Do Grothendieck universes matter for an algebraic geometer?Inaccessible cardinals and Andrew Wiles's proofIs the Invariant Subspace Problem arithmetic?Etale cohomology — Why study it?On algebraic tubular neighbourhoods and Weak Lefschetzintersection pairing and cup productIdea of using etale siteReference for de Rham cohomology in positive characteristicAn Explicit Example of Galois Theory for SchemesWhy the definition of Weil cohomology theory need the coefficients field to be of characteristic 0Weil homotopy theoryDid Grothendieck overestimate topoi?Motives and homotopy theories of algebraic varieties
Do Grothendieck universes matter for an algebraic geometer?
Inaccessible cardinals and Andrew Wiles's proofIs the Invariant Subspace Problem arithmetic?Etale cohomology — Why study it?On algebraic tubular neighbourhoods and Weak Lefschetzintersection pairing and cup productIdea of using etale siteReference for de Rham cohomology in positive characteristicAn Explicit Example of Galois Theory for SchemesWhy the definition of Weil cohomology theory need the coefficients field to be of characteristic 0Weil homotopy theoryDid Grothendieck overestimate topoi?Motives and homotopy theories of algebraic varieties
$begingroup$
I recently learned that some parts of SGA require axioms beyond ZFC. I am just a simple algebraic geometer so I am trying to understand how can this fact impact my life (you may have engaged in a similar game with the axiom of choice at some point of your mathematical career). I think this was only needed in the volume developing cohomology of topoi, correct me if I am wrong.
The question: is there some statement about schemes not involving the word "topoi" that you know how prove using the additional axioms, but do not know how to prove without them? I believe this question has nothing to do with the notion of completeness in mathematical logic (because I am not asking if something can be proved in principle, just if there is an obvious argument). If there is some logical argument showing that the answer is negative, I would like to learn about that too.
Bonus points if the proof of the statement in your answer relies on a Weil cohomology theory, rather than something random (I do not know if this is even possible). To be more precise, a Weil cohomology theory is only defined for smooth projective schemes over a field, for which all of this should probably be irrelevant, so I mean that the cohomology theory you use restricts to a Weil cohomology theory for smooth projective schemes over a field.
P.S. There was similar discussion in the context of Fermat's theorem, and if I understand correctly, the user BCnrd insists that universes are useless for etale cohomology without giving a reference. I believe there are few people on this planet who know etale cohomology better than BCnrd so that's some useful information. The question is not, however, limited to etale cohomology.
ag.algebraic-geometry schemes
$endgroup$
|
show 24 more comments
$begingroup$
I recently learned that some parts of SGA require axioms beyond ZFC. I am just a simple algebraic geometer so I am trying to understand how can this fact impact my life (you may have engaged in a similar game with the axiom of choice at some point of your mathematical career). I think this was only needed in the volume developing cohomology of topoi, correct me if I am wrong.
The question: is there some statement about schemes not involving the word "topoi" that you know how prove using the additional axioms, but do not know how to prove without them? I believe this question has nothing to do with the notion of completeness in mathematical logic (because I am not asking if something can be proved in principle, just if there is an obvious argument). If there is some logical argument showing that the answer is negative, I would like to learn about that too.
Bonus points if the proof of the statement in your answer relies on a Weil cohomology theory, rather than something random (I do not know if this is even possible). To be more precise, a Weil cohomology theory is only defined for smooth projective schemes over a field, for which all of this should probably be irrelevant, so I mean that the cohomology theory you use restricts to a Weil cohomology theory for smooth projective schemes over a field.
P.S. There was similar discussion in the context of Fermat's theorem, and if I understand correctly, the user BCnrd insists that universes are useless for etale cohomology without giving a reference. I believe there are few people on this planet who know etale cohomology better than BCnrd so that's some useful information. The question is not, however, limited to etale cohomology.
ag.algebraic-geometry schemes
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
"without giving a reference" That may be because no reference exists: I suspect this is the sort of thing where everyone familiar with the relevant arguments knows that they only need very concrete facts about etale cohomology, but nobody's bothered to write it up because it would be both straightforward and tedious. (Confession: I actually have no idea, being a complete doofus in the relevant topic, but this is what I've been told by people who aren't doofoi.)
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 17:05
1
$begingroup$
In general, finding a "natural" mathematical statement that is unprovable in ZFC (and that makes no overt mention of uncountable sets) is very difficult, even if you expressly set yourself the task of doing so. So the chances that any statement you care about as an algebraic geometer is unprovable in ZFC are very small. However, if you want a meta-theorem that "automatically" eliminates universes, then my understanding is that there isn't one---not because of any fundamental obstacle, but because practitioners don't write in a way that makes it easy to formulate a suitable meta-theorem.
$endgroup$
– Timothy Chow
May 13 at 18:36
2
$begingroup$
@TimothyChow Some care is needed with that paper, in my opinion, in particular around what McLarty means by "uses universes." I don't think he makes any claim that universes are actually needed, merely that they served as a simplifying tool for introducing some large-scale concepts used in the proof. Personally, my read of that paper was as at least in part a defense of the use of unnecessarily powerful methods (with which I agree wholeheartedly).
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 23:25
1
$begingroup$
McLarty has gone further, and shown that much less than ZFC is required for derived functor cohomology, and the less assumed on the schemes of interest (for instance, Noetherian, or countable), the weaker the axioms needed.
$endgroup$
– David Roberts
May 14 at 2:17
3
$begingroup$
@MattF. I am not sure I understand. I believe the statement "every non-empty affine scheme has a closed point" is equivalent to the axiom of choice (as claimed here: arxiv.org/abs/1708.06494). Can you explain what are "the ordinary questions" in algebraic geometry?
$endgroup$
– schematic_boi
May 14 at 7:09
|
show 24 more comments
$begingroup$
I recently learned that some parts of SGA require axioms beyond ZFC. I am just a simple algebraic geometer so I am trying to understand how can this fact impact my life (you may have engaged in a similar game with the axiom of choice at some point of your mathematical career). I think this was only needed in the volume developing cohomology of topoi, correct me if I am wrong.
The question: is there some statement about schemes not involving the word "topoi" that you know how prove using the additional axioms, but do not know how to prove without them? I believe this question has nothing to do with the notion of completeness in mathematical logic (because I am not asking if something can be proved in principle, just if there is an obvious argument). If there is some logical argument showing that the answer is negative, I would like to learn about that too.
Bonus points if the proof of the statement in your answer relies on a Weil cohomology theory, rather than something random (I do not know if this is even possible). To be more precise, a Weil cohomology theory is only defined for smooth projective schemes over a field, for which all of this should probably be irrelevant, so I mean that the cohomology theory you use restricts to a Weil cohomology theory for smooth projective schemes over a field.
P.S. There was similar discussion in the context of Fermat's theorem, and if I understand correctly, the user BCnrd insists that universes are useless for etale cohomology without giving a reference. I believe there are few people on this planet who know etale cohomology better than BCnrd so that's some useful information. The question is not, however, limited to etale cohomology.
ag.algebraic-geometry schemes
$endgroup$
I recently learned that some parts of SGA require axioms beyond ZFC. I am just a simple algebraic geometer so I am trying to understand how can this fact impact my life (you may have engaged in a similar game with the axiom of choice at some point of your mathematical career). I think this was only needed in the volume developing cohomology of topoi, correct me if I am wrong.
The question: is there some statement about schemes not involving the word "topoi" that you know how prove using the additional axioms, but do not know how to prove without them? I believe this question has nothing to do with the notion of completeness in mathematical logic (because I am not asking if something can be proved in principle, just if there is an obvious argument). If there is some logical argument showing that the answer is negative, I would like to learn about that too.
Bonus points if the proof of the statement in your answer relies on a Weil cohomology theory, rather than something random (I do not know if this is even possible). To be more precise, a Weil cohomology theory is only defined for smooth projective schemes over a field, for which all of this should probably be irrelevant, so I mean that the cohomology theory you use restricts to a Weil cohomology theory for smooth projective schemes over a field.
P.S. There was similar discussion in the context of Fermat's theorem, and if I understand correctly, the user BCnrd insists that universes are useless for etale cohomology without giving a reference. I believe there are few people on this planet who know etale cohomology better than BCnrd so that's some useful information. The question is not, however, limited to etale cohomology.
ag.algebraic-geometry schemes
ag.algebraic-geometry schemes
asked May 13 at 16:46
schematic_boischematic_boi
18620
18620
3
$begingroup$
"without giving a reference" That may be because no reference exists: I suspect this is the sort of thing where everyone familiar with the relevant arguments knows that they only need very concrete facts about etale cohomology, but nobody's bothered to write it up because it would be both straightforward and tedious. (Confession: I actually have no idea, being a complete doofus in the relevant topic, but this is what I've been told by people who aren't doofoi.)
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 17:05
1
$begingroup$
In general, finding a "natural" mathematical statement that is unprovable in ZFC (and that makes no overt mention of uncountable sets) is very difficult, even if you expressly set yourself the task of doing so. So the chances that any statement you care about as an algebraic geometer is unprovable in ZFC are very small. However, if you want a meta-theorem that "automatically" eliminates universes, then my understanding is that there isn't one---not because of any fundamental obstacle, but because practitioners don't write in a way that makes it easy to formulate a suitable meta-theorem.
$endgroup$
– Timothy Chow
May 13 at 18:36
2
$begingroup$
@TimothyChow Some care is needed with that paper, in my opinion, in particular around what McLarty means by "uses universes." I don't think he makes any claim that universes are actually needed, merely that they served as a simplifying tool for introducing some large-scale concepts used in the proof. Personally, my read of that paper was as at least in part a defense of the use of unnecessarily powerful methods (with which I agree wholeheartedly).
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 23:25
1
$begingroup$
McLarty has gone further, and shown that much less than ZFC is required for derived functor cohomology, and the less assumed on the schemes of interest (for instance, Noetherian, or countable), the weaker the axioms needed.
$endgroup$
– David Roberts
May 14 at 2:17
3
$begingroup$
@MattF. I am not sure I understand. I believe the statement "every non-empty affine scheme has a closed point" is equivalent to the axiom of choice (as claimed here: arxiv.org/abs/1708.06494). Can you explain what are "the ordinary questions" in algebraic geometry?
$endgroup$
– schematic_boi
May 14 at 7:09
|
show 24 more comments
3
$begingroup$
"without giving a reference" That may be because no reference exists: I suspect this is the sort of thing where everyone familiar with the relevant arguments knows that they only need very concrete facts about etale cohomology, but nobody's bothered to write it up because it would be both straightforward and tedious. (Confession: I actually have no idea, being a complete doofus in the relevant topic, but this is what I've been told by people who aren't doofoi.)
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 17:05
1
$begingroup$
In general, finding a "natural" mathematical statement that is unprovable in ZFC (and that makes no overt mention of uncountable sets) is very difficult, even if you expressly set yourself the task of doing so. So the chances that any statement you care about as an algebraic geometer is unprovable in ZFC are very small. However, if you want a meta-theorem that "automatically" eliminates universes, then my understanding is that there isn't one---not because of any fundamental obstacle, but because practitioners don't write in a way that makes it easy to formulate a suitable meta-theorem.
$endgroup$
– Timothy Chow
May 13 at 18:36
2
$begingroup$
@TimothyChow Some care is needed with that paper, in my opinion, in particular around what McLarty means by "uses universes." I don't think he makes any claim that universes are actually needed, merely that they served as a simplifying tool for introducing some large-scale concepts used in the proof. Personally, my read of that paper was as at least in part a defense of the use of unnecessarily powerful methods (with which I agree wholeheartedly).
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 23:25
1
$begingroup$
McLarty has gone further, and shown that much less than ZFC is required for derived functor cohomology, and the less assumed on the schemes of interest (for instance, Noetherian, or countable), the weaker the axioms needed.
$endgroup$
– David Roberts
May 14 at 2:17
3
$begingroup$
@MattF. I am not sure I understand. I believe the statement "every non-empty affine scheme has a closed point" is equivalent to the axiom of choice (as claimed here: arxiv.org/abs/1708.06494). Can you explain what are "the ordinary questions" in algebraic geometry?
$endgroup$
– schematic_boi
May 14 at 7:09
3
3
$begingroup$
"without giving a reference" That may be because no reference exists: I suspect this is the sort of thing where everyone familiar with the relevant arguments knows that they only need very concrete facts about etale cohomology, but nobody's bothered to write it up because it would be both straightforward and tedious. (Confession: I actually have no idea, being a complete doofus in the relevant topic, but this is what I've been told by people who aren't doofoi.)
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 17:05
$begingroup$
"without giving a reference" That may be because no reference exists: I suspect this is the sort of thing where everyone familiar with the relevant arguments knows that they only need very concrete facts about etale cohomology, but nobody's bothered to write it up because it would be both straightforward and tedious. (Confession: I actually have no idea, being a complete doofus in the relevant topic, but this is what I've been told by people who aren't doofoi.)
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 17:05
1
1
$begingroup$
In general, finding a "natural" mathematical statement that is unprovable in ZFC (and that makes no overt mention of uncountable sets) is very difficult, even if you expressly set yourself the task of doing so. So the chances that any statement you care about as an algebraic geometer is unprovable in ZFC are very small. However, if you want a meta-theorem that "automatically" eliminates universes, then my understanding is that there isn't one---not because of any fundamental obstacle, but because practitioners don't write in a way that makes it easy to formulate a suitable meta-theorem.
$endgroup$
– Timothy Chow
May 13 at 18:36
$begingroup$
In general, finding a "natural" mathematical statement that is unprovable in ZFC (and that makes no overt mention of uncountable sets) is very difficult, even if you expressly set yourself the task of doing so. So the chances that any statement you care about as an algebraic geometer is unprovable in ZFC are very small. However, if you want a meta-theorem that "automatically" eliminates universes, then my understanding is that there isn't one---not because of any fundamental obstacle, but because practitioners don't write in a way that makes it easy to formulate a suitable meta-theorem.
$endgroup$
– Timothy Chow
May 13 at 18:36
2
2
$begingroup$
@TimothyChow Some care is needed with that paper, in my opinion, in particular around what McLarty means by "uses universes." I don't think he makes any claim that universes are actually needed, merely that they served as a simplifying tool for introducing some large-scale concepts used in the proof. Personally, my read of that paper was as at least in part a defense of the use of unnecessarily powerful methods (with which I agree wholeheartedly).
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 23:25
$begingroup$
@TimothyChow Some care is needed with that paper, in my opinion, in particular around what McLarty means by "uses universes." I don't think he makes any claim that universes are actually needed, merely that they served as a simplifying tool for introducing some large-scale concepts used in the proof. Personally, my read of that paper was as at least in part a defense of the use of unnecessarily powerful methods (with which I agree wholeheartedly).
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 23:25
1
1
$begingroup$
McLarty has gone further, and shown that much less than ZFC is required for derived functor cohomology, and the less assumed on the schemes of interest (for instance, Noetherian, or countable), the weaker the axioms needed.
$endgroup$
– David Roberts
May 14 at 2:17
$begingroup$
McLarty has gone further, and shown that much less than ZFC is required for derived functor cohomology, and the less assumed on the schemes of interest (for instance, Noetherian, or countable), the weaker the axioms needed.
$endgroup$
– David Roberts
May 14 at 2:17
3
3
$begingroup$
@MattF. I am not sure I understand. I believe the statement "every non-empty affine scheme has a closed point" is equivalent to the axiom of choice (as claimed here: arxiv.org/abs/1708.06494). Can you explain what are "the ordinary questions" in algebraic geometry?
$endgroup$
– schematic_boi
May 14 at 7:09
$begingroup$
@MattF. I am not sure I understand. I believe the statement "every non-empty affine scheme has a closed point" is equivalent to the axiom of choice (as claimed here: arxiv.org/abs/1708.06494). Can you explain what are "the ordinary questions" in algebraic geometry?
$endgroup$
– schematic_boi
May 14 at 7:09
|
show 24 more comments
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
It's inherently difficult to give a negative answer to a question like this, but here's a technical fact that pushes in that direction:
Let ZFC$_n$ be the subtheory of ZFC gotten by restricting Separation and Replacement to $Sigma_n$ formulas. By the reflection principle,$^1$ for each $n$ the theory ZFC proves that there is an ordinal $alpha_n$ such that $V_alpha_nmodels$ ZFC$_n$. That is: $$mboxFor each $ninmathbbN$, ZFC proves Con(ZFC$_n$).$$
We can think of the $V_alpha_n$s as "approximate universes" which behave like universes for all "sufficiently simple" formulas, the point being that if you specify a complexity level ahead of time you can always assume you have an approximate universe appropriate to that complexity level.
Now the compactness theorem now naively suggests that - since we can only ever use finitely many sentences in a given proof - any argument with universes whatsoever can be replaced with one involving just approximate universes, and hence a proof in ZFC. This is of course false, but counterexamples have to be "global" as opposed to "local" - they need to at some point refer to the whole of the universe in question as a single completed object.
For exampe, the way ZFC + universes proves the consistency of ZFC is by showing that a universe $U$ is a model of ZFC. The statement "$Umodels$ ZFC" is expressed in the language of set theory by talking about Skolem functions over $U$ (or something morally equivalent), and this takes place in the context of the powerset of $U$. But this sort of thing isn't to my knowledge how universes are applied in algebraic geometry - they instead use a universe to argue that a "sufficiently closed" object exists in that universe, and this "local" argument is exactly the sort of thing that the reflection principle tells us can generally be reduced to ZFC alone.
Basically, a candidate example needs to not just take place inside a universe, but rather over a universe.
That said, there is an obvious place to look for such: arguments using two (or $n$) universes. The larger universe does see the smaller universe as a completed object, so the coarse heuristic above suggests that we can replace only the larger universe with an approximate universe - that is, that arguments which are quickly phrased in terms of two universes can be directly translated to arguments involving only one universe. Now we can't cheat anymore - we nee actual arguments about algebraic geometry. My understanding is that we're still in a situation where universes are an unnecessary convenience, but now I'm far outside of my area of competence. Still, the above should give an indication of why a real essential use of universes in a concrete result (which will certainly only involve reference to a small fragment of the cumulative hierarchy) would be very surprising.
$^1$OK fine, the reflection principle is usually phrased for finite subtheories of ZFC. But $(i)$ that's not really any different as far as the heuristic is concerned, just more annoying to work with; and $(ii)$ the stronger version of reflection I've stated is also true (the point being that for each $n$, the schemes of $Sigma_n$-Separation and -Replacement can be expressed in the language of set theory by a single sentence, which in turn can be proved from finitely many of the ZFC axioms which we can bash with the usual reflection hammer).
And on that note, it's worth pointing out two facts about reflection which help flesh out the picture:
First, given that ZFC proves the compactness theorem, we seem to be in tension with Godel's incompleteness theorem. What saves us is that "$forall n$" and "ZFC proves" don't commute (unless ZFC is inconsistent of course): while ZFC does prove each specific instance of reflection, it can't prove the full version (unless, again, it's inconsistent).
It's also worth noting that a similar result holds for (first-order) Peano arithmetic (as does the analogous version of the previous bulletpoint), although of course we need to talk about mere consistent Henkinized complete theories as opposed to canonical-ish models. As a cute consequence, Kripke used this fact to give a purely model-theoretic proof of Godel's incompleteness theorem (in the absence of reflection, his argument would require the soundness of PA, similarly to how Godel's original argument assumed $omega$-consistency rather than mere consistency).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
In fact, I very much doubt that there's a single instance where Grothendieck universes are used where it wouldn't suffice to have a model of, say, ZFC with Replacement limited to $Sigma_1$ formulas (let's keep full Separation to be sure); and for this, the $V_δ$ where $δ$ is a fixed point of $αmapstobeth_α$ provide a good supply. In what usual mathematical reasoning would such a $V_δ$ not suffice as a “universe”? (OK, maybe let $δ$ be of uncountable cofinality to get closure under sequences as well.) Who ever uses (uncountable) $Sigma_2$ replacement outside of set theory?
$endgroup$
– Gro-Tsen
May 13 at 21:12
2
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber : What I am most impressed by is that you used a word ("doofositude") that I understood the meaning of immediately, yet which gets zero Google hits.
$endgroup$
– Timothy Chow
May 13 at 22:36
1
$begingroup$
@TimothyChow I'm also proud of "doofoi."
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 22:37
1
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber I'd have gone with "doofi" myself :)
$endgroup$
– Yemon Choi
May 14 at 0:15
1
$begingroup$
Or doofopodes :-)
$endgroup$
– David Roberts
May 14 at 2:18
|
show 3 more comments
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "504"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: true,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: 10,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmathoverflow.net%2fquestions%2f331441%2fdo-grothendieck-universes-matter-for-an-algebraic-geometer%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
It's inherently difficult to give a negative answer to a question like this, but here's a technical fact that pushes in that direction:
Let ZFC$_n$ be the subtheory of ZFC gotten by restricting Separation and Replacement to $Sigma_n$ formulas. By the reflection principle,$^1$ for each $n$ the theory ZFC proves that there is an ordinal $alpha_n$ such that $V_alpha_nmodels$ ZFC$_n$. That is: $$mboxFor each $ninmathbbN$, ZFC proves Con(ZFC$_n$).$$
We can think of the $V_alpha_n$s as "approximate universes" which behave like universes for all "sufficiently simple" formulas, the point being that if you specify a complexity level ahead of time you can always assume you have an approximate universe appropriate to that complexity level.
Now the compactness theorem now naively suggests that - since we can only ever use finitely many sentences in a given proof - any argument with universes whatsoever can be replaced with one involving just approximate universes, and hence a proof in ZFC. This is of course false, but counterexamples have to be "global" as opposed to "local" - they need to at some point refer to the whole of the universe in question as a single completed object.
For exampe, the way ZFC + universes proves the consistency of ZFC is by showing that a universe $U$ is a model of ZFC. The statement "$Umodels$ ZFC" is expressed in the language of set theory by talking about Skolem functions over $U$ (or something morally equivalent), and this takes place in the context of the powerset of $U$. But this sort of thing isn't to my knowledge how universes are applied in algebraic geometry - they instead use a universe to argue that a "sufficiently closed" object exists in that universe, and this "local" argument is exactly the sort of thing that the reflection principle tells us can generally be reduced to ZFC alone.
Basically, a candidate example needs to not just take place inside a universe, but rather over a universe.
That said, there is an obvious place to look for such: arguments using two (or $n$) universes. The larger universe does see the smaller universe as a completed object, so the coarse heuristic above suggests that we can replace only the larger universe with an approximate universe - that is, that arguments which are quickly phrased in terms of two universes can be directly translated to arguments involving only one universe. Now we can't cheat anymore - we nee actual arguments about algebraic geometry. My understanding is that we're still in a situation where universes are an unnecessary convenience, but now I'm far outside of my area of competence. Still, the above should give an indication of why a real essential use of universes in a concrete result (which will certainly only involve reference to a small fragment of the cumulative hierarchy) would be very surprising.
$^1$OK fine, the reflection principle is usually phrased for finite subtheories of ZFC. But $(i)$ that's not really any different as far as the heuristic is concerned, just more annoying to work with; and $(ii)$ the stronger version of reflection I've stated is also true (the point being that for each $n$, the schemes of $Sigma_n$-Separation and -Replacement can be expressed in the language of set theory by a single sentence, which in turn can be proved from finitely many of the ZFC axioms which we can bash with the usual reflection hammer).
And on that note, it's worth pointing out two facts about reflection which help flesh out the picture:
First, given that ZFC proves the compactness theorem, we seem to be in tension with Godel's incompleteness theorem. What saves us is that "$forall n$" and "ZFC proves" don't commute (unless ZFC is inconsistent of course): while ZFC does prove each specific instance of reflection, it can't prove the full version (unless, again, it's inconsistent).
It's also worth noting that a similar result holds for (first-order) Peano arithmetic (as does the analogous version of the previous bulletpoint), although of course we need to talk about mere consistent Henkinized complete theories as opposed to canonical-ish models. As a cute consequence, Kripke used this fact to give a purely model-theoretic proof of Godel's incompleteness theorem (in the absence of reflection, his argument would require the soundness of PA, similarly to how Godel's original argument assumed $omega$-consistency rather than mere consistency).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
In fact, I very much doubt that there's a single instance where Grothendieck universes are used where it wouldn't suffice to have a model of, say, ZFC with Replacement limited to $Sigma_1$ formulas (let's keep full Separation to be sure); and for this, the $V_δ$ where $δ$ is a fixed point of $αmapstobeth_α$ provide a good supply. In what usual mathematical reasoning would such a $V_δ$ not suffice as a “universe”? (OK, maybe let $δ$ be of uncountable cofinality to get closure under sequences as well.) Who ever uses (uncountable) $Sigma_2$ replacement outside of set theory?
$endgroup$
– Gro-Tsen
May 13 at 21:12
2
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber : What I am most impressed by is that you used a word ("doofositude") that I understood the meaning of immediately, yet which gets zero Google hits.
$endgroup$
– Timothy Chow
May 13 at 22:36
1
$begingroup$
@TimothyChow I'm also proud of "doofoi."
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 22:37
1
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber I'd have gone with "doofi" myself :)
$endgroup$
– Yemon Choi
May 14 at 0:15
1
$begingroup$
Or doofopodes :-)
$endgroup$
– David Roberts
May 14 at 2:18
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
It's inherently difficult to give a negative answer to a question like this, but here's a technical fact that pushes in that direction:
Let ZFC$_n$ be the subtheory of ZFC gotten by restricting Separation and Replacement to $Sigma_n$ formulas. By the reflection principle,$^1$ for each $n$ the theory ZFC proves that there is an ordinal $alpha_n$ such that $V_alpha_nmodels$ ZFC$_n$. That is: $$mboxFor each $ninmathbbN$, ZFC proves Con(ZFC$_n$).$$
We can think of the $V_alpha_n$s as "approximate universes" which behave like universes for all "sufficiently simple" formulas, the point being that if you specify a complexity level ahead of time you can always assume you have an approximate universe appropriate to that complexity level.
Now the compactness theorem now naively suggests that - since we can only ever use finitely many sentences in a given proof - any argument with universes whatsoever can be replaced with one involving just approximate universes, and hence a proof in ZFC. This is of course false, but counterexamples have to be "global" as opposed to "local" - they need to at some point refer to the whole of the universe in question as a single completed object.
For exampe, the way ZFC + universes proves the consistency of ZFC is by showing that a universe $U$ is a model of ZFC. The statement "$Umodels$ ZFC" is expressed in the language of set theory by talking about Skolem functions over $U$ (or something morally equivalent), and this takes place in the context of the powerset of $U$. But this sort of thing isn't to my knowledge how universes are applied in algebraic geometry - they instead use a universe to argue that a "sufficiently closed" object exists in that universe, and this "local" argument is exactly the sort of thing that the reflection principle tells us can generally be reduced to ZFC alone.
Basically, a candidate example needs to not just take place inside a universe, but rather over a universe.
That said, there is an obvious place to look for such: arguments using two (or $n$) universes. The larger universe does see the smaller universe as a completed object, so the coarse heuristic above suggests that we can replace only the larger universe with an approximate universe - that is, that arguments which are quickly phrased in terms of two universes can be directly translated to arguments involving only one universe. Now we can't cheat anymore - we nee actual arguments about algebraic geometry. My understanding is that we're still in a situation where universes are an unnecessary convenience, but now I'm far outside of my area of competence. Still, the above should give an indication of why a real essential use of universes in a concrete result (which will certainly only involve reference to a small fragment of the cumulative hierarchy) would be very surprising.
$^1$OK fine, the reflection principle is usually phrased for finite subtheories of ZFC. But $(i)$ that's not really any different as far as the heuristic is concerned, just more annoying to work with; and $(ii)$ the stronger version of reflection I've stated is also true (the point being that for each $n$, the schemes of $Sigma_n$-Separation and -Replacement can be expressed in the language of set theory by a single sentence, which in turn can be proved from finitely many of the ZFC axioms which we can bash with the usual reflection hammer).
And on that note, it's worth pointing out two facts about reflection which help flesh out the picture:
First, given that ZFC proves the compactness theorem, we seem to be in tension with Godel's incompleteness theorem. What saves us is that "$forall n$" and "ZFC proves" don't commute (unless ZFC is inconsistent of course): while ZFC does prove each specific instance of reflection, it can't prove the full version (unless, again, it's inconsistent).
It's also worth noting that a similar result holds for (first-order) Peano arithmetic (as does the analogous version of the previous bulletpoint), although of course we need to talk about mere consistent Henkinized complete theories as opposed to canonical-ish models. As a cute consequence, Kripke used this fact to give a purely model-theoretic proof of Godel's incompleteness theorem (in the absence of reflection, his argument would require the soundness of PA, similarly to how Godel's original argument assumed $omega$-consistency rather than mere consistency).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
In fact, I very much doubt that there's a single instance where Grothendieck universes are used where it wouldn't suffice to have a model of, say, ZFC with Replacement limited to $Sigma_1$ formulas (let's keep full Separation to be sure); and for this, the $V_δ$ where $δ$ is a fixed point of $αmapstobeth_α$ provide a good supply. In what usual mathematical reasoning would such a $V_δ$ not suffice as a “universe”? (OK, maybe let $δ$ be of uncountable cofinality to get closure under sequences as well.) Who ever uses (uncountable) $Sigma_2$ replacement outside of set theory?
$endgroup$
– Gro-Tsen
May 13 at 21:12
2
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber : What I am most impressed by is that you used a word ("doofositude") that I understood the meaning of immediately, yet which gets zero Google hits.
$endgroup$
– Timothy Chow
May 13 at 22:36
1
$begingroup$
@TimothyChow I'm also proud of "doofoi."
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 22:37
1
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber I'd have gone with "doofi" myself :)
$endgroup$
– Yemon Choi
May 14 at 0:15
1
$begingroup$
Or doofopodes :-)
$endgroup$
– David Roberts
May 14 at 2:18
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
It's inherently difficult to give a negative answer to a question like this, but here's a technical fact that pushes in that direction:
Let ZFC$_n$ be the subtheory of ZFC gotten by restricting Separation and Replacement to $Sigma_n$ formulas. By the reflection principle,$^1$ for each $n$ the theory ZFC proves that there is an ordinal $alpha_n$ such that $V_alpha_nmodels$ ZFC$_n$. That is: $$mboxFor each $ninmathbbN$, ZFC proves Con(ZFC$_n$).$$
We can think of the $V_alpha_n$s as "approximate universes" which behave like universes for all "sufficiently simple" formulas, the point being that if you specify a complexity level ahead of time you can always assume you have an approximate universe appropriate to that complexity level.
Now the compactness theorem now naively suggests that - since we can only ever use finitely many sentences in a given proof - any argument with universes whatsoever can be replaced with one involving just approximate universes, and hence a proof in ZFC. This is of course false, but counterexamples have to be "global" as opposed to "local" - they need to at some point refer to the whole of the universe in question as a single completed object.
For exampe, the way ZFC + universes proves the consistency of ZFC is by showing that a universe $U$ is a model of ZFC. The statement "$Umodels$ ZFC" is expressed in the language of set theory by talking about Skolem functions over $U$ (or something morally equivalent), and this takes place in the context of the powerset of $U$. But this sort of thing isn't to my knowledge how universes are applied in algebraic geometry - they instead use a universe to argue that a "sufficiently closed" object exists in that universe, and this "local" argument is exactly the sort of thing that the reflection principle tells us can generally be reduced to ZFC alone.
Basically, a candidate example needs to not just take place inside a universe, but rather over a universe.
That said, there is an obvious place to look for such: arguments using two (or $n$) universes. The larger universe does see the smaller universe as a completed object, so the coarse heuristic above suggests that we can replace only the larger universe with an approximate universe - that is, that arguments which are quickly phrased in terms of two universes can be directly translated to arguments involving only one universe. Now we can't cheat anymore - we nee actual arguments about algebraic geometry. My understanding is that we're still in a situation where universes are an unnecessary convenience, but now I'm far outside of my area of competence. Still, the above should give an indication of why a real essential use of universes in a concrete result (which will certainly only involve reference to a small fragment of the cumulative hierarchy) would be very surprising.
$^1$OK fine, the reflection principle is usually phrased for finite subtheories of ZFC. But $(i)$ that's not really any different as far as the heuristic is concerned, just more annoying to work with; and $(ii)$ the stronger version of reflection I've stated is also true (the point being that for each $n$, the schemes of $Sigma_n$-Separation and -Replacement can be expressed in the language of set theory by a single sentence, which in turn can be proved from finitely many of the ZFC axioms which we can bash with the usual reflection hammer).
And on that note, it's worth pointing out two facts about reflection which help flesh out the picture:
First, given that ZFC proves the compactness theorem, we seem to be in tension with Godel's incompleteness theorem. What saves us is that "$forall n$" and "ZFC proves" don't commute (unless ZFC is inconsistent of course): while ZFC does prove each specific instance of reflection, it can't prove the full version (unless, again, it's inconsistent).
It's also worth noting that a similar result holds for (first-order) Peano arithmetic (as does the analogous version of the previous bulletpoint), although of course we need to talk about mere consistent Henkinized complete theories as opposed to canonical-ish models. As a cute consequence, Kripke used this fact to give a purely model-theoretic proof of Godel's incompleteness theorem (in the absence of reflection, his argument would require the soundness of PA, similarly to how Godel's original argument assumed $omega$-consistency rather than mere consistency).
$endgroup$
It's inherently difficult to give a negative answer to a question like this, but here's a technical fact that pushes in that direction:
Let ZFC$_n$ be the subtheory of ZFC gotten by restricting Separation and Replacement to $Sigma_n$ formulas. By the reflection principle,$^1$ for each $n$ the theory ZFC proves that there is an ordinal $alpha_n$ such that $V_alpha_nmodels$ ZFC$_n$. That is: $$mboxFor each $ninmathbbN$, ZFC proves Con(ZFC$_n$).$$
We can think of the $V_alpha_n$s as "approximate universes" which behave like universes for all "sufficiently simple" formulas, the point being that if you specify a complexity level ahead of time you can always assume you have an approximate universe appropriate to that complexity level.
Now the compactness theorem now naively suggests that - since we can only ever use finitely many sentences in a given proof - any argument with universes whatsoever can be replaced with one involving just approximate universes, and hence a proof in ZFC. This is of course false, but counterexamples have to be "global" as opposed to "local" - they need to at some point refer to the whole of the universe in question as a single completed object.
For exampe, the way ZFC + universes proves the consistency of ZFC is by showing that a universe $U$ is a model of ZFC. The statement "$Umodels$ ZFC" is expressed in the language of set theory by talking about Skolem functions over $U$ (or something morally equivalent), and this takes place in the context of the powerset of $U$. But this sort of thing isn't to my knowledge how universes are applied in algebraic geometry - they instead use a universe to argue that a "sufficiently closed" object exists in that universe, and this "local" argument is exactly the sort of thing that the reflection principle tells us can generally be reduced to ZFC alone.
Basically, a candidate example needs to not just take place inside a universe, but rather over a universe.
That said, there is an obvious place to look for such: arguments using two (or $n$) universes. The larger universe does see the smaller universe as a completed object, so the coarse heuristic above suggests that we can replace only the larger universe with an approximate universe - that is, that arguments which are quickly phrased in terms of two universes can be directly translated to arguments involving only one universe. Now we can't cheat anymore - we nee actual arguments about algebraic geometry. My understanding is that we're still in a situation where universes are an unnecessary convenience, but now I'm far outside of my area of competence. Still, the above should give an indication of why a real essential use of universes in a concrete result (which will certainly only involve reference to a small fragment of the cumulative hierarchy) would be very surprising.
$^1$OK fine, the reflection principle is usually phrased for finite subtheories of ZFC. But $(i)$ that's not really any different as far as the heuristic is concerned, just more annoying to work with; and $(ii)$ the stronger version of reflection I've stated is also true (the point being that for each $n$, the schemes of $Sigma_n$-Separation and -Replacement can be expressed in the language of set theory by a single sentence, which in turn can be proved from finitely many of the ZFC axioms which we can bash with the usual reflection hammer).
And on that note, it's worth pointing out two facts about reflection which help flesh out the picture:
First, given that ZFC proves the compactness theorem, we seem to be in tension with Godel's incompleteness theorem. What saves us is that "$forall n$" and "ZFC proves" don't commute (unless ZFC is inconsistent of course): while ZFC does prove each specific instance of reflection, it can't prove the full version (unless, again, it's inconsistent).
It's also worth noting that a similar result holds for (first-order) Peano arithmetic (as does the analogous version of the previous bulletpoint), although of course we need to talk about mere consistent Henkinized complete theories as opposed to canonical-ish models. As a cute consequence, Kripke used this fact to give a purely model-theoretic proof of Godel's incompleteness theorem (in the absence of reflection, his argument would require the soundness of PA, similarly to how Godel's original argument assumed $omega$-consistency rather than mere consistency).
edited May 13 at 17:39
answered May 13 at 17:26
Noah SchweberNoah Schweber
19.7k350150
19.7k350150
$begingroup$
In fact, I very much doubt that there's a single instance where Grothendieck universes are used where it wouldn't suffice to have a model of, say, ZFC with Replacement limited to $Sigma_1$ formulas (let's keep full Separation to be sure); and for this, the $V_δ$ where $δ$ is a fixed point of $αmapstobeth_α$ provide a good supply. In what usual mathematical reasoning would such a $V_δ$ not suffice as a “universe”? (OK, maybe let $δ$ be of uncountable cofinality to get closure under sequences as well.) Who ever uses (uncountable) $Sigma_2$ replacement outside of set theory?
$endgroup$
– Gro-Tsen
May 13 at 21:12
2
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber : What I am most impressed by is that you used a word ("doofositude") that I understood the meaning of immediately, yet which gets zero Google hits.
$endgroup$
– Timothy Chow
May 13 at 22:36
1
$begingroup$
@TimothyChow I'm also proud of "doofoi."
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 22:37
1
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber I'd have gone with "doofi" myself :)
$endgroup$
– Yemon Choi
May 14 at 0:15
1
$begingroup$
Or doofopodes :-)
$endgroup$
– David Roberts
May 14 at 2:18
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
In fact, I very much doubt that there's a single instance where Grothendieck universes are used where it wouldn't suffice to have a model of, say, ZFC with Replacement limited to $Sigma_1$ formulas (let's keep full Separation to be sure); and for this, the $V_δ$ where $δ$ is a fixed point of $αmapstobeth_α$ provide a good supply. In what usual mathematical reasoning would such a $V_δ$ not suffice as a “universe”? (OK, maybe let $δ$ be of uncountable cofinality to get closure under sequences as well.) Who ever uses (uncountable) $Sigma_2$ replacement outside of set theory?
$endgroup$
– Gro-Tsen
May 13 at 21:12
2
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber : What I am most impressed by is that you used a word ("doofositude") that I understood the meaning of immediately, yet which gets zero Google hits.
$endgroup$
– Timothy Chow
May 13 at 22:36
1
$begingroup$
@TimothyChow I'm also proud of "doofoi."
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 22:37
1
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber I'd have gone with "doofi" myself :)
$endgroup$
– Yemon Choi
May 14 at 0:15
1
$begingroup$
Or doofopodes :-)
$endgroup$
– David Roberts
May 14 at 2:18
$begingroup$
In fact, I very much doubt that there's a single instance where Grothendieck universes are used where it wouldn't suffice to have a model of, say, ZFC with Replacement limited to $Sigma_1$ formulas (let's keep full Separation to be sure); and for this, the $V_δ$ where $δ$ is a fixed point of $αmapstobeth_α$ provide a good supply. In what usual mathematical reasoning would such a $V_δ$ not suffice as a “universe”? (OK, maybe let $δ$ be of uncountable cofinality to get closure under sequences as well.) Who ever uses (uncountable) $Sigma_2$ replacement outside of set theory?
$endgroup$
– Gro-Tsen
May 13 at 21:12
$begingroup$
In fact, I very much doubt that there's a single instance where Grothendieck universes are used where it wouldn't suffice to have a model of, say, ZFC with Replacement limited to $Sigma_1$ formulas (let's keep full Separation to be sure); and for this, the $V_δ$ where $δ$ is a fixed point of $αmapstobeth_α$ provide a good supply. In what usual mathematical reasoning would such a $V_δ$ not suffice as a “universe”? (OK, maybe let $δ$ be of uncountable cofinality to get closure under sequences as well.) Who ever uses (uncountable) $Sigma_2$ replacement outside of set theory?
$endgroup$
– Gro-Tsen
May 13 at 21:12
2
2
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber : What I am most impressed by is that you used a word ("doofositude") that I understood the meaning of immediately, yet which gets zero Google hits.
$endgroup$
– Timothy Chow
May 13 at 22:36
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber : What I am most impressed by is that you used a word ("doofositude") that I understood the meaning of immediately, yet which gets zero Google hits.
$endgroup$
– Timothy Chow
May 13 at 22:36
1
1
$begingroup$
@TimothyChow I'm also proud of "doofoi."
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 22:37
$begingroup$
@TimothyChow I'm also proud of "doofoi."
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 22:37
1
1
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber I'd have gone with "doofi" myself :)
$endgroup$
– Yemon Choi
May 14 at 0:15
$begingroup$
@NoahSchweber I'd have gone with "doofi" myself :)
$endgroup$
– Yemon Choi
May 14 at 0:15
1
1
$begingroup$
Or doofopodes :-)
$endgroup$
– David Roberts
May 14 at 2:18
$begingroup$
Or doofopodes :-)
$endgroup$
– David Roberts
May 14 at 2:18
|
show 3 more comments
Thanks for contributing an answer to MathOverflow!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmathoverflow.net%2fquestions%2f331441%2fdo-grothendieck-universes-matter-for-an-algebraic-geometer%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
3
$begingroup$
"without giving a reference" That may be because no reference exists: I suspect this is the sort of thing where everyone familiar with the relevant arguments knows that they only need very concrete facts about etale cohomology, but nobody's bothered to write it up because it would be both straightforward and tedious. (Confession: I actually have no idea, being a complete doofus in the relevant topic, but this is what I've been told by people who aren't doofoi.)
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 17:05
1
$begingroup$
In general, finding a "natural" mathematical statement that is unprovable in ZFC (and that makes no overt mention of uncountable sets) is very difficult, even if you expressly set yourself the task of doing so. So the chances that any statement you care about as an algebraic geometer is unprovable in ZFC are very small. However, if you want a meta-theorem that "automatically" eliminates universes, then my understanding is that there isn't one---not because of any fundamental obstacle, but because practitioners don't write in a way that makes it easy to formulate a suitable meta-theorem.
$endgroup$
– Timothy Chow
May 13 at 18:36
2
$begingroup$
@TimothyChow Some care is needed with that paper, in my opinion, in particular around what McLarty means by "uses universes." I don't think he makes any claim that universes are actually needed, merely that they served as a simplifying tool for introducing some large-scale concepts used in the proof. Personally, my read of that paper was as at least in part a defense of the use of unnecessarily powerful methods (with which I agree wholeheartedly).
$endgroup$
– Noah Schweber
May 13 at 23:25
1
$begingroup$
McLarty has gone further, and shown that much less than ZFC is required for derived functor cohomology, and the less assumed on the schemes of interest (for instance, Noetherian, or countable), the weaker the axioms needed.
$endgroup$
– David Roberts
May 14 at 2:17
3
$begingroup$
@MattF. I am not sure I understand. I believe the statement "every non-empty affine scheme has a closed point" is equivalent to the axiom of choice (as claimed here: arxiv.org/abs/1708.06494). Can you explain what are "the ordinary questions" in algebraic geometry?
$endgroup$
– schematic_boi
May 14 at 7:09