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Origins of the “array like” strings in BASIC
Is it possible to crash the Apple II using only the Apple II Basic REPL?What early computers had excellent BASIC (or other language) at bootup?Looking for a specific BASIC music program from the 80sHow to use BASIC after “LOAD ”$",8 on the C64Was the design of MS-BASIC for 6502 based on MS-BASIC for 8080?Understanding INKEY$ in ZX BASICUptime in ZX BASICEarly Basic memory managementDecoding the Workings of the TRS-80 BASIC Game “Escape!”Was Vilnius BASIC cross-platform?
A number of early microcomputer BASICs had 'array like strings' that were unlike MS's system and instead behaved like arrays of char. Substrings were accessed using a syntax like:
A$ = B$(1,5)
as opposed to the MS style:
A$ = LEFT$(B$,4)
Note the potential off-by-one.
I know that some minicomputer BASICs also worked this way, I believe HP and Nova were the canonical examples. North Star BASIC also used this style, and I suspect, due to its origins, that Cromenco Extended BASIC did as well.
So the question: does anyone know the first microcomputer BASIC that used this style of string notation? And wider, where this style originated?
basic
edited May 8 at 20:45
Stephen Kitt
43.1k8178183
asked May 8 at 11:27
Maury MarkowitzMaury Markowitz
3,138628
|
show 2 more comments
A number of early microcomputer BASICs had 'array like strings' that were unlike MS's system and instead behaved like arrays of char. Substrings were accessed using a syntax like:
A$ = B$(1,5)
as opposed to the MS style:
A$ = LEFT$(B$,4)
Note the potential off-by-one.
I know that some minicomputer BASICs also worked this way, I believe HP and Nova were the canonical examples. North Star BASIC also used this style, and I suspect, due to its origins, that Cromenco Extended BASIC did as well.
So the question: does anyone know the first microcomputer BASIC that used this style of string notation? And wider, where this style originated?
basic
edited May 8 at 20:45
Stephen Kitt
43.1k8178183
asked May 8 at 11:27
Maury MarkowitzMaury Markowitz
3,138628
2
Why and how are you distinguishing micros from minis? A given BASIC could be made to run on either.
– Wilson
May 8 at 11:32
1
HT2000 Basic worked as described; any microcomputer BASICs probably derived such behavior from the HP.
– supercat
May 8 at 11:46
2
For reference, both approaches seem to be revisionist treatments :-). BASIC comes from Dartmouth. 4th edition BASIC had the CHANGE statement to convert between a string variable and an array of ASCII character-codes..
– another-dave
May 8 at 12:01
I do however think I used the LEFT$/RIGHT$ syntax around 1971, dialed in to the UK Open University computer system (I had a maths teacher doing an OU degree in computer science), which I think was running on some HP mini.
– another-dave
May 8 at 12:06
@another-dave I don’t know much about minis, butLEFT$seems to have appeared on micros early on; 8K Altair BASIC had it in 1975.
– Stephen Kitt
May 8 at 12:17
|
show 2 more comments
A number of early microcomputer BASICs had 'array like strings' that were unlike MS's system and instead behaved like arrays of char. Substrings were accessed using a syntax like:
A$ = B$(1,5)
as opposed to the MS style:
A$ = LEFT$(B$,4)
Note the potential off-by-one.
I know that some minicomputer BASICs also worked this way, I believe HP and Nova were the canonical examples. North Star BASIC also used this style, and I suspect, due to its origins, that Cromenco Extended BASIC did as well.
So the question: does anyone know the first microcomputer BASIC that used this style of string notation? And wider, where this style originated?
basic
edited May 8 at 20:45
Stephen Kitt
43.1k8178183
asked May 8 at 11:27
Maury MarkowitzMaury Markowitz
3,138628
A number of early microcomputer BASICs had 'array like strings' that were unlike MS's system and instead behaved like arrays of char. Substrings were accessed using a syntax like:
A$ = B$(1,5)
as opposed to the MS style:
A$ = LEFT$(B$,4)
Note the potential off-by-one.
I know that some minicomputer BASICs also worked this way, I believe HP and Nova were the canonical examples. North Star BASIC also used this style, and I suspect, due to its origins, that Cromenco Extended BASIC did as well.
So the question: does anyone know the first microcomputer BASIC that used this style of string notation? And wider, where this style originated?
basic
basic
edited May 8 at 20:45
Stephen Kitt
43.1k8178183
asked May 8 at 11:27
Maury MarkowitzMaury Markowitz
3,138628
edited May 8 at 20:45
Stephen Kitt
43.1k8178183
asked May 8 at 11:27
Maury MarkowitzMaury Markowitz
3,138628
edited May 8 at 20:45
Stephen Kitt
43.1k8178183
edited May 8 at 20:45
Stephen Kitt
43.1k8178183
edited May 8 at 20:45
Stephen Kitt
43.1k8178183
43.1k8178183
asked May 8 at 11:27
Maury MarkowitzMaury Markowitz
3,138628
asked May 8 at 11:27
Maury MarkowitzMaury Markowitz
3,138628
asked May 8 at 11:27
Maury MarkowitzMaury Markowitz
3,138628
3,138628
2
Why and how are you distinguishing micros from minis? A given BASIC could be made to run on either.
– Wilson
May 8 at 11:32
1
HT2000 Basic worked as described; any microcomputer BASICs probably derived such behavior from the HP.
– supercat
May 8 at 11:46
2
For reference, both approaches seem to be revisionist treatments :-). BASIC comes from Dartmouth. 4th edition BASIC had the CHANGE statement to convert between a string variable and an array of ASCII character-codes..
– another-dave
May 8 at 12:01
I do however think I used the LEFT$/RIGHT$ syntax around 1971, dialed in to the UK Open University computer system (I had a maths teacher doing an OU degree in computer science), which I think was running on some HP mini.
– another-dave
May 8 at 12:06
@another-dave I don’t know much about minis, butLEFT$seems to have appeared on micros early on; 8K Altair BASIC had it in 1975.
– Stephen Kitt
May 8 at 12:17
|
show 2 more comments
2
Why and how are you distinguishing micros from minis? A given BASIC could be made to run on either.
– Wilson
May 8 at 11:32
1
HT2000 Basic worked as described; any microcomputer BASICs probably derived such behavior from the HP.
– supercat
May 8 at 11:46
2
For reference, both approaches seem to be revisionist treatments :-). BASIC comes from Dartmouth. 4th edition BASIC had the CHANGE statement to convert between a string variable and an array of ASCII character-codes..
– another-dave
May 8 at 12:01
I do however think I used the LEFT$/RIGHT$ syntax around 1971, dialed in to the UK Open University computer system (I had a maths teacher doing an OU degree in computer science), which I think was running on some HP mini.
– another-dave
May 8 at 12:06
@another-dave I don’t know much about minis, butLEFT$seems to have appeared on micros early on; 8K Altair BASIC had it in 1975.
– Stephen Kitt
May 8 at 12:17
2
2
Why and how are you distinguishing micros from minis? A given BASIC could be made to run on either.
– Wilson
May 8 at 11:32
Why and how are you distinguishing micros from minis? A given BASIC could be made to run on either.
– Wilson
May 8 at 11:32
1
1
HT2000 Basic worked as described; any microcomputer BASICs probably derived such behavior from the HP.
– supercat
May 8 at 11:46
HT2000 Basic worked as described; any microcomputer BASICs probably derived such behavior from the HP.
– supercat
May 8 at 11:46
2
2
For reference, both approaches seem to be revisionist treatments :-). BASIC comes from Dartmouth. 4th edition BASIC had the CHANGE statement to convert between a string variable and an array of ASCII character-codes..
– another-dave
May 8 at 12:01
For reference, both approaches seem to be revisionist treatments :-). BASIC comes from Dartmouth. 4th edition BASIC had the CHANGE statement to convert between a string variable and an array of ASCII character-codes..
– another-dave
May 8 at 12:01
I do however think I used the LEFT$/RIGHT$ syntax around 1971, dialed in to the UK Open University computer system (I had a maths teacher doing an OU degree in computer science), which I think was running on some HP mini.
– another-dave
May 8 at 12:06
I do however think I used the LEFT$/RIGHT$ syntax around 1971, dialed in to the UK Open University computer system (I had a maths teacher doing an OU degree in computer science), which I think was running on some HP mini.
– another-dave
May 8 at 12:06
@another-dave I don’t know much about minis, but
LEFT$ seems to have appeared on micros early on; 8K Altair BASIC had it in 1975.– Stephen Kitt
May 8 at 12:17
@another-dave I don’t know much about minis, but
LEFT$ seems to have appeared on micros early on; 8K Altair BASIC had it in 1975.– Stephen Kitt
May 8 at 12:17
|
show 2 more comments
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
I think the earliest BASIC dialects on micros to use these constructs for strings were North Star BASIC and Apple Integer BASIC in 1977, both presumably influenced by HP BASIC. The Apple lineage isn’t surprising since Steve Wozniak worked at HP.
The origin of this approach to substring addressing could be FORTRAN, which uses a syntax of the form A(I:L).
answered May 8 at 11:59
Stephen KittStephen Kitt
43.1k8178183
Apple BASIC used this style? I didn't know that!
– Maury Markowitz
May 8 at 12:56
2
Only Apple integer basic, Applesoft was standard MS Left/Right/Mid
– PeterI
May 8 at 13:04
Cromenco also did, but that's 1978. So its looking like NS BASIC might be it. What about the Tiny derivatives, did any of them have strings?
– Maury Markowitz
May 8 at 14:35
@Maury Tiny BASIC had string literals forPRINT; MINOL added a way to store strings and retrieve them, using pointers only (no string variables), but didn’t support sub-strings. I don’t know of any other Tiny derivative which had string variables with something likeA$(2,4)before NS BASIC.
– Stephen Kitt
May 8 at 15:23
add a comment |
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1 Answer
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1 Answer
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votes
I think the earliest BASIC dialects on micros to use these constructs for strings were North Star BASIC and Apple Integer BASIC in 1977, both presumably influenced by HP BASIC. The Apple lineage isn’t surprising since Steve Wozniak worked at HP.
The origin of this approach to substring addressing could be FORTRAN, which uses a syntax of the form A(I:L).
answered May 8 at 11:59
Stephen KittStephen Kitt
43.1k8178183
Apple BASIC used this style? I didn't know that!
– Maury Markowitz
May 8 at 12:56
2
Only Apple integer basic, Applesoft was standard MS Left/Right/Mid
– PeterI
May 8 at 13:04
Cromenco also did, but that's 1978. So its looking like NS BASIC might be it. What about the Tiny derivatives, did any of them have strings?
– Maury Markowitz
May 8 at 14:35
@Maury Tiny BASIC had string literals forPRINT; MINOL added a way to store strings and retrieve them, using pointers only (no string variables), but didn’t support sub-strings. I don’t know of any other Tiny derivative which had string variables with something likeA$(2,4)before NS BASIC.
– Stephen Kitt
May 8 at 15:23
add a comment |
I think the earliest BASIC dialects on micros to use these constructs for strings were North Star BASIC and Apple Integer BASIC in 1977, both presumably influenced by HP BASIC. The Apple lineage isn’t surprising since Steve Wozniak worked at HP.
The origin of this approach to substring addressing could be FORTRAN, which uses a syntax of the form A(I:L).
answered May 8 at 11:59
Stephen KittStephen Kitt
43.1k8178183
Apple BASIC used this style? I didn't know that!
– Maury Markowitz
May 8 at 12:56
2
Only Apple integer basic, Applesoft was standard MS Left/Right/Mid
– PeterI
May 8 at 13:04
Cromenco also did, but that's 1978. So its looking like NS BASIC might be it. What about the Tiny derivatives, did any of them have strings?
– Maury Markowitz
May 8 at 14:35
@Maury Tiny BASIC had string literals forPRINT; MINOL added a way to store strings and retrieve them, using pointers only (no string variables), but didn’t support sub-strings. I don’t know of any other Tiny derivative which had string variables with something likeA$(2,4)before NS BASIC.
– Stephen Kitt
May 8 at 15:23
add a comment |
I think the earliest BASIC dialects on micros to use these constructs for strings were North Star BASIC and Apple Integer BASIC in 1977, both presumably influenced by HP BASIC. The Apple lineage isn’t surprising since Steve Wozniak worked at HP.
The origin of this approach to substring addressing could be FORTRAN, which uses a syntax of the form A(I:L).
answered May 8 at 11:59
Stephen KittStephen Kitt
43.1k8178183
I think the earliest BASIC dialects on micros to use these constructs for strings were North Star BASIC and Apple Integer BASIC in 1977, both presumably influenced by HP BASIC. The Apple lineage isn’t surprising since Steve Wozniak worked at HP.
The origin of this approach to substring addressing could be FORTRAN, which uses a syntax of the form A(I:L).
answered May 8 at 11:59
Stephen KittStephen Kitt
43.1k8178183
answered May 8 at 11:59
Stephen KittStephen Kitt
43.1k8178183
answered May 8 at 11:59
Stephen KittStephen Kitt
43.1k8178183
answered May 8 at 11:59
Stephen KittStephen Kitt
43.1k8178183
43.1k8178183
Apple BASIC used this style? I didn't know that!
– Maury Markowitz
May 8 at 12:56
2
Only Apple integer basic, Applesoft was standard MS Left/Right/Mid
– PeterI
May 8 at 13:04
Cromenco also did, but that's 1978. So its looking like NS BASIC might be it. What about the Tiny derivatives, did any of them have strings?
– Maury Markowitz
May 8 at 14:35
@Maury Tiny BASIC had string literals forPRINT; MINOL added a way to store strings and retrieve them, using pointers only (no string variables), but didn’t support sub-strings. I don’t know of any other Tiny derivative which had string variables with something likeA$(2,4)before NS BASIC.
– Stephen Kitt
May 8 at 15:23
add a comment |
Apple BASIC used this style? I didn't know that!
– Maury Markowitz
May 8 at 12:56
2
Only Apple integer basic, Applesoft was standard MS Left/Right/Mid
– PeterI
May 8 at 13:04
Cromenco also did, but that's 1978. So its looking like NS BASIC might be it. What about the Tiny derivatives, did any of them have strings?
– Maury Markowitz
May 8 at 14:35
@Maury Tiny BASIC had string literals forPRINT; MINOL added a way to store strings and retrieve them, using pointers only (no string variables), but didn’t support sub-strings. I don’t know of any other Tiny derivative which had string variables with something likeA$(2,4)before NS BASIC.
– Stephen Kitt
May 8 at 15:23
Apple BASIC used this style? I didn't know that!
– Maury Markowitz
May 8 at 12:56
Apple BASIC used this style? I didn't know that!
– Maury Markowitz
May 8 at 12:56
2
2
Only Apple integer basic, Applesoft was standard MS Left/Right/Mid
– PeterI
May 8 at 13:04
Only Apple integer basic, Applesoft was standard MS Left/Right/Mid
– PeterI
May 8 at 13:04
Cromenco also did, but that's 1978. So its looking like NS BASIC might be it. What about the Tiny derivatives, did any of them have strings?
– Maury Markowitz
May 8 at 14:35
Cromenco also did, but that's 1978. So its looking like NS BASIC might be it. What about the Tiny derivatives, did any of them have strings?
– Maury Markowitz
May 8 at 14:35
@Maury Tiny BASIC had string literals for
PRINT; MINOL added a way to store strings and retrieve them, using pointers only (no string variables), but didn’t support sub-strings. I don’t know of any other Tiny derivative which had string variables with something like A$(2,4) before NS BASIC.– Stephen Kitt
May 8 at 15:23
@Maury Tiny BASIC had string literals for
PRINT; MINOL added a way to store strings and retrieve them, using pointers only (no string variables), but didn’t support sub-strings. I don’t know of any other Tiny derivative which had string variables with something like A$(2,4) before NS BASIC.– Stephen Kitt
May 8 at 15:23
add a comment |
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2
Why and how are you distinguishing micros from minis? A given BASIC could be made to run on either.
– Wilson
May 8 at 11:32
1
HT2000 Basic worked as described; any microcomputer BASICs probably derived such behavior from the HP.
– supercat
May 8 at 11:46
2
For reference, both approaches seem to be revisionist treatments :-). BASIC comes from Dartmouth. 4th edition BASIC had the CHANGE statement to convert between a string variable and an array of ASCII character-codes..
– another-dave
May 8 at 12:01
I do however think I used the LEFT$/RIGHT$ syntax around 1971, dialed in to the UK Open University computer system (I had a maths teacher doing an OU degree in computer science), which I think was running on some HP mini.
– another-dave
May 8 at 12:06
@another-dave I don’t know much about minis, but
LEFT$seems to have appeared on micros early on; 8K Altair BASIC had it in 1975.– Stephen Kitt
May 8 at 12:17