Understanding the reasoning of the woman who agreed with King Solomon to “cut the baby in half”How would the 'split the baby in half' situation be resolved according to halacha?Could one today be blessed with the wisdom of Solomon and love of David?How is the sex of a baby born with unclear genitalia determined?Could stones cut with a high powered laser be used to build the Beit Hamikdash?Does this quotation have its roots in the words of King Solomon?How would the 'split the baby in half' situation be resolved according to halacha?How exactly did Solomon determine the child's mother?Do the Rabbanim know more than King Solomon about the reality of post-death?

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Understanding the reasoning of the woman who agreed with King Solomon to “cut the baby in half”


How would the 'split the baby in half' situation be resolved according to halacha?Could one today be blessed with the wisdom of Solomon and love of David?How is the sex of a baby born with unclear genitalia determined?Could stones cut with a high powered laser be used to build the Beit Hamikdash?Does this quotation have its roots in the words of King Solomon?How would the 'split the baby in half' situation be resolved according to halacha?How exactly did Solomon determine the child's mother?Do the Rabbanim know more than King Solomon about the reality of post-death?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








16















There's a famous story in I Kings 3:16-28 about Shlomo Hamelech.

Two women who had just given birth around the same time appeared before him; one baby had died and one was alive and the women were arguing about who's baby was the live one.



Shlomo proposed to cut the baby in half and give half to each woman, to which they responded:

(I Kings 3:26)




Woman A:



וַתֹּ֣אמֶר ׀ בִּ֣י אֲדֹנִ֗י תְּנוּ־לָהּ֙ אֶת־הַיָּל֣וּד הַחַ֔י וְהָמֵ֖ת אַל־תְּמִיתֻ֑הוּ

“Please, my lord,” she cried, “give her the live child; only don’t kill it!”



Woman B:



וְזֹ֣את אֹמֶ֗רֶת גַּם־לִ֥י גַם־לָ֛ךְ לֹ֥א יִהְיֶ֖ה גְּזֹֽרוּ

The other insisted, “It shall be neither yours nor mine; cut it in two!”




The story concludes with Shlomo revealing that Woman A was proven to be the mother since she'd rather have her child taken away and live than die.



Question



Was Woman B a dimwit? Did she not know that Shlomo's suggestion would result in a dead child?




related: cut baby in half in halacha










share|improve this question



















  • 3





    She probably did but didn’t care. I don’t think that’s such a hard pill to swallow given the historical-social context.

    – Oliver
    Jun 18 at 1:37






  • 1





    By the way -- the story starts with Woman 1 telling a long sob story about a baby switch, and Woman 2 with a short denial. Which of these is the true mother (i.e. Woman A)? Radak says "Woman 1, her story rings true [and occupies all this space]." Malbim the lie-spotter says no, Woman 2. She's the one who puts mine is alive before yours is dead.

    – Shalom
    Jun 18 at 8:21

















16















There's a famous story in I Kings 3:16-28 about Shlomo Hamelech.

Two women who had just given birth around the same time appeared before him; one baby had died and one was alive and the women were arguing about who's baby was the live one.



Shlomo proposed to cut the baby in half and give half to each woman, to which they responded:

(I Kings 3:26)




Woman A:



וַתֹּ֣אמֶר ׀ בִּ֣י אֲדֹנִ֗י תְּנוּ־לָהּ֙ אֶת־הַיָּל֣וּד הַחַ֔י וְהָמֵ֖ת אַל־תְּמִיתֻ֑הוּ

“Please, my lord,” she cried, “give her the live child; only don’t kill it!”



Woman B:



וְזֹ֣את אֹמֶ֗רֶת גַּם־לִ֥י גַם־לָ֛ךְ לֹ֥א יִהְיֶ֖ה גְּזֹֽרוּ

The other insisted, “It shall be neither yours nor mine; cut it in two!”




The story concludes with Shlomo revealing that Woman A was proven to be the mother since she'd rather have her child taken away and live than die.



Question



Was Woman B a dimwit? Did she not know that Shlomo's suggestion would result in a dead child?




related: cut baby in half in halacha










share|improve this question



















  • 3





    She probably did but didn’t care. I don’t think that’s such a hard pill to swallow given the historical-social context.

    – Oliver
    Jun 18 at 1:37






  • 1





    By the way -- the story starts with Woman 1 telling a long sob story about a baby switch, and Woman 2 with a short denial. Which of these is the true mother (i.e. Woman A)? Radak says "Woman 1, her story rings true [and occupies all this space]." Malbim the lie-spotter says no, Woman 2. She's the one who puts mine is alive before yours is dead.

    – Shalom
    Jun 18 at 8:21













16












16








16








There's a famous story in I Kings 3:16-28 about Shlomo Hamelech.

Two women who had just given birth around the same time appeared before him; one baby had died and one was alive and the women were arguing about who's baby was the live one.



Shlomo proposed to cut the baby in half and give half to each woman, to which they responded:

(I Kings 3:26)




Woman A:



וַתֹּ֣אמֶר ׀ בִּ֣י אֲדֹנִ֗י תְּנוּ־לָהּ֙ אֶת־הַיָּל֣וּד הַחַ֔י וְהָמֵ֖ת אַל־תְּמִיתֻ֑הוּ

“Please, my lord,” she cried, “give her the live child; only don’t kill it!”



Woman B:



וְזֹ֣את אֹמֶ֗רֶת גַּם־לִ֥י גַם־לָ֛ךְ לֹ֥א יִהְיֶ֖ה גְּזֹֽרוּ

The other insisted, “It shall be neither yours nor mine; cut it in two!”




The story concludes with Shlomo revealing that Woman A was proven to be the mother since she'd rather have her child taken away and live than die.



Question



Was Woman B a dimwit? Did she not know that Shlomo's suggestion would result in a dead child?




related: cut baby in half in halacha










share|improve this question
















There's a famous story in I Kings 3:16-28 about Shlomo Hamelech.

Two women who had just given birth around the same time appeared before him; one baby had died and one was alive and the women were arguing about who's baby was the live one.



Shlomo proposed to cut the baby in half and give half to each woman, to which they responded:

(I Kings 3:26)




Woman A:



וַתֹּ֣אמֶר ׀ בִּ֣י אֲדֹנִ֗י תְּנוּ־לָהּ֙ אֶת־הַיָּל֣וּד הַחַ֔י וְהָמֵ֖ת אַל־תְּמִיתֻ֑הוּ

“Please, my lord,” she cried, “give her the live child; only don’t kill it!”



Woman B:



וְזֹ֣את אֹמֶ֗רֶת גַּם־לִ֥י גַם־לָ֛ךְ לֹ֥א יִהְיֶ֖ה גְּזֹֽרוּ

The other insisted, “It shall be neither yours nor mine; cut it in two!”




The story concludes with Shlomo revealing that Woman A was proven to be the mother since she'd rather have her child taken away and live than die.



Question



Was Woman B a dimwit? Did she not know that Shlomo's suggestion would result in a dead child?




related: cut baby in half in halacha







melachim-kings-book-of baby-infant king-solomon






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edited Jun 19 at 8:46







alicht

















asked Jun 18 at 0:12









alichtalicht

5,1752 gold badges9 silver badges38 bronze badges




5,1752 gold badges9 silver badges38 bronze badges







  • 3





    She probably did but didn’t care. I don’t think that’s such a hard pill to swallow given the historical-social context.

    – Oliver
    Jun 18 at 1:37






  • 1





    By the way -- the story starts with Woman 1 telling a long sob story about a baby switch, and Woman 2 with a short denial. Which of these is the true mother (i.e. Woman A)? Radak says "Woman 1, her story rings true [and occupies all this space]." Malbim the lie-spotter says no, Woman 2. She's the one who puts mine is alive before yours is dead.

    – Shalom
    Jun 18 at 8:21












  • 3





    She probably did but didn’t care. I don’t think that’s such a hard pill to swallow given the historical-social context.

    – Oliver
    Jun 18 at 1:37






  • 1





    By the way -- the story starts with Woman 1 telling a long sob story about a baby switch, and Woman 2 with a short denial. Which of these is the true mother (i.e. Woman A)? Radak says "Woman 1, her story rings true [and occupies all this space]." Malbim the lie-spotter says no, Woman 2. She's the one who puts mine is alive before yours is dead.

    – Shalom
    Jun 18 at 8:21







3




3





She probably did but didn’t care. I don’t think that’s such a hard pill to swallow given the historical-social context.

– Oliver
Jun 18 at 1:37





She probably did but didn’t care. I don’t think that’s such a hard pill to swallow given the historical-social context.

– Oliver
Jun 18 at 1:37




1




1





By the way -- the story starts with Woman 1 telling a long sob story about a baby switch, and Woman 2 with a short denial. Which of these is the true mother (i.e. Woman A)? Radak says "Woman 1, her story rings true [and occupies all this space]." Malbim the lie-spotter says no, Woman 2. She's the one who puts mine is alive before yours is dead.

– Shalom
Jun 18 at 8:21





By the way -- the story starts with Woman 1 telling a long sob story about a baby switch, and Woman 2 with a short denial. Which of these is the true mother (i.e. Woman A)? Radak says "Woman 1, her story rings true [and occupies all this space]." Malbim the lie-spotter says no, Woman 2. She's the one who puts mine is alive before yours is dead.

– Shalom
Jun 18 at 8:21










4 Answers
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active

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29














I generally understood the story based on the Malbim: obviously, everyone involved (including "Woman B," as you call her) knew that King Solomon's suggestion would result in the death of the child. After all, the second woman says גם לי גם לך לא יהיה - neither of us would end up with a child.



Instead, the question was what do each of these woman really want out of this trial? Woman A (the child's mother) is obviously most interested in keeping her baby, but King Solomon recognized that the other woman was motivated by a desire to even the scales: she was upset by the fact that her child had died while her companion's child was alive. As they say in English, "misery loves company," or in Hebrew, צרת רבים חצי נחמה. The woman who was not the baby's mother wouldn't actually have said out loud that she wanted her friend's baby to die, and so Solomon had devised this "test" in order to get her to express what she was really after.



Here's the commentary of the Malbim to I Kings 3:22, who shows that the wording of each of the two women tipped off King Solomon to the solution:




ותאמר האשה האחרת לא כי בני החי ובנך המת וזאת אומרת לא כי בנך המת ובני החי, ספר הכתוב כי בדברם, אמרה הנתבעת בלשון בני החי ובנך המת
והתובעת אמרה בהפך בנך המת ובני החי, וכלל בלשון שהאדם יקדים תמיד מה
שהוא העקר ויאחר את הטפל ולפ''ז הסברא נותנת שהאשה שדקדקה להקדים בלשונה
בני החי קודם עקר מגמתה שיהיה החי בנה, והמקדמת בלשונה בנך המת עקר מגמתה שיהיה המת בן חברתה, לא שיהיה החי בנה, ומזה כבר היה יכול
להבין ולהכריע מי אמו



"The other woman said, 'no rather it is my son who is alive and your
son who is dead,' and this one says 'no rather it is your son who is
dead and my son who is alive
."



Scripture tells how regarding their words, by one claimant using the
language of "my son is alive and your son is dead," and the
other claimant saying [in] the reverse [order], "your son is dead
and my son is alive
." There is a rule in man's language that he
will always give precedent to what is primary and make later what is
secondary, and therefore it is reasonable that the woman who was
careful to give precedence in her words to my son is alive-her
main objective is that her son be alive, and the [other woman] who
gave precedence to your son is dead- her main objective was to
say that the dead son was her companion's, but not that her son was
the live one. And from this [Solomon] was already able to understand
and discern who is his mother




Thus, once it was clear to Solomon that the second woman was more interested in making sure that her fellow was the one subject to having a dead child, he was able to exploit that fact by showing that she would be fine with such a verdict - even at the expense of a child's life.






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  • 2





    +1 Made an account just to upvote this. Like many I've known about this story since I was a child, but I never knew why the "false mother" didn't care if the baby was cut in half. It's a really critical piece that is left out of most homages to it. Very insightful read.

    – Wipqozn
    Jun 18 at 14:31











  • @הנער הזה what Wipqozn said- shkoyach gadol!

    – alicht
    Jun 18 at 15:52











  • Mélanie Klein spoke about the concept of envy

    – kouty
    Jun 18 at 20:56






  • 3





    "There is a rule in man's language that he will always give precedent to what is primary and make later what is secondary" - This is not a serviceable rule, and I have heard others put great weight on putting the strongest or most important piece last.

    – Joshua
    Jun 19 at 1:10











  • I always imagined that the real mother showed genuine emotion, and would have rather give up her child and have it live than submit to Solomon's test. The other woman seems to be cold and calculating and uncaring about the fate of the baby. I don't see the need for syntactic analysis to determine who was the real mother, or for inspiration for the test in the first place. It changes Solomon's wisdom from emotional and intuitive to logical and analytical, which decreases him in my eyes. If he is just using words instead of motivations, he doesn't care about the women or the baby either!

    – CJ Dennis
    Jun 20 at 4:15


















12














The Meiri asks and answers this question in Yevamos 17b:




והוא הענין שנאמר בהגדה על אותן שתים נשים זונות שבאו לדין לפני שלמה שהרי כשצוה שלמה לגזור את הילד החי והשיבה האחת תנו לה את הילוד החי והמת אל תמיתוהו היה ראוי לאחרת להשיב את שלי היא נותנת לי וכשאמרה גם לי גם לך גו' סכלות היה ופתיות שלה ומה היה מכיר שלמה בדבר זה ומה תועלת היה רואה לה בדבריה אלא ששתי נשים אלו כלה וחמותה היו ומתו בעליהן בלא בנים אחרים אלא אלו השנים ומת ילד זה של הכלה וכל שמת תוך שלשים נדון כנפל והרי היא זקוקה ליבום וכשמצאה עצמה צריכה להמתין לאותו ולד של חמותה ותתעגן י"ג שנים החליפה חי במת כדי לומר שבנה הוא ותפטר משני צדדין שהרי תאמר שיש לה בן ואין לה יבם וכשאמר שלמה גזרו את הילד החי שמחה מפני שנוח היה לה בכך כדי לינשא בהיתר והרגיש שלמה בענין זה והשאירו לחמותה



The two women were mother-in-law and daughter-in-law and their husbands had died before having any other children other than these two. The daughter-in-law's son had died within 30 days of being born, which would be considered a Nefel and would not exempt her from Yibum. Therefore the daughter-in-law would have to wait until the mother-in-law's child (her husband's new barely contemporary brother) to reach 13 years old in order to do Yibum or Chalitza, and she would remain an Agunah until then, unable to get married. Instead, she switched her child with her mother-in-law's child, this way she could be exempt from Yibum by having a surviving child (and no Yavam). When Shlomo said to cut the baby in half, the daughter-in-law approved of this because it would still allow her to get remarried as there would be no Yavam.




Here is a diagram which may help clarify:
Family Tree






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  • Please pardon my ignorance (I'm new here), but what is "Yevamos?"

    – Rusty Lemur
    Jun 18 at 19:31






  • 2





    @RustyLemur Yevamos is the name of a book of the Talmud which explains the laws of Yibum. Yibum is called "levirate marriage". It is a Torah Law that if a man dies childless then his wife must marry the deceased's brother, so the child born of the new marriage will count as a survivor spiritually for the dead brother. See Deutoronomy 25:5-10.

    – David Kenner
    Jun 18 at 19:54











  • en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levirate_marriage

    – Silver
    Jun 18 at 20:10






  • 3





    What is the grounds on which it claims that these two women were mother-in-law and daughter-in-law?

    – Rusty Lemur
    Jun 18 at 21:10






  • 1





    @RustyLemur there is no textual source for this, the only grounds for this claim is as a proposal to explain why the second women would prefer for the baby to be killed instead of taking the baby she had just claimed was her child.

    – simyou
    Jun 19 at 10:13


















6














She was calling the king's bluff.



My understanding of the story goes against the universal one, but fits with the text and answers your question and a lot of others --



The first woman to speak (the one holding the live child) was trying to be demonstrative of how motherly she was, expecting to be allowed to keep the child, even though she was saying that she would let the other one take the baby.



The second women felt trapped. She can't say "yes, I will take the baby", because the first one will be allowed to keep the baby for being more "motherly". Obviously she can't now say, "no, you keep the baby". So she passes the play back to Shlomo. He never meant to kill the child, and neither did she.



גם לי גם לך לא יהיה - I will not take the child, and neither will you - I will not play along with your fake offer for me to take the child, and I do not accept that you should be given the child for it.



Shlomo actually gave the baby to this woman, and not to the one who was willing to let the other take the baby. The first was a show off, the second was authentic.



There is a vague pronoun reference when the king says, "Give her the child". Though it is always understood to be referring to the first one, grammatically it should refer to the last one who spoke, i.e. the one who was not willing to give up her child to the other.



This obviously quite shocked all who were present, who "stood in awe of the king; for they saw that he possessed divine wisdom to execute justice."






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  • How does this answer deal with verse 26? "But the woman whose son was the live one pleaded with the king, for she was overcome with compassion for her son."

    – Rusty Lemur
    Jun 18 at 18:26











  • @RustyLemur at that point in the story we still don't know who was telling the truth, so I think it should be read "the woman who was holding the live child." Another reason I like this reading is that we know at the end of the story that the baby was, in fact, switched, because the one holding the baby does not get to keep it in the end. In the classic reading of the story we never find out if this story was true or not.

    – simyou
    Jun 18 at 18:49











  • Does the original language allow for the interpretation to be "But the woman who was holding the live one"? Or is it coming from the vantage point that the author knows who the real mother was?

    – Rusty Lemur
    Jun 18 at 19:28











  • The literal translation of the Hebrew "הָאִשָּׁה֩ אֲשֶׁר־בְּנָ֨הּ הַחַ֜י" is "the woman, whose son was the live one". It is more natural to read it, as it is universally read, that it means the real mother of the live child, but I believe it can also be read as I suggested, "the woman, whose baby was the live one," I admit it is a slight stretch, but I believe it is valid.

    – simyou
    Jun 19 at 10:05











  • er, how does calling the kings bluff show she's the mother? Sorry, this doesn't seem to even start working.

    – Orangesandlemons
    Jun 19 at 11:40


















2














The reason should be understood as the following:



Being creatures of dual, competing interests, there exists in some persons, such as myself, the ability for or a manifestation of a vindictive spirit, or attitude, under certain circumstances. It is related to envy/covetousness, and jealously (in the negative sense).



In the case of envy, when we observe something that is not ours that we want, we wish we could have it. If we can't, we may even wish the other did not have it, in order to relieve ourselves of having to even compare with the fact that they have something we don't have, but want. Under severe stain, it is the same spirit as "If I can't have it, nobody can!" It's just plain wrong, misinformed, and ought to be weeded out of us by either a) good parenting, or b) ourselves when recognized.



For jealously, we either
a) have something that we hold dear, or
b) we believe that someone has something that "should be ours" through a rationalization of having been wronged, and therefore "deserving" of the object that we believe ought to be ours. This is closely related to envy. However in this state of mind we cannot recognize it as envy, because we "believe" that the object "should" be ours.



The woman who agreed to cut the baby in half was in these states. She was the very unfortunate recipient of having lost a child, coupled with not having the self-awareness (which often comes through good parenting or divine gift, but which may also come secondary to these by individual recognition) to see or understand that her state was a terrible one, bitter and terrible enough to agree to the destruction of another life out of co-morbid envy and jealousy gone wild. Solomon had the wisdom to know that such an individual should not be either "the" parent, or a parent at all.



I have been fortunate enough to see the existence of these states in myself, only perhaps not as closely tied to the life and death of another individual, the honor for which ought to go to my parents.






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    4 Answers
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    4 Answers
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    I generally understood the story based on the Malbim: obviously, everyone involved (including "Woman B," as you call her) knew that King Solomon's suggestion would result in the death of the child. After all, the second woman says גם לי גם לך לא יהיה - neither of us would end up with a child.



    Instead, the question was what do each of these woman really want out of this trial? Woman A (the child's mother) is obviously most interested in keeping her baby, but King Solomon recognized that the other woman was motivated by a desire to even the scales: she was upset by the fact that her child had died while her companion's child was alive. As they say in English, "misery loves company," or in Hebrew, צרת רבים חצי נחמה. The woman who was not the baby's mother wouldn't actually have said out loud that she wanted her friend's baby to die, and so Solomon had devised this "test" in order to get her to express what she was really after.



    Here's the commentary of the Malbim to I Kings 3:22, who shows that the wording of each of the two women tipped off King Solomon to the solution:




    ותאמר האשה האחרת לא כי בני החי ובנך המת וזאת אומרת לא כי בנך המת ובני החי, ספר הכתוב כי בדברם, אמרה הנתבעת בלשון בני החי ובנך המת
    והתובעת אמרה בהפך בנך המת ובני החי, וכלל בלשון שהאדם יקדים תמיד מה
    שהוא העקר ויאחר את הטפל ולפ''ז הסברא נותנת שהאשה שדקדקה להקדים בלשונה
    בני החי קודם עקר מגמתה שיהיה החי בנה, והמקדמת בלשונה בנך המת עקר מגמתה שיהיה המת בן חברתה, לא שיהיה החי בנה, ומזה כבר היה יכול
    להבין ולהכריע מי אמו



    "The other woman said, 'no rather it is my son who is alive and your
    son who is dead,' and this one says 'no rather it is your son who is
    dead and my son who is alive
    ."



    Scripture tells how regarding their words, by one claimant using the
    language of "my son is alive and your son is dead," and the
    other claimant saying [in] the reverse [order], "your son is dead
    and my son is alive
    ." There is a rule in man's language that he
    will always give precedent to what is primary and make later what is
    secondary, and therefore it is reasonable that the woman who was
    careful to give precedence in her words to my son is alive-her
    main objective is that her son be alive, and the [other woman] who
    gave precedence to your son is dead- her main objective was to
    say that the dead son was her companion's, but not that her son was
    the live one. And from this [Solomon] was already able to understand
    and discern who is his mother




    Thus, once it was clear to Solomon that the second woman was more interested in making sure that her fellow was the one subject to having a dead child, he was able to exploit that fact by showing that she would be fine with such a verdict - even at the expense of a child's life.






    share|improve this answer




















    • 2





      +1 Made an account just to upvote this. Like many I've known about this story since I was a child, but I never knew why the "false mother" didn't care if the baby was cut in half. It's a really critical piece that is left out of most homages to it. Very insightful read.

      – Wipqozn
      Jun 18 at 14:31











    • @הנער הזה what Wipqozn said- shkoyach gadol!

      – alicht
      Jun 18 at 15:52











    • Mélanie Klein spoke about the concept of envy

      – kouty
      Jun 18 at 20:56






    • 3





      "There is a rule in man's language that he will always give precedent to what is primary and make later what is secondary" - This is not a serviceable rule, and I have heard others put great weight on putting the strongest or most important piece last.

      – Joshua
      Jun 19 at 1:10











    • I always imagined that the real mother showed genuine emotion, and would have rather give up her child and have it live than submit to Solomon's test. The other woman seems to be cold and calculating and uncaring about the fate of the baby. I don't see the need for syntactic analysis to determine who was the real mother, or for inspiration for the test in the first place. It changes Solomon's wisdom from emotional and intuitive to logical and analytical, which decreases him in my eyes. If he is just using words instead of motivations, he doesn't care about the women or the baby either!

      – CJ Dennis
      Jun 20 at 4:15















    29














    I generally understood the story based on the Malbim: obviously, everyone involved (including "Woman B," as you call her) knew that King Solomon's suggestion would result in the death of the child. After all, the second woman says גם לי גם לך לא יהיה - neither of us would end up with a child.



    Instead, the question was what do each of these woman really want out of this trial? Woman A (the child's mother) is obviously most interested in keeping her baby, but King Solomon recognized that the other woman was motivated by a desire to even the scales: she was upset by the fact that her child had died while her companion's child was alive. As they say in English, "misery loves company," or in Hebrew, צרת רבים חצי נחמה. The woman who was not the baby's mother wouldn't actually have said out loud that she wanted her friend's baby to die, and so Solomon had devised this "test" in order to get her to express what she was really after.



    Here's the commentary of the Malbim to I Kings 3:22, who shows that the wording of each of the two women tipped off King Solomon to the solution:




    ותאמר האשה האחרת לא כי בני החי ובנך המת וזאת אומרת לא כי בנך המת ובני החי, ספר הכתוב כי בדברם, אמרה הנתבעת בלשון בני החי ובנך המת
    והתובעת אמרה בהפך בנך המת ובני החי, וכלל בלשון שהאדם יקדים תמיד מה
    שהוא העקר ויאחר את הטפל ולפ''ז הסברא נותנת שהאשה שדקדקה להקדים בלשונה
    בני החי קודם עקר מגמתה שיהיה החי בנה, והמקדמת בלשונה בנך המת עקר מגמתה שיהיה המת בן חברתה, לא שיהיה החי בנה, ומזה כבר היה יכול
    להבין ולהכריע מי אמו



    "The other woman said, 'no rather it is my son who is alive and your
    son who is dead,' and this one says 'no rather it is your son who is
    dead and my son who is alive
    ."



    Scripture tells how regarding their words, by one claimant using the
    language of "my son is alive and your son is dead," and the
    other claimant saying [in] the reverse [order], "your son is dead
    and my son is alive
    ." There is a rule in man's language that he
    will always give precedent to what is primary and make later what is
    secondary, and therefore it is reasonable that the woman who was
    careful to give precedence in her words to my son is alive-her
    main objective is that her son be alive, and the [other woman] who
    gave precedence to your son is dead- her main objective was to
    say that the dead son was her companion's, but not that her son was
    the live one. And from this [Solomon] was already able to understand
    and discern who is his mother




    Thus, once it was clear to Solomon that the second woman was more interested in making sure that her fellow was the one subject to having a dead child, he was able to exploit that fact by showing that she would be fine with such a verdict - even at the expense of a child's life.






    share|improve this answer




















    • 2





      +1 Made an account just to upvote this. Like many I've known about this story since I was a child, but I never knew why the "false mother" didn't care if the baby was cut in half. It's a really critical piece that is left out of most homages to it. Very insightful read.

      – Wipqozn
      Jun 18 at 14:31











    • @הנער הזה what Wipqozn said- shkoyach gadol!

      – alicht
      Jun 18 at 15:52











    • Mélanie Klein spoke about the concept of envy

      – kouty
      Jun 18 at 20:56






    • 3





      "There is a rule in man's language that he will always give precedent to what is primary and make later what is secondary" - This is not a serviceable rule, and I have heard others put great weight on putting the strongest or most important piece last.

      – Joshua
      Jun 19 at 1:10











    • I always imagined that the real mother showed genuine emotion, and would have rather give up her child and have it live than submit to Solomon's test. The other woman seems to be cold and calculating and uncaring about the fate of the baby. I don't see the need for syntactic analysis to determine who was the real mother, or for inspiration for the test in the first place. It changes Solomon's wisdom from emotional and intuitive to logical and analytical, which decreases him in my eyes. If he is just using words instead of motivations, he doesn't care about the women or the baby either!

      – CJ Dennis
      Jun 20 at 4:15













    29












    29








    29







    I generally understood the story based on the Malbim: obviously, everyone involved (including "Woman B," as you call her) knew that King Solomon's suggestion would result in the death of the child. After all, the second woman says גם לי גם לך לא יהיה - neither of us would end up with a child.



    Instead, the question was what do each of these woman really want out of this trial? Woman A (the child's mother) is obviously most interested in keeping her baby, but King Solomon recognized that the other woman was motivated by a desire to even the scales: she was upset by the fact that her child had died while her companion's child was alive. As they say in English, "misery loves company," or in Hebrew, צרת רבים חצי נחמה. The woman who was not the baby's mother wouldn't actually have said out loud that she wanted her friend's baby to die, and so Solomon had devised this "test" in order to get her to express what she was really after.



    Here's the commentary of the Malbim to I Kings 3:22, who shows that the wording of each of the two women tipped off King Solomon to the solution:




    ותאמר האשה האחרת לא כי בני החי ובנך המת וזאת אומרת לא כי בנך המת ובני החי, ספר הכתוב כי בדברם, אמרה הנתבעת בלשון בני החי ובנך המת
    והתובעת אמרה בהפך בנך המת ובני החי, וכלל בלשון שהאדם יקדים תמיד מה
    שהוא העקר ויאחר את הטפל ולפ''ז הסברא נותנת שהאשה שדקדקה להקדים בלשונה
    בני החי קודם עקר מגמתה שיהיה החי בנה, והמקדמת בלשונה בנך המת עקר מגמתה שיהיה המת בן חברתה, לא שיהיה החי בנה, ומזה כבר היה יכול
    להבין ולהכריע מי אמו



    "The other woman said, 'no rather it is my son who is alive and your
    son who is dead,' and this one says 'no rather it is your son who is
    dead and my son who is alive
    ."



    Scripture tells how regarding their words, by one claimant using the
    language of "my son is alive and your son is dead," and the
    other claimant saying [in] the reverse [order], "your son is dead
    and my son is alive
    ." There is a rule in man's language that he
    will always give precedent to what is primary and make later what is
    secondary, and therefore it is reasonable that the woman who was
    careful to give precedence in her words to my son is alive-her
    main objective is that her son be alive, and the [other woman] who
    gave precedence to your son is dead- her main objective was to
    say that the dead son was her companion's, but not that her son was
    the live one. And from this [Solomon] was already able to understand
    and discern who is his mother




    Thus, once it was clear to Solomon that the second woman was more interested in making sure that her fellow was the one subject to having a dead child, he was able to exploit that fact by showing that she would be fine with such a verdict - even at the expense of a child's life.






    share|improve this answer















    I generally understood the story based on the Malbim: obviously, everyone involved (including "Woman B," as you call her) knew that King Solomon's suggestion would result in the death of the child. After all, the second woman says גם לי גם לך לא יהיה - neither of us would end up with a child.



    Instead, the question was what do each of these woman really want out of this trial? Woman A (the child's mother) is obviously most interested in keeping her baby, but King Solomon recognized that the other woman was motivated by a desire to even the scales: she was upset by the fact that her child had died while her companion's child was alive. As they say in English, "misery loves company," or in Hebrew, צרת רבים חצי נחמה. The woman who was not the baby's mother wouldn't actually have said out loud that she wanted her friend's baby to die, and so Solomon had devised this "test" in order to get her to express what she was really after.



    Here's the commentary of the Malbim to I Kings 3:22, who shows that the wording of each of the two women tipped off King Solomon to the solution:




    ותאמר האשה האחרת לא כי בני החי ובנך המת וזאת אומרת לא כי בנך המת ובני החי, ספר הכתוב כי בדברם, אמרה הנתבעת בלשון בני החי ובנך המת
    והתובעת אמרה בהפך בנך המת ובני החי, וכלל בלשון שהאדם יקדים תמיד מה
    שהוא העקר ויאחר את הטפל ולפ''ז הסברא נותנת שהאשה שדקדקה להקדים בלשונה
    בני החי קודם עקר מגמתה שיהיה החי בנה, והמקדמת בלשונה בנך המת עקר מגמתה שיהיה המת בן חברתה, לא שיהיה החי בנה, ומזה כבר היה יכול
    להבין ולהכריע מי אמו



    "The other woman said, 'no rather it is my son who is alive and your
    son who is dead,' and this one says 'no rather it is your son who is
    dead and my son who is alive
    ."



    Scripture tells how regarding their words, by one claimant using the
    language of "my son is alive and your son is dead," and the
    other claimant saying [in] the reverse [order], "your son is dead
    and my son is alive
    ." There is a rule in man's language that he
    will always give precedent to what is primary and make later what is
    secondary, and therefore it is reasonable that the woman who was
    careful to give precedence in her words to my son is alive-her
    main objective is that her son be alive, and the [other woman] who
    gave precedence to your son is dead- her main objective was to
    say that the dead son was her companion's, but not that her son was
    the live one. And from this [Solomon] was already able to understand
    and discern who is his mother




    Thus, once it was clear to Solomon that the second woman was more interested in making sure that her fellow was the one subject to having a dead child, he was able to exploit that fact by showing that she would be fine with such a verdict - even at the expense of a child's life.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited Jun 20 at 21:41









    alicht

    5,1752 gold badges9 silver badges38 bronze badges




    5,1752 gold badges9 silver badges38 bronze badges










    answered Jun 18 at 1:25









    הנער הזההנער הזה

    18.3k1 gold badge67 silver badges110 bronze badges




    18.3k1 gold badge67 silver badges110 bronze badges







    • 2





      +1 Made an account just to upvote this. Like many I've known about this story since I was a child, but I never knew why the "false mother" didn't care if the baby was cut in half. It's a really critical piece that is left out of most homages to it. Very insightful read.

      – Wipqozn
      Jun 18 at 14:31











    • @הנער הזה what Wipqozn said- shkoyach gadol!

      – alicht
      Jun 18 at 15:52











    • Mélanie Klein spoke about the concept of envy

      – kouty
      Jun 18 at 20:56






    • 3





      "There is a rule in man's language that he will always give precedent to what is primary and make later what is secondary" - This is not a serviceable rule, and I have heard others put great weight on putting the strongest or most important piece last.

      – Joshua
      Jun 19 at 1:10











    • I always imagined that the real mother showed genuine emotion, and would have rather give up her child and have it live than submit to Solomon's test. The other woman seems to be cold and calculating and uncaring about the fate of the baby. I don't see the need for syntactic analysis to determine who was the real mother, or for inspiration for the test in the first place. It changes Solomon's wisdom from emotional and intuitive to logical and analytical, which decreases him in my eyes. If he is just using words instead of motivations, he doesn't care about the women or the baby either!

      – CJ Dennis
      Jun 20 at 4:15












    • 2





      +1 Made an account just to upvote this. Like many I've known about this story since I was a child, but I never knew why the "false mother" didn't care if the baby was cut in half. It's a really critical piece that is left out of most homages to it. Very insightful read.

      – Wipqozn
      Jun 18 at 14:31











    • @הנער הזה what Wipqozn said- shkoyach gadol!

      – alicht
      Jun 18 at 15:52











    • Mélanie Klein spoke about the concept of envy

      – kouty
      Jun 18 at 20:56






    • 3





      "There is a rule in man's language that he will always give precedent to what is primary and make later what is secondary" - This is not a serviceable rule, and I have heard others put great weight on putting the strongest or most important piece last.

      – Joshua
      Jun 19 at 1:10











    • I always imagined that the real mother showed genuine emotion, and would have rather give up her child and have it live than submit to Solomon's test. The other woman seems to be cold and calculating and uncaring about the fate of the baby. I don't see the need for syntactic analysis to determine who was the real mother, or for inspiration for the test in the first place. It changes Solomon's wisdom from emotional and intuitive to logical and analytical, which decreases him in my eyes. If he is just using words instead of motivations, he doesn't care about the women or the baby either!

      – CJ Dennis
      Jun 20 at 4:15







    2




    2





    +1 Made an account just to upvote this. Like many I've known about this story since I was a child, but I never knew why the "false mother" didn't care if the baby was cut in half. It's a really critical piece that is left out of most homages to it. Very insightful read.

    – Wipqozn
    Jun 18 at 14:31





    +1 Made an account just to upvote this. Like many I've known about this story since I was a child, but I never knew why the "false mother" didn't care if the baby was cut in half. It's a really critical piece that is left out of most homages to it. Very insightful read.

    – Wipqozn
    Jun 18 at 14:31













    @הנער הזה what Wipqozn said- shkoyach gadol!

    – alicht
    Jun 18 at 15:52





    @הנער הזה what Wipqozn said- shkoyach gadol!

    – alicht
    Jun 18 at 15:52













    Mélanie Klein spoke about the concept of envy

    – kouty
    Jun 18 at 20:56





    Mélanie Klein spoke about the concept of envy

    – kouty
    Jun 18 at 20:56




    3




    3





    "There is a rule in man's language that he will always give precedent to what is primary and make later what is secondary" - This is not a serviceable rule, and I have heard others put great weight on putting the strongest or most important piece last.

    – Joshua
    Jun 19 at 1:10





    "There is a rule in man's language that he will always give precedent to what is primary and make later what is secondary" - This is not a serviceable rule, and I have heard others put great weight on putting the strongest or most important piece last.

    – Joshua
    Jun 19 at 1:10













    I always imagined that the real mother showed genuine emotion, and would have rather give up her child and have it live than submit to Solomon's test. The other woman seems to be cold and calculating and uncaring about the fate of the baby. I don't see the need for syntactic analysis to determine who was the real mother, or for inspiration for the test in the first place. It changes Solomon's wisdom from emotional and intuitive to logical and analytical, which decreases him in my eyes. If he is just using words instead of motivations, he doesn't care about the women or the baby either!

    – CJ Dennis
    Jun 20 at 4:15





    I always imagined that the real mother showed genuine emotion, and would have rather give up her child and have it live than submit to Solomon's test. The other woman seems to be cold and calculating and uncaring about the fate of the baby. I don't see the need for syntactic analysis to determine who was the real mother, or for inspiration for the test in the first place. It changes Solomon's wisdom from emotional and intuitive to logical and analytical, which decreases him in my eyes. If he is just using words instead of motivations, he doesn't care about the women or the baby either!

    – CJ Dennis
    Jun 20 at 4:15













    12














    The Meiri asks and answers this question in Yevamos 17b:




    והוא הענין שנאמר בהגדה על אותן שתים נשים זונות שבאו לדין לפני שלמה שהרי כשצוה שלמה לגזור את הילד החי והשיבה האחת תנו לה את הילוד החי והמת אל תמיתוהו היה ראוי לאחרת להשיב את שלי היא נותנת לי וכשאמרה גם לי גם לך גו' סכלות היה ופתיות שלה ומה היה מכיר שלמה בדבר זה ומה תועלת היה רואה לה בדבריה אלא ששתי נשים אלו כלה וחמותה היו ומתו בעליהן בלא בנים אחרים אלא אלו השנים ומת ילד זה של הכלה וכל שמת תוך שלשים נדון כנפל והרי היא זקוקה ליבום וכשמצאה עצמה צריכה להמתין לאותו ולד של חמותה ותתעגן י"ג שנים החליפה חי במת כדי לומר שבנה הוא ותפטר משני צדדין שהרי תאמר שיש לה בן ואין לה יבם וכשאמר שלמה גזרו את הילד החי שמחה מפני שנוח היה לה בכך כדי לינשא בהיתר והרגיש שלמה בענין זה והשאירו לחמותה



    The two women were mother-in-law and daughter-in-law and their husbands had died before having any other children other than these two. The daughter-in-law's son had died within 30 days of being born, which would be considered a Nefel and would not exempt her from Yibum. Therefore the daughter-in-law would have to wait until the mother-in-law's child (her husband's new barely contemporary brother) to reach 13 years old in order to do Yibum or Chalitza, and she would remain an Agunah until then, unable to get married. Instead, she switched her child with her mother-in-law's child, this way she could be exempt from Yibum by having a surviving child (and no Yavam). When Shlomo said to cut the baby in half, the daughter-in-law approved of this because it would still allow her to get remarried as there would be no Yavam.




    Here is a diagram which may help clarify:
    Family Tree






    share|improve this answer

























    • Please pardon my ignorance (I'm new here), but what is "Yevamos?"

      – Rusty Lemur
      Jun 18 at 19:31






    • 2





      @RustyLemur Yevamos is the name of a book of the Talmud which explains the laws of Yibum. Yibum is called "levirate marriage". It is a Torah Law that if a man dies childless then his wife must marry the deceased's brother, so the child born of the new marriage will count as a survivor spiritually for the dead brother. See Deutoronomy 25:5-10.

      – David Kenner
      Jun 18 at 19:54











    • en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levirate_marriage

      – Silver
      Jun 18 at 20:10






    • 3





      What is the grounds on which it claims that these two women were mother-in-law and daughter-in-law?

      – Rusty Lemur
      Jun 18 at 21:10






    • 1





      @RustyLemur there is no textual source for this, the only grounds for this claim is as a proposal to explain why the second women would prefer for the baby to be killed instead of taking the baby she had just claimed was her child.

      – simyou
      Jun 19 at 10:13















    12














    The Meiri asks and answers this question in Yevamos 17b:




    והוא הענין שנאמר בהגדה על אותן שתים נשים זונות שבאו לדין לפני שלמה שהרי כשצוה שלמה לגזור את הילד החי והשיבה האחת תנו לה את הילוד החי והמת אל תמיתוהו היה ראוי לאחרת להשיב את שלי היא נותנת לי וכשאמרה גם לי גם לך גו' סכלות היה ופתיות שלה ומה היה מכיר שלמה בדבר זה ומה תועלת היה רואה לה בדבריה אלא ששתי נשים אלו כלה וחמותה היו ומתו בעליהן בלא בנים אחרים אלא אלו השנים ומת ילד זה של הכלה וכל שמת תוך שלשים נדון כנפל והרי היא זקוקה ליבום וכשמצאה עצמה צריכה להמתין לאותו ולד של חמותה ותתעגן י"ג שנים החליפה חי במת כדי לומר שבנה הוא ותפטר משני צדדין שהרי תאמר שיש לה בן ואין לה יבם וכשאמר שלמה גזרו את הילד החי שמחה מפני שנוח היה לה בכך כדי לינשא בהיתר והרגיש שלמה בענין זה והשאירו לחמותה



    The two women were mother-in-law and daughter-in-law and their husbands had died before having any other children other than these two. The daughter-in-law's son had died within 30 days of being born, which would be considered a Nefel and would not exempt her from Yibum. Therefore the daughter-in-law would have to wait until the mother-in-law's child (her husband's new barely contemporary brother) to reach 13 years old in order to do Yibum or Chalitza, and she would remain an Agunah until then, unable to get married. Instead, she switched her child with her mother-in-law's child, this way she could be exempt from Yibum by having a surviving child (and no Yavam). When Shlomo said to cut the baby in half, the daughter-in-law approved of this because it would still allow her to get remarried as there would be no Yavam.




    Here is a diagram which may help clarify:
    Family Tree






    share|improve this answer

























    • Please pardon my ignorance (I'm new here), but what is "Yevamos?"

      – Rusty Lemur
      Jun 18 at 19:31






    • 2





      @RustyLemur Yevamos is the name of a book of the Talmud which explains the laws of Yibum. Yibum is called "levirate marriage". It is a Torah Law that if a man dies childless then his wife must marry the deceased's brother, so the child born of the new marriage will count as a survivor spiritually for the dead brother. See Deutoronomy 25:5-10.

      – David Kenner
      Jun 18 at 19:54











    • en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levirate_marriage

      – Silver
      Jun 18 at 20:10






    • 3





      What is the grounds on which it claims that these two women were mother-in-law and daughter-in-law?

      – Rusty Lemur
      Jun 18 at 21:10






    • 1





      @RustyLemur there is no textual source for this, the only grounds for this claim is as a proposal to explain why the second women would prefer for the baby to be killed instead of taking the baby she had just claimed was her child.

      – simyou
      Jun 19 at 10:13













    12












    12








    12







    The Meiri asks and answers this question in Yevamos 17b:




    והוא הענין שנאמר בהגדה על אותן שתים נשים זונות שבאו לדין לפני שלמה שהרי כשצוה שלמה לגזור את הילד החי והשיבה האחת תנו לה את הילוד החי והמת אל תמיתוהו היה ראוי לאחרת להשיב את שלי היא נותנת לי וכשאמרה גם לי גם לך גו' סכלות היה ופתיות שלה ומה היה מכיר שלמה בדבר זה ומה תועלת היה רואה לה בדבריה אלא ששתי נשים אלו כלה וחמותה היו ומתו בעליהן בלא בנים אחרים אלא אלו השנים ומת ילד זה של הכלה וכל שמת תוך שלשים נדון כנפל והרי היא זקוקה ליבום וכשמצאה עצמה צריכה להמתין לאותו ולד של חמותה ותתעגן י"ג שנים החליפה חי במת כדי לומר שבנה הוא ותפטר משני צדדין שהרי תאמר שיש לה בן ואין לה יבם וכשאמר שלמה גזרו את הילד החי שמחה מפני שנוח היה לה בכך כדי לינשא בהיתר והרגיש שלמה בענין זה והשאירו לחמותה



    The two women were mother-in-law and daughter-in-law and their husbands had died before having any other children other than these two. The daughter-in-law's son had died within 30 days of being born, which would be considered a Nefel and would not exempt her from Yibum. Therefore the daughter-in-law would have to wait until the mother-in-law's child (her husband's new barely contemporary brother) to reach 13 years old in order to do Yibum or Chalitza, and she would remain an Agunah until then, unable to get married. Instead, she switched her child with her mother-in-law's child, this way she could be exempt from Yibum by having a surviving child (and no Yavam). When Shlomo said to cut the baby in half, the daughter-in-law approved of this because it would still allow her to get remarried as there would be no Yavam.




    Here is a diagram which may help clarify:
    Family Tree






    share|improve this answer















    The Meiri asks and answers this question in Yevamos 17b:




    והוא הענין שנאמר בהגדה על אותן שתים נשים זונות שבאו לדין לפני שלמה שהרי כשצוה שלמה לגזור את הילד החי והשיבה האחת תנו לה את הילוד החי והמת אל תמיתוהו היה ראוי לאחרת להשיב את שלי היא נותנת לי וכשאמרה גם לי גם לך גו' סכלות היה ופתיות שלה ומה היה מכיר שלמה בדבר זה ומה תועלת היה רואה לה בדבריה אלא ששתי נשים אלו כלה וחמותה היו ומתו בעליהן בלא בנים אחרים אלא אלו השנים ומת ילד זה של הכלה וכל שמת תוך שלשים נדון כנפל והרי היא זקוקה ליבום וכשמצאה עצמה צריכה להמתין לאותו ולד של חמותה ותתעגן י"ג שנים החליפה חי במת כדי לומר שבנה הוא ותפטר משני צדדין שהרי תאמר שיש לה בן ואין לה יבם וכשאמר שלמה גזרו את הילד החי שמחה מפני שנוח היה לה בכך כדי לינשא בהיתר והרגיש שלמה בענין זה והשאירו לחמותה



    The two women were mother-in-law and daughter-in-law and their husbands had died before having any other children other than these two. The daughter-in-law's son had died within 30 days of being born, which would be considered a Nefel and would not exempt her from Yibum. Therefore the daughter-in-law would have to wait until the mother-in-law's child (her husband's new barely contemporary brother) to reach 13 years old in order to do Yibum or Chalitza, and she would remain an Agunah until then, unable to get married. Instead, she switched her child with her mother-in-law's child, this way she could be exempt from Yibum by having a surviving child (and no Yavam). When Shlomo said to cut the baby in half, the daughter-in-law approved of this because it would still allow her to get remarried as there would be no Yavam.




    Here is a diagram which may help clarify:
    Family Tree







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited Jun 18 at 20:55

























    answered Jun 18 at 15:48









    SilverSilver

    5921 silver badge12 bronze badges




    5921 silver badge12 bronze badges












    • Please pardon my ignorance (I'm new here), but what is "Yevamos?"

      – Rusty Lemur
      Jun 18 at 19:31






    • 2





      @RustyLemur Yevamos is the name of a book of the Talmud which explains the laws of Yibum. Yibum is called "levirate marriage". It is a Torah Law that if a man dies childless then his wife must marry the deceased's brother, so the child born of the new marriage will count as a survivor spiritually for the dead brother. See Deutoronomy 25:5-10.

      – David Kenner
      Jun 18 at 19:54











    • en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levirate_marriage

      – Silver
      Jun 18 at 20:10






    • 3





      What is the grounds on which it claims that these two women were mother-in-law and daughter-in-law?

      – Rusty Lemur
      Jun 18 at 21:10






    • 1





      @RustyLemur there is no textual source for this, the only grounds for this claim is as a proposal to explain why the second women would prefer for the baby to be killed instead of taking the baby she had just claimed was her child.

      – simyou
      Jun 19 at 10:13

















    • Please pardon my ignorance (I'm new here), but what is "Yevamos?"

      – Rusty Lemur
      Jun 18 at 19:31






    • 2





      @RustyLemur Yevamos is the name of a book of the Talmud which explains the laws of Yibum. Yibum is called "levirate marriage". It is a Torah Law that if a man dies childless then his wife must marry the deceased's brother, so the child born of the new marriage will count as a survivor spiritually for the dead brother. See Deutoronomy 25:5-10.

      – David Kenner
      Jun 18 at 19:54











    • en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levirate_marriage

      – Silver
      Jun 18 at 20:10






    • 3





      What is the grounds on which it claims that these two women were mother-in-law and daughter-in-law?

      – Rusty Lemur
      Jun 18 at 21:10






    • 1





      @RustyLemur there is no textual source for this, the only grounds for this claim is as a proposal to explain why the second women would prefer for the baby to be killed instead of taking the baby she had just claimed was her child.

      – simyou
      Jun 19 at 10:13
















    Please pardon my ignorance (I'm new here), but what is "Yevamos?"

    – Rusty Lemur
    Jun 18 at 19:31





    Please pardon my ignorance (I'm new here), but what is "Yevamos?"

    – Rusty Lemur
    Jun 18 at 19:31




    2




    2





    @RustyLemur Yevamos is the name of a book of the Talmud which explains the laws of Yibum. Yibum is called "levirate marriage". It is a Torah Law that if a man dies childless then his wife must marry the deceased's brother, so the child born of the new marriage will count as a survivor spiritually for the dead brother. See Deutoronomy 25:5-10.

    – David Kenner
    Jun 18 at 19:54





    @RustyLemur Yevamos is the name of a book of the Talmud which explains the laws of Yibum. Yibum is called "levirate marriage". It is a Torah Law that if a man dies childless then his wife must marry the deceased's brother, so the child born of the new marriage will count as a survivor spiritually for the dead brother. See Deutoronomy 25:5-10.

    – David Kenner
    Jun 18 at 19:54













    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levirate_marriage

    – Silver
    Jun 18 at 20:10





    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levirate_marriage

    – Silver
    Jun 18 at 20:10




    3




    3





    What is the grounds on which it claims that these two women were mother-in-law and daughter-in-law?

    – Rusty Lemur
    Jun 18 at 21:10





    What is the grounds on which it claims that these two women were mother-in-law and daughter-in-law?

    – Rusty Lemur
    Jun 18 at 21:10




    1




    1





    @RustyLemur there is no textual source for this, the only grounds for this claim is as a proposal to explain why the second women would prefer for the baby to be killed instead of taking the baby she had just claimed was her child.

    – simyou
    Jun 19 at 10:13





    @RustyLemur there is no textual source for this, the only grounds for this claim is as a proposal to explain why the second women would prefer for the baby to be killed instead of taking the baby she had just claimed was her child.

    – simyou
    Jun 19 at 10:13











    6














    She was calling the king's bluff.



    My understanding of the story goes against the universal one, but fits with the text and answers your question and a lot of others --



    The first woman to speak (the one holding the live child) was trying to be demonstrative of how motherly she was, expecting to be allowed to keep the child, even though she was saying that she would let the other one take the baby.



    The second women felt trapped. She can't say "yes, I will take the baby", because the first one will be allowed to keep the baby for being more "motherly". Obviously she can't now say, "no, you keep the baby". So she passes the play back to Shlomo. He never meant to kill the child, and neither did she.



    גם לי גם לך לא יהיה - I will not take the child, and neither will you - I will not play along with your fake offer for me to take the child, and I do not accept that you should be given the child for it.



    Shlomo actually gave the baby to this woman, and not to the one who was willing to let the other take the baby. The first was a show off, the second was authentic.



    There is a vague pronoun reference when the king says, "Give her the child". Though it is always understood to be referring to the first one, grammatically it should refer to the last one who spoke, i.e. the one who was not willing to give up her child to the other.



    This obviously quite shocked all who were present, who "stood in awe of the king; for they saw that he possessed divine wisdom to execute justice."






    share|improve this answer

























    • How does this answer deal with verse 26? "But the woman whose son was the live one pleaded with the king, for she was overcome with compassion for her son."

      – Rusty Lemur
      Jun 18 at 18:26











    • @RustyLemur at that point in the story we still don't know who was telling the truth, so I think it should be read "the woman who was holding the live child." Another reason I like this reading is that we know at the end of the story that the baby was, in fact, switched, because the one holding the baby does not get to keep it in the end. In the classic reading of the story we never find out if this story was true or not.

      – simyou
      Jun 18 at 18:49











    • Does the original language allow for the interpretation to be "But the woman who was holding the live one"? Or is it coming from the vantage point that the author knows who the real mother was?

      – Rusty Lemur
      Jun 18 at 19:28











    • The literal translation of the Hebrew "הָאִשָּׁה֩ אֲשֶׁר־בְּנָ֨הּ הַחַ֜י" is "the woman, whose son was the live one". It is more natural to read it, as it is universally read, that it means the real mother of the live child, but I believe it can also be read as I suggested, "the woman, whose baby was the live one," I admit it is a slight stretch, but I believe it is valid.

      – simyou
      Jun 19 at 10:05











    • er, how does calling the kings bluff show she's the mother? Sorry, this doesn't seem to even start working.

      – Orangesandlemons
      Jun 19 at 11:40















    6














    She was calling the king's bluff.



    My understanding of the story goes against the universal one, but fits with the text and answers your question and a lot of others --



    The first woman to speak (the one holding the live child) was trying to be demonstrative of how motherly she was, expecting to be allowed to keep the child, even though she was saying that she would let the other one take the baby.



    The second women felt trapped. She can't say "yes, I will take the baby", because the first one will be allowed to keep the baby for being more "motherly". Obviously she can't now say, "no, you keep the baby". So she passes the play back to Shlomo. He never meant to kill the child, and neither did she.



    גם לי גם לך לא יהיה - I will not take the child, and neither will you - I will not play along with your fake offer for me to take the child, and I do not accept that you should be given the child for it.



    Shlomo actually gave the baby to this woman, and not to the one who was willing to let the other take the baby. The first was a show off, the second was authentic.



    There is a vague pronoun reference when the king says, "Give her the child". Though it is always understood to be referring to the first one, grammatically it should refer to the last one who spoke, i.e. the one who was not willing to give up her child to the other.



    This obviously quite shocked all who were present, who "stood in awe of the king; for they saw that he possessed divine wisdom to execute justice."






    share|improve this answer

























    • How does this answer deal with verse 26? "But the woman whose son was the live one pleaded with the king, for she was overcome with compassion for her son."

      – Rusty Lemur
      Jun 18 at 18:26











    • @RustyLemur at that point in the story we still don't know who was telling the truth, so I think it should be read "the woman who was holding the live child." Another reason I like this reading is that we know at the end of the story that the baby was, in fact, switched, because the one holding the baby does not get to keep it in the end. In the classic reading of the story we never find out if this story was true or not.

      – simyou
      Jun 18 at 18:49











    • Does the original language allow for the interpretation to be "But the woman who was holding the live one"? Or is it coming from the vantage point that the author knows who the real mother was?

      – Rusty Lemur
      Jun 18 at 19:28











    • The literal translation of the Hebrew "הָאִשָּׁה֩ אֲשֶׁר־בְּנָ֨הּ הַחַ֜י" is "the woman, whose son was the live one". It is more natural to read it, as it is universally read, that it means the real mother of the live child, but I believe it can also be read as I suggested, "the woman, whose baby was the live one," I admit it is a slight stretch, but I believe it is valid.

      – simyou
      Jun 19 at 10:05











    • er, how does calling the kings bluff show she's the mother? Sorry, this doesn't seem to even start working.

      – Orangesandlemons
      Jun 19 at 11:40













    6












    6








    6







    She was calling the king's bluff.



    My understanding of the story goes against the universal one, but fits with the text and answers your question and a lot of others --



    The first woman to speak (the one holding the live child) was trying to be demonstrative of how motherly she was, expecting to be allowed to keep the child, even though she was saying that she would let the other one take the baby.



    The second women felt trapped. She can't say "yes, I will take the baby", because the first one will be allowed to keep the baby for being more "motherly". Obviously she can't now say, "no, you keep the baby". So she passes the play back to Shlomo. He never meant to kill the child, and neither did she.



    גם לי גם לך לא יהיה - I will not take the child, and neither will you - I will not play along with your fake offer for me to take the child, and I do not accept that you should be given the child for it.



    Shlomo actually gave the baby to this woman, and not to the one who was willing to let the other take the baby. The first was a show off, the second was authentic.



    There is a vague pronoun reference when the king says, "Give her the child". Though it is always understood to be referring to the first one, grammatically it should refer to the last one who spoke, i.e. the one who was not willing to give up her child to the other.



    This obviously quite shocked all who were present, who "stood in awe of the king; for they saw that he possessed divine wisdom to execute justice."






    share|improve this answer















    She was calling the king's bluff.



    My understanding of the story goes against the universal one, but fits with the text and answers your question and a lot of others --



    The first woman to speak (the one holding the live child) was trying to be demonstrative of how motherly she was, expecting to be allowed to keep the child, even though she was saying that she would let the other one take the baby.



    The second women felt trapped. She can't say "yes, I will take the baby", because the first one will be allowed to keep the baby for being more "motherly". Obviously she can't now say, "no, you keep the baby". So she passes the play back to Shlomo. He never meant to kill the child, and neither did she.



    גם לי גם לך לא יהיה - I will not take the child, and neither will you - I will not play along with your fake offer for me to take the child, and I do not accept that you should be given the child for it.



    Shlomo actually gave the baby to this woman, and not to the one who was willing to let the other take the baby. The first was a show off, the second was authentic.



    There is a vague pronoun reference when the king says, "Give her the child". Though it is always understood to be referring to the first one, grammatically it should refer to the last one who spoke, i.e. the one who was not willing to give up her child to the other.



    This obviously quite shocked all who were present, who "stood in awe of the king; for they saw that he possessed divine wisdom to execute justice."







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited Jun 18 at 20:29









    msh210

    49.3k11 gold badges96 silver badges297 bronze badges




    49.3k11 gold badges96 silver badges297 bronze badges










    answered Jun 18 at 8:49









    simyousimyou

    3166 bronze badges




    3166 bronze badges












    • How does this answer deal with verse 26? "But the woman whose son was the live one pleaded with the king, for she was overcome with compassion for her son."

      – Rusty Lemur
      Jun 18 at 18:26











    • @RustyLemur at that point in the story we still don't know who was telling the truth, so I think it should be read "the woman who was holding the live child." Another reason I like this reading is that we know at the end of the story that the baby was, in fact, switched, because the one holding the baby does not get to keep it in the end. In the classic reading of the story we never find out if this story was true or not.

      – simyou
      Jun 18 at 18:49











    • Does the original language allow for the interpretation to be "But the woman who was holding the live one"? Or is it coming from the vantage point that the author knows who the real mother was?

      – Rusty Lemur
      Jun 18 at 19:28











    • The literal translation of the Hebrew "הָאִשָּׁה֩ אֲשֶׁר־בְּנָ֨הּ הַחַ֜י" is "the woman, whose son was the live one". It is more natural to read it, as it is universally read, that it means the real mother of the live child, but I believe it can also be read as I suggested, "the woman, whose baby was the live one," I admit it is a slight stretch, but I believe it is valid.

      – simyou
      Jun 19 at 10:05











    • er, how does calling the kings bluff show she's the mother? Sorry, this doesn't seem to even start working.

      – Orangesandlemons
      Jun 19 at 11:40

















    • How does this answer deal with verse 26? "But the woman whose son was the live one pleaded with the king, for she was overcome with compassion for her son."

      – Rusty Lemur
      Jun 18 at 18:26











    • @RustyLemur at that point in the story we still don't know who was telling the truth, so I think it should be read "the woman who was holding the live child." Another reason I like this reading is that we know at the end of the story that the baby was, in fact, switched, because the one holding the baby does not get to keep it in the end. In the classic reading of the story we never find out if this story was true or not.

      – simyou
      Jun 18 at 18:49











    • Does the original language allow for the interpretation to be "But the woman who was holding the live one"? Or is it coming from the vantage point that the author knows who the real mother was?

      – Rusty Lemur
      Jun 18 at 19:28











    • The literal translation of the Hebrew "הָאִשָּׁה֩ אֲשֶׁר־בְּנָ֨הּ הַחַ֜י" is "the woman, whose son was the live one". It is more natural to read it, as it is universally read, that it means the real mother of the live child, but I believe it can also be read as I suggested, "the woman, whose baby was the live one," I admit it is a slight stretch, but I believe it is valid.

      – simyou
      Jun 19 at 10:05











    • er, how does calling the kings bluff show she's the mother? Sorry, this doesn't seem to even start working.

      – Orangesandlemons
      Jun 19 at 11:40
















    How does this answer deal with verse 26? "But the woman whose son was the live one pleaded with the king, for she was overcome with compassion for her son."

    – Rusty Lemur
    Jun 18 at 18:26





    How does this answer deal with verse 26? "But the woman whose son was the live one pleaded with the king, for she was overcome with compassion for her son."

    – Rusty Lemur
    Jun 18 at 18:26













    @RustyLemur at that point in the story we still don't know who was telling the truth, so I think it should be read "the woman who was holding the live child." Another reason I like this reading is that we know at the end of the story that the baby was, in fact, switched, because the one holding the baby does not get to keep it in the end. In the classic reading of the story we never find out if this story was true or not.

    – simyou
    Jun 18 at 18:49





    @RustyLemur at that point in the story we still don't know who was telling the truth, so I think it should be read "the woman who was holding the live child." Another reason I like this reading is that we know at the end of the story that the baby was, in fact, switched, because the one holding the baby does not get to keep it in the end. In the classic reading of the story we never find out if this story was true or not.

    – simyou
    Jun 18 at 18:49













    Does the original language allow for the interpretation to be "But the woman who was holding the live one"? Or is it coming from the vantage point that the author knows who the real mother was?

    – Rusty Lemur
    Jun 18 at 19:28





    Does the original language allow for the interpretation to be "But the woman who was holding the live one"? Or is it coming from the vantage point that the author knows who the real mother was?

    – Rusty Lemur
    Jun 18 at 19:28













    The literal translation of the Hebrew "הָאִשָּׁה֩ אֲשֶׁר־בְּנָ֨הּ הַחַ֜י" is "the woman, whose son was the live one". It is more natural to read it, as it is universally read, that it means the real mother of the live child, but I believe it can also be read as I suggested, "the woman, whose baby was the live one," I admit it is a slight stretch, but I believe it is valid.

    – simyou
    Jun 19 at 10:05





    The literal translation of the Hebrew "הָאִשָּׁה֩ אֲשֶׁר־בְּנָ֨הּ הַחַ֜י" is "the woman, whose son was the live one". It is more natural to read it, as it is universally read, that it means the real mother of the live child, but I believe it can also be read as I suggested, "the woman, whose baby was the live one," I admit it is a slight stretch, but I believe it is valid.

    – simyou
    Jun 19 at 10:05













    er, how does calling the kings bluff show she's the mother? Sorry, this doesn't seem to even start working.

    – Orangesandlemons
    Jun 19 at 11:40





    er, how does calling the kings bluff show she's the mother? Sorry, this doesn't seem to even start working.

    – Orangesandlemons
    Jun 19 at 11:40











    2














    The reason should be understood as the following:



    Being creatures of dual, competing interests, there exists in some persons, such as myself, the ability for or a manifestation of a vindictive spirit, or attitude, under certain circumstances. It is related to envy/covetousness, and jealously (in the negative sense).



    In the case of envy, when we observe something that is not ours that we want, we wish we could have it. If we can't, we may even wish the other did not have it, in order to relieve ourselves of having to even compare with the fact that they have something we don't have, but want. Under severe stain, it is the same spirit as "If I can't have it, nobody can!" It's just plain wrong, misinformed, and ought to be weeded out of us by either a) good parenting, or b) ourselves when recognized.



    For jealously, we either
    a) have something that we hold dear, or
    b) we believe that someone has something that "should be ours" through a rationalization of having been wronged, and therefore "deserving" of the object that we believe ought to be ours. This is closely related to envy. However in this state of mind we cannot recognize it as envy, because we "believe" that the object "should" be ours.



    The woman who agreed to cut the baby in half was in these states. She was the very unfortunate recipient of having lost a child, coupled with not having the self-awareness (which often comes through good parenting or divine gift, but which may also come secondary to these by individual recognition) to see or understand that her state was a terrible one, bitter and terrible enough to agree to the destruction of another life out of co-morbid envy and jealousy gone wild. Solomon had the wisdom to know that such an individual should not be either "the" parent, or a parent at all.



    I have been fortunate enough to see the existence of these states in myself, only perhaps not as closely tied to the life and death of another individual, the honor for which ought to go to my parents.






    share|improve this answer








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      2














      The reason should be understood as the following:



      Being creatures of dual, competing interests, there exists in some persons, such as myself, the ability for or a manifestation of a vindictive spirit, or attitude, under certain circumstances. It is related to envy/covetousness, and jealously (in the negative sense).



      In the case of envy, when we observe something that is not ours that we want, we wish we could have it. If we can't, we may even wish the other did not have it, in order to relieve ourselves of having to even compare with the fact that they have something we don't have, but want. Under severe stain, it is the same spirit as "If I can't have it, nobody can!" It's just plain wrong, misinformed, and ought to be weeded out of us by either a) good parenting, or b) ourselves when recognized.



      For jealously, we either
      a) have something that we hold dear, or
      b) we believe that someone has something that "should be ours" through a rationalization of having been wronged, and therefore "deserving" of the object that we believe ought to be ours. This is closely related to envy. However in this state of mind we cannot recognize it as envy, because we "believe" that the object "should" be ours.



      The woman who agreed to cut the baby in half was in these states. She was the very unfortunate recipient of having lost a child, coupled with not having the self-awareness (which often comes through good parenting or divine gift, but which may also come secondary to these by individual recognition) to see or understand that her state was a terrible one, bitter and terrible enough to agree to the destruction of another life out of co-morbid envy and jealousy gone wild. Solomon had the wisdom to know that such an individual should not be either "the" parent, or a parent at all.



      I have been fortunate enough to see the existence of these states in myself, only perhaps not as closely tied to the life and death of another individual, the honor for which ought to go to my parents.






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      Hypocritus is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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        2












        2








        2







        The reason should be understood as the following:



        Being creatures of dual, competing interests, there exists in some persons, such as myself, the ability for or a manifestation of a vindictive spirit, or attitude, under certain circumstances. It is related to envy/covetousness, and jealously (in the negative sense).



        In the case of envy, when we observe something that is not ours that we want, we wish we could have it. If we can't, we may even wish the other did not have it, in order to relieve ourselves of having to even compare with the fact that they have something we don't have, but want. Under severe stain, it is the same spirit as "If I can't have it, nobody can!" It's just plain wrong, misinformed, and ought to be weeded out of us by either a) good parenting, or b) ourselves when recognized.



        For jealously, we either
        a) have something that we hold dear, or
        b) we believe that someone has something that "should be ours" through a rationalization of having been wronged, and therefore "deserving" of the object that we believe ought to be ours. This is closely related to envy. However in this state of mind we cannot recognize it as envy, because we "believe" that the object "should" be ours.



        The woman who agreed to cut the baby in half was in these states. She was the very unfortunate recipient of having lost a child, coupled with not having the self-awareness (which often comes through good parenting or divine gift, but which may also come secondary to these by individual recognition) to see or understand that her state was a terrible one, bitter and terrible enough to agree to the destruction of another life out of co-morbid envy and jealousy gone wild. Solomon had the wisdom to know that such an individual should not be either "the" parent, or a parent at all.



        I have been fortunate enough to see the existence of these states in myself, only perhaps not as closely tied to the life and death of another individual, the honor for which ought to go to my parents.






        share|improve this answer








        New contributor



        Hypocritus is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.









        The reason should be understood as the following:



        Being creatures of dual, competing interests, there exists in some persons, such as myself, the ability for or a manifestation of a vindictive spirit, or attitude, under certain circumstances. It is related to envy/covetousness, and jealously (in the negative sense).



        In the case of envy, when we observe something that is not ours that we want, we wish we could have it. If we can't, we may even wish the other did not have it, in order to relieve ourselves of having to even compare with the fact that they have something we don't have, but want. Under severe stain, it is the same spirit as "If I can't have it, nobody can!" It's just plain wrong, misinformed, and ought to be weeded out of us by either a) good parenting, or b) ourselves when recognized.



        For jealously, we either
        a) have something that we hold dear, or
        b) we believe that someone has something that "should be ours" through a rationalization of having been wronged, and therefore "deserving" of the object that we believe ought to be ours. This is closely related to envy. However in this state of mind we cannot recognize it as envy, because we "believe" that the object "should" be ours.



        The woman who agreed to cut the baby in half was in these states. She was the very unfortunate recipient of having lost a child, coupled with not having the self-awareness (which often comes through good parenting or divine gift, but which may also come secondary to these by individual recognition) to see or understand that her state was a terrible one, bitter and terrible enough to agree to the destruction of another life out of co-morbid envy and jealousy gone wild. Solomon had the wisdom to know that such an individual should not be either "the" parent, or a parent at all.



        I have been fortunate enough to see the existence of these states in myself, only perhaps not as closely tied to the life and death of another individual, the honor for which ought to go to my parents.







        share|improve this answer








        New contributor



        Hypocritus is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.








        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer






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        answered Jun 19 at 16:24









        HypocritusHypocritus

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