only .12m per kilometre. That's .012%. The purpose of locks is to eliminate the slope.
$endgroup$
– Ray Butterworth
Apr 9 at 2:24




$begingroup$
It isn't having to go uphill that would be the problem. The real problem would be the speed of the water rushing downhill. As soon as that speed gets anywhere near the speed of your boat, your're not going to go anywhere. And it doesn't take much of an angle to make water flow quickly. If you can notice a slope, you're not going to be sailing up it. The Mississippi is long and navigable, and it rises only .12m per kilometre. That's .012%. The purpose of locks is to eliminate the slope.
$endgroup$
– Ray Butterworth
Apr 9 at 2:24




3




3




$begingroup$
This seems to be what you want : lmnoeng.com/Channels/trapezoid.php
$endgroup$
– Ville Niemi
Apr 9 at 4:26




$begingroup$
This seems to be what you want : lmnoeng.com/Channels/trapezoid.php
$endgroup$
– Ville Niemi
Apr 9 at 4:26




25




25




$begingroup$
The problem is never how hard it is to pull barges upstream, the problem is always how to keep the canal filled with water. If the canal has any amount of appreciable slope water will flow downhill. Where does the water come from?
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 days ago





$begingroup$
The problem is never how hard it is to pull barges upstream, the problem is always how to keep the canal filled with water. If the canal has any amount of appreciable slope water will flow downhill. Where does the water come from?
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 days ago











6 Answers
6






active

oldest

votes


















53












$begingroup$

A canal with a gradient and a flow is a river. And navigatable rivers are pretty much flat. Taking a nearby river (the Medway) and measuring the change in height from the coast to the point at which it becomes essentially unnavigatable gives an average gradient of 0.0003 or about 30cm per kilometer. Wider rivers have lower gradients. The Mississippi has a gradient of about 1cm per km, yet still flows pretty quickly



If you have a flowing canal, you need a constant source of water. This is why canals use locks. Don't design canals as rivers, unless you already have a river to redirect through it.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 5




    $begingroup$
    And here I was going to suggest canals filled with high-viscosity fluid, thus greatly diminishing the flow rate. Just coat your barges with some magic fluid-phobic material so there's no friction resistance.
    $endgroup$
    – Carl Witthoft
    2 days ago






  • 48




    $begingroup$
    @CarlWitthoft Traditionally one uses the highly viscous fluid called asphalt for this, I'm just not sure if wheels count as magic friction reducing material...
    $endgroup$
    – mlk
    2 days ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    If you have two bodies of water at different heights, then the higher one will supply the water.
    $endgroup$
    – Acccumulation
    2 days ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Having a flowing canal isn't a goal, it's an unfortunate consequence of having to move between two bodies of water at different heights.
    $endgroup$
    – Brilliand
    2 days ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Acccumulation And what happens when that body of water is empty?
    $endgroup$
    – immibis
    2 days ago


















14












$begingroup$


The Suez Canal is an artificial waterway of about 190 km in length running across the Isthmus of Suez in northeastern Egypt which connects the Mediterranean Seas with the Gulf of Suez, an arm of the Red Sea. It has no locks, because the Mediterranean Sea and the Gulf of Suez have roughly the same water level and is thus the world's longest canal without locks. (Source)



Karakum Canal without locks in Russia is the longest canal in the world with a total length of 1400 kilometer. It was built in 1954 and completed in 1967 having a length of 840 kilometers and further extended in 1970 and 80s up to Caspian Sea coast making its total length of 1400 kilometers. (Source)




To answer your question, 0°.



The differences in "sea level altitude" between the sources and destinations of these bodies varies naturally according to the tide, but the canals are dug such that those variations are accommodated within the canal — which can only be done when the source and destination altitudes are fundamentally equal.



There is obviously some small amount of ascent/descent or the canals/rivers used for cargo transport wouldn't have a current. But that ascent/descent need not (and almost always is not) a condition of the path being traveled by the cargo ships. For example, the Mississippi has nearly all of its descent in its northern most reaches. By the time you get to the majority of shipping in the southern U.S., it's basically flat. The current is caused by water pressure from the north.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    I don't think the OP is asking about sea canals; more the medieval style "river canals". They definitely have different water levels across the length of the canal, though obviously, they also used a lot of locks. 2° is the kind of grade that already gives trouble to rail traffic, I'd expect a navigable river/canal system would be substantially below 1°, especially without powered boats. Many navigable rivers have gradients in tens of centimeters per kilometer. And of course, even if a gradient is technically possible, at some point land traffic is going to be more economical anyway.
    $endgroup$
    – Luaan
    2 days ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    @jwenting uh, yeah you could. Literally all rivers have that. And what are canals if not redirected rivers or lakes?
    $endgroup$
    – Hobbamok
    2 days ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @Hobbamok you could not, unless you want to drain one end of the canal into the other. A river has something where the water originates, or it'd run dry. Canals with a grade would drain whatever is at their high point into whatever is at their low point. Which can drain entire lakes.
    $endgroup$
    – jwenting
    2 days ago






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    1 degree is a 1:60 gradient, or 16m per km - that's around 100 times steeper than most navigable rivers.
    $endgroup$
    – Robin Bennett
    2 days ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    "The current is caused by water pressure from the north." [citation needed] This isn't a pipeline.
    $endgroup$
    – Yakk
    2 days ago



















7












$begingroup$

The gradient should be 0, UNLESS the high end of the canal has a flow rate high enough to compensate for the amount of water being drained from it by the canal into the low end.



Which for any decent sized canal would be a lot indeed and probably make the upstream end of the canal hazardous for shipping because of the rapids.



This is simple physics. Water (as any liquid really) want to establish equilibrium, meaning the surface wants to be flat and level. Thus it flows from high to low until equilibrium is established, both vessels having the same water level.



The only way to thus have a canal with one end higher than the other without an artificial barrier (a lock) in it is to ensure that the high end gains water as fast as the canal can drain it.



In theory of course you could calculate the exact drainage and pump water out of the low end at that rate, back into the high end. But locks would be much easier, cheaper, and more reliable.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    * where "flat" and "level" are non-technical terms referring to the imperceptible curve that water follows to maintain an equal gravitational potential...
    $endgroup$
    – JCRM
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    You don't need a pump, if natural processes are filling it up. And even if there's a net flow, it can still take years to level off, if the flow is small enough and the volume is large enough.
    $endgroup$
    – Acccumulation
    2 days ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Acccumulation A canal dependent civilisation, requires functional canals. Investing in a Canal that would suffer at the hands of intermittent weather, or potentially would ruin the already established network of canals is a bad investment. It would be like investing in a rail line which would work fine for the next 10 years except for droughts, and will prevent any trains on linked rails from running after that. Requiring either a massive refurbishment program or new technology to fix.
    $endgroup$
    – Kain0_0
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    @Kain0_0 I'm taking the the desire for flow to be motivated by out-of-universe plot reasons, and not an in-universe desire of the characters. And according to this article, it would take the Amazon six years to empty a body of water the size of the Mediterranean Sea. So if you had a canal with a flow one hundredth of the Amazon, it would take six hundred years. And with rain, it wouldn't suffer at the hand of intermittent weather, since it would take six hundred years of drought to empty it.
    $endgroup$
    – Acccumulation
    yesterday


















1












$begingroup$

Your only limiter is how much your beasts of burden can drag up river. This is less dependent on slope than it is on the speed of flow and shape of the hull. Personally I'd favour double hulled boats if your channel is wide enough, they cut through water pretty well while giving you width for cargo space. Whereas a similar single hull would probably need to be a long thin boat in a heavy current.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    So, the more hydrodynamic the boat hull is, the easier it is to be pulled through the water. That sort of makes sense.
    $endgroup$
    – GiruŠatuku
    2 days ago






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    The limiter is that the water will flow out of your canal at the bottom end leaving it empty of water, unless it is refilled at the top, in which case it is a river.
    $endgroup$
    – rghome
    2 days ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    If you're talking about a catamaran, they're generally referred to as twin-hulled. "Double hull" generally refers to a hull inside a hull.
    $endgroup$
    – Acccumulation
    2 days ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Acccumulation maybe where you come from, over here no, and I'm Polynesian, we invented these vessels over 2000 years ago.
    $endgroup$
    – Kilisi
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Kilisi "Hull" is not a Polynesian term. While "double hull" can refer to catamarans, "twin-hulled" is significantly less ambiguous.
    $endgroup$
    – Acccumulation
    yesterday


















1












$begingroup$

I wonder if Tesla valve-shaped channel would work for you. It can make flow 10-100 times slower than unimpeded one, so I guess in theory 1/10 gradient would become possible. But it works best with pulsed flow and when covered so I am not sure if it would work in this case.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$




















    0












    $begingroup$

    If your canal empties into the Bay of Fundy, you've got fifty feet of vertical displacement to work with, thanks to the tides.



    You can achieve whatever angle you might fancy by varying the length of your canal.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













      Your Answer





      StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
      return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
      StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
      StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
      );
      );
      , "mathjax-editing");

      StackExchange.ready(function()
      var channelOptions =
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "579"
      ;
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
      createEditor();
      );

      else
      createEditor();

      );

      function createEditor()
      StackExchange.prepareEditor(
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
      convertImagesToLinks: false,
      noModals: true,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: null,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      imageUploader:
      brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
      contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
      allowUrls: true
      ,
      noCode: true, onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      );



      );













      draft saved

      draft discarded


















      StackExchange.ready(
      function ()
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworldbuilding.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f143526%2fwhat-is-the-steepest-gradient-that-a-canal-can-be-traversable-without-locks%23new-answer', 'question_page');

      );

      Post as a guest















      Required, but never shown

























      6 Answers
      6






      active

      oldest

      votes








      6 Answers
      6






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      53












      $begingroup$

      A canal with a gradient and a flow is a river. And navigatable rivers are pretty much flat. Taking a nearby river (the Medway) and measuring the change in height from the coast to the point at which it becomes essentially unnavigatable gives an average gradient of 0.0003 or about 30cm per kilometer. Wider rivers have lower gradients. The Mississippi has a gradient of about 1cm per km, yet still flows pretty quickly



      If you have a flowing canal, you need a constant source of water. This is why canals use locks. Don't design canals as rivers, unless you already have a river to redirect through it.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$








      • 5




        $begingroup$
        And here I was going to suggest canals filled with high-viscosity fluid, thus greatly diminishing the flow rate. Just coat your barges with some magic fluid-phobic material so there's no friction resistance.
        $endgroup$
        – Carl Witthoft
        2 days ago






      • 48




        $begingroup$
        @CarlWitthoft Traditionally one uses the highly viscous fluid called asphalt for this, I'm just not sure if wheels count as magic friction reducing material...
        $endgroup$
        – mlk
        2 days ago






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        If you have two bodies of water at different heights, then the higher one will supply the water.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        2 days ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Having a flowing canal isn't a goal, it's an unfortunate consequence of having to move between two bodies of water at different heights.
        $endgroup$
        – Brilliand
        2 days ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Acccumulation And what happens when that body of water is empty?
        $endgroup$
        – immibis
        2 days ago















      53












      $begingroup$

      A canal with a gradient and a flow is a river. And navigatable rivers are pretty much flat. Taking a nearby river (the Medway) and measuring the change in height from the coast to the point at which it becomes essentially unnavigatable gives an average gradient of 0.0003 or about 30cm per kilometer. Wider rivers have lower gradients. The Mississippi has a gradient of about 1cm per km, yet still flows pretty quickly



      If you have a flowing canal, you need a constant source of water. This is why canals use locks. Don't design canals as rivers, unless you already have a river to redirect through it.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$








      • 5




        $begingroup$
        And here I was going to suggest canals filled with high-viscosity fluid, thus greatly diminishing the flow rate. Just coat your barges with some magic fluid-phobic material so there's no friction resistance.
        $endgroup$
        – Carl Witthoft
        2 days ago






      • 48




        $begingroup$
        @CarlWitthoft Traditionally one uses the highly viscous fluid called asphalt for this, I'm just not sure if wheels count as magic friction reducing material...
        $endgroup$
        – mlk
        2 days ago






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        If you have two bodies of water at different heights, then the higher one will supply the water.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        2 days ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Having a flowing canal isn't a goal, it's an unfortunate consequence of having to move between two bodies of water at different heights.
        $endgroup$
        – Brilliand
        2 days ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Acccumulation And what happens when that body of water is empty?
        $endgroup$
        – immibis
        2 days ago













      53












      53








      53





      $begingroup$

      A canal with a gradient and a flow is a river. And navigatable rivers are pretty much flat. Taking a nearby river (the Medway) and measuring the change in height from the coast to the point at which it becomes essentially unnavigatable gives an average gradient of 0.0003 or about 30cm per kilometer. Wider rivers have lower gradients. The Mississippi has a gradient of about 1cm per km, yet still flows pretty quickly



      If you have a flowing canal, you need a constant source of water. This is why canals use locks. Don't design canals as rivers, unless you already have a river to redirect through it.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      A canal with a gradient and a flow is a river. And navigatable rivers are pretty much flat. Taking a nearby river (the Medway) and measuring the change in height from the coast to the point at which it becomes essentially unnavigatable gives an average gradient of 0.0003 or about 30cm per kilometer. Wider rivers have lower gradients. The Mississippi has a gradient of about 1cm per km, yet still flows pretty quickly



      If you have a flowing canal, you need a constant source of water. This is why canals use locks. Don't design canals as rivers, unless you already have a river to redirect through it.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 2 days ago









      James KJames K

      9,1022044




      9,1022044







      • 5




        $begingroup$
        And here I was going to suggest canals filled with high-viscosity fluid, thus greatly diminishing the flow rate. Just coat your barges with some magic fluid-phobic material so there's no friction resistance.
        $endgroup$
        – Carl Witthoft
        2 days ago






      • 48




        $begingroup$
        @CarlWitthoft Traditionally one uses the highly viscous fluid called asphalt for this, I'm just not sure if wheels count as magic friction reducing material...
        $endgroup$
        – mlk
        2 days ago






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        If you have two bodies of water at different heights, then the higher one will supply the water.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        2 days ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Having a flowing canal isn't a goal, it's an unfortunate consequence of having to move between two bodies of water at different heights.
        $endgroup$
        – Brilliand
        2 days ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Acccumulation And what happens when that body of water is empty?
        $endgroup$
        – immibis
        2 days ago












      • 5




        $begingroup$
        And here I was going to suggest canals filled with high-viscosity fluid, thus greatly diminishing the flow rate. Just coat your barges with some magic fluid-phobic material so there's no friction resistance.
        $endgroup$
        – Carl Witthoft
        2 days ago






      • 48




        $begingroup$
        @CarlWitthoft Traditionally one uses the highly viscous fluid called asphalt for this, I'm just not sure if wheels count as magic friction reducing material...
        $endgroup$
        – mlk
        2 days ago






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        If you have two bodies of water at different heights, then the higher one will supply the water.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        2 days ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        Having a flowing canal isn't a goal, it's an unfortunate consequence of having to move between two bodies of water at different heights.
        $endgroup$
        – Brilliand
        2 days ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Acccumulation And what happens when that body of water is empty?
        $endgroup$
        – immibis
        2 days ago







      5




      5




      $begingroup$
      And here I was going to suggest canals filled with high-viscosity fluid, thus greatly diminishing the flow rate. Just coat your barges with some magic fluid-phobic material so there's no friction resistance.
      $endgroup$
      – Carl Witthoft
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      And here I was going to suggest canals filled with high-viscosity fluid, thus greatly diminishing the flow rate. Just coat your barges with some magic fluid-phobic material so there's no friction resistance.
      $endgroup$
      – Carl Witthoft
      2 days ago




      48




      48




      $begingroup$
      @CarlWitthoft Traditionally one uses the highly viscous fluid called asphalt for this, I'm just not sure if wheels count as magic friction reducing material...
      $endgroup$
      – mlk
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      @CarlWitthoft Traditionally one uses the highly viscous fluid called asphalt for this, I'm just not sure if wheels count as magic friction reducing material...
      $endgroup$
      – mlk
      2 days ago




      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      If you have two bodies of water at different heights, then the higher one will supply the water.
      $endgroup$
      – Acccumulation
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      If you have two bodies of water at different heights, then the higher one will supply the water.
      $endgroup$
      – Acccumulation
      2 days ago




      2




      2




      $begingroup$
      Having a flowing canal isn't a goal, it's an unfortunate consequence of having to move between two bodies of water at different heights.
      $endgroup$
      – Brilliand
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      Having a flowing canal isn't a goal, it's an unfortunate consequence of having to move between two bodies of water at different heights.
      $endgroup$
      – Brilliand
      2 days ago




      2




      2




      $begingroup$
      @Acccumulation And what happens when that body of water is empty?
      $endgroup$
      – immibis
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      @Acccumulation And what happens when that body of water is empty?
      $endgroup$
      – immibis
      2 days ago











      14












      $begingroup$


      The Suez Canal is an artificial waterway of about 190 km in length running across the Isthmus of Suez in northeastern Egypt which connects the Mediterranean Seas with the Gulf of Suez, an arm of the Red Sea. It has no locks, because the Mediterranean Sea and the Gulf of Suez have roughly the same water level and is thus the world's longest canal without locks. (Source)



      Karakum Canal without locks in Russia is the longest canal in the world with a total length of 1400 kilometer. It was built in 1954 and completed in 1967 having a length of 840 kilometers and further extended in 1970 and 80s up to Caspian Sea coast making its total length of 1400 kilometers. (Source)




      To answer your question, 0°.



      The differences in "sea level altitude" between the sources and destinations of these bodies varies naturally according to the tide, but the canals are dug such that those variations are accommodated within the canal — which can only be done when the source and destination altitudes are fundamentally equal.



      There is obviously some small amount of ascent/descent or the canals/rivers used for cargo transport wouldn't have a current. But that ascent/descent need not (and almost always is not) a condition of the path being traveled by the cargo ships. For example, the Mississippi has nearly all of its descent in its northern most reaches. By the time you get to the majority of shipping in the southern U.S., it's basically flat. The current is caused by water pressure from the north.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$








      • 4




        $begingroup$
        I don't think the OP is asking about sea canals; more the medieval style "river canals". They definitely have different water levels across the length of the canal, though obviously, they also used a lot of locks. 2° is the kind of grade that already gives trouble to rail traffic, I'd expect a navigable river/canal system would be substantially below 1°, especially without powered boats. Many navigable rivers have gradients in tens of centimeters per kilometer. And of course, even if a gradient is technically possible, at some point land traffic is going to be more economical anyway.
        $endgroup$
        – Luaan
        2 days ago






      • 4




        $begingroup$
        @jwenting uh, yeah you could. Literally all rivers have that. And what are canals if not redirected rivers or lakes?
        $endgroup$
        – Hobbamok
        2 days ago






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        @Hobbamok you could not, unless you want to drain one end of the canal into the other. A river has something where the water originates, or it'd run dry. Canals with a grade would drain whatever is at their high point into whatever is at their low point. Which can drain entire lakes.
        $endgroup$
        – jwenting
        2 days ago






      • 5




        $begingroup$
        1 degree is a 1:60 gradient, or 16m per km - that's around 100 times steeper than most navigable rivers.
        $endgroup$
        – Robin Bennett
        2 days ago






      • 4




        $begingroup$
        "The current is caused by water pressure from the north." [citation needed] This isn't a pipeline.
        $endgroup$
        – Yakk
        2 days ago
















      14












      $begingroup$


      The Suez Canal is an artificial waterway of about 190 km in length running across the Isthmus of Suez in northeastern Egypt which connects the Mediterranean Seas with the Gulf of Suez, an arm of the Red Sea. It has no locks, because the Mediterranean Sea and the Gulf of Suez have roughly the same water level and is thus the world's longest canal without locks. (Source)



      Karakum Canal without locks in Russia is the longest canal in the world with a total length of 1400 kilometer. It was built in 1954 and completed in 1967 having a length of 840 kilometers and further extended in 1970 and 80s up to Caspian Sea coast making its total length of 1400 kilometers. (Source)




      To answer your question, 0°.



      The differences in "sea level altitude" between the sources and destinations of these bodies varies naturally according to the tide, but the canals are dug such that those variations are accommodated within the canal — which can only be done when the source and destination altitudes are fundamentally equal.



      There is obviously some small amount of ascent/descent or the canals/rivers used for cargo transport wouldn't have a current. But that ascent/descent need not (and almost always is not) a condition of the path being traveled by the cargo ships. For example, the Mississippi has nearly all of its descent in its northern most reaches. By the time you get to the majority of shipping in the southern U.S., it's basically flat. The current is caused by water pressure from the north.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$








      • 4




        $begingroup$
        I don't think the OP is asking about sea canals; more the medieval style "river canals". They definitely have different water levels across the length of the canal, though obviously, they also used a lot of locks. 2° is the kind of grade that already gives trouble to rail traffic, I'd expect a navigable river/canal system would be substantially below 1°, especially without powered boats. Many navigable rivers have gradients in tens of centimeters per kilometer. And of course, even if a gradient is technically possible, at some point land traffic is going to be more economical anyway.
        $endgroup$
        – Luaan
        2 days ago






      • 4




        $begingroup$
        @jwenting uh, yeah you could. Literally all rivers have that. And what are canals if not redirected rivers or lakes?
        $endgroup$
        – Hobbamok
        2 days ago






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        @Hobbamok you could not, unless you want to drain one end of the canal into the other. A river has something where the water originates, or it'd run dry. Canals with a grade would drain whatever is at their high point into whatever is at their low point. Which can drain entire lakes.
        $endgroup$
        – jwenting
        2 days ago






      • 5




        $begingroup$
        1 degree is a 1:60 gradient, or 16m per km - that's around 100 times steeper than most navigable rivers.
        $endgroup$
        – Robin Bennett
        2 days ago






      • 4




        $begingroup$
        "The current is caused by water pressure from the north." [citation needed] This isn't a pipeline.
        $endgroup$
        – Yakk
        2 days ago














      14












      14








      14





      $begingroup$


      The Suez Canal is an artificial waterway of about 190 km in length running across the Isthmus of Suez in northeastern Egypt which connects the Mediterranean Seas with the Gulf of Suez, an arm of the Red Sea. It has no locks, because the Mediterranean Sea and the Gulf of Suez have roughly the same water level and is thus the world's longest canal without locks. (Source)



      Karakum Canal without locks in Russia is the longest canal in the world with a total length of 1400 kilometer. It was built in 1954 and completed in 1967 having a length of 840 kilometers and further extended in 1970 and 80s up to Caspian Sea coast making its total length of 1400 kilometers. (Source)




      To answer your question, 0°.



      The differences in "sea level altitude" between the sources and destinations of these bodies varies naturally according to the tide, but the canals are dug such that those variations are accommodated within the canal — which can only be done when the source and destination altitudes are fundamentally equal.



      There is obviously some small amount of ascent/descent or the canals/rivers used for cargo transport wouldn't have a current. But that ascent/descent need not (and almost always is not) a condition of the path being traveled by the cargo ships. For example, the Mississippi has nearly all of its descent in its northern most reaches. By the time you get to the majority of shipping in the southern U.S., it's basically flat. The current is caused by water pressure from the north.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$




      The Suez Canal is an artificial waterway of about 190 km in length running across the Isthmus of Suez in northeastern Egypt which connects the Mediterranean Seas with the Gulf of Suez, an arm of the Red Sea. It has no locks, because the Mediterranean Sea and the Gulf of Suez have roughly the same water level and is thus the world's longest canal without locks. (Source)



      Karakum Canal without locks in Russia is the longest canal in the world with a total length of 1400 kilometer. It was built in 1954 and completed in 1967 having a length of 840 kilometers and further extended in 1970 and 80s up to Caspian Sea coast making its total length of 1400 kilometers. (Source)




      To answer your question, 0°.



      The differences in "sea level altitude" between the sources and destinations of these bodies varies naturally according to the tide, but the canals are dug such that those variations are accommodated within the canal — which can only be done when the source and destination altitudes are fundamentally equal.



      There is obviously some small amount of ascent/descent or the canals/rivers used for cargo transport wouldn't have a current. But that ascent/descent need not (and almost always is not) a condition of the path being traveled by the cargo ships. For example, the Mississippi has nearly all of its descent in its northern most reaches. By the time you get to the majority of shipping in the southern U.S., it's basically flat. The current is caused by water pressure from the north.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited 2 days ago

























      answered Apr 9 at 2:28









      JBHJBH

      48.1k699227




      48.1k699227







      • 4




        $begingroup$
        I don't think the OP is asking about sea canals; more the medieval style "river canals". They definitely have different water levels across the length of the canal, though obviously, they also used a lot of locks. 2° is the kind of grade that already gives trouble to rail traffic, I'd expect a navigable river/canal system would be substantially below 1°, especially without powered boats. Many navigable rivers have gradients in tens of centimeters per kilometer. And of course, even if a gradient is technically possible, at some point land traffic is going to be more economical anyway.
        $endgroup$
        – Luaan
        2 days ago






      • 4




        $begingroup$
        @jwenting uh, yeah you could. Literally all rivers have that. And what are canals if not redirected rivers or lakes?
        $endgroup$
        – Hobbamok
        2 days ago






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        @Hobbamok you could not, unless you want to drain one end of the canal into the other. A river has something where the water originates, or it'd run dry. Canals with a grade would drain whatever is at their high point into whatever is at their low point. Which can drain entire lakes.
        $endgroup$
        – jwenting
        2 days ago






      • 5




        $begingroup$
        1 degree is a 1:60 gradient, or 16m per km - that's around 100 times steeper than most navigable rivers.
        $endgroup$
        – Robin Bennett
        2 days ago






      • 4




        $begingroup$
        "The current is caused by water pressure from the north." [citation needed] This isn't a pipeline.
        $endgroup$
        – Yakk
        2 days ago













      • 4




        $begingroup$
        I don't think the OP is asking about sea canals; more the medieval style "river canals". They definitely have different water levels across the length of the canal, though obviously, they also used a lot of locks. 2° is the kind of grade that already gives trouble to rail traffic, I'd expect a navigable river/canal system would be substantially below 1°, especially without powered boats. Many navigable rivers have gradients in tens of centimeters per kilometer. And of course, even if a gradient is technically possible, at some point land traffic is going to be more economical anyway.
        $endgroup$
        – Luaan
        2 days ago






      • 4




        $begingroup$
        @jwenting uh, yeah you could. Literally all rivers have that. And what are canals if not redirected rivers or lakes?
        $endgroup$
        – Hobbamok
        2 days ago






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        @Hobbamok you could not, unless you want to drain one end of the canal into the other. A river has something where the water originates, or it'd run dry. Canals with a grade would drain whatever is at their high point into whatever is at their low point. Which can drain entire lakes.
        $endgroup$
        – jwenting
        2 days ago






      • 5




        $begingroup$
        1 degree is a 1:60 gradient, or 16m per km - that's around 100 times steeper than most navigable rivers.
        $endgroup$
        – Robin Bennett
        2 days ago






      • 4




        $begingroup$
        "The current is caused by water pressure from the north." [citation needed] This isn't a pipeline.
        $endgroup$
        – Yakk
        2 days ago








      4




      4




      $begingroup$
      I don't think the OP is asking about sea canals; more the medieval style "river canals". They definitely have different water levels across the length of the canal, though obviously, they also used a lot of locks. 2° is the kind of grade that already gives trouble to rail traffic, I'd expect a navigable river/canal system would be substantially below 1°, especially without powered boats. Many navigable rivers have gradients in tens of centimeters per kilometer. And of course, even if a gradient is technically possible, at some point land traffic is going to be more economical anyway.
      $endgroup$
      – Luaan
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      I don't think the OP is asking about sea canals; more the medieval style "river canals". They definitely have different water levels across the length of the canal, though obviously, they also used a lot of locks. 2° is the kind of grade that already gives trouble to rail traffic, I'd expect a navigable river/canal system would be substantially below 1°, especially without powered boats. Many navigable rivers have gradients in tens of centimeters per kilometer. And of course, even if a gradient is technically possible, at some point land traffic is going to be more economical anyway.
      $endgroup$
      – Luaan
      2 days ago




      4




      4




      $begingroup$
      @jwenting uh, yeah you could. Literally all rivers have that. And what are canals if not redirected rivers or lakes?
      $endgroup$
      – Hobbamok
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      @jwenting uh, yeah you could. Literally all rivers have that. And what are canals if not redirected rivers or lakes?
      $endgroup$
      – Hobbamok
      2 days ago




      3




      3




      $begingroup$
      @Hobbamok you could not, unless you want to drain one end of the canal into the other. A river has something where the water originates, or it'd run dry. Canals with a grade would drain whatever is at their high point into whatever is at their low point. Which can drain entire lakes.
      $endgroup$
      – jwenting
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      @Hobbamok you could not, unless you want to drain one end of the canal into the other. A river has something where the water originates, or it'd run dry. Canals with a grade would drain whatever is at their high point into whatever is at their low point. Which can drain entire lakes.
      $endgroup$
      – jwenting
      2 days ago




      5




      5




      $begingroup$
      1 degree is a 1:60 gradient, or 16m per km - that's around 100 times steeper than most navigable rivers.
      $endgroup$
      – Robin Bennett
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      1 degree is a 1:60 gradient, or 16m per km - that's around 100 times steeper than most navigable rivers.
      $endgroup$
      – Robin Bennett
      2 days ago




      4




      4




      $begingroup$
      "The current is caused by water pressure from the north." [citation needed] This isn't a pipeline.
      $endgroup$
      – Yakk
      2 days ago





      $begingroup$
      "The current is caused by water pressure from the north." [citation needed] This isn't a pipeline.
      $endgroup$
      – Yakk
      2 days ago












      7












      $begingroup$

      The gradient should be 0, UNLESS the high end of the canal has a flow rate high enough to compensate for the amount of water being drained from it by the canal into the low end.



      Which for any decent sized canal would be a lot indeed and probably make the upstream end of the canal hazardous for shipping because of the rapids.



      This is simple physics. Water (as any liquid really) want to establish equilibrium, meaning the surface wants to be flat and level. Thus it flows from high to low until equilibrium is established, both vessels having the same water level.



      The only way to thus have a canal with one end higher than the other without an artificial barrier (a lock) in it is to ensure that the high end gains water as fast as the canal can drain it.



      In theory of course you could calculate the exact drainage and pump water out of the low end at that rate, back into the high end. But locks would be much easier, cheaper, and more reliable.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        * where "flat" and "level" are non-technical terms referring to the imperceptible curve that water follows to maintain an equal gravitational potential...
        $endgroup$
        – JCRM
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        You don't need a pump, if natural processes are filling it up. And even if there's a net flow, it can still take years to level off, if the flow is small enough and the volume is large enough.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        2 days ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Acccumulation A canal dependent civilisation, requires functional canals. Investing in a Canal that would suffer at the hands of intermittent weather, or potentially would ruin the already established network of canals is a bad investment. It would be like investing in a rail line which would work fine for the next 10 years except for droughts, and will prevent any trains on linked rails from running after that. Requiring either a massive refurbishment program or new technology to fix.
        $endgroup$
        – Kain0_0
        yesterday










      • $begingroup$
        @Kain0_0 I'm taking the the desire for flow to be motivated by out-of-universe plot reasons, and not an in-universe desire of the characters. And according to this article, it would take the Amazon six years to empty a body of water the size of the Mediterranean Sea. So if you had a canal with a flow one hundredth of the Amazon, it would take six hundred years. And with rain, it wouldn't suffer at the hand of intermittent weather, since it would take six hundred years of drought to empty it.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        yesterday















      7












      $begingroup$

      The gradient should be 0, UNLESS the high end of the canal has a flow rate high enough to compensate for the amount of water being drained from it by the canal into the low end.



      Which for any decent sized canal would be a lot indeed and probably make the upstream end of the canal hazardous for shipping because of the rapids.



      This is simple physics. Water (as any liquid really) want to establish equilibrium, meaning the surface wants to be flat and level. Thus it flows from high to low until equilibrium is established, both vessels having the same water level.



      The only way to thus have a canal with one end higher than the other without an artificial barrier (a lock) in it is to ensure that the high end gains water as fast as the canal can drain it.



      In theory of course you could calculate the exact drainage and pump water out of the low end at that rate, back into the high end. But locks would be much easier, cheaper, and more reliable.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        * where "flat" and "level" are non-technical terms referring to the imperceptible curve that water follows to maintain an equal gravitational potential...
        $endgroup$
        – JCRM
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        You don't need a pump, if natural processes are filling it up. And even if there's a net flow, it can still take years to level off, if the flow is small enough and the volume is large enough.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        2 days ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Acccumulation A canal dependent civilisation, requires functional canals. Investing in a Canal that would suffer at the hands of intermittent weather, or potentially would ruin the already established network of canals is a bad investment. It would be like investing in a rail line which would work fine for the next 10 years except for droughts, and will prevent any trains on linked rails from running after that. Requiring either a massive refurbishment program or new technology to fix.
        $endgroup$
        – Kain0_0
        yesterday










      • $begingroup$
        @Kain0_0 I'm taking the the desire for flow to be motivated by out-of-universe plot reasons, and not an in-universe desire of the characters. And according to this article, it would take the Amazon six years to empty a body of water the size of the Mediterranean Sea. So if you had a canal with a flow one hundredth of the Amazon, it would take six hundred years. And with rain, it wouldn't suffer at the hand of intermittent weather, since it would take six hundred years of drought to empty it.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        yesterday













      7












      7








      7





      $begingroup$

      The gradient should be 0, UNLESS the high end of the canal has a flow rate high enough to compensate for the amount of water being drained from it by the canal into the low end.



      Which for any decent sized canal would be a lot indeed and probably make the upstream end of the canal hazardous for shipping because of the rapids.



      This is simple physics. Water (as any liquid really) want to establish equilibrium, meaning the surface wants to be flat and level. Thus it flows from high to low until equilibrium is established, both vessels having the same water level.



      The only way to thus have a canal with one end higher than the other without an artificial barrier (a lock) in it is to ensure that the high end gains water as fast as the canal can drain it.



      In theory of course you could calculate the exact drainage and pump water out of the low end at that rate, back into the high end. But locks would be much easier, cheaper, and more reliable.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      The gradient should be 0, UNLESS the high end of the canal has a flow rate high enough to compensate for the amount of water being drained from it by the canal into the low end.



      Which for any decent sized canal would be a lot indeed and probably make the upstream end of the canal hazardous for shipping because of the rapids.



      This is simple physics. Water (as any liquid really) want to establish equilibrium, meaning the surface wants to be flat and level. Thus it flows from high to low until equilibrium is established, both vessels having the same water level.



      The only way to thus have a canal with one end higher than the other without an artificial barrier (a lock) in it is to ensure that the high end gains water as fast as the canal can drain it.



      In theory of course you could calculate the exact drainage and pump water out of the low end at that rate, back into the high end. But locks would be much easier, cheaper, and more reliable.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 2 days ago









      jwentingjwenting

      1,92258




      1,92258











      • $begingroup$
        * where "flat" and "level" are non-technical terms referring to the imperceptible curve that water follows to maintain an equal gravitational potential...
        $endgroup$
        – JCRM
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        You don't need a pump, if natural processes are filling it up. And even if there's a net flow, it can still take years to level off, if the flow is small enough and the volume is large enough.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        2 days ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Acccumulation A canal dependent civilisation, requires functional canals. Investing in a Canal that would suffer at the hands of intermittent weather, or potentially would ruin the already established network of canals is a bad investment. It would be like investing in a rail line which would work fine for the next 10 years except for droughts, and will prevent any trains on linked rails from running after that. Requiring either a massive refurbishment program or new technology to fix.
        $endgroup$
        – Kain0_0
        yesterday










      • $begingroup$
        @Kain0_0 I'm taking the the desire for flow to be motivated by out-of-universe plot reasons, and not an in-universe desire of the characters. And according to this article, it would take the Amazon six years to empty a body of water the size of the Mediterranean Sea. So if you had a canal with a flow one hundredth of the Amazon, it would take six hundred years. And with rain, it wouldn't suffer at the hand of intermittent weather, since it would take six hundred years of drought to empty it.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        yesterday
















      • $begingroup$
        * where "flat" and "level" are non-technical terms referring to the imperceptible curve that water follows to maintain an equal gravitational potential...
        $endgroup$
        – JCRM
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        You don't need a pump, if natural processes are filling it up. And even if there's a net flow, it can still take years to level off, if the flow is small enough and the volume is large enough.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        2 days ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Acccumulation A canal dependent civilisation, requires functional canals. Investing in a Canal that would suffer at the hands of intermittent weather, or potentially would ruin the already established network of canals is a bad investment. It would be like investing in a rail line which would work fine for the next 10 years except for droughts, and will prevent any trains on linked rails from running after that. Requiring either a massive refurbishment program or new technology to fix.
        $endgroup$
        – Kain0_0
        yesterday










      • $begingroup$
        @Kain0_0 I'm taking the the desire for flow to be motivated by out-of-universe plot reasons, and not an in-universe desire of the characters. And according to this article, it would take the Amazon six years to empty a body of water the size of the Mediterranean Sea. So if you had a canal with a flow one hundredth of the Amazon, it would take six hundred years. And with rain, it wouldn't suffer at the hand of intermittent weather, since it would take six hundred years of drought to empty it.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        yesterday















      $begingroup$
      * where "flat" and "level" are non-technical terms referring to the imperceptible curve that water follows to maintain an equal gravitational potential...
      $endgroup$
      – JCRM
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      * where "flat" and "level" are non-technical terms referring to the imperceptible curve that water follows to maintain an equal gravitational potential...
      $endgroup$
      – JCRM
      2 days ago












      $begingroup$
      You don't need a pump, if natural processes are filling it up. And even if there's a net flow, it can still take years to level off, if the flow is small enough and the volume is large enough.
      $endgroup$
      – Acccumulation
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      You don't need a pump, if natural processes are filling it up. And even if there's a net flow, it can still take years to level off, if the flow is small enough and the volume is large enough.
      $endgroup$
      – Acccumulation
      2 days ago




      2




      2




      $begingroup$
      @Acccumulation A canal dependent civilisation, requires functional canals. Investing in a Canal that would suffer at the hands of intermittent weather, or potentially would ruin the already established network of canals is a bad investment. It would be like investing in a rail line which would work fine for the next 10 years except for droughts, and will prevent any trains on linked rails from running after that. Requiring either a massive refurbishment program or new technology to fix.
      $endgroup$
      – Kain0_0
      yesterday




      $begingroup$
      @Acccumulation A canal dependent civilisation, requires functional canals. Investing in a Canal that would suffer at the hands of intermittent weather, or potentially would ruin the already established network of canals is a bad investment. It would be like investing in a rail line which would work fine for the next 10 years except for droughts, and will prevent any trains on linked rails from running after that. Requiring either a massive refurbishment program or new technology to fix.
      $endgroup$
      – Kain0_0
      yesterday












      $begingroup$
      @Kain0_0 I'm taking the the desire for flow to be motivated by out-of-universe plot reasons, and not an in-universe desire of the characters. And according to this article, it would take the Amazon six years to empty a body of water the size of the Mediterranean Sea. So if you had a canal with a flow one hundredth of the Amazon, it would take six hundred years. And with rain, it wouldn't suffer at the hand of intermittent weather, since it would take six hundred years of drought to empty it.
      $endgroup$
      – Acccumulation
      yesterday




      $begingroup$
      @Kain0_0 I'm taking the the desire for flow to be motivated by out-of-universe plot reasons, and not an in-universe desire of the characters. And according to this article, it would take the Amazon six years to empty a body of water the size of the Mediterranean Sea. So if you had a canal with a flow one hundredth of the Amazon, it would take six hundred years. And with rain, it wouldn't suffer at the hand of intermittent weather, since it would take six hundred years of drought to empty it.
      $endgroup$
      – Acccumulation
      yesterday











      1












      $begingroup$

      Your only limiter is how much your beasts of burden can drag up river. This is less dependent on slope than it is on the speed of flow and shape of the hull. Personally I'd favour double hulled boats if your channel is wide enough, they cut through water pretty well while giving you width for cargo space. Whereas a similar single hull would probably need to be a long thin boat in a heavy current.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        So, the more hydrodynamic the boat hull is, the easier it is to be pulled through the water. That sort of makes sense.
        $endgroup$
        – GiruŠatuku
        2 days ago






      • 4




        $begingroup$
        The limiter is that the water will flow out of your canal at the bottom end leaving it empty of water, unless it is refilled at the top, in which case it is a river.
        $endgroup$
        – rghome
        2 days ago






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        If you're talking about a catamaran, they're generally referred to as twin-hulled. "Double hull" generally refers to a hull inside a hull.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        2 days ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Acccumulation maybe where you come from, over here no, and I'm Polynesian, we invented these vessels over 2000 years ago.
        $endgroup$
        – Kilisi
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        @Kilisi "Hull" is not a Polynesian term. While "double hull" can refer to catamarans, "twin-hulled" is significantly less ambiguous.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        yesterday















      1












      $begingroup$

      Your only limiter is how much your beasts of burden can drag up river. This is less dependent on slope than it is on the speed of flow and shape of the hull. Personally I'd favour double hulled boats if your channel is wide enough, they cut through water pretty well while giving you width for cargo space. Whereas a similar single hull would probably need to be a long thin boat in a heavy current.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        So, the more hydrodynamic the boat hull is, the easier it is to be pulled through the water. That sort of makes sense.
        $endgroup$
        – GiruŠatuku
        2 days ago






      • 4




        $begingroup$
        The limiter is that the water will flow out of your canal at the bottom end leaving it empty of water, unless it is refilled at the top, in which case it is a river.
        $endgroup$
        – rghome
        2 days ago






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        If you're talking about a catamaran, they're generally referred to as twin-hulled. "Double hull" generally refers to a hull inside a hull.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        2 days ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Acccumulation maybe where you come from, over here no, and I'm Polynesian, we invented these vessels over 2000 years ago.
        $endgroup$
        – Kilisi
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        @Kilisi "Hull" is not a Polynesian term. While "double hull" can refer to catamarans, "twin-hulled" is significantly less ambiguous.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        yesterday













      1












      1








      1





      $begingroup$

      Your only limiter is how much your beasts of burden can drag up river. This is less dependent on slope than it is on the speed of flow and shape of the hull. Personally I'd favour double hulled boats if your channel is wide enough, they cut through water pretty well while giving you width for cargo space. Whereas a similar single hull would probably need to be a long thin boat in a heavy current.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      Your only limiter is how much your beasts of burden can drag up river. This is less dependent on slope than it is on the speed of flow and shape of the hull. Personally I'd favour double hulled boats if your channel is wide enough, they cut through water pretty well while giving you width for cargo space. Whereas a similar single hull would probably need to be a long thin boat in a heavy current.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 2 days ago









      KilisiKilisi

      13.8k12261




      13.8k12261







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        So, the more hydrodynamic the boat hull is, the easier it is to be pulled through the water. That sort of makes sense.
        $endgroup$
        – GiruŠatuku
        2 days ago






      • 4




        $begingroup$
        The limiter is that the water will flow out of your canal at the bottom end leaving it empty of water, unless it is refilled at the top, in which case it is a river.
        $endgroup$
        – rghome
        2 days ago






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        If you're talking about a catamaran, they're generally referred to as twin-hulled. "Double hull" generally refers to a hull inside a hull.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        2 days ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Acccumulation maybe where you come from, over here no, and I'm Polynesian, we invented these vessels over 2000 years ago.
        $endgroup$
        – Kilisi
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        @Kilisi "Hull" is not a Polynesian term. While "double hull" can refer to catamarans, "twin-hulled" is significantly less ambiguous.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        yesterday












      • 1




        $begingroup$
        So, the more hydrodynamic the boat hull is, the easier it is to be pulled through the water. That sort of makes sense.
        $endgroup$
        – GiruŠatuku
        2 days ago






      • 4




        $begingroup$
        The limiter is that the water will flow out of your canal at the bottom end leaving it empty of water, unless it is refilled at the top, in which case it is a river.
        $endgroup$
        – rghome
        2 days ago






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        If you're talking about a catamaran, they're generally referred to as twin-hulled. "Double hull" generally refers to a hull inside a hull.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        2 days ago






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        @Acccumulation maybe where you come from, over here no, and I'm Polynesian, we invented these vessels over 2000 years ago.
        $endgroup$
        – Kilisi
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        @Kilisi "Hull" is not a Polynesian term. While "double hull" can refer to catamarans, "twin-hulled" is significantly less ambiguous.
        $endgroup$
        – Acccumulation
        yesterday







      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      So, the more hydrodynamic the boat hull is, the easier it is to be pulled through the water. That sort of makes sense.
      $endgroup$
      – GiruŠatuku
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      So, the more hydrodynamic the boat hull is, the easier it is to be pulled through the water. That sort of makes sense.
      $endgroup$
      – GiruŠatuku
      2 days ago




      4




      4




      $begingroup$
      The limiter is that the water will flow out of your canal at the bottom end leaving it empty of water, unless it is refilled at the top, in which case it is a river.
      $endgroup$
      – rghome
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      The limiter is that the water will flow out of your canal at the bottom end leaving it empty of water, unless it is refilled at the top, in which case it is a river.
      $endgroup$
      – rghome
      2 days ago




      3




      3




      $begingroup$
      If you're talking about a catamaran, they're generally referred to as twin-hulled. "Double hull" generally refers to a hull inside a hull.
      $endgroup$
      – Acccumulation
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      If you're talking about a catamaran, they're generally referred to as twin-hulled. "Double hull" generally refers to a hull inside a hull.
      $endgroup$
      – Acccumulation
      2 days ago




      2




      2




      $begingroup$
      @Acccumulation maybe where you come from, over here no, and I'm Polynesian, we invented these vessels over 2000 years ago.
      $endgroup$
      – Kilisi
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      @Acccumulation maybe where you come from, over here no, and I'm Polynesian, we invented these vessels over 2000 years ago.
      $endgroup$
      – Kilisi
      2 days ago












      $begingroup$
      @Kilisi "Hull" is not a Polynesian term. While "double hull" can refer to catamarans, "twin-hulled" is significantly less ambiguous.
      $endgroup$
      – Acccumulation
      yesterday




      $begingroup$
      @Kilisi "Hull" is not a Polynesian term. While "double hull" can refer to catamarans, "twin-hulled" is significantly less ambiguous.
      $endgroup$
      – Acccumulation
      yesterday











      1












      $begingroup$

      I wonder if Tesla valve-shaped channel would work for you. It can make flow 10-100 times slower than unimpeded one, so I guess in theory 1/10 gradient would become possible. But it works best with pulsed flow and when covered so I am not sure if it would work in this case.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$

















        1












        $begingroup$

        I wonder if Tesla valve-shaped channel would work for you. It can make flow 10-100 times slower than unimpeded one, so I guess in theory 1/10 gradient would become possible. But it works best with pulsed flow and when covered so I am not sure if it would work in this case.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$















          1












          1








          1





          $begingroup$

          I wonder if Tesla valve-shaped channel would work for you. It can make flow 10-100 times slower than unimpeded one, so I guess in theory 1/10 gradient would become possible. But it works best with pulsed flow and when covered so I am not sure if it would work in this case.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          I wonder if Tesla valve-shaped channel would work for you. It can make flow 10-100 times slower than unimpeded one, so I guess in theory 1/10 gradient would become possible. But it works best with pulsed flow and when covered so I am not sure if it would work in this case.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited yesterday

























          answered yesterday









          VashuVashu

          2,668414




          2,668414





















              0












              $begingroup$

              If your canal empties into the Bay of Fundy, you've got fifty feet of vertical displacement to work with, thanks to the tides.



              You can achieve whatever angle you might fancy by varying the length of your canal.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$

















                0












                $begingroup$

                If your canal empties into the Bay of Fundy, you've got fifty feet of vertical displacement to work with, thanks to the tides.



                You can achieve whatever angle you might fancy by varying the length of your canal.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$















                  0












                  0








                  0





                  $begingroup$

                  If your canal empties into the Bay of Fundy, you've got fifty feet of vertical displacement to work with, thanks to the tides.



                  You can achieve whatever angle you might fancy by varying the length of your canal.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  If your canal empties into the Bay of Fundy, you've got fifty feet of vertical displacement to work with, thanks to the tides.



                  You can achieve whatever angle you might fancy by varying the length of your canal.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 2 days ago









                  RogerRoger

                  3,195420




                  3,195420



























                      draft saved

                      draft discarded
















































                      Thanks for contributing an answer to Worldbuilding Stack Exchange!


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid


                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                      Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function ()
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fworldbuilding.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f143526%2fwhat-is-the-steepest-gradient-that-a-canal-can-be-traversable-without-locks%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                      );

                      Post as a guest















                      Required, but never shown





















































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown







                      Popular posts from this blog

                      Category:9 (number) SubcategoriesMedia in category "9 (number)"Navigation menuUpload mediaGND ID: 4485639-8Library of Congress authority ID: sh85091979ReasonatorScholiaStatistics

                      Circuit construction for execution of conditional statements using least significant bitHow are two different registers being used as “control”?How exactly is the stated composite state of the two registers being produced using the $R_zz$ controlled rotations?Efficiently performing controlled rotations in HHLWould this quantum algorithm implementation work?How to prepare a superposed states of odd integers from $1$ to $sqrtN$?Why is this implementation of the order finding algorithm not working?Circuit construction for Hamiltonian simulationHow can I invert the least significant bit of a certain term of a superposed state?Implementing an oracleImplementing a controlled sum operation

                      Magento 2 “No Payment Methods” in Admin New OrderHow to integrate Paypal Express Checkout with the Magento APIMagento 1.5 - Sales > Order > edit order and shipping methods disappearAuto Invoice Check/Money Order Payment methodAdd more simple payment methods?Shipping methods not showingWhat should I do to change payment methods if changing the configuration has no effects?1.9 - No Payment Methods showing upMy Payment Methods not Showing for downloadable/virtual product when checkout?Magento2 API to access internal payment methodHow to call an existing payment methods in the registration form?