Historically, were women trained for obligatory wars? Or did they serve some other military function?Is belief in Midrashim optional?When and why did the black velvet yarmulke become the standard for some communities?Who protected the women and children of Reuven, Gad, and 1/2 Manashe during the conquest?How did Paro know that “…that they may serve Me” meant sacrifices and not some other form of service?What did they do for shiurim before modern measurements?Source that Tisha B'av is the day of mourning for all tragedies, even if they did not fall out then?
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Historically, were women trained for obligatory wars? Or did they serve some other military function?
Is belief in Midrashim optional?When and why did the black velvet yarmulke become the standard for some communities?Who protected the women and children of Reuven, Gad, and 1/2 Manashe during the conquest?How did Paro know that “…that they may serve Me” meant sacrifices and not some other form of service?What did they do for shiurim before modern measurements?Source that Tisha B'av is the day of mourning for all tragedies, even if they did not fall out then?
Sotah 8:7 says that for obligatory wars all go out to fight, "even a bridegroom from his chamber and a bride from her canopy". Historically, was this in fact our practice? Did women participate in the conquest of the land (which Rabbi Yehudah says was an obligatory war) or in defending it before we were conquered and the temples destroyed? Did women fight alongside the men, or did they participate in ways that didn't involve fighting directly? It sounds like at least some of the women of Reuven and Gad stayed home during the conquest of the land.
If they fought, (how) were they trained?
I do know that Devorah not only fought but led troops, but as a prophet she might have had special circumstances.
history women army-military-war tractate-sotah
asked Apr 29 at 1:41
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38.4k582270
|
show 12 more comments
Sotah 8:7 says that for obligatory wars all go out to fight, "even a bridegroom from his chamber and a bride from her canopy". Historically, was this in fact our practice? Did women participate in the conquest of the land (which Rabbi Yehudah says was an obligatory war) or in defending it before we were conquered and the temples destroyed? Did women fight alongside the men, or did they participate in ways that didn't involve fighting directly? It sounds like at least some of the women of Reuven and Gad stayed home during the conquest of the land.
If they fought, (how) were they trained?
I do know that Devorah not only fought but led troops, but as a prophet she might have had special circumstances.
history women army-military-war tractate-sotah
asked Apr 29 at 1:41
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38.4k582270
Another such proof that only men went to war is from the passuk Devarim 20:8 "מי האיש הירא..." the passuk refers only to men.
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:26
1
As a support for your question, Kiddushin 2b states that “it’s the way of men to go to war, but not the way of women to go to war.” Similarly, Midrash Mishlei 31:5 says that Yael used a tent peg to kill Sisera because she didn’t carry any weapons, as per the prohibition against women wearing men’s garments.
– DonielF
Apr 29 at 2:52
@DonielF IMSMC Yael was not an Israelite...
– Loewian
Apr 29 at 4:28
sefaria.org/Judges.4.8?lang=bi&with=Commentary&lang2=en
– Loewian
Apr 29 at 4:37
1
Consider Numbers 32:26
– Double AA♦
2 days ago
|
show 12 more comments
Sotah 8:7 says that for obligatory wars all go out to fight, "even a bridegroom from his chamber and a bride from her canopy". Historically, was this in fact our practice? Did women participate in the conquest of the land (which Rabbi Yehudah says was an obligatory war) or in defending it before we were conquered and the temples destroyed? Did women fight alongside the men, or did they participate in ways that didn't involve fighting directly? It sounds like at least some of the women of Reuven and Gad stayed home during the conquest of the land.
If they fought, (how) were they trained?
I do know that Devorah not only fought but led troops, but as a prophet she might have had special circumstances.
history women army-military-war tractate-sotah
asked Apr 29 at 1:41
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38.4k582270
Sotah 8:7 says that for obligatory wars all go out to fight, "even a bridegroom from his chamber and a bride from her canopy". Historically, was this in fact our practice? Did women participate in the conquest of the land (which Rabbi Yehudah says was an obligatory war) or in defending it before we were conquered and the temples destroyed? Did women fight alongside the men, or did they participate in ways that didn't involve fighting directly? It sounds like at least some of the women of Reuven and Gad stayed home during the conquest of the land.
If they fought, (how) were they trained?
I do know that Devorah not only fought but led troops, but as a prophet she might have had special circumstances.
history women army-military-war tractate-sotah
history women army-military-war tractate-sotah
asked Apr 29 at 1:41
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38.4k582270
asked Apr 29 at 1:41
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38.4k582270
edited 2 days ago
Monica Cellio
asked Apr 29 at 1:41
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38.4k582270
asked Apr 29 at 1:41
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38.4k582270
asked Apr 29 at 1:41
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
38.4k582270
38.4k582270
Another such proof that only men went to war is from the passuk Devarim 20:8 "מי האיש הירא..." the passuk refers only to men.
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:26
1
As a support for your question, Kiddushin 2b states that “it’s the way of men to go to war, but not the way of women to go to war.” Similarly, Midrash Mishlei 31:5 says that Yael used a tent peg to kill Sisera because she didn’t carry any weapons, as per the prohibition against women wearing men’s garments.
– DonielF
Apr 29 at 2:52
@DonielF IMSMC Yael was not an Israelite...
– Loewian
Apr 29 at 4:28
sefaria.org/Judges.4.8?lang=bi&with=Commentary&lang2=en
– Loewian
Apr 29 at 4:37
1
Consider Numbers 32:26
– Double AA♦
2 days ago
|
show 12 more comments
Another such proof that only men went to war is from the passuk Devarim 20:8 "מי האיש הירא..." the passuk refers only to men.
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:26
1
As a support for your question, Kiddushin 2b states that “it’s the way of men to go to war, but not the way of women to go to war.” Similarly, Midrash Mishlei 31:5 says that Yael used a tent peg to kill Sisera because she didn’t carry any weapons, as per the prohibition against women wearing men’s garments.
– DonielF
Apr 29 at 2:52
@DonielF IMSMC Yael was not an Israelite...
– Loewian
Apr 29 at 4:28
sefaria.org/Judges.4.8?lang=bi&with=Commentary&lang2=en
– Loewian
Apr 29 at 4:37
1
Consider Numbers 32:26
– Double AA♦
2 days ago
Another such proof that only men went to war is from the passuk Devarim 20:8 "מי האיש הירא..." the passuk refers only to men.
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:26
Another such proof that only men went to war is from the passuk Devarim 20:8 "מי האיש הירא..." the passuk refers only to men.
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:26
1
1
As a support for your question, Kiddushin 2b states that “it’s the way of men to go to war, but not the way of women to go to war.” Similarly, Midrash Mishlei 31:5 says that Yael used a tent peg to kill Sisera because she didn’t carry any weapons, as per the prohibition against women wearing men’s garments.
– DonielF
Apr 29 at 2:52
As a support for your question, Kiddushin 2b states that “it’s the way of men to go to war, but not the way of women to go to war.” Similarly, Midrash Mishlei 31:5 says that Yael used a tent peg to kill Sisera because she didn’t carry any weapons, as per the prohibition against women wearing men’s garments.
– DonielF
Apr 29 at 2:52
@DonielF IMSMC Yael was not an Israelite...
– Loewian
Apr 29 at 4:28
@DonielF IMSMC Yael was not an Israelite...
– Loewian
Apr 29 at 4:28
sefaria.org/Judges.4.8?lang=bi&with=Commentary&lang2=en
– Loewian
Apr 29 at 4:37
sefaria.org/Judges.4.8?lang=bi&with=Commentary&lang2=en
– Loewian
Apr 29 at 4:37
1
1
Consider Numbers 32:26
– Double AA♦
2 days ago
Consider Numbers 32:26
– Double AA♦
2 days ago
|
show 12 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
In his commentary to Rambam's codification of this law (Hilchot Melachim 7:5), R. David Ibn Zimra asks:
ברייתא כלשון רבינו אלא דקשה וכי דרך הנשים לעשות מלחמה דקתני וכלה מחופתה והא כתיב כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה וי"ל דה"ק כיון דחתן יוצא מחדרו כלה יוצאה מחופתה שאינה נוהגת ימי חופה ואפשר דבמלחמת מצוה הנשים היו מספקות מים ומזון לבעליהן וכן המנהג היום בערביות
Is it the way of women to wage war? And he cites the verse (Psalms 45:14) "All glorious is the king's daughter within the palace" in support of this. He then suggests that the women were (not actively fighting, but) supplying food and water to their husbands, and he notes that this is the current practice of the Arab(?) women.
Note that R. David Ibn Zimra did not invent the idea that it is not the way of women to wage war. The Talmud in Kiddushin (2b) explicitly states this:
התם דבמלחמה קאי דדרכו של איש לעשות מלחמה ואין דרכה של אשה לעשות מלחמה כתב לה בלשון זכר
There, however, the reference is to war, and it is the practice of man to wage war, not of woman — therefore the masculine is employed. (Soncino translation)
answered Apr 29 at 2:12
AlexAlex
24.5k158137
You beat me to it,was about to type this
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:16
@sam ברוך שכוונתי
– Alex
Apr 29 at 2:17
It also should be noted that according to the Rambam a woman may be able to fight durimg a milchmes mitzvah,but not reshus
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:18
add a comment |
Yachin there:
אשה לאו בת מלחמה. רק לספק מזון ולתקן הדרכים אף היא יוצאת.
A woman is not able to combat, she did only provide food and repair roads.
edited 2 days ago
alicht
3,2891636
answered Apr 29 at 2:25
koutykouty
16.7k32049
Thank you. Who/what is Yachin?
– Monica Cellio♦
Apr 29 at 2:29
2
it is the comment Tiferet Israel on tne mishna who is divided in Yachin, for paraphrease and Boaz for extended discussions
– kouty
Apr 29 at 2:30
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
In his commentary to Rambam's codification of this law (Hilchot Melachim 7:5), R. David Ibn Zimra asks:
ברייתא כלשון רבינו אלא דקשה וכי דרך הנשים לעשות מלחמה דקתני וכלה מחופתה והא כתיב כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה וי"ל דה"ק כיון דחתן יוצא מחדרו כלה יוצאה מחופתה שאינה נוהגת ימי חופה ואפשר דבמלחמת מצוה הנשים היו מספקות מים ומזון לבעליהן וכן המנהג היום בערביות
Is it the way of women to wage war? And he cites the verse (Psalms 45:14) "All glorious is the king's daughter within the palace" in support of this. He then suggests that the women were (not actively fighting, but) supplying food and water to their husbands, and he notes that this is the current practice of the Arab(?) women.
Note that R. David Ibn Zimra did not invent the idea that it is not the way of women to wage war. The Talmud in Kiddushin (2b) explicitly states this:
התם דבמלחמה קאי דדרכו של איש לעשות מלחמה ואין דרכה של אשה לעשות מלחמה כתב לה בלשון זכר
There, however, the reference is to war, and it is the practice of man to wage war, not of woman — therefore the masculine is employed. (Soncino translation)
answered Apr 29 at 2:12
AlexAlex
24.5k158137
You beat me to it,was about to type this
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:16
@sam ברוך שכוונתי
– Alex
Apr 29 at 2:17
It also should be noted that according to the Rambam a woman may be able to fight durimg a milchmes mitzvah,but not reshus
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:18
add a comment |
In his commentary to Rambam's codification of this law (Hilchot Melachim 7:5), R. David Ibn Zimra asks:
ברייתא כלשון רבינו אלא דקשה וכי דרך הנשים לעשות מלחמה דקתני וכלה מחופתה והא כתיב כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה וי"ל דה"ק כיון דחתן יוצא מחדרו כלה יוצאה מחופתה שאינה נוהגת ימי חופה ואפשר דבמלחמת מצוה הנשים היו מספקות מים ומזון לבעליהן וכן המנהג היום בערביות
Is it the way of women to wage war? And he cites the verse (Psalms 45:14) "All glorious is the king's daughter within the palace" in support of this. He then suggests that the women were (not actively fighting, but) supplying food and water to their husbands, and he notes that this is the current practice of the Arab(?) women.
Note that R. David Ibn Zimra did not invent the idea that it is not the way of women to wage war. The Talmud in Kiddushin (2b) explicitly states this:
התם דבמלחמה קאי דדרכו של איש לעשות מלחמה ואין דרכה של אשה לעשות מלחמה כתב לה בלשון זכר
There, however, the reference is to war, and it is the practice of man to wage war, not of woman — therefore the masculine is employed. (Soncino translation)
answered Apr 29 at 2:12
AlexAlex
24.5k158137
You beat me to it,was about to type this
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:16
@sam ברוך שכוונתי
– Alex
Apr 29 at 2:17
It also should be noted that according to the Rambam a woman may be able to fight durimg a milchmes mitzvah,but not reshus
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:18
add a comment |
In his commentary to Rambam's codification of this law (Hilchot Melachim 7:5), R. David Ibn Zimra asks:
ברייתא כלשון רבינו אלא דקשה וכי דרך הנשים לעשות מלחמה דקתני וכלה מחופתה והא כתיב כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה וי"ל דה"ק כיון דחתן יוצא מחדרו כלה יוצאה מחופתה שאינה נוהגת ימי חופה ואפשר דבמלחמת מצוה הנשים היו מספקות מים ומזון לבעליהן וכן המנהג היום בערביות
Is it the way of women to wage war? And he cites the verse (Psalms 45:14) "All glorious is the king's daughter within the palace" in support of this. He then suggests that the women were (not actively fighting, but) supplying food and water to their husbands, and he notes that this is the current practice of the Arab(?) women.
Note that R. David Ibn Zimra did not invent the idea that it is not the way of women to wage war. The Talmud in Kiddushin (2b) explicitly states this:
התם דבמלחמה קאי דדרכו של איש לעשות מלחמה ואין דרכה של אשה לעשות מלחמה כתב לה בלשון זכר
There, however, the reference is to war, and it is the practice of man to wage war, not of woman — therefore the masculine is employed. (Soncino translation)
answered Apr 29 at 2:12
AlexAlex
24.5k158137
In his commentary to Rambam's codification of this law (Hilchot Melachim 7:5), R. David Ibn Zimra asks:
ברייתא כלשון רבינו אלא דקשה וכי דרך הנשים לעשות מלחמה דקתני וכלה מחופתה והא כתיב כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה וי"ל דה"ק כיון דחתן יוצא מחדרו כלה יוצאה מחופתה שאינה נוהגת ימי חופה ואפשר דבמלחמת מצוה הנשים היו מספקות מים ומזון לבעליהן וכן המנהג היום בערביות
Is it the way of women to wage war? And he cites the verse (Psalms 45:14) "All glorious is the king's daughter within the palace" in support of this. He then suggests that the women were (not actively fighting, but) supplying food and water to their husbands, and he notes that this is the current practice of the Arab(?) women.
Note that R. David Ibn Zimra did not invent the idea that it is not the way of women to wage war. The Talmud in Kiddushin (2b) explicitly states this:
התם דבמלחמה קאי דדרכו של איש לעשות מלחמה ואין דרכה של אשה לעשות מלחמה כתב לה בלשון זכר
There, however, the reference is to war, and it is the practice of man to wage war, not of woman — therefore the masculine is employed. (Soncino translation)
answered Apr 29 at 2:12
AlexAlex
24.5k158137
edited 2 days ago
answered Apr 29 at 2:12
AlexAlex
24.5k158137
answered Apr 29 at 2:12
AlexAlex
24.5k158137
answered Apr 29 at 2:12
AlexAlex
24.5k158137
24.5k158137
You beat me to it,was about to type this
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:16
@sam ברוך שכוונתי
– Alex
Apr 29 at 2:17
It also should be noted that according to the Rambam a woman may be able to fight durimg a milchmes mitzvah,but not reshus
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:18
add a comment |
You beat me to it,was about to type this
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:16
@sam ברוך שכוונתי
– Alex
Apr 29 at 2:17
It also should be noted that according to the Rambam a woman may be able to fight durimg a milchmes mitzvah,but not reshus
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:18
You beat me to it,was about to type this
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:16
You beat me to it,was about to type this
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:16
@sam ברוך שכוונתי
– Alex
Apr 29 at 2:17
@sam ברוך שכוונתי
– Alex
Apr 29 at 2:17
It also should be noted that according to the Rambam a woman may be able to fight durimg a milchmes mitzvah,but not reshus
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:18
It also should be noted that according to the Rambam a woman may be able to fight durimg a milchmes mitzvah,but not reshus
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:18
add a comment |
Yachin there:
אשה לאו בת מלחמה. רק לספק מזון ולתקן הדרכים אף היא יוצאת.
A woman is not able to combat, she did only provide food and repair roads.
edited 2 days ago
alicht
3,2891636
answered Apr 29 at 2:25
koutykouty
16.7k32049
Thank you. Who/what is Yachin?
– Monica Cellio♦
Apr 29 at 2:29
2
it is the comment Tiferet Israel on tne mishna who is divided in Yachin, for paraphrease and Boaz for extended discussions
– kouty
Apr 29 at 2:30
add a comment |
Yachin there:
אשה לאו בת מלחמה. רק לספק מזון ולתקן הדרכים אף היא יוצאת.
A woman is not able to combat, she did only provide food and repair roads.
edited 2 days ago
alicht
3,2891636
answered Apr 29 at 2:25
koutykouty
16.7k32049
Thank you. Who/what is Yachin?
– Monica Cellio♦
Apr 29 at 2:29
2
it is the comment Tiferet Israel on tne mishna who is divided in Yachin, for paraphrease and Boaz for extended discussions
– kouty
Apr 29 at 2:30
add a comment |
Yachin there:
אשה לאו בת מלחמה. רק לספק מזון ולתקן הדרכים אף היא יוצאת.
A woman is not able to combat, she did only provide food and repair roads.
edited 2 days ago
alicht
3,2891636
answered Apr 29 at 2:25
koutykouty
16.7k32049
Yachin there:
אשה לאו בת מלחמה. רק לספק מזון ולתקן הדרכים אף היא יוצאת.
A woman is not able to combat, she did only provide food and repair roads.
edited 2 days ago
alicht
3,2891636
answered Apr 29 at 2:25
koutykouty
16.7k32049
edited 2 days ago
alicht
3,2891636
edited 2 days ago
alicht
3,2891636
edited 2 days ago
alicht
3,2891636
3,2891636
answered Apr 29 at 2:25
koutykouty
16.7k32049
answered Apr 29 at 2:25
koutykouty
16.7k32049
answered Apr 29 at 2:25
koutykouty
16.7k32049
16.7k32049
Thank you. Who/what is Yachin?
– Monica Cellio♦
Apr 29 at 2:29
2
it is the comment Tiferet Israel on tne mishna who is divided in Yachin, for paraphrease and Boaz for extended discussions
– kouty
Apr 29 at 2:30
add a comment |
Thank you. Who/what is Yachin?
– Monica Cellio♦
Apr 29 at 2:29
2
it is the comment Tiferet Israel on tne mishna who is divided in Yachin, for paraphrease and Boaz for extended discussions
– kouty
Apr 29 at 2:30
Thank you. Who/what is Yachin?
– Monica Cellio♦
Apr 29 at 2:29
Thank you. Who/what is Yachin?
– Monica Cellio♦
Apr 29 at 2:29
2
2
it is the comment Tiferet Israel on tne mishna who is divided in Yachin, for paraphrease and Boaz for extended discussions
– kouty
Apr 29 at 2:30
it is the comment Tiferet Israel on tne mishna who is divided in Yachin, for paraphrease and Boaz for extended discussions
– kouty
Apr 29 at 2:30
add a comment |
Another such proof that only men went to war is from the passuk Devarim 20:8 "מי האיש הירא..." the passuk refers only to men.
– sam
Apr 29 at 2:26
1
As a support for your question, Kiddushin 2b states that “it’s the way of men to go to war, but not the way of women to go to war.” Similarly, Midrash Mishlei 31:5 says that Yael used a tent peg to kill Sisera because she didn’t carry any weapons, as per the prohibition against women wearing men’s garments.
– DonielF
Apr 29 at 2:52
@DonielF IMSMC Yael was not an Israelite...
– Loewian
Apr 29 at 4:28
sefaria.org/Judges.4.8?lang=bi&with=Commentary&lang2=en
– Loewian
Apr 29 at 4:37
1
Consider Numbers 32:26
– Double AA♦
2 days ago