Meaning of “Not holding on that level of emuna/bitachon”Conversion: If G-d really wanted me to be a Jew (and observe mitzvot), why was I not born into a Jewish familyIs there a source where Emuna and Bitachon are described as separate ideas?Clarifications on FaithHow do we logically know that there are not 2 Gods (according to the Chovos HaLevavos)?Why do Jews believe the entire Torah, as opposed to parts or most, was given by God to Moses?Meaning of “emunah shlaima”?If voting doesn't do anything, should one vote?Explanation of Alter Rebbe's proof of G-d?How does Hashem relate to the bitachon (faith) of a wicked person?How does one know his balance between Hishtadlus and Bitachon?
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Meaning of “Not holding on that level of emuna/bitachon”
Conversion: If G-d really wanted me to be a Jew (and observe mitzvot), why was I not born into a Jewish familyIs there a source where Emuna and Bitachon are described as separate ideas?Clarifications on FaithHow do we logically know that there are not 2 Gods (according to the Chovos HaLevavos)?Why do Jews believe the entire Torah, as opposed to parts or most, was given by God to Moses?Meaning of “emunah shlaima”?If voting doesn't do anything, should one vote?Explanation of Alter Rebbe's proof of G-d?How does Hashem relate to the bitachon (faith) of a wicked person?How does one know his balance between Hishtadlus and Bitachon?
(Hi newbie here :) I hope I'm writing this post correctly.)
What does it mean when people say "I'm not holding on that level of emuna/bitachon"?
I've seen and heard countless times when people say that really whatever is supposed to happen will happen just "I'm not holding on that level" therefore they do more hishtadlus.
How does this make sense? Either you believe or you don't.
If you believe then why do you need more hishtadlus if you don't believe aren't you considered a heretic?
hashkafah-philosophy faith-bitachon-emunah
edited Apr 22 at 23:02
Al Berko
6,8022529
asked Apr 22 at 19:10
ChaimChaim
265
New contributor
Chaim is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
(Hi newbie here :) I hope I'm writing this post correctly.)
What does it mean when people say "I'm not holding on that level of emuna/bitachon"?
I've seen and heard countless times when people say that really whatever is supposed to happen will happen just "I'm not holding on that level" therefore they do more hishtadlus.
How does this make sense? Either you believe or you don't.
If you believe then why do you need more hishtadlus if you don't believe aren't you considered a heretic?
hashkafah-philosophy faith-bitachon-emunah
edited Apr 22 at 23:02
Al Berko
6,8022529
asked Apr 22 at 19:10
ChaimChaim
265
New contributor
Chaim is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
how do you know what is the proper amount of hishtadlus?
– michael
Apr 22 at 19:52
1
Not sure I've ever heard that said
– Double AA♦
Apr 22 at 19:57
@michael let's take an easy example. Winning a raffle. One ticket is enough hishtadlus. But ask someone if they would rather have 9 tickets in a 10:1 raffle.
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 19:59
@Chaim dont we have to work within the natural order of things?
– michael
2 days ago
1
@michael if you're referring to ain somchin al haness then yes we do. But buying one ticket isn't unnatural.
– Chaim
2 days ago
add a comment |
(Hi newbie here :) I hope I'm writing this post correctly.)
What does it mean when people say "I'm not holding on that level of emuna/bitachon"?
I've seen and heard countless times when people say that really whatever is supposed to happen will happen just "I'm not holding on that level" therefore they do more hishtadlus.
How does this make sense? Either you believe or you don't.
If you believe then why do you need more hishtadlus if you don't believe aren't you considered a heretic?
hashkafah-philosophy faith-bitachon-emunah
edited Apr 22 at 23:02
Al Berko
6,8022529
asked Apr 22 at 19:10
ChaimChaim
265
New contributor
Chaim is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
(Hi newbie here :) I hope I'm writing this post correctly.)
What does it mean when people say "I'm not holding on that level of emuna/bitachon"?
I've seen and heard countless times when people say that really whatever is supposed to happen will happen just "I'm not holding on that level" therefore they do more hishtadlus.
How does this make sense? Either you believe or you don't.
If you believe then why do you need more hishtadlus if you don't believe aren't you considered a heretic?
hashkafah-philosophy faith-bitachon-emunah
hashkafah-philosophy faith-bitachon-emunah
edited Apr 22 at 23:02
Al Berko
6,8022529
asked Apr 22 at 19:10
ChaimChaim
265
New contributor
Chaim is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited Apr 22 at 23:02
Al Berko
6,8022529
asked Apr 22 at 19:10
ChaimChaim
265
New contributor
Chaim is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited Apr 22 at 23:02
Al Berko
6,8022529
edited Apr 22 at 23:02
Al Berko
6,8022529
edited Apr 22 at 23:02
Al Berko
6,8022529
6,8022529
asked Apr 22 at 19:10
ChaimChaim
265
New contributor
Chaim is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked Apr 22 at 19:10
ChaimChaim
265
asked Apr 22 at 19:10
ChaimChaim
265
265
New contributor
Chaim is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Chaim is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Chaim is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
how do you know what is the proper amount of hishtadlus?
– michael
Apr 22 at 19:52
1
Not sure I've ever heard that said
– Double AA♦
Apr 22 at 19:57
@michael let's take an easy example. Winning a raffle. One ticket is enough hishtadlus. But ask someone if they would rather have 9 tickets in a 10:1 raffle.
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 19:59
@Chaim dont we have to work within the natural order of things?
– michael
2 days ago
1
@michael if you're referring to ain somchin al haness then yes we do. But buying one ticket isn't unnatural.
– Chaim
2 days ago
add a comment |
how do you know what is the proper amount of hishtadlus?
– michael
Apr 22 at 19:52
1
Not sure I've ever heard that said
– Double AA♦
Apr 22 at 19:57
@michael let's take an easy example. Winning a raffle. One ticket is enough hishtadlus. But ask someone if they would rather have 9 tickets in a 10:1 raffle.
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 19:59
@Chaim dont we have to work within the natural order of things?
– michael
2 days ago
1
@michael if you're referring to ain somchin al haness then yes we do. But buying one ticket isn't unnatural.
– Chaim
2 days ago
how do you know what is the proper amount of hishtadlus?
– michael
Apr 22 at 19:52
how do you know what is the proper amount of hishtadlus?
– michael
Apr 22 at 19:52
1
1
Not sure I've ever heard that said
– Double AA♦
Apr 22 at 19:57
Not sure I've ever heard that said
– Double AA♦
Apr 22 at 19:57
@michael let's take an easy example. Winning a raffle. One ticket is enough hishtadlus. But ask someone if they would rather have 9 tickets in a 10:1 raffle.
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 19:59
@michael let's take an easy example. Winning a raffle. One ticket is enough hishtadlus. But ask someone if they would rather have 9 tickets in a 10:1 raffle.
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 19:59
@Chaim dont we have to work within the natural order of things?
– michael
2 days ago
@Chaim dont we have to work within the natural order of things?
– michael
2 days ago
1
1
@michael if you're referring to ain somchin al haness then yes we do. But buying one ticket isn't unnatural.
– Chaim
2 days ago
@michael if you're referring to ain somchin al haness then yes we do. But buying one ticket isn't unnatural.
– Chaim
2 days ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
Chaim, welcome to Mi Yodeya.
I am not overly familiar with the changing nuances of "yeshivish", so I can't say that this particular phrase is something that I have heard verbatim. But, in addressing the concept implied by your question, you may want to gain some clarity between two similar terms - bitachon and emunah.
There are numerous articles on this topic, but I think this summary from "The Shmuz" is good:
The Rambam defines emunah as the knowledge that HASHEM created and
continues to run all of Creation. Simply put, nothing can exist and no
activity can occur without HASHEM.
Bitachon, however, is a quite different. The Chovos Halevovos defines
bitachon as trusting in HASHEM. It is a sense of relying on HASHEM to
watch over and protect me, as if to say, “I take my heavy burden and
place it on HASHEM.” While I am responsible to be proactive, I am not
in charge of the outcome, and I am not the determinant of the results.
I rely on HASHEM to care for me.
Emunah is a state of understanding; bitachon is a state of trust.
Emunah means knowing that HASHEM is involved in every activity on the
planet; bitachon means trusting in HASHEM in every situation.
A person can have emunah and not bitachon
So, to clarify the expression that you've probably heard, you are correct in that either you have emunah or not. This is kind of an absolute degree of understanding and appreciation. Either you believe that God is responsible for everything that happens or not. You can't just believe that God is responsible for some things and not for others. The concept of emunah is that God is involved in everything. If you don't believe that, you have a lack of emunah. I think a heretic involved specific stronger action then just a lack of emunah. I.e. this doesn't deny that there is a God, and it doesn't mean that you convince others of the idea. It's that you think that some things, perhaps, happen by God, but not other things. A heretic denies that God is involved in anything at all.
Now bitachon - yes, there are definitely levels to this. We see this every day in numerous people. Many people believe that if they invest in Amazon stocks today, that almost guarantees that they will make a profit in a year. What happens when that fails? They mope, they suffer distress, etc. They didn't trust that the ultimate outcome is up to God. They lacked bitachon. Or, opposite, I'm sure you've seen shidduchim break off because someone found a minor flaw in the other and thought that was major to not make the marriage work. If they had a greater level of bitachon, and trusted that God decides the outcome, they might have continued the shidduch.
In summary, I think people really mean to say "My level of bitachon is not great; I need to work on that." It is, possible that they were referring to "emunah", but, as I explained, above, it seems that emunah doesn't have degrees or partiality.
answered Apr 22 at 22:37
DanFDanF
35.6k529138
Thanks for the response. I'm not understanding how the word "trust" relates to bitachon. Is there anybody that thinks God has a reason not to do what He usually does? Even after this distinction between emuna and bitachon I still have a hard time understanding how it's possible to have different levels of bitachon. How is it possible for you to believe someone always does something but not "trust" them that they will?
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 23:38
Chaim, I think you may be missing a significant nuance. A comparison may help. A son may believe that his father is the person who is responsible for his welfare. I.e., the son understands the role of his father to do that. However, he may not trust that his father will be there to care for him under all circumstances and every situation.
– DanF
Apr 23 at 1:14
add a comment |
I'll give you an example: It is very clearly seen here in Jerusalem's HMOs when the residents of all kinds bring their kids to vaccinate. First, come the secular, then Kipah Sruga, then the Litvakes, then the Chassidishers and the last (but not least) the Yerushalmi. And some never come.
And we can rate them clearly according to their level of Bitachon in Hashem. So each previous group can say "I don't have that level of Bitachon of the next group ... to put my kids in danger".
answered Apr 22 at 23:21
Al BerkoAl Berko
6,8022529
Lol I was going to write vaccines as an example but I figured I'll stick away from the controversy
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 23:23
1
This stigma is not representative of the reality of the charedi community.
– kouty
2 days ago
1
It's also not a controversy. It's just objectively some idiots killing children. @chaim
– Double AA♦
2 days ago
@Double AA of course.
– kouty
2 days ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Chaim, welcome to Mi Yodeya.
I am not overly familiar with the changing nuances of "yeshivish", so I can't say that this particular phrase is something that I have heard verbatim. But, in addressing the concept implied by your question, you may want to gain some clarity between two similar terms - bitachon and emunah.
There are numerous articles on this topic, but I think this summary from "The Shmuz" is good:
The Rambam defines emunah as the knowledge that HASHEM created and
continues to run all of Creation. Simply put, nothing can exist and no
activity can occur without HASHEM.
Bitachon, however, is a quite different. The Chovos Halevovos defines
bitachon as trusting in HASHEM. It is a sense of relying on HASHEM to
watch over and protect me, as if to say, “I take my heavy burden and
place it on HASHEM.” While I am responsible to be proactive, I am not
in charge of the outcome, and I am not the determinant of the results.
I rely on HASHEM to care for me.
Emunah is a state of understanding; bitachon is a state of trust.
Emunah means knowing that HASHEM is involved in every activity on the
planet; bitachon means trusting in HASHEM in every situation.
A person can have emunah and not bitachon
So, to clarify the expression that you've probably heard, you are correct in that either you have emunah or not. This is kind of an absolute degree of understanding and appreciation. Either you believe that God is responsible for everything that happens or not. You can't just believe that God is responsible for some things and not for others. The concept of emunah is that God is involved in everything. If you don't believe that, you have a lack of emunah. I think a heretic involved specific stronger action then just a lack of emunah. I.e. this doesn't deny that there is a God, and it doesn't mean that you convince others of the idea. It's that you think that some things, perhaps, happen by God, but not other things. A heretic denies that God is involved in anything at all.
Now bitachon - yes, there are definitely levels to this. We see this every day in numerous people. Many people believe that if they invest in Amazon stocks today, that almost guarantees that they will make a profit in a year. What happens when that fails? They mope, they suffer distress, etc. They didn't trust that the ultimate outcome is up to God. They lacked bitachon. Or, opposite, I'm sure you've seen shidduchim break off because someone found a minor flaw in the other and thought that was major to not make the marriage work. If they had a greater level of bitachon, and trusted that God decides the outcome, they might have continued the shidduch.
In summary, I think people really mean to say "My level of bitachon is not great; I need to work on that." It is, possible that they were referring to "emunah", but, as I explained, above, it seems that emunah doesn't have degrees or partiality.
answered Apr 22 at 22:37
DanFDanF
35.6k529138
Thanks for the response. I'm not understanding how the word "trust" relates to bitachon. Is there anybody that thinks God has a reason not to do what He usually does? Even after this distinction between emuna and bitachon I still have a hard time understanding how it's possible to have different levels of bitachon. How is it possible for you to believe someone always does something but not "trust" them that they will?
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 23:38
Chaim, I think you may be missing a significant nuance. A comparison may help. A son may believe that his father is the person who is responsible for his welfare. I.e., the son understands the role of his father to do that. However, he may not trust that his father will be there to care for him under all circumstances and every situation.
– DanF
Apr 23 at 1:14
add a comment |
Chaim, welcome to Mi Yodeya.
I am not overly familiar with the changing nuances of "yeshivish", so I can't say that this particular phrase is something that I have heard verbatim. But, in addressing the concept implied by your question, you may want to gain some clarity between two similar terms - bitachon and emunah.
There are numerous articles on this topic, but I think this summary from "The Shmuz" is good:
The Rambam defines emunah as the knowledge that HASHEM created and
continues to run all of Creation. Simply put, nothing can exist and no
activity can occur without HASHEM.
Bitachon, however, is a quite different. The Chovos Halevovos defines
bitachon as trusting in HASHEM. It is a sense of relying on HASHEM to
watch over and protect me, as if to say, “I take my heavy burden and
place it on HASHEM.” While I am responsible to be proactive, I am not
in charge of the outcome, and I am not the determinant of the results.
I rely on HASHEM to care for me.
Emunah is a state of understanding; bitachon is a state of trust.
Emunah means knowing that HASHEM is involved in every activity on the
planet; bitachon means trusting in HASHEM in every situation.
A person can have emunah and not bitachon
So, to clarify the expression that you've probably heard, you are correct in that either you have emunah or not. This is kind of an absolute degree of understanding and appreciation. Either you believe that God is responsible for everything that happens or not. You can't just believe that God is responsible for some things and not for others. The concept of emunah is that God is involved in everything. If you don't believe that, you have a lack of emunah. I think a heretic involved specific stronger action then just a lack of emunah. I.e. this doesn't deny that there is a God, and it doesn't mean that you convince others of the idea. It's that you think that some things, perhaps, happen by God, but not other things. A heretic denies that God is involved in anything at all.
Now bitachon - yes, there are definitely levels to this. We see this every day in numerous people. Many people believe that if they invest in Amazon stocks today, that almost guarantees that they will make a profit in a year. What happens when that fails? They mope, they suffer distress, etc. They didn't trust that the ultimate outcome is up to God. They lacked bitachon. Or, opposite, I'm sure you've seen shidduchim break off because someone found a minor flaw in the other and thought that was major to not make the marriage work. If they had a greater level of bitachon, and trusted that God decides the outcome, they might have continued the shidduch.
In summary, I think people really mean to say "My level of bitachon is not great; I need to work on that." It is, possible that they were referring to "emunah", but, as I explained, above, it seems that emunah doesn't have degrees or partiality.
answered Apr 22 at 22:37
DanFDanF
35.6k529138
Thanks for the response. I'm not understanding how the word "trust" relates to bitachon. Is there anybody that thinks God has a reason not to do what He usually does? Even after this distinction between emuna and bitachon I still have a hard time understanding how it's possible to have different levels of bitachon. How is it possible for you to believe someone always does something but not "trust" them that they will?
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 23:38
Chaim, I think you may be missing a significant nuance. A comparison may help. A son may believe that his father is the person who is responsible for his welfare. I.e., the son understands the role of his father to do that. However, he may not trust that his father will be there to care for him under all circumstances and every situation.
– DanF
Apr 23 at 1:14
add a comment |
Chaim, welcome to Mi Yodeya.
I am not overly familiar with the changing nuances of "yeshivish", so I can't say that this particular phrase is something that I have heard verbatim. But, in addressing the concept implied by your question, you may want to gain some clarity between two similar terms - bitachon and emunah.
There are numerous articles on this topic, but I think this summary from "The Shmuz" is good:
The Rambam defines emunah as the knowledge that HASHEM created and
continues to run all of Creation. Simply put, nothing can exist and no
activity can occur without HASHEM.
Bitachon, however, is a quite different. The Chovos Halevovos defines
bitachon as trusting in HASHEM. It is a sense of relying on HASHEM to
watch over and protect me, as if to say, “I take my heavy burden and
place it on HASHEM.” While I am responsible to be proactive, I am not
in charge of the outcome, and I am not the determinant of the results.
I rely on HASHEM to care for me.
Emunah is a state of understanding; bitachon is a state of trust.
Emunah means knowing that HASHEM is involved in every activity on the
planet; bitachon means trusting in HASHEM in every situation.
A person can have emunah and not bitachon
So, to clarify the expression that you've probably heard, you are correct in that either you have emunah or not. This is kind of an absolute degree of understanding and appreciation. Either you believe that God is responsible for everything that happens or not. You can't just believe that God is responsible for some things and not for others. The concept of emunah is that God is involved in everything. If you don't believe that, you have a lack of emunah. I think a heretic involved specific stronger action then just a lack of emunah. I.e. this doesn't deny that there is a God, and it doesn't mean that you convince others of the idea. It's that you think that some things, perhaps, happen by God, but not other things. A heretic denies that God is involved in anything at all.
Now bitachon - yes, there are definitely levels to this. We see this every day in numerous people. Many people believe that if they invest in Amazon stocks today, that almost guarantees that they will make a profit in a year. What happens when that fails? They mope, they suffer distress, etc. They didn't trust that the ultimate outcome is up to God. They lacked bitachon. Or, opposite, I'm sure you've seen shidduchim break off because someone found a minor flaw in the other and thought that was major to not make the marriage work. If they had a greater level of bitachon, and trusted that God decides the outcome, they might have continued the shidduch.
In summary, I think people really mean to say "My level of bitachon is not great; I need to work on that." It is, possible that they were referring to "emunah", but, as I explained, above, it seems that emunah doesn't have degrees or partiality.
answered Apr 22 at 22:37
DanFDanF
35.6k529138
Chaim, welcome to Mi Yodeya.
I am not overly familiar with the changing nuances of "yeshivish", so I can't say that this particular phrase is something that I have heard verbatim. But, in addressing the concept implied by your question, you may want to gain some clarity between two similar terms - bitachon and emunah.
There are numerous articles on this topic, but I think this summary from "The Shmuz" is good:
The Rambam defines emunah as the knowledge that HASHEM created and
continues to run all of Creation. Simply put, nothing can exist and no
activity can occur without HASHEM.
Bitachon, however, is a quite different. The Chovos Halevovos defines
bitachon as trusting in HASHEM. It is a sense of relying on HASHEM to
watch over and protect me, as if to say, “I take my heavy burden and
place it on HASHEM.” While I am responsible to be proactive, I am not
in charge of the outcome, and I am not the determinant of the results.
I rely on HASHEM to care for me.
Emunah is a state of understanding; bitachon is a state of trust.
Emunah means knowing that HASHEM is involved in every activity on the
planet; bitachon means trusting in HASHEM in every situation.
A person can have emunah and not bitachon
So, to clarify the expression that you've probably heard, you are correct in that either you have emunah or not. This is kind of an absolute degree of understanding and appreciation. Either you believe that God is responsible for everything that happens or not. You can't just believe that God is responsible for some things and not for others. The concept of emunah is that God is involved in everything. If you don't believe that, you have a lack of emunah. I think a heretic involved specific stronger action then just a lack of emunah. I.e. this doesn't deny that there is a God, and it doesn't mean that you convince others of the idea. It's that you think that some things, perhaps, happen by God, but not other things. A heretic denies that God is involved in anything at all.
Now bitachon - yes, there are definitely levels to this. We see this every day in numerous people. Many people believe that if they invest in Amazon stocks today, that almost guarantees that they will make a profit in a year. What happens when that fails? They mope, they suffer distress, etc. They didn't trust that the ultimate outcome is up to God. They lacked bitachon. Or, opposite, I'm sure you've seen shidduchim break off because someone found a minor flaw in the other and thought that was major to not make the marriage work. If they had a greater level of bitachon, and trusted that God decides the outcome, they might have continued the shidduch.
In summary, I think people really mean to say "My level of bitachon is not great; I need to work on that." It is, possible that they were referring to "emunah", but, as I explained, above, it seems that emunah doesn't have degrees or partiality.
answered Apr 22 at 22:37
DanFDanF
35.6k529138
answered Apr 22 at 22:37
DanFDanF
35.6k529138
answered Apr 22 at 22:37
DanFDanF
35.6k529138
answered Apr 22 at 22:37
DanFDanF
35.6k529138
35.6k529138
Thanks for the response. I'm not understanding how the word "trust" relates to bitachon. Is there anybody that thinks God has a reason not to do what He usually does? Even after this distinction between emuna and bitachon I still have a hard time understanding how it's possible to have different levels of bitachon. How is it possible for you to believe someone always does something but not "trust" them that they will?
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 23:38
Chaim, I think you may be missing a significant nuance. A comparison may help. A son may believe that his father is the person who is responsible for his welfare. I.e., the son understands the role of his father to do that. However, he may not trust that his father will be there to care for him under all circumstances and every situation.
– DanF
Apr 23 at 1:14
add a comment |
Thanks for the response. I'm not understanding how the word "trust" relates to bitachon. Is there anybody that thinks God has a reason not to do what He usually does? Even after this distinction between emuna and bitachon I still have a hard time understanding how it's possible to have different levels of bitachon. How is it possible for you to believe someone always does something but not "trust" them that they will?
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 23:38
Chaim, I think you may be missing a significant nuance. A comparison may help. A son may believe that his father is the person who is responsible for his welfare. I.e., the son understands the role of his father to do that. However, he may not trust that his father will be there to care for him under all circumstances and every situation.
– DanF
Apr 23 at 1:14
Thanks for the response. I'm not understanding how the word "trust" relates to bitachon. Is there anybody that thinks God has a reason not to do what He usually does? Even after this distinction between emuna and bitachon I still have a hard time understanding how it's possible to have different levels of bitachon. How is it possible for you to believe someone always does something but not "trust" them that they will?
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 23:38
Thanks for the response. I'm not understanding how the word "trust" relates to bitachon. Is there anybody that thinks God has a reason not to do what He usually does? Even after this distinction between emuna and bitachon I still have a hard time understanding how it's possible to have different levels of bitachon. How is it possible for you to believe someone always does something but not "trust" them that they will?
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 23:38
Chaim, I think you may be missing a significant nuance. A comparison may help. A son may believe that his father is the person who is responsible for his welfare. I.e., the son understands the role of his father to do that. However, he may not trust that his father will be there to care for him under all circumstances and every situation.
– DanF
Apr 23 at 1:14
Chaim, I think you may be missing a significant nuance. A comparison may help. A son may believe that his father is the person who is responsible for his welfare. I.e., the son understands the role of his father to do that. However, he may not trust that his father will be there to care for him under all circumstances and every situation.
– DanF
Apr 23 at 1:14
add a comment |
I'll give you an example: It is very clearly seen here in Jerusalem's HMOs when the residents of all kinds bring their kids to vaccinate. First, come the secular, then Kipah Sruga, then the Litvakes, then the Chassidishers and the last (but not least) the Yerushalmi. And some never come.
And we can rate them clearly according to their level of Bitachon in Hashem. So each previous group can say "I don't have that level of Bitachon of the next group ... to put my kids in danger".
answered Apr 22 at 23:21
Al BerkoAl Berko
6,8022529
Lol I was going to write vaccines as an example but I figured I'll stick away from the controversy
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 23:23
1
This stigma is not representative of the reality of the charedi community.
– kouty
2 days ago
1
It's also not a controversy. It's just objectively some idiots killing children. @chaim
– Double AA♦
2 days ago
@Double AA of course.
– kouty
2 days ago
add a comment |
I'll give you an example: It is very clearly seen here in Jerusalem's HMOs when the residents of all kinds bring their kids to vaccinate. First, come the secular, then Kipah Sruga, then the Litvakes, then the Chassidishers and the last (but not least) the Yerushalmi. And some never come.
And we can rate them clearly according to their level of Bitachon in Hashem. So each previous group can say "I don't have that level of Bitachon of the next group ... to put my kids in danger".
answered Apr 22 at 23:21
Al BerkoAl Berko
6,8022529
Lol I was going to write vaccines as an example but I figured I'll stick away from the controversy
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 23:23
1
This stigma is not representative of the reality of the charedi community.
– kouty
2 days ago
1
It's also not a controversy. It's just objectively some idiots killing children. @chaim
– Double AA♦
2 days ago
@Double AA of course.
– kouty
2 days ago
add a comment |
I'll give you an example: It is very clearly seen here in Jerusalem's HMOs when the residents of all kinds bring their kids to vaccinate. First, come the secular, then Kipah Sruga, then the Litvakes, then the Chassidishers and the last (but not least) the Yerushalmi. And some never come.
And we can rate them clearly according to their level of Bitachon in Hashem. So each previous group can say "I don't have that level of Bitachon of the next group ... to put my kids in danger".
answered Apr 22 at 23:21
Al BerkoAl Berko
6,8022529
I'll give you an example: It is very clearly seen here in Jerusalem's HMOs when the residents of all kinds bring their kids to vaccinate. First, come the secular, then Kipah Sruga, then the Litvakes, then the Chassidishers and the last (but not least) the Yerushalmi. And some never come.
And we can rate them clearly according to their level of Bitachon in Hashem. So each previous group can say "I don't have that level of Bitachon of the next group ... to put my kids in danger".
answered Apr 22 at 23:21
Al BerkoAl Berko
6,8022529
answered Apr 22 at 23:21
Al BerkoAl Berko
6,8022529
answered Apr 22 at 23:21
Al BerkoAl Berko
6,8022529
answered Apr 22 at 23:21
Al BerkoAl Berko
6,8022529
6,8022529
Lol I was going to write vaccines as an example but I figured I'll stick away from the controversy
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 23:23
1
This stigma is not representative of the reality of the charedi community.
– kouty
2 days ago
1
It's also not a controversy. It's just objectively some idiots killing children. @chaim
– Double AA♦
2 days ago
@Double AA of course.
– kouty
2 days ago
add a comment |
Lol I was going to write vaccines as an example but I figured I'll stick away from the controversy
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 23:23
1
This stigma is not representative of the reality of the charedi community.
– kouty
2 days ago
1
It's also not a controversy. It's just objectively some idiots killing children. @chaim
– Double AA♦
2 days ago
@Double AA of course.
– kouty
2 days ago
Lol I was going to write vaccines as an example but I figured I'll stick away from the controversy
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 23:23
Lol I was going to write vaccines as an example but I figured I'll stick away from the controversy
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 23:23
1
1
This stigma is not representative of the reality of the charedi community.
– kouty
2 days ago
This stigma is not representative of the reality of the charedi community.
– kouty
2 days ago
1
1
It's also not a controversy. It's just objectively some idiots killing children. @chaim
– Double AA♦
2 days ago
It's also not a controversy. It's just objectively some idiots killing children. @chaim
– Double AA♦
2 days ago
@Double AA of course.
– kouty
2 days ago
@Double AA of course.
– kouty
2 days ago
add a comment |
how do you know what is the proper amount of hishtadlus?
– michael
Apr 22 at 19:52
1
Not sure I've ever heard that said
– Double AA♦
Apr 22 at 19:57
@michael let's take an easy example. Winning a raffle. One ticket is enough hishtadlus. But ask someone if they would rather have 9 tickets in a 10:1 raffle.
– Chaim
Apr 22 at 19:59
@Chaim dont we have to work within the natural order of things?
– michael
2 days ago
1
@michael if you're referring to ain somchin al haness then yes we do. But buying one ticket isn't unnatural.
– Chaim
2 days ago