University's motivation for having tenure-track positions Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Is it more difficult to score a Tenure Track position in the US when applying from outside?Leaving soft-money job for tenure track position that doesn't start until August: when to tell current advisor?What do I need to include in a tenure-track assistant professor job application cover letter?Research on career path after tenure denial?How to make good use of a small startup fund?Breaking into research oriented tenure-track positions from teaching trackTenure-track offer with other applications in progressI am non-tenured and have been offered a tenure-track position at my current university, but I don't want to stay here long term. What should I do?How is a tenure-track appointment in Sweden?What reference from current insitution is required/advisable for pre-tenure move?

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University's motivation for having tenure-track positions



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Is it more difficult to score a Tenure Track position in the US when applying from outside?Leaving soft-money job for tenure track position that doesn't start until August: when to tell current advisor?What do I need to include in a tenure-track assistant professor job application cover letter?Research on career path after tenure denial?How to make good use of a small startup fund?Breaking into research oriented tenure-track positions from teaching trackTenure-track offer with other applications in progressI am non-tenured and have been offered a tenure-track position at my current university, but I don't want to stay here long term. What should I do?How is a tenure-track appointment in Sweden?What reference from current insitution is required/advisable for pre-tenure move?










15















Suppose I used to hold a tenure-track math position at a R1 institution, but then I was denied tenure. Assume I do not care about job security (and never cared) and I would be more than happy to keep working under the same conditions and would work just as hard as I worked before tenure denial. The question is: what are the reasons why the department would not be happy to keep me (under the same conditions)?



Some hypotheses:



  • Me working at the department is beneficial for the department at any given point of time. If this is true, then they should be OK with me remaining in my present position.

  • Accepting someone for tenure-track is a calculated risk the department takes (because it can not judge purely from the post-doc record whether one is going to be a great researcher or not). Now that my tenure-track is over, they have figured out that I am not good enough and it is beneficial for them to kick me out.

  • For an average person, the possibility of tenure is a strong motivator. It is beneficial for the department to have someone who has been promised tenure at any given point of time but it is not beneficial once the person knows they won't be given tenure. I am just a weirdo who happens not to care.









share|improve this question







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  • 1





    I think the answer is the second hypothesis, but I will leave it to one of the more senior faculty here to weigh in...

    – Dawn
    2 days ago






  • 2





    In the situation you described, even if the department were happy to keep you as an untenured faculty member, they couldn't do so. In my university, the Regents' Bylaws say that, if we kept a tenure-track assistant professor in that position longer than 7 years, then (s)he would automatically have tenure, whether or not tenure was "awarded". (Department and college administrators whose negligence led to such "de facto tenure" would be in very hot water.)

    – Andreas Blass
    2 days ago






  • 20





    I think you're missing opportunity cost. Suppose they had a choice between keeping you at your current salary, and firing you and hiring someone new at the same salary (or likely less). You've already demonstrated that you do not meet the standards expected of a tenured faculty member. The new person might eventually do so. Doesn't that seem like an easy decision?

    – Nate Eldredge
    2 days ago






  • 7





    Just out of curiosity, you were an assistant professor in math at Harvard and this is an honest question you had?

    – user2705196
    2 days ago






  • 5





    There's a paradox here. Quoting: "Assume I do not care about job security (and never cared)" and "why the department would not be happy to keep me".

    – Szabolcs
    yesterday















15















Suppose I used to hold a tenure-track math position at a R1 institution, but then I was denied tenure. Assume I do not care about job security (and never cared) and I would be more than happy to keep working under the same conditions and would work just as hard as I worked before tenure denial. The question is: what are the reasons why the department would not be happy to keep me (under the same conditions)?



Some hypotheses:



  • Me working at the department is beneficial for the department at any given point of time. If this is true, then they should be OK with me remaining in my present position.

  • Accepting someone for tenure-track is a calculated risk the department takes (because it can not judge purely from the post-doc record whether one is going to be a great researcher or not). Now that my tenure-track is over, they have figured out that I am not good enough and it is beneficial for them to kick me out.

  • For an average person, the possibility of tenure is a strong motivator. It is beneficial for the department to have someone who has been promised tenure at any given point of time but it is not beneficial once the person knows they won't be given tenure. I am just a weirdo who happens not to care.









share|improve this question







New contributor




bye_bye_harvard is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.















  • 1





    I think the answer is the second hypothesis, but I will leave it to one of the more senior faculty here to weigh in...

    – Dawn
    2 days ago






  • 2





    In the situation you described, even if the department were happy to keep you as an untenured faculty member, they couldn't do so. In my university, the Regents' Bylaws say that, if we kept a tenure-track assistant professor in that position longer than 7 years, then (s)he would automatically have tenure, whether or not tenure was "awarded". (Department and college administrators whose negligence led to such "de facto tenure" would be in very hot water.)

    – Andreas Blass
    2 days ago






  • 20





    I think you're missing opportunity cost. Suppose they had a choice between keeping you at your current salary, and firing you and hiring someone new at the same salary (or likely less). You've already demonstrated that you do not meet the standards expected of a tenured faculty member. The new person might eventually do so. Doesn't that seem like an easy decision?

    – Nate Eldredge
    2 days ago






  • 7





    Just out of curiosity, you were an assistant professor in math at Harvard and this is an honest question you had?

    – user2705196
    2 days ago






  • 5





    There's a paradox here. Quoting: "Assume I do not care about job security (and never cared)" and "why the department would not be happy to keep me".

    – Szabolcs
    yesterday













15












15








15


1






Suppose I used to hold a tenure-track math position at a R1 institution, but then I was denied tenure. Assume I do not care about job security (and never cared) and I would be more than happy to keep working under the same conditions and would work just as hard as I worked before tenure denial. The question is: what are the reasons why the department would not be happy to keep me (under the same conditions)?



Some hypotheses:



  • Me working at the department is beneficial for the department at any given point of time. If this is true, then they should be OK with me remaining in my present position.

  • Accepting someone for tenure-track is a calculated risk the department takes (because it can not judge purely from the post-doc record whether one is going to be a great researcher or not). Now that my tenure-track is over, they have figured out that I am not good enough and it is beneficial for them to kick me out.

  • For an average person, the possibility of tenure is a strong motivator. It is beneficial for the department to have someone who has been promised tenure at any given point of time but it is not beneficial once the person knows they won't be given tenure. I am just a weirdo who happens not to care.









share|improve this question







New contributor




bye_bye_harvard is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












Suppose I used to hold a tenure-track math position at a R1 institution, but then I was denied tenure. Assume I do not care about job security (and never cared) and I would be more than happy to keep working under the same conditions and would work just as hard as I worked before tenure denial. The question is: what are the reasons why the department would not be happy to keep me (under the same conditions)?



Some hypotheses:



  • Me working at the department is beneficial for the department at any given point of time. If this is true, then they should be OK with me remaining in my present position.

  • Accepting someone for tenure-track is a calculated risk the department takes (because it can not judge purely from the post-doc record whether one is going to be a great researcher or not). Now that my tenure-track is over, they have figured out that I am not good enough and it is beneficial for them to kick me out.

  • For an average person, the possibility of tenure is a strong motivator. It is beneficial for the department to have someone who has been promised tenure at any given point of time but it is not beneficial once the person knows they won't be given tenure. I am just a weirdo who happens not to care.






mathematics tenure-track






share|improve this question







New contributor




bye_bye_harvard is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question







New contributor




bye_bye_harvard is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question






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asked 2 days ago









bye_bye_harvardbye_bye_harvard

823




823




New contributor




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New contributor





bye_bye_harvard is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






bye_bye_harvard is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







  • 1





    I think the answer is the second hypothesis, but I will leave it to one of the more senior faculty here to weigh in...

    – Dawn
    2 days ago






  • 2





    In the situation you described, even if the department were happy to keep you as an untenured faculty member, they couldn't do so. In my university, the Regents' Bylaws say that, if we kept a tenure-track assistant professor in that position longer than 7 years, then (s)he would automatically have tenure, whether or not tenure was "awarded". (Department and college administrators whose negligence led to such "de facto tenure" would be in very hot water.)

    – Andreas Blass
    2 days ago






  • 20





    I think you're missing opportunity cost. Suppose they had a choice between keeping you at your current salary, and firing you and hiring someone new at the same salary (or likely less). You've already demonstrated that you do not meet the standards expected of a tenured faculty member. The new person might eventually do so. Doesn't that seem like an easy decision?

    – Nate Eldredge
    2 days ago






  • 7





    Just out of curiosity, you were an assistant professor in math at Harvard and this is an honest question you had?

    – user2705196
    2 days ago






  • 5





    There's a paradox here. Quoting: "Assume I do not care about job security (and never cared)" and "why the department would not be happy to keep me".

    – Szabolcs
    yesterday












  • 1





    I think the answer is the second hypothesis, but I will leave it to one of the more senior faculty here to weigh in...

    – Dawn
    2 days ago






  • 2





    In the situation you described, even if the department were happy to keep you as an untenured faculty member, they couldn't do so. In my university, the Regents' Bylaws say that, if we kept a tenure-track assistant professor in that position longer than 7 years, then (s)he would automatically have tenure, whether or not tenure was "awarded". (Department and college administrators whose negligence led to such "de facto tenure" would be in very hot water.)

    – Andreas Blass
    2 days ago






  • 20





    I think you're missing opportunity cost. Suppose they had a choice between keeping you at your current salary, and firing you and hiring someone new at the same salary (or likely less). You've already demonstrated that you do not meet the standards expected of a tenured faculty member. The new person might eventually do so. Doesn't that seem like an easy decision?

    – Nate Eldredge
    2 days ago






  • 7





    Just out of curiosity, you were an assistant professor in math at Harvard and this is an honest question you had?

    – user2705196
    2 days ago






  • 5





    There's a paradox here. Quoting: "Assume I do not care about job security (and never cared)" and "why the department would not be happy to keep me".

    – Szabolcs
    yesterday







1




1





I think the answer is the second hypothesis, but I will leave it to one of the more senior faculty here to weigh in...

– Dawn
2 days ago





I think the answer is the second hypothesis, but I will leave it to one of the more senior faculty here to weigh in...

– Dawn
2 days ago




2




2





In the situation you described, even if the department were happy to keep you as an untenured faculty member, they couldn't do so. In my university, the Regents' Bylaws say that, if we kept a tenure-track assistant professor in that position longer than 7 years, then (s)he would automatically have tenure, whether or not tenure was "awarded". (Department and college administrators whose negligence led to such "de facto tenure" would be in very hot water.)

– Andreas Blass
2 days ago





In the situation you described, even if the department were happy to keep you as an untenured faculty member, they couldn't do so. In my university, the Regents' Bylaws say that, if we kept a tenure-track assistant professor in that position longer than 7 years, then (s)he would automatically have tenure, whether or not tenure was "awarded". (Department and college administrators whose negligence led to such "de facto tenure" would be in very hot water.)

– Andreas Blass
2 days ago




20




20





I think you're missing opportunity cost. Suppose they had a choice between keeping you at your current salary, and firing you and hiring someone new at the same salary (or likely less). You've already demonstrated that you do not meet the standards expected of a tenured faculty member. The new person might eventually do so. Doesn't that seem like an easy decision?

– Nate Eldredge
2 days ago





I think you're missing opportunity cost. Suppose they had a choice between keeping you at your current salary, and firing you and hiring someone new at the same salary (or likely less). You've already demonstrated that you do not meet the standards expected of a tenured faculty member. The new person might eventually do so. Doesn't that seem like an easy decision?

– Nate Eldredge
2 days ago




7




7





Just out of curiosity, you were an assistant professor in math at Harvard and this is an honest question you had?

– user2705196
2 days ago





Just out of curiosity, you were an assistant professor in math at Harvard and this is an honest question you had?

– user2705196
2 days ago




5




5





There's a paradox here. Quoting: "Assume I do not care about job security (and never cared)" and "why the department would not be happy to keep me".

– Szabolcs
yesterday





There's a paradox here. Quoting: "Assume I do not care about job security (and never cared)" and "why the department would not be happy to keep me".

– Szabolcs
yesterday










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















19














In most jobs in industry, new employees go through a probationary period during which they can be let go (fired) for poor performance without the protections and benefits that more experienced employees might get. If a new employee isn't working out, then they'll be let go during this probationary period.



In higher education in the US, the (customarily at most 7 years long) tenure track is an extremely long probationary period tied with policies that (in the name of academic freedom) give tenured faculty very strong protection against being fired or laid off.



When a tenure-track professor is denied tenure, the university has decided that they're not doing well enough in the job to justify a lifetime commitment from the institution. There are significant costs associated with recruiting a replacement, as well as significant consequences for the morale of other junior faculty, so these decisions aren't made lightly.



Allowing a tenure track faculty member to continue as non-tenured faculty member after you've denied them tenure has problems. In addition to lowering the morale of other tenured and tenure-track faculty, it runs afoul of the guidelines for tenure promulgated by the American Association of Union Professors (AAUP) that say that tenure must be granted after seven years of service.



It should be noted that the tenure system is in a significant decline in the US. More and more, teaching and research work is being done by people in non-tenure-track positions and the number of tenured faculty is declining.






share|improve this answer


















  • 2





    thank you for your answer. So the answer is essentially "There is pressure from the society to give tenure to people who have worked for the department for 7 years." Do I understand correctly?

    – bye_bye_harvard
    2 days ago






  • 2





    The tenure system is something that was created and maintained by universities and their faculty. I don’t think that the rest of society has had much to say about it, although some politicians have certainly argued that it should be abolished.

    – Brian Borchers
    2 days ago











  • I interpret this as "At some universities, local employment laws and/or university policies require giving tenure to anyone who works for the university for 7 years."

    – JeffE
    yesterday



















6














It is a strategy to avoid the Peter Principle, similar to the military's up-or-out policy.



In particular, there are only so many slots for professors (tenured or otherwise). They want to allocate those slots to the best candidates as possible. Mathematically, there is some quality threshold Q', and they want to give only to candidates with Q > Q'. Now if your Q is less than Q', letting you go will allow them to bring in someone else whose quality may be greater than Q', which improves the department (or your replacement may also have Q < Q', in which case they'll get let go also and try again). In other words -- by not offering tenure, the university is taking the gamble that they can find someone better to fill the spot long-term.



Further, I suspect it is also true that Q is not static, but changes (decreases) after a tenure decision is made.






share|improve this answer
































    2














    There might be exceptions to this but in general universities have rules that faculty can only be employed without tenure for a number of years, so you can only stay for so long after being denied tenure.



    It is also true that many times the denial of tenure is not meant to "fire" you, but to say "you are not ready". I know several cases where the denial of tenure included "you are not ready" language, and clearly implied that the candidate would apply for tenure again.



    As others have mentioned, these decisions are not taken lightly, and there are usually avenues for appeal.






    share|improve this answer























    • the candidate would apply for tenure again — In most American universities, a candidate can only apply for tenure again if the first application for tenure was early—at least a year before the (usually 6th year) deadline— and early tenure applications are discouraged and rare.

      – JeffE
      yesterday











    • I don't doubt that's the case. But I also know several where it is fairly standard to apply for tenure by the fourth year, and the rules allow for six.

      – Martin Argerami
      yesterday


















    2














    It benefits the department to have more tenured faculty. The dean cares about nothing except the budget, and wishes the entire faculty were adjuncts. I know of a case where the dean, who was trained as an engineer, decided that the only useful math was applied math and decimated the math department, which then created a war between the math department and the dean, who then re-decimated the department. Half the math faculty were tenured, and that was the only way a (sort of) viable math department survived.



    The war on tenure has been brutal, and we're losing. If your department kept you, that's another foot of lost ground.






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      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes








      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      19














      In most jobs in industry, new employees go through a probationary period during which they can be let go (fired) for poor performance without the protections and benefits that more experienced employees might get. If a new employee isn't working out, then they'll be let go during this probationary period.



      In higher education in the US, the (customarily at most 7 years long) tenure track is an extremely long probationary period tied with policies that (in the name of academic freedom) give tenured faculty very strong protection against being fired or laid off.



      When a tenure-track professor is denied tenure, the university has decided that they're not doing well enough in the job to justify a lifetime commitment from the institution. There are significant costs associated with recruiting a replacement, as well as significant consequences for the morale of other junior faculty, so these decisions aren't made lightly.



      Allowing a tenure track faculty member to continue as non-tenured faculty member after you've denied them tenure has problems. In addition to lowering the morale of other tenured and tenure-track faculty, it runs afoul of the guidelines for tenure promulgated by the American Association of Union Professors (AAUP) that say that tenure must be granted after seven years of service.



      It should be noted that the tenure system is in a significant decline in the US. More and more, teaching and research work is being done by people in non-tenure-track positions and the number of tenured faculty is declining.






      share|improve this answer


















      • 2





        thank you for your answer. So the answer is essentially "There is pressure from the society to give tenure to people who have worked for the department for 7 years." Do I understand correctly?

        – bye_bye_harvard
        2 days ago






      • 2





        The tenure system is something that was created and maintained by universities and their faculty. I don’t think that the rest of society has had much to say about it, although some politicians have certainly argued that it should be abolished.

        – Brian Borchers
        2 days ago











      • I interpret this as "At some universities, local employment laws and/or university policies require giving tenure to anyone who works for the university for 7 years."

        – JeffE
        yesterday
















      19














      In most jobs in industry, new employees go through a probationary period during which they can be let go (fired) for poor performance without the protections and benefits that more experienced employees might get. If a new employee isn't working out, then they'll be let go during this probationary period.



      In higher education in the US, the (customarily at most 7 years long) tenure track is an extremely long probationary period tied with policies that (in the name of academic freedom) give tenured faculty very strong protection against being fired or laid off.



      When a tenure-track professor is denied tenure, the university has decided that they're not doing well enough in the job to justify a lifetime commitment from the institution. There are significant costs associated with recruiting a replacement, as well as significant consequences for the morale of other junior faculty, so these decisions aren't made lightly.



      Allowing a tenure track faculty member to continue as non-tenured faculty member after you've denied them tenure has problems. In addition to lowering the morale of other tenured and tenure-track faculty, it runs afoul of the guidelines for tenure promulgated by the American Association of Union Professors (AAUP) that say that tenure must be granted after seven years of service.



      It should be noted that the tenure system is in a significant decline in the US. More and more, teaching and research work is being done by people in non-tenure-track positions and the number of tenured faculty is declining.






      share|improve this answer


















      • 2





        thank you for your answer. So the answer is essentially "There is pressure from the society to give tenure to people who have worked for the department for 7 years." Do I understand correctly?

        – bye_bye_harvard
        2 days ago






      • 2





        The tenure system is something that was created and maintained by universities and their faculty. I don’t think that the rest of society has had much to say about it, although some politicians have certainly argued that it should be abolished.

        – Brian Borchers
        2 days ago











      • I interpret this as "At some universities, local employment laws and/or university policies require giving tenure to anyone who works for the university for 7 years."

        – JeffE
        yesterday














      19












      19








      19







      In most jobs in industry, new employees go through a probationary period during which they can be let go (fired) for poor performance without the protections and benefits that more experienced employees might get. If a new employee isn't working out, then they'll be let go during this probationary period.



      In higher education in the US, the (customarily at most 7 years long) tenure track is an extremely long probationary period tied with policies that (in the name of academic freedom) give tenured faculty very strong protection against being fired or laid off.



      When a tenure-track professor is denied tenure, the university has decided that they're not doing well enough in the job to justify a lifetime commitment from the institution. There are significant costs associated with recruiting a replacement, as well as significant consequences for the morale of other junior faculty, so these decisions aren't made lightly.



      Allowing a tenure track faculty member to continue as non-tenured faculty member after you've denied them tenure has problems. In addition to lowering the morale of other tenured and tenure-track faculty, it runs afoul of the guidelines for tenure promulgated by the American Association of Union Professors (AAUP) that say that tenure must be granted after seven years of service.



      It should be noted that the tenure system is in a significant decline in the US. More and more, teaching and research work is being done by people in non-tenure-track positions and the number of tenured faculty is declining.






      share|improve this answer













      In most jobs in industry, new employees go through a probationary period during which they can be let go (fired) for poor performance without the protections and benefits that more experienced employees might get. If a new employee isn't working out, then they'll be let go during this probationary period.



      In higher education in the US, the (customarily at most 7 years long) tenure track is an extremely long probationary period tied with policies that (in the name of academic freedom) give tenured faculty very strong protection against being fired or laid off.



      When a tenure-track professor is denied tenure, the university has decided that they're not doing well enough in the job to justify a lifetime commitment from the institution. There are significant costs associated with recruiting a replacement, as well as significant consequences for the morale of other junior faculty, so these decisions aren't made lightly.



      Allowing a tenure track faculty member to continue as non-tenured faculty member after you've denied them tenure has problems. In addition to lowering the morale of other tenured and tenure-track faculty, it runs afoul of the guidelines for tenure promulgated by the American Association of Union Professors (AAUP) that say that tenure must be granted after seven years of service.



      It should be noted that the tenure system is in a significant decline in the US. More and more, teaching and research work is being done by people in non-tenure-track positions and the number of tenured faculty is declining.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 2 days ago









      Brian BorchersBrian Borchers

      29.5k353108




      29.5k353108







      • 2





        thank you for your answer. So the answer is essentially "There is pressure from the society to give tenure to people who have worked for the department for 7 years." Do I understand correctly?

        – bye_bye_harvard
        2 days ago






      • 2





        The tenure system is something that was created and maintained by universities and their faculty. I don’t think that the rest of society has had much to say about it, although some politicians have certainly argued that it should be abolished.

        – Brian Borchers
        2 days ago











      • I interpret this as "At some universities, local employment laws and/or university policies require giving tenure to anyone who works for the university for 7 years."

        – JeffE
        yesterday













      • 2





        thank you for your answer. So the answer is essentially "There is pressure from the society to give tenure to people who have worked for the department for 7 years." Do I understand correctly?

        – bye_bye_harvard
        2 days ago






      • 2





        The tenure system is something that was created and maintained by universities and their faculty. I don’t think that the rest of society has had much to say about it, although some politicians have certainly argued that it should be abolished.

        – Brian Borchers
        2 days ago











      • I interpret this as "At some universities, local employment laws and/or university policies require giving tenure to anyone who works for the university for 7 years."

        – JeffE
        yesterday








      2




      2





      thank you for your answer. So the answer is essentially "There is pressure from the society to give tenure to people who have worked for the department for 7 years." Do I understand correctly?

      – bye_bye_harvard
      2 days ago





      thank you for your answer. So the answer is essentially "There is pressure from the society to give tenure to people who have worked for the department for 7 years." Do I understand correctly?

      – bye_bye_harvard
      2 days ago




      2




      2





      The tenure system is something that was created and maintained by universities and their faculty. I don’t think that the rest of society has had much to say about it, although some politicians have certainly argued that it should be abolished.

      – Brian Borchers
      2 days ago





      The tenure system is something that was created and maintained by universities and their faculty. I don’t think that the rest of society has had much to say about it, although some politicians have certainly argued that it should be abolished.

      – Brian Borchers
      2 days ago













      I interpret this as "At some universities, local employment laws and/or university policies require giving tenure to anyone who works for the university for 7 years."

      – JeffE
      yesterday






      I interpret this as "At some universities, local employment laws and/or university policies require giving tenure to anyone who works for the university for 7 years."

      – JeffE
      yesterday












      6














      It is a strategy to avoid the Peter Principle, similar to the military's up-or-out policy.



      In particular, there are only so many slots for professors (tenured or otherwise). They want to allocate those slots to the best candidates as possible. Mathematically, there is some quality threshold Q', and they want to give only to candidates with Q > Q'. Now if your Q is less than Q', letting you go will allow them to bring in someone else whose quality may be greater than Q', which improves the department (or your replacement may also have Q < Q', in which case they'll get let go also and try again). In other words -- by not offering tenure, the university is taking the gamble that they can find someone better to fill the spot long-term.



      Further, I suspect it is also true that Q is not static, but changes (decreases) after a tenure decision is made.






      share|improve this answer





























        6














        It is a strategy to avoid the Peter Principle, similar to the military's up-or-out policy.



        In particular, there are only so many slots for professors (tenured or otherwise). They want to allocate those slots to the best candidates as possible. Mathematically, there is some quality threshold Q', and they want to give only to candidates with Q > Q'. Now if your Q is less than Q', letting you go will allow them to bring in someone else whose quality may be greater than Q', which improves the department (or your replacement may also have Q < Q', in which case they'll get let go also and try again). In other words -- by not offering tenure, the university is taking the gamble that they can find someone better to fill the spot long-term.



        Further, I suspect it is also true that Q is not static, but changes (decreases) after a tenure decision is made.






        share|improve this answer



























          6












          6








          6







          It is a strategy to avoid the Peter Principle, similar to the military's up-or-out policy.



          In particular, there are only so many slots for professors (tenured or otherwise). They want to allocate those slots to the best candidates as possible. Mathematically, there is some quality threshold Q', and they want to give only to candidates with Q > Q'. Now if your Q is less than Q', letting you go will allow them to bring in someone else whose quality may be greater than Q', which improves the department (or your replacement may also have Q < Q', in which case they'll get let go also and try again). In other words -- by not offering tenure, the university is taking the gamble that they can find someone better to fill the spot long-term.



          Further, I suspect it is also true that Q is not static, but changes (decreases) after a tenure decision is made.






          share|improve this answer















          It is a strategy to avoid the Peter Principle, similar to the military's up-or-out policy.



          In particular, there are only so many slots for professors (tenured or otherwise). They want to allocate those slots to the best candidates as possible. Mathematically, there is some quality threshold Q', and they want to give only to candidates with Q > Q'. Now if your Q is less than Q', letting you go will allow them to bring in someone else whose quality may be greater than Q', which improves the department (or your replacement may also have Q < Q', in which case they'll get let go also and try again). In other words -- by not offering tenure, the university is taking the gamble that they can find someone better to fill the spot long-term.



          Further, I suspect it is also true that Q is not static, but changes (decreases) after a tenure decision is made.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 2 days ago

























          answered 2 days ago









          cag51cag51

          18.6k93870




          18.6k93870





















              2














              There might be exceptions to this but in general universities have rules that faculty can only be employed without tenure for a number of years, so you can only stay for so long after being denied tenure.



              It is also true that many times the denial of tenure is not meant to "fire" you, but to say "you are not ready". I know several cases where the denial of tenure included "you are not ready" language, and clearly implied that the candidate would apply for tenure again.



              As others have mentioned, these decisions are not taken lightly, and there are usually avenues for appeal.






              share|improve this answer























              • the candidate would apply for tenure again — In most American universities, a candidate can only apply for tenure again if the first application for tenure was early—at least a year before the (usually 6th year) deadline— and early tenure applications are discouraged and rare.

                – JeffE
                yesterday











              • I don't doubt that's the case. But I also know several where it is fairly standard to apply for tenure by the fourth year, and the rules allow for six.

                – Martin Argerami
                yesterday















              2














              There might be exceptions to this but in general universities have rules that faculty can only be employed without tenure for a number of years, so you can only stay for so long after being denied tenure.



              It is also true that many times the denial of tenure is not meant to "fire" you, but to say "you are not ready". I know several cases where the denial of tenure included "you are not ready" language, and clearly implied that the candidate would apply for tenure again.



              As others have mentioned, these decisions are not taken lightly, and there are usually avenues for appeal.






              share|improve this answer























              • the candidate would apply for tenure again — In most American universities, a candidate can only apply for tenure again if the first application for tenure was early—at least a year before the (usually 6th year) deadline— and early tenure applications are discouraged and rare.

                – JeffE
                yesterday











              • I don't doubt that's the case. But I also know several where it is fairly standard to apply for tenure by the fourth year, and the rules allow for six.

                – Martin Argerami
                yesterday













              2












              2








              2







              There might be exceptions to this but in general universities have rules that faculty can only be employed without tenure for a number of years, so you can only stay for so long after being denied tenure.



              It is also true that many times the denial of tenure is not meant to "fire" you, but to say "you are not ready". I know several cases where the denial of tenure included "you are not ready" language, and clearly implied that the candidate would apply for tenure again.



              As others have mentioned, these decisions are not taken lightly, and there are usually avenues for appeal.






              share|improve this answer













              There might be exceptions to this but in general universities have rules that faculty can only be employed without tenure for a number of years, so you can only stay for so long after being denied tenure.



              It is also true that many times the denial of tenure is not meant to "fire" you, but to say "you are not ready". I know several cases where the denial of tenure included "you are not ready" language, and clearly implied that the candidate would apply for tenure again.



              As others have mentioned, these decisions are not taken lightly, and there are usually avenues for appeal.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered yesterday









              Martin ArgeramiMartin Argerami

              3,4731421




              3,4731421












              • the candidate would apply for tenure again — In most American universities, a candidate can only apply for tenure again if the first application for tenure was early—at least a year before the (usually 6th year) deadline— and early tenure applications are discouraged and rare.

                – JeffE
                yesterday











              • I don't doubt that's the case. But I also know several where it is fairly standard to apply for tenure by the fourth year, and the rules allow for six.

                – Martin Argerami
                yesterday

















              • the candidate would apply for tenure again — In most American universities, a candidate can only apply for tenure again if the first application for tenure was early—at least a year before the (usually 6th year) deadline— and early tenure applications are discouraged and rare.

                – JeffE
                yesterday











              • I don't doubt that's the case. But I also know several where it is fairly standard to apply for tenure by the fourth year, and the rules allow for six.

                – Martin Argerami
                yesterday
















              the candidate would apply for tenure again — In most American universities, a candidate can only apply for tenure again if the first application for tenure was early—at least a year before the (usually 6th year) deadline— and early tenure applications are discouraged and rare.

              – JeffE
              yesterday





              the candidate would apply for tenure again — In most American universities, a candidate can only apply for tenure again if the first application for tenure was early—at least a year before the (usually 6th year) deadline— and early tenure applications are discouraged and rare.

              – JeffE
              yesterday













              I don't doubt that's the case. But I also know several where it is fairly standard to apply for tenure by the fourth year, and the rules allow for six.

              – Martin Argerami
              yesterday





              I don't doubt that's the case. But I also know several where it is fairly standard to apply for tenure by the fourth year, and the rules allow for six.

              – Martin Argerami
              yesterday











              2














              It benefits the department to have more tenured faculty. The dean cares about nothing except the budget, and wishes the entire faculty were adjuncts. I know of a case where the dean, who was trained as an engineer, decided that the only useful math was applied math and decimated the math department, which then created a war between the math department and the dean, who then re-decimated the department. Half the math faculty were tenured, and that was the only way a (sort of) viable math department survived.



              The war on tenure has been brutal, and we're losing. If your department kept you, that's another foot of lost ground.






              share|improve this answer



























                2














                It benefits the department to have more tenured faculty. The dean cares about nothing except the budget, and wishes the entire faculty were adjuncts. I know of a case where the dean, who was trained as an engineer, decided that the only useful math was applied math and decimated the math department, which then created a war between the math department and the dean, who then re-decimated the department. Half the math faculty were tenured, and that was the only way a (sort of) viable math department survived.



                The war on tenure has been brutal, and we're losing. If your department kept you, that's another foot of lost ground.






                share|improve this answer

























                  2












                  2








                  2







                  It benefits the department to have more tenured faculty. The dean cares about nothing except the budget, and wishes the entire faculty were adjuncts. I know of a case where the dean, who was trained as an engineer, decided that the only useful math was applied math and decimated the math department, which then created a war between the math department and the dean, who then re-decimated the department. Half the math faculty were tenured, and that was the only way a (sort of) viable math department survived.



                  The war on tenure has been brutal, and we're losing. If your department kept you, that's another foot of lost ground.






                  share|improve this answer













                  It benefits the department to have more tenured faculty. The dean cares about nothing except the budget, and wishes the entire faculty were adjuncts. I know of a case where the dean, who was trained as an engineer, decided that the only useful math was applied math and decimated the math department, which then created a war between the math department and the dean, who then re-decimated the department. Half the math faculty were tenured, and that was the only way a (sort of) viable math department survived.



                  The war on tenure has been brutal, and we're losing. If your department kept you, that's another foot of lost ground.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered yesterday









                  B. GoddardB. Goddard

                  5,04421118




                  5,04421118




















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