A step in understanding intermediate value property for derivativeFixed Points: Intermediate Value TheoremFinding maximum and minimim of function on an interval. Are there multiple ones?Polynomial must be monotone between its extremaWhy exactly does a function need to be continuous on a closed interval for the intermediate value theorem to apply?Does Proofwiki correctly state the intermediate value theorem?Closed Interval MethodNowhere differentiable continuous functions and local extremaContinuous function with no local maximumThe Second Derivative Test and the Mean Value Theorem
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A step in understanding intermediate value property for derivative
Fixed Points: Intermediate Value TheoremFinding maximum and minimim of function on an interval. Are there multiple ones?Polynomial must be monotone between its extremaWhy exactly does a function need to be continuous on a closed interval for the intermediate value theorem to apply?Does Proofwiki correctly state the intermediate value theorem?Closed Interval MethodNowhere differentiable continuous functions and local extremaContinuous function with no local maximumThe Second Derivative Test and the Mean Value Theorem
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
$begingroup$
Let $f:Irightarrow mathbbR$ be a differentiable function where $I$ is an open interval. Let $a,bin I$ be such that $f'(a)<0$ and $f'(b)>0$. Then there is $c$ between $a$ and $b$ such that $f'(c)=0$.
Proof: (1) We show that there is local minimum $c$ for $f$ in the interval $(a,b)$.
(2) If (1) is not true, then either $c=a$ will be a local minimum or $c=b$ will be a local minimum.
(3) Suppose $c=a$ is local minimum. Then $f(a+h)-f(a)ge 0$ in small neighbourhood $[a,a+h)$ of $a$, hence $lim_hrightarrow 0^+ fracf(a+h)-f(a))hge 0$ i.e. $f'(a)ge 0$, contradiction.
(4) If $c=b$ is a local minimum, then $f$ is decreasing in local neighbourhood of $b$ i.e. $f(b)le f(b-h)$ for small neighbourhood $(b-h,b]$ of $b$. But then $lim_hrightarrow 0^+ fracf(b-h)-f(b)-hge 0$ i.e. $f'(b)le 0$, contradiction.
(5) Thus, local minimum must be inside $(a,b)$ and consequently, $f'(c)=0$.
Q. In the whole argument, we tried to find local minimum. It is natural question to ask why don't we try for local maximum. If $c=a$ or $c=b$ is a local maximum, then the arguments as in (3) and (4) do not give any contradiction actually. So we can not conclude that local maximum does or doesn't exist in $(a,b)$.
On the other hand, we can give an example of a function, such as $f(x)=x^2$ for $xin [-1,1]$, where $f'(-1)<0$ and $f'(1)>0$. The point $c$ of local maximum is the boundary point $1$, and hence it is not in $(-1,1)$.
Geometrically, how can we justify that we should seek for local minumum but not local maximum to get desired $c$?
real-analysis calculus
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $f:Irightarrow mathbbR$ be a differentiable function where $I$ is an open interval. Let $a,bin I$ be such that $f'(a)<0$ and $f'(b)>0$. Then there is $c$ between $a$ and $b$ such that $f'(c)=0$.
Proof: (1) We show that there is local minimum $c$ for $f$ in the interval $(a,b)$.
(2) If (1) is not true, then either $c=a$ will be a local minimum or $c=b$ will be a local minimum.
(3) Suppose $c=a$ is local minimum. Then $f(a+h)-f(a)ge 0$ in small neighbourhood $[a,a+h)$ of $a$, hence $lim_hrightarrow 0^+ fracf(a+h)-f(a))hge 0$ i.e. $f'(a)ge 0$, contradiction.
(4) If $c=b$ is a local minimum, then $f$ is decreasing in local neighbourhood of $b$ i.e. $f(b)le f(b-h)$ for small neighbourhood $(b-h,b]$ of $b$. But then $lim_hrightarrow 0^+ fracf(b-h)-f(b)-hge 0$ i.e. $f'(b)le 0$, contradiction.
(5) Thus, local minimum must be inside $(a,b)$ and consequently, $f'(c)=0$.
Q. In the whole argument, we tried to find local minimum. It is natural question to ask why don't we try for local maximum. If $c=a$ or $c=b$ is a local maximum, then the arguments as in (3) and (4) do not give any contradiction actually. So we can not conclude that local maximum does or doesn't exist in $(a,b)$.
On the other hand, we can give an example of a function, such as $f(x)=x^2$ for $xin [-1,1]$, where $f'(-1)<0$ and $f'(1)>0$. The point $c$ of local maximum is the boundary point $1$, and hence it is not in $(-1,1)$.
Geometrically, how can we justify that we should seek for local minumum but not local maximum to get desired $c$?
real-analysis calculus
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
If you get a valid proof using local minimum that is the end of the proof. You don't have to justify why you are not taking a local maximum.
$endgroup$
– Kavi Rama Murthy
Aug 16 at 9:21
$begingroup$
If I am explaining this proof in classroom and I wrote Step (1), immediately a student may ask why don't we work for searching local maximum?
$endgroup$
– Beginner
Aug 16 at 9:34
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $f:Irightarrow mathbbR$ be a differentiable function where $I$ is an open interval. Let $a,bin I$ be such that $f'(a)<0$ and $f'(b)>0$. Then there is $c$ between $a$ and $b$ such that $f'(c)=0$.
Proof: (1) We show that there is local minimum $c$ for $f$ in the interval $(a,b)$.
(2) If (1) is not true, then either $c=a$ will be a local minimum or $c=b$ will be a local minimum.
(3) Suppose $c=a$ is local minimum. Then $f(a+h)-f(a)ge 0$ in small neighbourhood $[a,a+h)$ of $a$, hence $lim_hrightarrow 0^+ fracf(a+h)-f(a))hge 0$ i.e. $f'(a)ge 0$, contradiction.
(4) If $c=b$ is a local minimum, then $f$ is decreasing in local neighbourhood of $b$ i.e. $f(b)le f(b-h)$ for small neighbourhood $(b-h,b]$ of $b$. But then $lim_hrightarrow 0^+ fracf(b-h)-f(b)-hge 0$ i.e. $f'(b)le 0$, contradiction.
(5) Thus, local minimum must be inside $(a,b)$ and consequently, $f'(c)=0$.
Q. In the whole argument, we tried to find local minimum. It is natural question to ask why don't we try for local maximum. If $c=a$ or $c=b$ is a local maximum, then the arguments as in (3) and (4) do not give any contradiction actually. So we can not conclude that local maximum does or doesn't exist in $(a,b)$.
On the other hand, we can give an example of a function, such as $f(x)=x^2$ for $xin [-1,1]$, where $f'(-1)<0$ and $f'(1)>0$. The point $c$ of local maximum is the boundary point $1$, and hence it is not in $(-1,1)$.
Geometrically, how can we justify that we should seek for local minumum but not local maximum to get desired $c$?
real-analysis calculus
$endgroup$
Let $f:Irightarrow mathbbR$ be a differentiable function where $I$ is an open interval. Let $a,bin I$ be such that $f'(a)<0$ and $f'(b)>0$. Then there is $c$ between $a$ and $b$ such that $f'(c)=0$.
Proof: (1) We show that there is local minimum $c$ for $f$ in the interval $(a,b)$.
(2) If (1) is not true, then either $c=a$ will be a local minimum or $c=b$ will be a local minimum.
(3) Suppose $c=a$ is local minimum. Then $f(a+h)-f(a)ge 0$ in small neighbourhood $[a,a+h)$ of $a$, hence $lim_hrightarrow 0^+ fracf(a+h)-f(a))hge 0$ i.e. $f'(a)ge 0$, contradiction.
(4) If $c=b$ is a local minimum, then $f$ is decreasing in local neighbourhood of $b$ i.e. $f(b)le f(b-h)$ for small neighbourhood $(b-h,b]$ of $b$. But then $lim_hrightarrow 0^+ fracf(b-h)-f(b)-hge 0$ i.e. $f'(b)le 0$, contradiction.
(5) Thus, local minimum must be inside $(a,b)$ and consequently, $f'(c)=0$.
Q. In the whole argument, we tried to find local minimum. It is natural question to ask why don't we try for local maximum. If $c=a$ or $c=b$ is a local maximum, then the arguments as in (3) and (4) do not give any contradiction actually. So we can not conclude that local maximum does or doesn't exist in $(a,b)$.
On the other hand, we can give an example of a function, such as $f(x)=x^2$ for $xin [-1,1]$, where $f'(-1)<0$ and $f'(1)>0$. The point $c$ of local maximum is the boundary point $1$, and hence it is not in $(-1,1)$.
Geometrically, how can we justify that we should seek for local minumum but not local maximum to get desired $c$?
real-analysis calculus
real-analysis calculus
asked Aug 16 at 9:07
BeginnerBeginner
4,6241 gold badge12 silver badges28 bronze badges
4,6241 gold badge12 silver badges28 bronze badges
$begingroup$
If you get a valid proof using local minimum that is the end of the proof. You don't have to justify why you are not taking a local maximum.
$endgroup$
– Kavi Rama Murthy
Aug 16 at 9:21
$begingroup$
If I am explaining this proof in classroom and I wrote Step (1), immediately a student may ask why don't we work for searching local maximum?
$endgroup$
– Beginner
Aug 16 at 9:34
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If you get a valid proof using local minimum that is the end of the proof. You don't have to justify why you are not taking a local maximum.
$endgroup$
– Kavi Rama Murthy
Aug 16 at 9:21
$begingroup$
If I am explaining this proof in classroom and I wrote Step (1), immediately a student may ask why don't we work for searching local maximum?
$endgroup$
– Beginner
Aug 16 at 9:34
$begingroup$
If you get a valid proof using local minimum that is the end of the proof. You don't have to justify why you are not taking a local maximum.
$endgroup$
– Kavi Rama Murthy
Aug 16 at 9:21
$begingroup$
If you get a valid proof using local minimum that is the end of the proof. You don't have to justify why you are not taking a local maximum.
$endgroup$
– Kavi Rama Murthy
Aug 16 at 9:21
$begingroup$
If I am explaining this proof in classroom and I wrote Step (1), immediately a student may ask why don't we work for searching local maximum?
$endgroup$
– Beginner
Aug 16 at 9:34
$begingroup$
If I am explaining this proof in classroom and I wrote Step (1), immediately a student may ask why don't we work for searching local maximum?
$endgroup$
– Beginner
Aug 16 at 9:34
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
This is because it's assumed that $f'(a)<0$ and $f'(b)>0$. If you assume that $f'(a)>0$ and $ f'(b)<0$, then you will have to look for a global maximum.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It is best to understand the meaning of sign of derivative. Let's see what the assumptions $f'(a) <0,f'(b)>0$ mean. Since $f'(a) <0$ the function $f$ is strictly decreasing at point $a$ which more formally means that there is an $h>0$ such that $f(a) >f(x) $ for all $xin(a, a+h) $. The graph of $f$ thus looks to be going downwards at $a$ as we move to the right of $a$. Similarly since $f'(b) >0$, the graph of $f$ moves upward at $b$ as we move from the left of $b$. If you draw such a graph on paper you will at once be convinced that there is local minimum of $f$ between $a$ and $b$.
The conclusion can be reached without any graphical aid. Assume $f(a) leq f(b) $ (the case $f(a) >f(b) $ can be handled similarly). Since there are values of $f$ in interval $(a, a+h) $ which are less than $f(a) $ and also less than $f(b) $ because $f(a) leq f(b) $ it follows that the minimum value of $f$ in $[a, b] $ is attained at an interior point and this also acts as a local minimum.
The conditions in the question do not prohibit the existence of a local maximum and there may (or may not) be a local maximum also, but the conditions don't guarantee it. The local minimum on the other hand is guaranteed as shown in previous paragraph.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You are right, $f'(c)=0$ may imply either minimum or maximum. For example, $y=frac14x^4-frac12x^2, xin (-2,2)$.
$hspace4cm$
$f(0)=0$ is a local maximum. However, there are two global minimums, namely: $f(-1)=f(1)=-frac14$.
The proof relies on the Extreme Value Theorem and assumes that the function attains its maximum and minimum in the closed interval, therefore it checks the three points: the point $c$ and the borders $a$ and $b$. It proves that the borders cannot be minimum, therefore the minimum occurs inside at the critical point $c$ for which $f'(c)=0$. And note there can be several points inside the interval for which $f'(c)=0$, but surely there exists such $c$ for which the function attains its minimum.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
"There can be several points ... but surely...." If there are an infinite number of points with $f'(c) = 0$, it doesn't seem at all obvious that one of them must be the minimum. Not unless you teach concepts like Dedekind completeness before "Calculus 1", anyway.
$endgroup$
– alephzero
Aug 16 at 18:11
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At least one of them will be minimum by the EVT.
$endgroup$
– farruhota
Aug 16 at 18:24
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A real point of confusion here is that you are assuming that a < b in your proof [witness the description of the open interval as '(a,b)', which notation assumes a < b]. The problem statement DOES NOT state this!
If a < b as you assume, the conditions imply that the graph of f descends from left-to-right from a, and ascends from left-to-right to b, which as you infer puts a local minimum between them. However, if b < a, the graph of f -ascends- from left-to-right from b and -descends- from left-to-right to a, implying a local -maximum- between them.
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$begingroup$
Welcome to MSE. For some basic information about writing mathematics at this site see, e.g., basic help on mathjax notation, mathjax tutorial and quick reference, main meta site math tutorial and equation editing how-to.
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– José Carlos Santos
Aug 16 at 18:13
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I think the hole in the proof it's worse that that - the OP just assumes the minimum exists, and then shows it can't be at the ends of the interval. Replacing "minimum" with "extremum" doesn't make the argument any more convincing to a beginner.
$endgroup$
– alephzero
Aug 16 at 18:15
add a comment |
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4 Answers
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active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
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active
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$begingroup$
This is because it's assumed that $f'(a)<0$ and $f'(b)>0$. If you assume that $f'(a)>0$ and $ f'(b)<0$, then you will have to look for a global maximum.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This is because it's assumed that $f'(a)<0$ and $f'(b)>0$. If you assume that $f'(a)>0$ and $ f'(b)<0$, then you will have to look for a global maximum.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This is because it's assumed that $f'(a)<0$ and $f'(b)>0$. If you assume that $f'(a)>0$ and $ f'(b)<0$, then you will have to look for a global maximum.
$endgroup$
This is because it's assumed that $f'(a)<0$ and $f'(b)>0$. If you assume that $f'(a)>0$ and $ f'(b)<0$, then you will have to look for a global maximum.
edited Aug 16 at 10:14
Clayton
20.3k3 gold badges35 silver badges92 bronze badges
20.3k3 gold badges35 silver badges92 bronze badges
answered Aug 16 at 9:17
MotylaNogaTomkaMazuraMotylaNogaTomkaMazura
6,88610 silver badges17 bronze badges
6,88610 silver badges17 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It is best to understand the meaning of sign of derivative. Let's see what the assumptions $f'(a) <0,f'(b)>0$ mean. Since $f'(a) <0$ the function $f$ is strictly decreasing at point $a$ which more formally means that there is an $h>0$ such that $f(a) >f(x) $ for all $xin(a, a+h) $. The graph of $f$ thus looks to be going downwards at $a$ as we move to the right of $a$. Similarly since $f'(b) >0$, the graph of $f$ moves upward at $b$ as we move from the left of $b$. If you draw such a graph on paper you will at once be convinced that there is local minimum of $f$ between $a$ and $b$.
The conclusion can be reached without any graphical aid. Assume $f(a) leq f(b) $ (the case $f(a) >f(b) $ can be handled similarly). Since there are values of $f$ in interval $(a, a+h) $ which are less than $f(a) $ and also less than $f(b) $ because $f(a) leq f(b) $ it follows that the minimum value of $f$ in $[a, b] $ is attained at an interior point and this also acts as a local minimum.
The conditions in the question do not prohibit the existence of a local maximum and there may (or may not) be a local maximum also, but the conditions don't guarantee it. The local minimum on the other hand is guaranteed as shown in previous paragraph.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It is best to understand the meaning of sign of derivative. Let's see what the assumptions $f'(a) <0,f'(b)>0$ mean. Since $f'(a) <0$ the function $f$ is strictly decreasing at point $a$ which more formally means that there is an $h>0$ such that $f(a) >f(x) $ for all $xin(a, a+h) $. The graph of $f$ thus looks to be going downwards at $a$ as we move to the right of $a$. Similarly since $f'(b) >0$, the graph of $f$ moves upward at $b$ as we move from the left of $b$. If you draw such a graph on paper you will at once be convinced that there is local minimum of $f$ between $a$ and $b$.
The conclusion can be reached without any graphical aid. Assume $f(a) leq f(b) $ (the case $f(a) >f(b) $ can be handled similarly). Since there are values of $f$ in interval $(a, a+h) $ which are less than $f(a) $ and also less than $f(b) $ because $f(a) leq f(b) $ it follows that the minimum value of $f$ in $[a, b] $ is attained at an interior point and this also acts as a local minimum.
The conditions in the question do not prohibit the existence of a local maximum and there may (or may not) be a local maximum also, but the conditions don't guarantee it. The local minimum on the other hand is guaranteed as shown in previous paragraph.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It is best to understand the meaning of sign of derivative. Let's see what the assumptions $f'(a) <0,f'(b)>0$ mean. Since $f'(a) <0$ the function $f$ is strictly decreasing at point $a$ which more formally means that there is an $h>0$ such that $f(a) >f(x) $ for all $xin(a, a+h) $. The graph of $f$ thus looks to be going downwards at $a$ as we move to the right of $a$. Similarly since $f'(b) >0$, the graph of $f$ moves upward at $b$ as we move from the left of $b$. If you draw such a graph on paper you will at once be convinced that there is local minimum of $f$ between $a$ and $b$.
The conclusion can be reached without any graphical aid. Assume $f(a) leq f(b) $ (the case $f(a) >f(b) $ can be handled similarly). Since there are values of $f$ in interval $(a, a+h) $ which are less than $f(a) $ and also less than $f(b) $ because $f(a) leq f(b) $ it follows that the minimum value of $f$ in $[a, b] $ is attained at an interior point and this also acts as a local minimum.
The conditions in the question do not prohibit the existence of a local maximum and there may (or may not) be a local maximum also, but the conditions don't guarantee it. The local minimum on the other hand is guaranteed as shown in previous paragraph.
$endgroup$
It is best to understand the meaning of sign of derivative. Let's see what the assumptions $f'(a) <0,f'(b)>0$ mean. Since $f'(a) <0$ the function $f$ is strictly decreasing at point $a$ which more formally means that there is an $h>0$ such that $f(a) >f(x) $ for all $xin(a, a+h) $. The graph of $f$ thus looks to be going downwards at $a$ as we move to the right of $a$. Similarly since $f'(b) >0$, the graph of $f$ moves upward at $b$ as we move from the left of $b$. If you draw such a graph on paper you will at once be convinced that there is local minimum of $f$ between $a$ and $b$.
The conclusion can be reached without any graphical aid. Assume $f(a) leq f(b) $ (the case $f(a) >f(b) $ can be handled similarly). Since there are values of $f$ in interval $(a, a+h) $ which are less than $f(a) $ and also less than $f(b) $ because $f(a) leq f(b) $ it follows that the minimum value of $f$ in $[a, b] $ is attained at an interior point and this also acts as a local minimum.
The conditions in the question do not prohibit the existence of a local maximum and there may (or may not) be a local maximum also, but the conditions don't guarantee it. The local minimum on the other hand is guaranteed as shown in previous paragraph.
answered Aug 16 at 12:26
Paramanand SinghParamanand Singh
53k5 gold badges64 silver badges178 bronze badges
53k5 gold badges64 silver badges178 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You are right, $f'(c)=0$ may imply either minimum or maximum. For example, $y=frac14x^4-frac12x^2, xin (-2,2)$.
$hspace4cm$
$f(0)=0$ is a local maximum. However, there are two global minimums, namely: $f(-1)=f(1)=-frac14$.
The proof relies on the Extreme Value Theorem and assumes that the function attains its maximum and minimum in the closed interval, therefore it checks the three points: the point $c$ and the borders $a$ and $b$. It proves that the borders cannot be minimum, therefore the minimum occurs inside at the critical point $c$ for which $f'(c)=0$. And note there can be several points inside the interval for which $f'(c)=0$, but surely there exists such $c$ for which the function attains its minimum.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
"There can be several points ... but surely...." If there are an infinite number of points with $f'(c) = 0$, it doesn't seem at all obvious that one of them must be the minimum. Not unless you teach concepts like Dedekind completeness before "Calculus 1", anyway.
$endgroup$
– alephzero
Aug 16 at 18:11
$begingroup$
At least one of them will be minimum by the EVT.
$endgroup$
– farruhota
Aug 16 at 18:24
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You are right, $f'(c)=0$ may imply either minimum or maximum. For example, $y=frac14x^4-frac12x^2, xin (-2,2)$.
$hspace4cm$
$f(0)=0$ is a local maximum. However, there are two global minimums, namely: $f(-1)=f(1)=-frac14$.
The proof relies on the Extreme Value Theorem and assumes that the function attains its maximum and minimum in the closed interval, therefore it checks the three points: the point $c$ and the borders $a$ and $b$. It proves that the borders cannot be minimum, therefore the minimum occurs inside at the critical point $c$ for which $f'(c)=0$. And note there can be several points inside the interval for which $f'(c)=0$, but surely there exists such $c$ for which the function attains its minimum.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
"There can be several points ... but surely...." If there are an infinite number of points with $f'(c) = 0$, it doesn't seem at all obvious that one of them must be the minimum. Not unless you teach concepts like Dedekind completeness before "Calculus 1", anyway.
$endgroup$
– alephzero
Aug 16 at 18:11
$begingroup$
At least one of them will be minimum by the EVT.
$endgroup$
– farruhota
Aug 16 at 18:24
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You are right, $f'(c)=0$ may imply either minimum or maximum. For example, $y=frac14x^4-frac12x^2, xin (-2,2)$.
$hspace4cm$
$f(0)=0$ is a local maximum. However, there are two global minimums, namely: $f(-1)=f(1)=-frac14$.
The proof relies on the Extreme Value Theorem and assumes that the function attains its maximum and minimum in the closed interval, therefore it checks the three points: the point $c$ and the borders $a$ and $b$. It proves that the borders cannot be minimum, therefore the minimum occurs inside at the critical point $c$ for which $f'(c)=0$. And note there can be several points inside the interval for which $f'(c)=0$, but surely there exists such $c$ for which the function attains its minimum.
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You are right, $f'(c)=0$ may imply either minimum or maximum. For example, $y=frac14x^4-frac12x^2, xin (-2,2)$.
$hspace4cm$
$f(0)=0$ is a local maximum. However, there are two global minimums, namely: $f(-1)=f(1)=-frac14$.
The proof relies on the Extreme Value Theorem and assumes that the function attains its maximum and minimum in the closed interval, therefore it checks the three points: the point $c$ and the borders $a$ and $b$. It proves that the borders cannot be minimum, therefore the minimum occurs inside at the critical point $c$ for which $f'(c)=0$. And note there can be several points inside the interval for which $f'(c)=0$, but surely there exists such $c$ for which the function attains its minimum.
answered Aug 16 at 13:20
farruhotafarruhota
25k2 gold badges9 silver badges46 bronze badges
25k2 gold badges9 silver badges46 bronze badges
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"There can be several points ... but surely...." If there are an infinite number of points with $f'(c) = 0$, it doesn't seem at all obvious that one of them must be the minimum. Not unless you teach concepts like Dedekind completeness before "Calculus 1", anyway.
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– alephzero
Aug 16 at 18:11
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At least one of them will be minimum by the EVT.
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– farruhota
Aug 16 at 18:24
add a comment |
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"There can be several points ... but surely...." If there are an infinite number of points with $f'(c) = 0$, it doesn't seem at all obvious that one of them must be the minimum. Not unless you teach concepts like Dedekind completeness before "Calculus 1", anyway.
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– alephzero
Aug 16 at 18:11
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At least one of them will be minimum by the EVT.
$endgroup$
– farruhota
Aug 16 at 18:24
$begingroup$
"There can be several points ... but surely...." If there are an infinite number of points with $f'(c) = 0$, it doesn't seem at all obvious that one of them must be the minimum. Not unless you teach concepts like Dedekind completeness before "Calculus 1", anyway.
$endgroup$
– alephzero
Aug 16 at 18:11
$begingroup$
"There can be several points ... but surely...." If there are an infinite number of points with $f'(c) = 0$, it doesn't seem at all obvious that one of them must be the minimum. Not unless you teach concepts like Dedekind completeness before "Calculus 1", anyway.
$endgroup$
– alephzero
Aug 16 at 18:11
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At least one of them will be minimum by the EVT.
$endgroup$
– farruhota
Aug 16 at 18:24
$begingroup$
At least one of them will be minimum by the EVT.
$endgroup$
– farruhota
Aug 16 at 18:24
add a comment |
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A real point of confusion here is that you are assuming that a < b in your proof [witness the description of the open interval as '(a,b)', which notation assumes a < b]. The problem statement DOES NOT state this!
If a < b as you assume, the conditions imply that the graph of f descends from left-to-right from a, and ascends from left-to-right to b, which as you infer puts a local minimum between them. However, if b < a, the graph of f -ascends- from left-to-right from b and -descends- from left-to-right to a, implying a local -maximum- between them.
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$begingroup$
Welcome to MSE. For some basic information about writing mathematics at this site see, e.g., basic help on mathjax notation, mathjax tutorial and quick reference, main meta site math tutorial and equation editing how-to.
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– José Carlos Santos
Aug 16 at 18:13
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I think the hole in the proof it's worse that that - the OP just assumes the minimum exists, and then shows it can't be at the ends of the interval. Replacing "minimum" with "extremum" doesn't make the argument any more convincing to a beginner.
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– alephzero
Aug 16 at 18:15
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A real point of confusion here is that you are assuming that a < b in your proof [witness the description of the open interval as '(a,b)', which notation assumes a < b]. The problem statement DOES NOT state this!
If a < b as you assume, the conditions imply that the graph of f descends from left-to-right from a, and ascends from left-to-right to b, which as you infer puts a local minimum between them. However, if b < a, the graph of f -ascends- from left-to-right from b and -descends- from left-to-right to a, implying a local -maximum- between them.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Welcome to MSE. For some basic information about writing mathematics at this site see, e.g., basic help on mathjax notation, mathjax tutorial and quick reference, main meta site math tutorial and equation editing how-to.
$endgroup$
– José Carlos Santos
Aug 16 at 18:13
$begingroup$
I think the hole in the proof it's worse that that - the OP just assumes the minimum exists, and then shows it can't be at the ends of the interval. Replacing "minimum" with "extremum" doesn't make the argument any more convincing to a beginner.
$endgroup$
– alephzero
Aug 16 at 18:15
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A real point of confusion here is that you are assuming that a < b in your proof [witness the description of the open interval as '(a,b)', which notation assumes a < b]. The problem statement DOES NOT state this!
If a < b as you assume, the conditions imply that the graph of f descends from left-to-right from a, and ascends from left-to-right to b, which as you infer puts a local minimum between them. However, if b < a, the graph of f -ascends- from left-to-right from b and -descends- from left-to-right to a, implying a local -maximum- between them.
$endgroup$
A real point of confusion here is that you are assuming that a < b in your proof [witness the description of the open interval as '(a,b)', which notation assumes a < b]. The problem statement DOES NOT state this!
If a < b as you assume, the conditions imply that the graph of f descends from left-to-right from a, and ascends from left-to-right to b, which as you infer puts a local minimum between them. However, if b < a, the graph of f -ascends- from left-to-right from b and -descends- from left-to-right to a, implying a local -maximum- between them.
answered Aug 16 at 18:10
PMarPMar
111 bronze badge
111 bronze badge
$begingroup$
Welcome to MSE. For some basic information about writing mathematics at this site see, e.g., basic help on mathjax notation, mathjax tutorial and quick reference, main meta site math tutorial and equation editing how-to.
$endgroup$
– José Carlos Santos
Aug 16 at 18:13
$begingroup$
I think the hole in the proof it's worse that that - the OP just assumes the minimum exists, and then shows it can't be at the ends of the interval. Replacing "minimum" with "extremum" doesn't make the argument any more convincing to a beginner.
$endgroup$
– alephzero
Aug 16 at 18:15
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Welcome to MSE. For some basic information about writing mathematics at this site see, e.g., basic help on mathjax notation, mathjax tutorial and quick reference, main meta site math tutorial and equation editing how-to.
$endgroup$
– José Carlos Santos
Aug 16 at 18:13
$begingroup$
I think the hole in the proof it's worse that that - the OP just assumes the minimum exists, and then shows it can't be at the ends of the interval. Replacing "minimum" with "extremum" doesn't make the argument any more convincing to a beginner.
$endgroup$
– alephzero
Aug 16 at 18:15
$begingroup$
Welcome to MSE. For some basic information about writing mathematics at this site see, e.g., basic help on mathjax notation, mathjax tutorial and quick reference, main meta site math tutorial and equation editing how-to.
$endgroup$
– José Carlos Santos
Aug 16 at 18:13
$begingroup$
Welcome to MSE. For some basic information about writing mathematics at this site see, e.g., basic help on mathjax notation, mathjax tutorial and quick reference, main meta site math tutorial and equation editing how-to.
$endgroup$
– José Carlos Santos
Aug 16 at 18:13
$begingroup$
I think the hole in the proof it's worse that that - the OP just assumes the minimum exists, and then shows it can't be at the ends of the interval. Replacing "minimum" with "extremum" doesn't make the argument any more convincing to a beginner.
$endgroup$
– alephzero
Aug 16 at 18:15
$begingroup$
I think the hole in the proof it's worse that that - the OP just assumes the minimum exists, and then shows it can't be at the ends of the interval. Replacing "minimum" with "extremum" doesn't make the argument any more convincing to a beginner.
$endgroup$
– alephzero
Aug 16 at 18:15
add a comment |
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If you get a valid proof using local minimum that is the end of the proof. You don't have to justify why you are not taking a local maximum.
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– Kavi Rama Murthy
Aug 16 at 9:21
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If I am explaining this proof in classroom and I wrote Step (1), immediately a student may ask why don't we work for searching local maximum?
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– Beginner
Aug 16 at 9:34