Wifi light switch needs neutral wire. Why? AND Can that wire be a skinny one?Where do I run neutral from/to when replacing a SPST switch with one that requires neutral?How can I wire a new outlet from a light switch, with light switch set-up I've never seen before?Run additional wire from junction box to existing light switch?How to replace light switch that is daisy chained to other light switchesCan a white neutral wire be used as a three pole traveler wire?Trying to identify neutral wire in switch box to use with Wemo Light switch (more than one neutral wire seems to be present)Install TP Link Wifi Switch and problems along with itHow can I be sure a wire is truly neutral?Combine wireless and manual 3-way light switchNeutral wire is tied to my electric metal box, why is it so?

Why does Mjolnir fall down in Age of Ultron but not in Endgame?

Alignment: "Breaking out" of environment (enumerate / minipage)

Caught 2 students cheating together on the final exam that I proctored

Do photons bend spacetime or not?

Plot twist where the antagonist wins

How long until a random word with letters "A", "B", "C" ends in the pattern "ABC"?

What is a really good book for complex variables?

Where is the logic in castrating fighters?

Is the taxi route omitted in low visibility (LVP)?

Where have Brexit voters gone?

A Riley Respite

How do I partition a matrx into blocks and replace zeros with dots?

I unknowingly submitted plagarised work

Is it true that cut time means "play twice as fast as written"?

Pirate democracy at its finest

Why would Ryanair allow me to book this journey through a third party, but not through their own website?

Is the Indo-European language family made up?

Can I tell a prospective employee that everyone in the team is leaving?

Can a person survive on blood in place of water?

Does Nitrogen inside commercial airliner wheels prevent blowouts on touchdown?

What is Theresa May waiting for?

Should one buy new hardware after a system compromise?

Inconsistent results from Wolfram Could

Is real public IP Address hidden when using a system wide proxy in Windows 10?



Wifi light switch needs neutral wire. Why? AND Can that wire be a skinny one?


Where do I run neutral from/to when replacing a SPST switch with one that requires neutral?How can I wire a new outlet from a light switch, with light switch set-up I've never seen before?Run additional wire from junction box to existing light switch?How to replace light switch that is daisy chained to other light switchesCan a white neutral wire be used as a three pole traveler wire?Trying to identify neutral wire in switch box to use with Wemo Light switch (more than one neutral wire seems to be present)Install TP Link Wifi Switch and problems along with itHow can I be sure a wire is truly neutral?Combine wireless and manual 3-way light switchNeutral wire is tied to my electric metal box, why is it so?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








1















What does the neutral wire do on a light switch that responds to wifi?



My suspicion is that when the switch is in the off position, the electronics in the switch need to still be powered, so the neutral wire allows a tiny constant current through the switch so it can respond to a wifi instruction to actuate the switch.



If this is so, could the extra neutral wire going to the switch be a very light gauge wire?










share|improve this question









New contributor



Gyrobob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

























    1















    What does the neutral wire do on a light switch that responds to wifi?



    My suspicion is that when the switch is in the off position, the electronics in the switch need to still be powered, so the neutral wire allows a tiny constant current through the switch so it can respond to a wifi instruction to actuate the switch.



    If this is so, could the extra neutral wire going to the switch be a very light gauge wire?










    share|improve this question









    New contributor



    Gyrobob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.





















      1












      1








      1








      What does the neutral wire do on a light switch that responds to wifi?



      My suspicion is that when the switch is in the off position, the electronics in the switch need to still be powered, so the neutral wire allows a tiny constant current through the switch so it can respond to a wifi instruction to actuate the switch.



      If this is so, could the extra neutral wire going to the switch be a very light gauge wire?










      share|improve this question









      New contributor



      Gyrobob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      What does the neutral wire do on a light switch that responds to wifi?



      My suspicion is that when the switch is in the off position, the electronics in the switch need to still be powered, so the neutral wire allows a tiny constant current through the switch so it can respond to a wifi instruction to actuate the switch.



      If this is so, could the extra neutral wire going to the switch be a very light gauge wire?







      switch light neutral wifi smart-switch






      share|improve this question









      New contributor



      Gyrobob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.










      share|improve this question









      New contributor



      Gyrobob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.








      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited May 19 at 21:17









      manassehkatz

      12.5k11844




      12.5k11844






      New contributor



      Gyrobob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.








      asked May 19 at 20:49









      GyrobobGyrobob

      61




      61




      New contributor



      Gyrobob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.




      New contributor




      Gyrobob is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          3














          Because unlike a normal switch, the wifi switch needs power, so it needs a neutral wire to complete a circuit at the switch between the unswitched hot wire and neutral for that power.



          The neutral wire to the switch cannot be a light-gauge wire (at least if you are in an area subject to NEC codes; likely similar elsewhere in the world) because codes are based on what the circuit breaker protecting the circuit can supply when choosing wire size, so for 15A circuits the wire must be 14 Ga or larger, and for 20A circuits the wire must be 12Ga or larger. Smaller wires could overheat to the point of causing fires (without tripping the breaker) in the event of a fault condition, even if the normal current in them might be a matter of a few milliamperes.



          I regard wifi switches (and thermostats) with the baleful gaze that only a network admin can view such things askance with, but I gather that there are units arranged in such a manner that the actual switch/relay can go in the ceiling where the light fixture that the switch loop originates from is, and the switch loop wires can (without adding any) be repurposed to operate the remote switch in the wall, no longer actually running the power for the lights through there. This type of unit will probably be much easier to install than to attempt to add a neutral wire to a switch box without one.






          share|improve this answer

























          • I gave up. I'm just going to use another Ankuoo SW5101. It is a wifi-controlled plug-in outlet. I am already using two of them to control garage and workshop A/Cs. I'll just plug the Ankuoo SW5101 into a nearby wall outlet, and plug the line going to the fan I want to control into the Ankuoo SW5101. This bypasses the need for a fourth wire altogether. amazon.com/Ankuoo-Smart-Plug-Wi-Fi-White/dp/B00NAX2GVU/…

            – Gyrobob
            2 days ago


















          3














          That is correct. In the mains power world, we have 3 wires.



          EQUIPMENT SAFETY GROUND/EARTH which is not used for anything ever (except during a fault condition, of course)...



          HOT which is what humans consider the "source" of power... and



          NEUTRAL which is what humans consider the "power return". Obviously, it's AC, which makes "source" vs "return" rather arbitrary. This can be said: the system has equipotential bonding that, in normal conditions, places neutral quite close to safety earth. That's why it's called neutral.



          When you want to power something 24x7, it must be connected between HOT and NEUTRAL. If it is not, it won't have power. Since presumably you want the WiFi switch to respond to WiFi at all times, you need HOT and NEUTRAL to pull that off.



          You may be thinking of early dimmers. Those place themselves in series with the light bulb, so they connect between ALWAYS-HOT and SWITCHED-HOT. When the bulb is on, they create a small voltage drop and power themselves that way. When the bulb is off, they leak a small amount of current through the bulb, which works great with incandescents, but badly with most LEDs. It's possible to build a smart switch this way, in which case it does not need neutral. However it is difficult to design, and doesn't play well with most LEDs and CFLs. This can be solved by using 1 incandescent, or by putting a capacitor in parallel with the light bulbs so some power can leak through 24x7.



          A very small number of dimmers place themselves in series with the equipotential bonding that keeps neutral near ground. In short, they bootleg neutral off of ground, but do so in very controlled conditions that satisfy Underwriter's Laboratories that it won't be unsafe. Don't do this yourself, unless instructed to by this particular device's UL-approved labeling and instructions.




          If you don't want to hunt down a compatible smart switch, you need to replace the entire cable between light switch and light, with a /3 cable (black red white +ground). Then you make black always-hot, red switched-hot, and white neutral, hooking each as appropriate to the smart switch and up in the lamp.



          If it is simpler to run power from the service panel, then run a /2 cable from the service panel to the switch, feed the lamp from the switch, and cap off the supply hot+neutral going into the lamp. (or disconnect it from the lamp circuit in all respects).



          If conduit is used with individual wires (THHN), and hot and switched-hot are already colored wires, then you can simply add a similar (THHN) white wire to the pipe.



          Other than that, you cannot just run an individual wire. I gather you're a DC electronics guy? This is AC, and magnetic fields from AC have a serious kick. So currents must be equal in all cables or conduits so magnetic fields cancel each other out. Which means all related wires must be in the same cable.



          You are allowed to run an individual safety ground (i.e. retrofit), because current does not flow over safety ground (except during a fault).




          You can't run a tiny wire because we don't wire houses for ideal conditions, we wire them for fault conditions. Fault conditions call for a shorting smart switch that is flowing 50A through that 15A-rated wire. That 15A-rated wire will heat up at a predictable rate, and the breaker will thermal-trip before the wire heats up to a dangerous temperature. Now if your neutral wire is smaller, it will heat up faster.



          That's why you would need to size the entire circuit's breaker for that smallest wire. They don't allow <15A circuits in houses because the incremental cost of copper for a larger wire becomes pretty marginal at that size. That, and economies of scale make #14 effectively as cheap as smaller sizes.






          share|improve this answer

























          • So I would guess the solution, then, is to run a 14 gauge wire from the wifi light switch all the way back to the circuit breaker box (about 50') and attach it to the neutral buss.

            – Gyrobob
            May 20 at 1:15






          • 1





            @Gyrobob Harper will, I am sure, explain in full detail. But basically: 1 - You would likely find it shorter to run from the switch to the light fixture, as neutral is always present on the fixture (one side switched hot, one side neutral). 2 - You can't run a wire by itself - if you have individual wires in conduit, you can it together with the existing hot/switched hot wires; if you have cable then you need to replace the cable with a cable that has an extra wire for neutral.

            – manassehkatz
            May 20 at 1:21






          • 1





            @Gyrobob added.

            – Harper
            May 20 at 1:36











          • FYI, in Australia "hot" is called "active". Mentioning because we don't know where the OP lives.

            – Clonkex
            May 20 at 3:22






          • 1





            @R.. because dimmers are not variacs, nor are they resistive. They chop the AC waveform in some fashion. It takes some electronics to get from "(tiny)rheostat position" to "shape of chopped waveform", and also some power to get from "off" to "started up".

            – Harper
            May 20 at 5:38












          Your Answer








          StackExchange.ready(function()
          var channelOptions =
          tags: "".split(" "),
          id: "73"
          ;
          initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

          StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
          // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
          if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
          StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
          createEditor();
          );

          else
          createEditor();

          );

          function createEditor()
          StackExchange.prepareEditor(
          heartbeatType: 'answer',
          autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
          convertImagesToLinks: false,
          noModals: true,
          showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
          reputationToPostImages: null,
          bindNavPrevention: true,
          postfix: "",
          imageUploader:
          brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
          contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
          allowUrls: true
          ,
          noCode: true, onDemand: true,
          discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
          ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
          );



          );






          Gyrobob is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









          draft saved

          draft discarded


















          StackExchange.ready(
          function ()
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fdiy.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f165458%2fwifi-light-switch-needs-neutral-wire-why-and-can-that-wire-be-a-skinny-one%23new-answer', 'question_page');

          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown

























          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes








          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          3














          Because unlike a normal switch, the wifi switch needs power, so it needs a neutral wire to complete a circuit at the switch between the unswitched hot wire and neutral for that power.



          The neutral wire to the switch cannot be a light-gauge wire (at least if you are in an area subject to NEC codes; likely similar elsewhere in the world) because codes are based on what the circuit breaker protecting the circuit can supply when choosing wire size, so for 15A circuits the wire must be 14 Ga or larger, and for 20A circuits the wire must be 12Ga or larger. Smaller wires could overheat to the point of causing fires (without tripping the breaker) in the event of a fault condition, even if the normal current in them might be a matter of a few milliamperes.



          I regard wifi switches (and thermostats) with the baleful gaze that only a network admin can view such things askance with, but I gather that there are units arranged in such a manner that the actual switch/relay can go in the ceiling where the light fixture that the switch loop originates from is, and the switch loop wires can (without adding any) be repurposed to operate the remote switch in the wall, no longer actually running the power for the lights through there. This type of unit will probably be much easier to install than to attempt to add a neutral wire to a switch box without one.






          share|improve this answer

























          • I gave up. I'm just going to use another Ankuoo SW5101. It is a wifi-controlled plug-in outlet. I am already using two of them to control garage and workshop A/Cs. I'll just plug the Ankuoo SW5101 into a nearby wall outlet, and plug the line going to the fan I want to control into the Ankuoo SW5101. This bypasses the need for a fourth wire altogether. amazon.com/Ankuoo-Smart-Plug-Wi-Fi-White/dp/B00NAX2GVU/…

            – Gyrobob
            2 days ago















          3














          Because unlike a normal switch, the wifi switch needs power, so it needs a neutral wire to complete a circuit at the switch between the unswitched hot wire and neutral for that power.



          The neutral wire to the switch cannot be a light-gauge wire (at least if you are in an area subject to NEC codes; likely similar elsewhere in the world) because codes are based on what the circuit breaker protecting the circuit can supply when choosing wire size, so for 15A circuits the wire must be 14 Ga or larger, and for 20A circuits the wire must be 12Ga or larger. Smaller wires could overheat to the point of causing fires (without tripping the breaker) in the event of a fault condition, even if the normal current in them might be a matter of a few milliamperes.



          I regard wifi switches (and thermostats) with the baleful gaze that only a network admin can view such things askance with, but I gather that there are units arranged in such a manner that the actual switch/relay can go in the ceiling where the light fixture that the switch loop originates from is, and the switch loop wires can (without adding any) be repurposed to operate the remote switch in the wall, no longer actually running the power for the lights through there. This type of unit will probably be much easier to install than to attempt to add a neutral wire to a switch box without one.






          share|improve this answer

























          • I gave up. I'm just going to use another Ankuoo SW5101. It is a wifi-controlled plug-in outlet. I am already using two of them to control garage and workshop A/Cs. I'll just plug the Ankuoo SW5101 into a nearby wall outlet, and plug the line going to the fan I want to control into the Ankuoo SW5101. This bypasses the need for a fourth wire altogether. amazon.com/Ankuoo-Smart-Plug-Wi-Fi-White/dp/B00NAX2GVU/…

            – Gyrobob
            2 days ago













          3












          3








          3







          Because unlike a normal switch, the wifi switch needs power, so it needs a neutral wire to complete a circuit at the switch between the unswitched hot wire and neutral for that power.



          The neutral wire to the switch cannot be a light-gauge wire (at least if you are in an area subject to NEC codes; likely similar elsewhere in the world) because codes are based on what the circuit breaker protecting the circuit can supply when choosing wire size, so for 15A circuits the wire must be 14 Ga or larger, and for 20A circuits the wire must be 12Ga or larger. Smaller wires could overheat to the point of causing fires (without tripping the breaker) in the event of a fault condition, even if the normal current in them might be a matter of a few milliamperes.



          I regard wifi switches (and thermostats) with the baleful gaze that only a network admin can view such things askance with, but I gather that there are units arranged in such a manner that the actual switch/relay can go in the ceiling where the light fixture that the switch loop originates from is, and the switch loop wires can (without adding any) be repurposed to operate the remote switch in the wall, no longer actually running the power for the lights through there. This type of unit will probably be much easier to install than to attempt to add a neutral wire to a switch box without one.






          share|improve this answer















          Because unlike a normal switch, the wifi switch needs power, so it needs a neutral wire to complete a circuit at the switch between the unswitched hot wire and neutral for that power.



          The neutral wire to the switch cannot be a light-gauge wire (at least if you are in an area subject to NEC codes; likely similar elsewhere in the world) because codes are based on what the circuit breaker protecting the circuit can supply when choosing wire size, so for 15A circuits the wire must be 14 Ga or larger, and for 20A circuits the wire must be 12Ga or larger. Smaller wires could overheat to the point of causing fires (without tripping the breaker) in the event of a fault condition, even if the normal current in them might be a matter of a few milliamperes.



          I regard wifi switches (and thermostats) with the baleful gaze that only a network admin can view such things askance with, but I gather that there are units arranged in such a manner that the actual switch/relay can go in the ceiling where the light fixture that the switch loop originates from is, and the switch loop wires can (without adding any) be repurposed to operate the remote switch in the wall, no longer actually running the power for the lights through there. This type of unit will probably be much easier to install than to attempt to add a neutral wire to a switch box without one.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited May 19 at 21:02

























          answered May 19 at 20:56









          EcnerwalEcnerwal

          58.1k24398




          58.1k24398












          • I gave up. I'm just going to use another Ankuoo SW5101. It is a wifi-controlled plug-in outlet. I am already using two of them to control garage and workshop A/Cs. I'll just plug the Ankuoo SW5101 into a nearby wall outlet, and plug the line going to the fan I want to control into the Ankuoo SW5101. This bypasses the need for a fourth wire altogether. amazon.com/Ankuoo-Smart-Plug-Wi-Fi-White/dp/B00NAX2GVU/…

            – Gyrobob
            2 days ago

















          • I gave up. I'm just going to use another Ankuoo SW5101. It is a wifi-controlled plug-in outlet. I am already using two of them to control garage and workshop A/Cs. I'll just plug the Ankuoo SW5101 into a nearby wall outlet, and plug the line going to the fan I want to control into the Ankuoo SW5101. This bypasses the need for a fourth wire altogether. amazon.com/Ankuoo-Smart-Plug-Wi-Fi-White/dp/B00NAX2GVU/…

            – Gyrobob
            2 days ago
















          I gave up. I'm just going to use another Ankuoo SW5101. It is a wifi-controlled plug-in outlet. I am already using two of them to control garage and workshop A/Cs. I'll just plug the Ankuoo SW5101 into a nearby wall outlet, and plug the line going to the fan I want to control into the Ankuoo SW5101. This bypasses the need for a fourth wire altogether. amazon.com/Ankuoo-Smart-Plug-Wi-Fi-White/dp/B00NAX2GVU/…

          – Gyrobob
          2 days ago





          I gave up. I'm just going to use another Ankuoo SW5101. It is a wifi-controlled plug-in outlet. I am already using two of them to control garage and workshop A/Cs. I'll just plug the Ankuoo SW5101 into a nearby wall outlet, and plug the line going to the fan I want to control into the Ankuoo SW5101. This bypasses the need for a fourth wire altogether. amazon.com/Ankuoo-Smart-Plug-Wi-Fi-White/dp/B00NAX2GVU/…

          – Gyrobob
          2 days ago













          3














          That is correct. In the mains power world, we have 3 wires.



          EQUIPMENT SAFETY GROUND/EARTH which is not used for anything ever (except during a fault condition, of course)...



          HOT which is what humans consider the "source" of power... and



          NEUTRAL which is what humans consider the "power return". Obviously, it's AC, which makes "source" vs "return" rather arbitrary. This can be said: the system has equipotential bonding that, in normal conditions, places neutral quite close to safety earth. That's why it's called neutral.



          When you want to power something 24x7, it must be connected between HOT and NEUTRAL. If it is not, it won't have power. Since presumably you want the WiFi switch to respond to WiFi at all times, you need HOT and NEUTRAL to pull that off.



          You may be thinking of early dimmers. Those place themselves in series with the light bulb, so they connect between ALWAYS-HOT and SWITCHED-HOT. When the bulb is on, they create a small voltage drop and power themselves that way. When the bulb is off, they leak a small amount of current through the bulb, which works great with incandescents, but badly with most LEDs. It's possible to build a smart switch this way, in which case it does not need neutral. However it is difficult to design, and doesn't play well with most LEDs and CFLs. This can be solved by using 1 incandescent, or by putting a capacitor in parallel with the light bulbs so some power can leak through 24x7.



          A very small number of dimmers place themselves in series with the equipotential bonding that keeps neutral near ground. In short, they bootleg neutral off of ground, but do so in very controlled conditions that satisfy Underwriter's Laboratories that it won't be unsafe. Don't do this yourself, unless instructed to by this particular device's UL-approved labeling and instructions.




          If you don't want to hunt down a compatible smart switch, you need to replace the entire cable between light switch and light, with a /3 cable (black red white +ground). Then you make black always-hot, red switched-hot, and white neutral, hooking each as appropriate to the smart switch and up in the lamp.



          If it is simpler to run power from the service panel, then run a /2 cable from the service panel to the switch, feed the lamp from the switch, and cap off the supply hot+neutral going into the lamp. (or disconnect it from the lamp circuit in all respects).



          If conduit is used with individual wires (THHN), and hot and switched-hot are already colored wires, then you can simply add a similar (THHN) white wire to the pipe.



          Other than that, you cannot just run an individual wire. I gather you're a DC electronics guy? This is AC, and magnetic fields from AC have a serious kick. So currents must be equal in all cables or conduits so magnetic fields cancel each other out. Which means all related wires must be in the same cable.



          You are allowed to run an individual safety ground (i.e. retrofit), because current does not flow over safety ground (except during a fault).




          You can't run a tiny wire because we don't wire houses for ideal conditions, we wire them for fault conditions. Fault conditions call for a shorting smart switch that is flowing 50A through that 15A-rated wire. That 15A-rated wire will heat up at a predictable rate, and the breaker will thermal-trip before the wire heats up to a dangerous temperature. Now if your neutral wire is smaller, it will heat up faster.



          That's why you would need to size the entire circuit's breaker for that smallest wire. They don't allow <15A circuits in houses because the incremental cost of copper for a larger wire becomes pretty marginal at that size. That, and economies of scale make #14 effectively as cheap as smaller sizes.






          share|improve this answer

























          • So I would guess the solution, then, is to run a 14 gauge wire from the wifi light switch all the way back to the circuit breaker box (about 50') and attach it to the neutral buss.

            – Gyrobob
            May 20 at 1:15






          • 1





            @Gyrobob Harper will, I am sure, explain in full detail. But basically: 1 - You would likely find it shorter to run from the switch to the light fixture, as neutral is always present on the fixture (one side switched hot, one side neutral). 2 - You can't run a wire by itself - if you have individual wires in conduit, you can it together with the existing hot/switched hot wires; if you have cable then you need to replace the cable with a cable that has an extra wire for neutral.

            – manassehkatz
            May 20 at 1:21






          • 1





            @Gyrobob added.

            – Harper
            May 20 at 1:36











          • FYI, in Australia "hot" is called "active". Mentioning because we don't know where the OP lives.

            – Clonkex
            May 20 at 3:22






          • 1





            @R.. because dimmers are not variacs, nor are they resistive. They chop the AC waveform in some fashion. It takes some electronics to get from "(tiny)rheostat position" to "shape of chopped waveform", and also some power to get from "off" to "started up".

            – Harper
            May 20 at 5:38
















          3














          That is correct. In the mains power world, we have 3 wires.



          EQUIPMENT SAFETY GROUND/EARTH which is not used for anything ever (except during a fault condition, of course)...



          HOT which is what humans consider the "source" of power... and



          NEUTRAL which is what humans consider the "power return". Obviously, it's AC, which makes "source" vs "return" rather arbitrary. This can be said: the system has equipotential bonding that, in normal conditions, places neutral quite close to safety earth. That's why it's called neutral.



          When you want to power something 24x7, it must be connected between HOT and NEUTRAL. If it is not, it won't have power. Since presumably you want the WiFi switch to respond to WiFi at all times, you need HOT and NEUTRAL to pull that off.



          You may be thinking of early dimmers. Those place themselves in series with the light bulb, so they connect between ALWAYS-HOT and SWITCHED-HOT. When the bulb is on, they create a small voltage drop and power themselves that way. When the bulb is off, they leak a small amount of current through the bulb, which works great with incandescents, but badly with most LEDs. It's possible to build a smart switch this way, in which case it does not need neutral. However it is difficult to design, and doesn't play well with most LEDs and CFLs. This can be solved by using 1 incandescent, or by putting a capacitor in parallel with the light bulbs so some power can leak through 24x7.



          A very small number of dimmers place themselves in series with the equipotential bonding that keeps neutral near ground. In short, they bootleg neutral off of ground, but do so in very controlled conditions that satisfy Underwriter's Laboratories that it won't be unsafe. Don't do this yourself, unless instructed to by this particular device's UL-approved labeling and instructions.




          If you don't want to hunt down a compatible smart switch, you need to replace the entire cable between light switch and light, with a /3 cable (black red white +ground). Then you make black always-hot, red switched-hot, and white neutral, hooking each as appropriate to the smart switch and up in the lamp.



          If it is simpler to run power from the service panel, then run a /2 cable from the service panel to the switch, feed the lamp from the switch, and cap off the supply hot+neutral going into the lamp. (or disconnect it from the lamp circuit in all respects).



          If conduit is used with individual wires (THHN), and hot and switched-hot are already colored wires, then you can simply add a similar (THHN) white wire to the pipe.



          Other than that, you cannot just run an individual wire. I gather you're a DC electronics guy? This is AC, and magnetic fields from AC have a serious kick. So currents must be equal in all cables or conduits so magnetic fields cancel each other out. Which means all related wires must be in the same cable.



          You are allowed to run an individual safety ground (i.e. retrofit), because current does not flow over safety ground (except during a fault).




          You can't run a tiny wire because we don't wire houses for ideal conditions, we wire them for fault conditions. Fault conditions call for a shorting smart switch that is flowing 50A through that 15A-rated wire. That 15A-rated wire will heat up at a predictable rate, and the breaker will thermal-trip before the wire heats up to a dangerous temperature. Now if your neutral wire is smaller, it will heat up faster.



          That's why you would need to size the entire circuit's breaker for that smallest wire. They don't allow <15A circuits in houses because the incremental cost of copper for a larger wire becomes pretty marginal at that size. That, and economies of scale make #14 effectively as cheap as smaller sizes.






          share|improve this answer

























          • So I would guess the solution, then, is to run a 14 gauge wire from the wifi light switch all the way back to the circuit breaker box (about 50') and attach it to the neutral buss.

            – Gyrobob
            May 20 at 1:15






          • 1





            @Gyrobob Harper will, I am sure, explain in full detail. But basically: 1 - You would likely find it shorter to run from the switch to the light fixture, as neutral is always present on the fixture (one side switched hot, one side neutral). 2 - You can't run a wire by itself - if you have individual wires in conduit, you can it together with the existing hot/switched hot wires; if you have cable then you need to replace the cable with a cable that has an extra wire for neutral.

            – manassehkatz
            May 20 at 1:21






          • 1





            @Gyrobob added.

            – Harper
            May 20 at 1:36











          • FYI, in Australia "hot" is called "active". Mentioning because we don't know where the OP lives.

            – Clonkex
            May 20 at 3:22






          • 1





            @R.. because dimmers are not variacs, nor are they resistive. They chop the AC waveform in some fashion. It takes some electronics to get from "(tiny)rheostat position" to "shape of chopped waveform", and also some power to get from "off" to "started up".

            – Harper
            May 20 at 5:38














          3












          3








          3







          That is correct. In the mains power world, we have 3 wires.



          EQUIPMENT SAFETY GROUND/EARTH which is not used for anything ever (except during a fault condition, of course)...



          HOT which is what humans consider the "source" of power... and



          NEUTRAL which is what humans consider the "power return". Obviously, it's AC, which makes "source" vs "return" rather arbitrary. This can be said: the system has equipotential bonding that, in normal conditions, places neutral quite close to safety earth. That's why it's called neutral.



          When you want to power something 24x7, it must be connected between HOT and NEUTRAL. If it is not, it won't have power. Since presumably you want the WiFi switch to respond to WiFi at all times, you need HOT and NEUTRAL to pull that off.



          You may be thinking of early dimmers. Those place themselves in series with the light bulb, so they connect between ALWAYS-HOT and SWITCHED-HOT. When the bulb is on, they create a small voltage drop and power themselves that way. When the bulb is off, they leak a small amount of current through the bulb, which works great with incandescents, but badly with most LEDs. It's possible to build a smart switch this way, in which case it does not need neutral. However it is difficult to design, and doesn't play well with most LEDs and CFLs. This can be solved by using 1 incandescent, or by putting a capacitor in parallel with the light bulbs so some power can leak through 24x7.



          A very small number of dimmers place themselves in series with the equipotential bonding that keeps neutral near ground. In short, they bootleg neutral off of ground, but do so in very controlled conditions that satisfy Underwriter's Laboratories that it won't be unsafe. Don't do this yourself, unless instructed to by this particular device's UL-approved labeling and instructions.




          If you don't want to hunt down a compatible smart switch, you need to replace the entire cable between light switch and light, with a /3 cable (black red white +ground). Then you make black always-hot, red switched-hot, and white neutral, hooking each as appropriate to the smart switch and up in the lamp.



          If it is simpler to run power from the service panel, then run a /2 cable from the service panel to the switch, feed the lamp from the switch, and cap off the supply hot+neutral going into the lamp. (or disconnect it from the lamp circuit in all respects).



          If conduit is used with individual wires (THHN), and hot and switched-hot are already colored wires, then you can simply add a similar (THHN) white wire to the pipe.



          Other than that, you cannot just run an individual wire. I gather you're a DC electronics guy? This is AC, and magnetic fields from AC have a serious kick. So currents must be equal in all cables or conduits so magnetic fields cancel each other out. Which means all related wires must be in the same cable.



          You are allowed to run an individual safety ground (i.e. retrofit), because current does not flow over safety ground (except during a fault).




          You can't run a tiny wire because we don't wire houses for ideal conditions, we wire them for fault conditions. Fault conditions call for a shorting smart switch that is flowing 50A through that 15A-rated wire. That 15A-rated wire will heat up at a predictable rate, and the breaker will thermal-trip before the wire heats up to a dangerous temperature. Now if your neutral wire is smaller, it will heat up faster.



          That's why you would need to size the entire circuit's breaker for that smallest wire. They don't allow <15A circuits in houses because the incremental cost of copper for a larger wire becomes pretty marginal at that size. That, and economies of scale make #14 effectively as cheap as smaller sizes.






          share|improve this answer















          That is correct. In the mains power world, we have 3 wires.



          EQUIPMENT SAFETY GROUND/EARTH which is not used for anything ever (except during a fault condition, of course)...



          HOT which is what humans consider the "source" of power... and



          NEUTRAL which is what humans consider the "power return". Obviously, it's AC, which makes "source" vs "return" rather arbitrary. This can be said: the system has equipotential bonding that, in normal conditions, places neutral quite close to safety earth. That's why it's called neutral.



          When you want to power something 24x7, it must be connected between HOT and NEUTRAL. If it is not, it won't have power. Since presumably you want the WiFi switch to respond to WiFi at all times, you need HOT and NEUTRAL to pull that off.



          You may be thinking of early dimmers. Those place themselves in series with the light bulb, so they connect between ALWAYS-HOT and SWITCHED-HOT. When the bulb is on, they create a small voltage drop and power themselves that way. When the bulb is off, they leak a small amount of current through the bulb, which works great with incandescents, but badly with most LEDs. It's possible to build a smart switch this way, in which case it does not need neutral. However it is difficult to design, and doesn't play well with most LEDs and CFLs. This can be solved by using 1 incandescent, or by putting a capacitor in parallel with the light bulbs so some power can leak through 24x7.



          A very small number of dimmers place themselves in series with the equipotential bonding that keeps neutral near ground. In short, they bootleg neutral off of ground, but do so in very controlled conditions that satisfy Underwriter's Laboratories that it won't be unsafe. Don't do this yourself, unless instructed to by this particular device's UL-approved labeling and instructions.




          If you don't want to hunt down a compatible smart switch, you need to replace the entire cable between light switch and light, with a /3 cable (black red white +ground). Then you make black always-hot, red switched-hot, and white neutral, hooking each as appropriate to the smart switch and up in the lamp.



          If it is simpler to run power from the service panel, then run a /2 cable from the service panel to the switch, feed the lamp from the switch, and cap off the supply hot+neutral going into the lamp. (or disconnect it from the lamp circuit in all respects).



          If conduit is used with individual wires (THHN), and hot and switched-hot are already colored wires, then you can simply add a similar (THHN) white wire to the pipe.



          Other than that, you cannot just run an individual wire. I gather you're a DC electronics guy? This is AC, and magnetic fields from AC have a serious kick. So currents must be equal in all cables or conduits so magnetic fields cancel each other out. Which means all related wires must be in the same cable.



          You are allowed to run an individual safety ground (i.e. retrofit), because current does not flow over safety ground (except during a fault).




          You can't run a tiny wire because we don't wire houses for ideal conditions, we wire them for fault conditions. Fault conditions call for a shorting smart switch that is flowing 50A through that 15A-rated wire. That 15A-rated wire will heat up at a predictable rate, and the breaker will thermal-trip before the wire heats up to a dangerous temperature. Now if your neutral wire is smaller, it will heat up faster.



          That's why you would need to size the entire circuit's breaker for that smallest wire. They don't allow <15A circuits in houses because the incremental cost of copper for a larger wire becomes pretty marginal at that size. That, and economies of scale make #14 effectively as cheap as smaller sizes.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited May 21 at 2:14

























          answered May 20 at 0:52









          HarperHarper

          79.8k554161




          79.8k554161












          • So I would guess the solution, then, is to run a 14 gauge wire from the wifi light switch all the way back to the circuit breaker box (about 50') and attach it to the neutral buss.

            – Gyrobob
            May 20 at 1:15






          • 1





            @Gyrobob Harper will, I am sure, explain in full detail. But basically: 1 - You would likely find it shorter to run from the switch to the light fixture, as neutral is always present on the fixture (one side switched hot, one side neutral). 2 - You can't run a wire by itself - if you have individual wires in conduit, you can it together with the existing hot/switched hot wires; if you have cable then you need to replace the cable with a cable that has an extra wire for neutral.

            – manassehkatz
            May 20 at 1:21






          • 1





            @Gyrobob added.

            – Harper
            May 20 at 1:36











          • FYI, in Australia "hot" is called "active". Mentioning because we don't know where the OP lives.

            – Clonkex
            May 20 at 3:22






          • 1





            @R.. because dimmers are not variacs, nor are they resistive. They chop the AC waveform in some fashion. It takes some electronics to get from "(tiny)rheostat position" to "shape of chopped waveform", and also some power to get from "off" to "started up".

            – Harper
            May 20 at 5:38


















          • So I would guess the solution, then, is to run a 14 gauge wire from the wifi light switch all the way back to the circuit breaker box (about 50') and attach it to the neutral buss.

            – Gyrobob
            May 20 at 1:15






          • 1





            @Gyrobob Harper will, I am sure, explain in full detail. But basically: 1 - You would likely find it shorter to run from the switch to the light fixture, as neutral is always present on the fixture (one side switched hot, one side neutral). 2 - You can't run a wire by itself - if you have individual wires in conduit, you can it together with the existing hot/switched hot wires; if you have cable then you need to replace the cable with a cable that has an extra wire for neutral.

            – manassehkatz
            May 20 at 1:21






          • 1





            @Gyrobob added.

            – Harper
            May 20 at 1:36











          • FYI, in Australia "hot" is called "active". Mentioning because we don't know where the OP lives.

            – Clonkex
            May 20 at 3:22






          • 1





            @R.. because dimmers are not variacs, nor are they resistive. They chop the AC waveform in some fashion. It takes some electronics to get from "(tiny)rheostat position" to "shape of chopped waveform", and also some power to get from "off" to "started up".

            – Harper
            May 20 at 5:38

















          So I would guess the solution, then, is to run a 14 gauge wire from the wifi light switch all the way back to the circuit breaker box (about 50') and attach it to the neutral buss.

          – Gyrobob
          May 20 at 1:15





          So I would guess the solution, then, is to run a 14 gauge wire from the wifi light switch all the way back to the circuit breaker box (about 50') and attach it to the neutral buss.

          – Gyrobob
          May 20 at 1:15




          1




          1





          @Gyrobob Harper will, I am sure, explain in full detail. But basically: 1 - You would likely find it shorter to run from the switch to the light fixture, as neutral is always present on the fixture (one side switched hot, one side neutral). 2 - You can't run a wire by itself - if you have individual wires in conduit, you can it together with the existing hot/switched hot wires; if you have cable then you need to replace the cable with a cable that has an extra wire for neutral.

          – manassehkatz
          May 20 at 1:21





          @Gyrobob Harper will, I am sure, explain in full detail. But basically: 1 - You would likely find it shorter to run from the switch to the light fixture, as neutral is always present on the fixture (one side switched hot, one side neutral). 2 - You can't run a wire by itself - if you have individual wires in conduit, you can it together with the existing hot/switched hot wires; if you have cable then you need to replace the cable with a cable that has an extra wire for neutral.

          – manassehkatz
          May 20 at 1:21




          1




          1





          @Gyrobob added.

          – Harper
          May 20 at 1:36





          @Gyrobob added.

          – Harper
          May 20 at 1:36













          FYI, in Australia "hot" is called "active". Mentioning because we don't know where the OP lives.

          – Clonkex
          May 20 at 3:22





          FYI, in Australia "hot" is called "active". Mentioning because we don't know where the OP lives.

          – Clonkex
          May 20 at 3:22




          1




          1





          @R.. because dimmers are not variacs, nor are they resistive. They chop the AC waveform in some fashion. It takes some electronics to get from "(tiny)rheostat position" to "shape of chopped waveform", and also some power to get from "off" to "started up".

          – Harper
          May 20 at 5:38






          @R.. because dimmers are not variacs, nor are they resistive. They chop the AC waveform in some fashion. It takes some electronics to get from "(tiny)rheostat position" to "shape of chopped waveform", and also some power to get from "off" to "started up".

          – Harper
          May 20 at 5:38











          Gyrobob is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.









          draft saved

          draft discarded


















          Gyrobob is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












          Gyrobob is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.











          Gyrobob is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.














          Thanks for contributing an answer to Home Improvement Stack Exchange!


          • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

          But avoid


          • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

          • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

          To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




          draft saved


          draft discarded














          StackExchange.ready(
          function ()
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fdiy.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f165458%2fwifi-light-switch-needs-neutral-wire-why-and-can-that-wire-be-a-skinny-one%23new-answer', 'question_page');

          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown





















































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown

































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown







          Popular posts from this blog

          Category:9 (number) SubcategoriesMedia in category "9 (number)"Navigation menuUpload mediaGND ID: 4485639-8Library of Congress authority ID: sh85091979ReasonatorScholiaStatistics

          Circuit construction for execution of conditional statements using least significant bitHow are two different registers being used as “control”?How exactly is the stated composite state of the two registers being produced using the $R_zz$ controlled rotations?Efficiently performing controlled rotations in HHLWould this quantum algorithm implementation work?How to prepare a superposed states of odd integers from $1$ to $sqrtN$?Why is this implementation of the order finding algorithm not working?Circuit construction for Hamiltonian simulationHow can I invert the least significant bit of a certain term of a superposed state?Implementing an oracleImplementing a controlled sum operation

          Magento 2 “No Payment Methods” in Admin New OrderHow to integrate Paypal Express Checkout with the Magento APIMagento 1.5 - Sales > Order > edit order and shipping methods disappearAuto Invoice Check/Money Order Payment methodAdd more simple payment methods?Shipping methods not showingWhat should I do to change payment methods if changing the configuration has no effects?1.9 - No Payment Methods showing upMy Payment Methods not Showing for downloadable/virtual product when checkout?Magento2 API to access internal payment methodHow to call an existing payment methods in the registration form?