Count a Torah scroll as the tenth in a minyan?What is the appropriate method for transporting a Torah scroll?Agnostic Jew serving as the tenth for a minyanDo men on the women's side count toward a minyan?Ta'amei Mikra and the Torah ScrollWhy Is A Yemenite Torah Scroll Kosher?Consequences for dropping a Torah scrollCan a robot count in a minyan?Cleaning a Torah ScrollWhen is a Torah scroll kosher?Protecting a Torah scroll with plastic sheet

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Count a Torah scroll as the tenth in a minyan?


What is the appropriate method for transporting a Torah scroll?Agnostic Jew serving as the tenth for a minyanDo men on the women's side count toward a minyan?Ta'amei Mikra and the Torah ScrollWhy Is A Yemenite Torah Scroll Kosher?Consequences for dropping a Torah scrollCan a robot count in a minyan?Cleaning a Torah ScrollWhen is a Torah scroll kosher?Protecting a Torah scroll with plastic sheet






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








3















There is a widespread perception in non-traditional congregations that the Torah scroll can count as a tenth to make a minyan.



However, the Code of Jewish Law does not mention that. It only says that some authorities allow a six-year-old boy to count as the tenth in a minyan, provided he holds a Chumash or Sefer Torah and understands what he is doing [Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayyim 55:4]. Some, led by the Ri (Rabbi Isaac ben Samuel the Elder of Dampierre) reject this view. The current practice is that some permit it only in extraordinary circumstances [The Rosh and Mordechai and Hagahot Maimoni Chapter 9 of the Laws of Prayer].



So, is there any basis in our tradition for this practice in non-traditional synagogues?










share|improve this question






























    3















    There is a widespread perception in non-traditional congregations that the Torah scroll can count as a tenth to make a minyan.



    However, the Code of Jewish Law does not mention that. It only says that some authorities allow a six-year-old boy to count as the tenth in a minyan, provided he holds a Chumash or Sefer Torah and understands what he is doing [Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayyim 55:4]. Some, led by the Ri (Rabbi Isaac ben Samuel the Elder of Dampierre) reject this view. The current practice is that some permit it only in extraordinary circumstances [The Rosh and Mordechai and Hagahot Maimoni Chapter 9 of the Laws of Prayer].



    So, is there any basis in our tradition for this practice in non-traditional synagogues?










    share|improve this question


























      3












      3








      3








      There is a widespread perception in non-traditional congregations that the Torah scroll can count as a tenth to make a minyan.



      However, the Code of Jewish Law does not mention that. It only says that some authorities allow a six-year-old boy to count as the tenth in a minyan, provided he holds a Chumash or Sefer Torah and understands what he is doing [Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayyim 55:4]. Some, led by the Ri (Rabbi Isaac ben Samuel the Elder of Dampierre) reject this view. The current practice is that some permit it only in extraordinary circumstances [The Rosh and Mordechai and Hagahot Maimoni Chapter 9 of the Laws of Prayer].



      So, is there any basis in our tradition for this practice in non-traditional synagogues?










      share|improve this question
















      There is a widespread perception in non-traditional congregations that the Torah scroll can count as a tenth to make a minyan.



      However, the Code of Jewish Law does not mention that. It only says that some authorities allow a six-year-old boy to count as the tenth in a minyan, provided he holds a Chumash or Sefer Torah and understands what he is doing [Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayyim 55:4]. Some, led by the Ri (Rabbi Isaac ben Samuel the Elder of Dampierre) reject this view. The current practice is that some permit it only in extraordinary circumstances [The Rosh and Mordechai and Hagahot Maimoni Chapter 9 of the Laws of Prayer].



      So, is there any basis in our tradition for this practice in non-traditional synagogues?







      halacha sefer-torah minyan






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited Jun 30 at 5:07









      mbloch

      28.2k5 gold badges50 silver badges135 bronze badges




      28.2k5 gold badges50 silver badges135 bronze badges










      asked Jun 30 at 3:29









      Maurice MizrahiMaurice Mizrahi

      3,3264 silver badges16 bronze badges




      3,3264 silver badges16 bronze badges




















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          5














          R David Sperling at yeshiva.co here addresses your question and brings a number of rejected opinions - to be clear the halacha remains that a Torah scroll does not count as a tenth in a minyan




          In regards the question of using a Sefer Torah as the "tenth man" in a
          minyan – yes this does have a vague hint of a source
          . Firstly, the
          Talmud (Brachot 47b) when discussing forming a minyan for saying zimun
          before grace after meals (with Hashem's name in it), says "Said Rav
          Huna, "Nine and the Aron [Kodesh] join up [to be counted as ten]". The
          Talmud immediately rejects this and says "Is the Aron a person!". This
          then may be the (rejected) source for the idea that the Sefer Torah
          counts for a minyan.



          However, we do find some reference in halacha to some form of using a
          sefer Torah for a minyan. The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Haim 55,4) talks
          about including a boy less than bar-mitzvah age as the tenth for a
          minyan, and writes that this is forbidden. The Rema adds that there
          are those that in a time of need do rely on using a child, as long as
          he is holding a Chumash in his hands. The overwhelming consensus of
          Rabinic opinion is not to rely on this opinion even in times of need
          (see Mishna Brurah there).



          The source for the idea that a minor holding a chumash or Sefer Torah
          might be counted for a minyan is discussed by the Rosh
          (Berachot 7,
          20) where he discusses at length the opinions that allow one child to
          be counted towards a minyan, and he writes "The only source for this
          [counting a child who is holding a chumash] is Pirkei d'R. Eliezer,
          regarding Ibur Shanah [declaring a leap year]. There, it mentions a
          Sefer Torah. It says that R. Eliezer requires ten for Ibur Shanah, and
          if we lack one, we bring a Sefer Torah
          . It does not say that the minor
          holds it. Even if there is such a source regarding Tefilah, this is
          only for a Sefer Torah or Chumash, i.e. one Sefer of the Torah written
          on parchment. Chazal did not have [printed] Chumashim like we do.



          The Yerushalmi says "a minor and a Sefer Torah, we include them for
          10."
          This means a minor or a Sefer Torah, just like nine men and the Aron. The Halachah does not follow the Yerushalmi. Some texts of the
          Yerushalmi say "a minor and a Sefer Torah, we include oto (him, or
          it)." This is like the custom (that the minor holds the Sefer). Or,
          perhaps it means that a minor may be counted among the seven required
          Aliyos."



          From here we see that in fact there is a situation where a Sefer Torah
          makes up a minyan (for declaring a leap year) according to one
          opinion, and perhaps even for a minyan for prayer, according to the
          Yerusalemi Talmud. However, the halacha is not like this source
          , and
          we do not use a Sefer Torah (nor a child) as a "tenth man" for a
          minyan. In extreme situations a community should consult there Rabbi
          as to the advisability of relying on the minor opinions that allow
          counting a child who is holding a Sefer Torah for a minyan.







          share|improve this answer























          • Thanks. Where in the Yerushalmi?

            – Maurice Mizrahi
            Jun 30 at 16:03











          • To be fair to Rav Huna in Berachot 37b, he talked about "nine who appear like ten", meaning that, since you can't count Jews, it's not obvious whether there are 9 or 10!

            – Maurice Mizrahi
            Jun 30 at 16:10











          • I have seen references to this Yerushalmi as 7:2 but haven't seen it inside

            – mbloch
            Jun 30 at 18:09




















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes








          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          5














          R David Sperling at yeshiva.co here addresses your question and brings a number of rejected opinions - to be clear the halacha remains that a Torah scroll does not count as a tenth in a minyan




          In regards the question of using a Sefer Torah as the "tenth man" in a
          minyan – yes this does have a vague hint of a source
          . Firstly, the
          Talmud (Brachot 47b) when discussing forming a minyan for saying zimun
          before grace after meals (with Hashem's name in it), says "Said Rav
          Huna, "Nine and the Aron [Kodesh] join up [to be counted as ten]". The
          Talmud immediately rejects this and says "Is the Aron a person!". This
          then may be the (rejected) source for the idea that the Sefer Torah
          counts for a minyan.



          However, we do find some reference in halacha to some form of using a
          sefer Torah for a minyan. The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Haim 55,4) talks
          about including a boy less than bar-mitzvah age as the tenth for a
          minyan, and writes that this is forbidden. The Rema adds that there
          are those that in a time of need do rely on using a child, as long as
          he is holding a Chumash in his hands. The overwhelming consensus of
          Rabinic opinion is not to rely on this opinion even in times of need
          (see Mishna Brurah there).



          The source for the idea that a minor holding a chumash or Sefer Torah
          might be counted for a minyan is discussed by the Rosh
          (Berachot 7,
          20) where he discusses at length the opinions that allow one child to
          be counted towards a minyan, and he writes "The only source for this
          [counting a child who is holding a chumash] is Pirkei d'R. Eliezer,
          regarding Ibur Shanah [declaring a leap year]. There, it mentions a
          Sefer Torah. It says that R. Eliezer requires ten for Ibur Shanah, and
          if we lack one, we bring a Sefer Torah
          . It does not say that the minor
          holds it. Even if there is such a source regarding Tefilah, this is
          only for a Sefer Torah or Chumash, i.e. one Sefer of the Torah written
          on parchment. Chazal did not have [printed] Chumashim like we do.



          The Yerushalmi says "a minor and a Sefer Torah, we include them for
          10."
          This means a minor or a Sefer Torah, just like nine men and the Aron. The Halachah does not follow the Yerushalmi. Some texts of the
          Yerushalmi say "a minor and a Sefer Torah, we include oto (him, or
          it)." This is like the custom (that the minor holds the Sefer). Or,
          perhaps it means that a minor may be counted among the seven required
          Aliyos."



          From here we see that in fact there is a situation where a Sefer Torah
          makes up a minyan (for declaring a leap year) according to one
          opinion, and perhaps even for a minyan for prayer, according to the
          Yerusalemi Talmud. However, the halacha is not like this source
          , and
          we do not use a Sefer Torah (nor a child) as a "tenth man" for a
          minyan. In extreme situations a community should consult there Rabbi
          as to the advisability of relying on the minor opinions that allow
          counting a child who is holding a Sefer Torah for a minyan.







          share|improve this answer























          • Thanks. Where in the Yerushalmi?

            – Maurice Mizrahi
            Jun 30 at 16:03











          • To be fair to Rav Huna in Berachot 37b, he talked about "nine who appear like ten", meaning that, since you can't count Jews, it's not obvious whether there are 9 or 10!

            – Maurice Mizrahi
            Jun 30 at 16:10











          • I have seen references to this Yerushalmi as 7:2 but haven't seen it inside

            – mbloch
            Jun 30 at 18:09















          5














          R David Sperling at yeshiva.co here addresses your question and brings a number of rejected opinions - to be clear the halacha remains that a Torah scroll does not count as a tenth in a minyan




          In regards the question of using a Sefer Torah as the "tenth man" in a
          minyan – yes this does have a vague hint of a source
          . Firstly, the
          Talmud (Brachot 47b) when discussing forming a minyan for saying zimun
          before grace after meals (with Hashem's name in it), says "Said Rav
          Huna, "Nine and the Aron [Kodesh] join up [to be counted as ten]". The
          Talmud immediately rejects this and says "Is the Aron a person!". This
          then may be the (rejected) source for the idea that the Sefer Torah
          counts for a minyan.



          However, we do find some reference in halacha to some form of using a
          sefer Torah for a minyan. The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Haim 55,4) talks
          about including a boy less than bar-mitzvah age as the tenth for a
          minyan, and writes that this is forbidden. The Rema adds that there
          are those that in a time of need do rely on using a child, as long as
          he is holding a Chumash in his hands. The overwhelming consensus of
          Rabinic opinion is not to rely on this opinion even in times of need
          (see Mishna Brurah there).



          The source for the idea that a minor holding a chumash or Sefer Torah
          might be counted for a minyan is discussed by the Rosh
          (Berachot 7,
          20) where he discusses at length the opinions that allow one child to
          be counted towards a minyan, and he writes "The only source for this
          [counting a child who is holding a chumash] is Pirkei d'R. Eliezer,
          regarding Ibur Shanah [declaring a leap year]. There, it mentions a
          Sefer Torah. It says that R. Eliezer requires ten for Ibur Shanah, and
          if we lack one, we bring a Sefer Torah
          . It does not say that the minor
          holds it. Even if there is such a source regarding Tefilah, this is
          only for a Sefer Torah or Chumash, i.e. one Sefer of the Torah written
          on parchment. Chazal did not have [printed] Chumashim like we do.



          The Yerushalmi says "a minor and a Sefer Torah, we include them for
          10."
          This means a minor or a Sefer Torah, just like nine men and the Aron. The Halachah does not follow the Yerushalmi. Some texts of the
          Yerushalmi say "a minor and a Sefer Torah, we include oto (him, or
          it)." This is like the custom (that the minor holds the Sefer). Or,
          perhaps it means that a minor may be counted among the seven required
          Aliyos."



          From here we see that in fact there is a situation where a Sefer Torah
          makes up a minyan (for declaring a leap year) according to one
          opinion, and perhaps even for a minyan for prayer, according to the
          Yerusalemi Talmud. However, the halacha is not like this source
          , and
          we do not use a Sefer Torah (nor a child) as a "tenth man" for a
          minyan. In extreme situations a community should consult there Rabbi
          as to the advisability of relying on the minor opinions that allow
          counting a child who is holding a Sefer Torah for a minyan.







          share|improve this answer























          • Thanks. Where in the Yerushalmi?

            – Maurice Mizrahi
            Jun 30 at 16:03











          • To be fair to Rav Huna in Berachot 37b, he talked about "nine who appear like ten", meaning that, since you can't count Jews, it's not obvious whether there are 9 or 10!

            – Maurice Mizrahi
            Jun 30 at 16:10











          • I have seen references to this Yerushalmi as 7:2 but haven't seen it inside

            – mbloch
            Jun 30 at 18:09













          5












          5








          5







          R David Sperling at yeshiva.co here addresses your question and brings a number of rejected opinions - to be clear the halacha remains that a Torah scroll does not count as a tenth in a minyan




          In regards the question of using a Sefer Torah as the "tenth man" in a
          minyan – yes this does have a vague hint of a source
          . Firstly, the
          Talmud (Brachot 47b) when discussing forming a minyan for saying zimun
          before grace after meals (with Hashem's name in it), says "Said Rav
          Huna, "Nine and the Aron [Kodesh] join up [to be counted as ten]". The
          Talmud immediately rejects this and says "Is the Aron a person!". This
          then may be the (rejected) source for the idea that the Sefer Torah
          counts for a minyan.



          However, we do find some reference in halacha to some form of using a
          sefer Torah for a minyan. The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Haim 55,4) talks
          about including a boy less than bar-mitzvah age as the tenth for a
          minyan, and writes that this is forbidden. The Rema adds that there
          are those that in a time of need do rely on using a child, as long as
          he is holding a Chumash in his hands. The overwhelming consensus of
          Rabinic opinion is not to rely on this opinion even in times of need
          (see Mishna Brurah there).



          The source for the idea that a minor holding a chumash or Sefer Torah
          might be counted for a minyan is discussed by the Rosh
          (Berachot 7,
          20) where he discusses at length the opinions that allow one child to
          be counted towards a minyan, and he writes "The only source for this
          [counting a child who is holding a chumash] is Pirkei d'R. Eliezer,
          regarding Ibur Shanah [declaring a leap year]. There, it mentions a
          Sefer Torah. It says that R. Eliezer requires ten for Ibur Shanah, and
          if we lack one, we bring a Sefer Torah
          . It does not say that the minor
          holds it. Even if there is such a source regarding Tefilah, this is
          only for a Sefer Torah or Chumash, i.e. one Sefer of the Torah written
          on parchment. Chazal did not have [printed] Chumashim like we do.



          The Yerushalmi says "a minor and a Sefer Torah, we include them for
          10."
          This means a minor or a Sefer Torah, just like nine men and the Aron. The Halachah does not follow the Yerushalmi. Some texts of the
          Yerushalmi say "a minor and a Sefer Torah, we include oto (him, or
          it)." This is like the custom (that the minor holds the Sefer). Or,
          perhaps it means that a minor may be counted among the seven required
          Aliyos."



          From here we see that in fact there is a situation where a Sefer Torah
          makes up a minyan (for declaring a leap year) according to one
          opinion, and perhaps even for a minyan for prayer, according to the
          Yerusalemi Talmud. However, the halacha is not like this source
          , and
          we do not use a Sefer Torah (nor a child) as a "tenth man" for a
          minyan. In extreme situations a community should consult there Rabbi
          as to the advisability of relying on the minor opinions that allow
          counting a child who is holding a Sefer Torah for a minyan.







          share|improve this answer













          R David Sperling at yeshiva.co here addresses your question and brings a number of rejected opinions - to be clear the halacha remains that a Torah scroll does not count as a tenth in a minyan




          In regards the question of using a Sefer Torah as the "tenth man" in a
          minyan – yes this does have a vague hint of a source
          . Firstly, the
          Talmud (Brachot 47b) when discussing forming a minyan for saying zimun
          before grace after meals (with Hashem's name in it), says "Said Rav
          Huna, "Nine and the Aron [Kodesh] join up [to be counted as ten]". The
          Talmud immediately rejects this and says "Is the Aron a person!". This
          then may be the (rejected) source for the idea that the Sefer Torah
          counts for a minyan.



          However, we do find some reference in halacha to some form of using a
          sefer Torah for a minyan. The Shulchan Aruch (Orach Haim 55,4) talks
          about including a boy less than bar-mitzvah age as the tenth for a
          minyan, and writes that this is forbidden. The Rema adds that there
          are those that in a time of need do rely on using a child, as long as
          he is holding a Chumash in his hands. The overwhelming consensus of
          Rabinic opinion is not to rely on this opinion even in times of need
          (see Mishna Brurah there).



          The source for the idea that a minor holding a chumash or Sefer Torah
          might be counted for a minyan is discussed by the Rosh
          (Berachot 7,
          20) where he discusses at length the opinions that allow one child to
          be counted towards a minyan, and he writes "The only source for this
          [counting a child who is holding a chumash] is Pirkei d'R. Eliezer,
          regarding Ibur Shanah [declaring a leap year]. There, it mentions a
          Sefer Torah. It says that R. Eliezer requires ten for Ibur Shanah, and
          if we lack one, we bring a Sefer Torah
          . It does not say that the minor
          holds it. Even if there is such a source regarding Tefilah, this is
          only for a Sefer Torah or Chumash, i.e. one Sefer of the Torah written
          on parchment. Chazal did not have [printed] Chumashim like we do.



          The Yerushalmi says "a minor and a Sefer Torah, we include them for
          10."
          This means a minor or a Sefer Torah, just like nine men and the Aron. The Halachah does not follow the Yerushalmi. Some texts of the
          Yerushalmi say "a minor and a Sefer Torah, we include oto (him, or
          it)." This is like the custom (that the minor holds the Sefer). Or,
          perhaps it means that a minor may be counted among the seven required
          Aliyos."



          From here we see that in fact there is a situation where a Sefer Torah
          makes up a minyan (for declaring a leap year) according to one
          opinion, and perhaps even for a minyan for prayer, according to the
          Yerusalemi Talmud. However, the halacha is not like this source
          , and
          we do not use a Sefer Torah (nor a child) as a "tenth man" for a
          minyan. In extreme situations a community should consult there Rabbi
          as to the advisability of relying on the minor opinions that allow
          counting a child who is holding a Sefer Torah for a minyan.








          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered Jun 30 at 5:07









          mblochmbloch

          28.2k5 gold badges50 silver badges135 bronze badges




          28.2k5 gold badges50 silver badges135 bronze badges












          • Thanks. Where in the Yerushalmi?

            – Maurice Mizrahi
            Jun 30 at 16:03











          • To be fair to Rav Huna in Berachot 37b, he talked about "nine who appear like ten", meaning that, since you can't count Jews, it's not obvious whether there are 9 or 10!

            – Maurice Mizrahi
            Jun 30 at 16:10











          • I have seen references to this Yerushalmi as 7:2 but haven't seen it inside

            – mbloch
            Jun 30 at 18:09

















          • Thanks. Where in the Yerushalmi?

            – Maurice Mizrahi
            Jun 30 at 16:03











          • To be fair to Rav Huna in Berachot 37b, he talked about "nine who appear like ten", meaning that, since you can't count Jews, it's not obvious whether there are 9 or 10!

            – Maurice Mizrahi
            Jun 30 at 16:10











          • I have seen references to this Yerushalmi as 7:2 but haven't seen it inside

            – mbloch
            Jun 30 at 18:09
















          Thanks. Where in the Yerushalmi?

          – Maurice Mizrahi
          Jun 30 at 16:03





          Thanks. Where in the Yerushalmi?

          – Maurice Mizrahi
          Jun 30 at 16:03













          To be fair to Rav Huna in Berachot 37b, he talked about "nine who appear like ten", meaning that, since you can't count Jews, it's not obvious whether there are 9 or 10!

          – Maurice Mizrahi
          Jun 30 at 16:10





          To be fair to Rav Huna in Berachot 37b, he talked about "nine who appear like ten", meaning that, since you can't count Jews, it's not obvious whether there are 9 or 10!

          – Maurice Mizrahi
          Jun 30 at 16:10













          I have seen references to this Yerushalmi as 7:2 but haven't seen it inside

          – mbloch
          Jun 30 at 18:09





          I have seen references to this Yerushalmi as 7:2 but haven't seen it inside

          – mbloch
          Jun 30 at 18:09



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