Accurately recalling the key - can everyone do it?What's so special about III ?How to know what notes will go together while improvising?The major scale - why and how?Compare the similarity of flow and rhythm of 2 songsWhat exactly is the difference between arranging a piece of music and composing it?When can changing key sound good?How to figure out an inverted chord by ear?Can a song contain pitches outside of its intended key?Operating guitar for 10 years but can't make musicAsymmetric ease of improvisation during modulation

Why is the second S silent in "Sens dessus dessous"?

Why won't the Republicans use a superdelegate system like the DNC in their nomination process?

Identifying My Main Water Shutoff Valve / Setup

Is it possible to arrive in the US without a C-1 visa for a transit flight

How do I ask for 2-3 days per week remote work in a job interview?

Are there any cons in using rounded corners for bar graphs?

Why aren't rainbows blurred-out into nothing after they are produced?

Did DOS zero out the BSS area when it loaded a program?

Locked Room Murder!! How and who?

Why is there a large performance impact when looping over an array over 240 elements?

Why does Japan use the same type of AC power outlet as the US?

Co-workers with a lot of money and openly talk about it

Global BGP Routing only by only importing supernet prefixes

What should we do with manuals from the 80s?

Pokemon Go: Gym Badge Over-completed?

Do I have to cite common CS algorithms?

What is a "soap"?

Crippling fear of hellfire &, damnation, please help?

How did Arecibo detect methane lakes on Titan, and image Saturn's rings?

What kind of liquid can be seen 'leaking' from the upper surface of the wing of a Boeing 737-800?

Shifting tenses in the middle of narration

How was the murder committed?

Do beef farmed pastures net remove carbon emissions?

Lípínguapua dopo Pêpê



Accurately recalling the key - can everyone do it?


What's so special about III ?How to know what notes will go together while improvising?The major scale - why and how?Compare the similarity of flow and rhythm of 2 songsWhat exactly is the difference between arranging a piece of music and composing it?When can changing key sound good?How to figure out an inverted chord by ear?Can a song contain pitches outside of its intended key?Operating guitar for 10 years but can't make musicAsymmetric ease of improvisation during modulation






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








11















I'm wondering if it is common for people to accurately recall not only the melody of a song they know, but also the key. I've recently done a small experiment where I asked a few of my friends to hum the beginning of some popular tunes, like the Star Wars theme. They hummed it somewhat correctly - the melody was ok, but they didn't all start from the same note. Also, when I played the songs on my phone, it turned out all of them were signing in the wrong key.
Is that a coincidence, or is it actually not that common for people to accurately recall the key? Of course I'm asking about those who were not musically trained.










share|improve this question
























  • How much leeway are you allowing for being in the right key?

    – Michael Curtis
    Aug 2 at 19:17






  • 8





    By "key", it sounds like you're referring to absolute pitch, and thankfully not all of us are so afflicted!

    – chrylis
    Aug 3 at 5:08






  • 2





    Singers will often sing in a different key than the song was written to put it in their normal range. An accompanist at a competition once commented "I've played that song in all twelve keys".

    – Ross Millikan
    Aug 3 at 19:28






  • 3





    For instance, if you have someone playing a C-flute, they won't perform "Amazing grace" in E, they will go for F or higher. Not because F is "the correct key" but simply because they won't find the lowest note on their instrument when playing the tune in E. A tenor singer, however, may choose to sing the song in C or D. A guitarist at church, playing for the people to sing along, will likely choose to play the tune in G because it's both easy to sing, and it fits well with their instrument (better than F anyways). All of these choices are equally correct imho.

    – cmaster
    Aug 3 at 20:45






  • 1





    @JiK No, I don't have any source but my own experience. That experience tells me, that most untrained people are most comfortable within the range C to C, be it from low C to middle C (men) or middle C to high C (women). However, church musicians themselves are trained musicians. Their range will be significantly widened on the upper end. It's plain amazing, how high tones you can get out of your vocal chords with a bit of technique. As such, the musicians typically tend to intonate a bit too high for the people to sing along.

    – cmaster
    Aug 5 at 7:01


















11















I'm wondering if it is common for people to accurately recall not only the melody of a song they know, but also the key. I've recently done a small experiment where I asked a few of my friends to hum the beginning of some popular tunes, like the Star Wars theme. They hummed it somewhat correctly - the melody was ok, but they didn't all start from the same note. Also, when I played the songs on my phone, it turned out all of them were signing in the wrong key.
Is that a coincidence, or is it actually not that common for people to accurately recall the key? Of course I'm asking about those who were not musically trained.










share|improve this question
























  • How much leeway are you allowing for being in the right key?

    – Michael Curtis
    Aug 2 at 19:17






  • 8





    By "key", it sounds like you're referring to absolute pitch, and thankfully not all of us are so afflicted!

    – chrylis
    Aug 3 at 5:08






  • 2





    Singers will often sing in a different key than the song was written to put it in their normal range. An accompanist at a competition once commented "I've played that song in all twelve keys".

    – Ross Millikan
    Aug 3 at 19:28






  • 3





    For instance, if you have someone playing a C-flute, they won't perform "Amazing grace" in E, they will go for F or higher. Not because F is "the correct key" but simply because they won't find the lowest note on their instrument when playing the tune in E. A tenor singer, however, may choose to sing the song in C or D. A guitarist at church, playing for the people to sing along, will likely choose to play the tune in G because it's both easy to sing, and it fits well with their instrument (better than F anyways). All of these choices are equally correct imho.

    – cmaster
    Aug 3 at 20:45






  • 1





    @JiK No, I don't have any source but my own experience. That experience tells me, that most untrained people are most comfortable within the range C to C, be it from low C to middle C (men) or middle C to high C (women). However, church musicians themselves are trained musicians. Their range will be significantly widened on the upper end. It's plain amazing, how high tones you can get out of your vocal chords with a bit of technique. As such, the musicians typically tend to intonate a bit too high for the people to sing along.

    – cmaster
    Aug 5 at 7:01














11












11








11


2






I'm wondering if it is common for people to accurately recall not only the melody of a song they know, but also the key. I've recently done a small experiment where I asked a few of my friends to hum the beginning of some popular tunes, like the Star Wars theme. They hummed it somewhat correctly - the melody was ok, but they didn't all start from the same note. Also, when I played the songs on my phone, it turned out all of them were signing in the wrong key.
Is that a coincidence, or is it actually not that common for people to accurately recall the key? Of course I'm asking about those who were not musically trained.










share|improve this question














I'm wondering if it is common for people to accurately recall not only the melody of a song they know, but also the key. I've recently done a small experiment where I asked a few of my friends to hum the beginning of some popular tunes, like the Star Wars theme. They hummed it somewhat correctly - the melody was ok, but they didn't all start from the same note. Also, when I played the songs on my phone, it turned out all of them were signing in the wrong key.
Is that a coincidence, or is it actually not that common for people to accurately recall the key? Of course I'm asking about those who were not musically trained.







theory key pitch






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked Aug 2 at 16:17









Tomasz KasperczykTomasz Kasperczyk

1585 bronze badges




1585 bronze badges















  • How much leeway are you allowing for being in the right key?

    – Michael Curtis
    Aug 2 at 19:17






  • 8





    By "key", it sounds like you're referring to absolute pitch, and thankfully not all of us are so afflicted!

    – chrylis
    Aug 3 at 5:08






  • 2





    Singers will often sing in a different key than the song was written to put it in their normal range. An accompanist at a competition once commented "I've played that song in all twelve keys".

    – Ross Millikan
    Aug 3 at 19:28






  • 3





    For instance, if you have someone playing a C-flute, they won't perform "Amazing grace" in E, they will go for F or higher. Not because F is "the correct key" but simply because they won't find the lowest note on their instrument when playing the tune in E. A tenor singer, however, may choose to sing the song in C or D. A guitarist at church, playing for the people to sing along, will likely choose to play the tune in G because it's both easy to sing, and it fits well with their instrument (better than F anyways). All of these choices are equally correct imho.

    – cmaster
    Aug 3 at 20:45






  • 1





    @JiK No, I don't have any source but my own experience. That experience tells me, that most untrained people are most comfortable within the range C to C, be it from low C to middle C (men) or middle C to high C (women). However, church musicians themselves are trained musicians. Their range will be significantly widened on the upper end. It's plain amazing, how high tones you can get out of your vocal chords with a bit of technique. As such, the musicians typically tend to intonate a bit too high for the people to sing along.

    – cmaster
    Aug 5 at 7:01


















  • How much leeway are you allowing for being in the right key?

    – Michael Curtis
    Aug 2 at 19:17






  • 8





    By "key", it sounds like you're referring to absolute pitch, and thankfully not all of us are so afflicted!

    – chrylis
    Aug 3 at 5:08






  • 2





    Singers will often sing in a different key than the song was written to put it in their normal range. An accompanist at a competition once commented "I've played that song in all twelve keys".

    – Ross Millikan
    Aug 3 at 19:28






  • 3





    For instance, if you have someone playing a C-flute, they won't perform "Amazing grace" in E, they will go for F or higher. Not because F is "the correct key" but simply because they won't find the lowest note on their instrument when playing the tune in E. A tenor singer, however, may choose to sing the song in C or D. A guitarist at church, playing for the people to sing along, will likely choose to play the tune in G because it's both easy to sing, and it fits well with their instrument (better than F anyways). All of these choices are equally correct imho.

    – cmaster
    Aug 3 at 20:45






  • 1





    @JiK No, I don't have any source but my own experience. That experience tells me, that most untrained people are most comfortable within the range C to C, be it from low C to middle C (men) or middle C to high C (women). However, church musicians themselves are trained musicians. Their range will be significantly widened on the upper end. It's plain amazing, how high tones you can get out of your vocal chords with a bit of technique. As such, the musicians typically tend to intonate a bit too high for the people to sing along.

    – cmaster
    Aug 5 at 7:01

















How much leeway are you allowing for being in the right key?

– Michael Curtis
Aug 2 at 19:17





How much leeway are you allowing for being in the right key?

– Michael Curtis
Aug 2 at 19:17




8




8





By "key", it sounds like you're referring to absolute pitch, and thankfully not all of us are so afflicted!

– chrylis
Aug 3 at 5:08





By "key", it sounds like you're referring to absolute pitch, and thankfully not all of us are so afflicted!

– chrylis
Aug 3 at 5:08




2




2





Singers will often sing in a different key than the song was written to put it in their normal range. An accompanist at a competition once commented "I've played that song in all twelve keys".

– Ross Millikan
Aug 3 at 19:28





Singers will often sing in a different key than the song was written to put it in their normal range. An accompanist at a competition once commented "I've played that song in all twelve keys".

– Ross Millikan
Aug 3 at 19:28




3




3





For instance, if you have someone playing a C-flute, they won't perform "Amazing grace" in E, they will go for F or higher. Not because F is "the correct key" but simply because they won't find the lowest note on their instrument when playing the tune in E. A tenor singer, however, may choose to sing the song in C or D. A guitarist at church, playing for the people to sing along, will likely choose to play the tune in G because it's both easy to sing, and it fits well with their instrument (better than F anyways). All of these choices are equally correct imho.

– cmaster
Aug 3 at 20:45





For instance, if you have someone playing a C-flute, they won't perform "Amazing grace" in E, they will go for F or higher. Not because F is "the correct key" but simply because they won't find the lowest note on their instrument when playing the tune in E. A tenor singer, however, may choose to sing the song in C or D. A guitarist at church, playing for the people to sing along, will likely choose to play the tune in G because it's both easy to sing, and it fits well with their instrument (better than F anyways). All of these choices are equally correct imho.

– cmaster
Aug 3 at 20:45




1




1





@JiK No, I don't have any source but my own experience. That experience tells me, that most untrained people are most comfortable within the range C to C, be it from low C to middle C (men) or middle C to high C (women). However, church musicians themselves are trained musicians. Their range will be significantly widened on the upper end. It's plain amazing, how high tones you can get out of your vocal chords with a bit of technique. As such, the musicians typically tend to intonate a bit too high for the people to sing along.

– cmaster
Aug 5 at 7:01






@JiK No, I don't have any source but my own experience. That experience tells me, that most untrained people are most comfortable within the range C to C, be it from low C to middle C (men) or middle C to high C (women). However, church musicians themselves are trained musicians. Their range will be significantly widened on the upper end. It's plain amazing, how high tones you can get out of your vocal chords with a bit of technique. As such, the musicians typically tend to intonate a bit too high for the people to sing along.

– cmaster
Aug 5 at 7:01











5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes


















15














Not many people can actually sing acapella in the key required.(Without being given a start note/chord). They may well sing the tune, in a different key (maybe +/- a m3) but to actually sing in the original key - unlikely. I suppose those with absolute pitch (who can remember or know what the 'proper' key is), will be able to do it.



Even those musically trained will not get it right all the time. Musical training doesn't encompass feats such as this. I used to sing/play with a guy who would start a song - any song - and 9 times out of 10 would be in the key we always played the song in, but I never worked out how it happened - and he didn't know either. He wasn't musically trained - just was a great singer. But that doesn't really help with an answer!



I was going to mention 'Happy Birthday', but as that can be sung in several different keys, (and does so at parties frequently, even when everyone is singing!!), so even a well-known song can't be relied upon.






share|improve this answer




















  • 8





    the problem with happy birthday is that everyone of a group at a birthday party sings it in another key ;)

    – Albrecht Hügli
    Aug 2 at 22:13






  • 2





    If there are a few actual singers in a room, they can usually pull Happy Birthday down to something reasonable within the first line or two. The usual problem is non-singers start it so high they'll have no hope of reaching the 'name line' high note.

    – Tetsujin
    Aug 3 at 16:45











  • @Tetsujin - true enough, and what usually happens. However, say it was originally in F, they wouldn't end up singing it in F. Often wonder what the 'official' key should be, or indeed, is. Bit like Br. Nat. Anthem is generally accepted as being in key G. At least I've never played it in any other key!

    – Tim
    Aug 4 at 10:11











  • tbh, I wouldn't have the faintest idea what key either of them were in 'officially' - one gets sung in every key imaginable & the other I don't think in all honesty I can say I ever actually played or even really sung along to ;)

    – Tetsujin
    Aug 4 at 10:14



















19














Most people can't do it.



Absolute pitch reference [perfect pitch] is quite rare - just as rare as people who 'couldn't carry a tune in a bucket'.



Pitch reference, the same as most skills, is on a bell-curve. Most people are in the middle - they can kick a ball in the general direction of a goal, or sing a song if it's not too hard... just don't ask them to score a penalty in the World Cup Final, nor get the exact pitch reference for any song.



From comments...

Practised singers, even those without perfect pitch, can 'feel' the reference in their throat. I can do it & I really don't have anything close to perfect pitch - I just know when a song I sing frequently is 'right' or 'wrong', by the 'feel'.






share|improve this answer






















  • 1





    A comment on your comments - I would say that skill is more like muscle memory, since you need to have practice singing a particular song to recall the correct pitch. It's a different though related skill-set to identify the correct pitch for a song you hear often but do not actually sing.

    – David K
    Aug 5 at 14:17


















13














Even studies on the Levitin Effect, a phenomenon that posits that people can tend to accurately recall the key of a familiar melody, discover that at least a significant minority of people cannot produce this effect (see here for an example), and this effect has been found to be hard to reproduce. So, I'd say that it's actually not that common for people to accurately recall the key.






share|improve this answer

























  • Sidenote: 12tone (YouTube channel) explaining the Levitin Effect.

    – Andrew T.
    Aug 5 at 15:31



















10














You are asking for the well known and understood difference between "Absolute pitch" and "Relative pitch" ("słuch absolutny" and "słuch względny" in Polish).



Some people's heads are wired to understand each note in a melody as a separate entity (absolute pitch), but most people's brains understand melody as a series of differences between pitches.



Contrary to what many people think, "absolute pitch" is not really "better" than "relative" - it's different (in this sense, the name "perfect pitch" used in English is quite misleading). People with perfect pitch cannot easily transpose the tunes they know, especially if transposed by less tham a semitone (some will have problems singing to a slightly detuned guitar). Also, you can have perfect relative pitch (hear intervals with minute precision) or a lousy perfect pitch (hear the exact pitch, but not very well)






share|improve this answer
































    2














    (Not quite an answer to the original question, but in support of all the other answers...)



    As someone with absolute pitch, my experience is pretty much in line with what all the other excellent answers have said. And yes, it's rare, although it seems we don't know exactly how rare.



    If it's a common song (like "Happy Birthday") with no one official recording, then there's no key to remember in the first place, and I can sing/play it in any key.



    If I've learned the song from a single recording (or by playing/singing from written music in a particular key), then I know it in that key. I know "Let It Be" in C and "Eleanor Rigby" in E minor.



    Some songs I can transpose easily, and some I can't - I don't fully understand why. I can sing "Let It Be" in any key, but I can't do "Eleanor Rigby".



    Even if I can manage to transpose the melody, the song "feels" very different if I'm trying to play it in my head in any other key. In the original key, I get a sense of the harmony, accompaniment, and overall texture of the recording I'm familiar with. In any other key, all that stuff vanishes and I'm left with just the melody.



    If I'm trying to remember a song I haven't thought about in a long while, I might have the key off by a step or so, just like I might not remember the melody or the words quite right. But I can tell something is wrong until I "settle into" the right key.






    share|improve this answer



























    • I'm asking as a fellow person with absolute pitch--do you have more trouble transposing music with at least one key change in it? I find it's the key changes that trip me up.

      – Dekkadeci
      Aug 4 at 23:04











    • Yes, that's definitely part of it; I usually end up back in the original key after a key change. Do you find that you also have more flexibility around unusual keys? I was once surprised to learn that a recording I thought was in F was actually in F#.

      – A. S. K.
      Aug 5 at 3:29






    • 1





      I generally can handle unusual keys fine, although I start losing it with atonal music (and have to lean heavily on the mental recording(s) in my head), and it's tough for me to solidly keep the pitch of a piece that isn't tuned to A440 or anything close enough to it.

      – Dekkadeci
      Aug 5 at 3:58













    Your Answer








    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "240"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader:
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    ,
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );













    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f87368%2faccurately-recalling-the-key-can-everyone-do-it%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    5 Answers
    5






    active

    oldest

    votes








    5 Answers
    5






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    15














    Not many people can actually sing acapella in the key required.(Without being given a start note/chord). They may well sing the tune, in a different key (maybe +/- a m3) but to actually sing in the original key - unlikely. I suppose those with absolute pitch (who can remember or know what the 'proper' key is), will be able to do it.



    Even those musically trained will not get it right all the time. Musical training doesn't encompass feats such as this. I used to sing/play with a guy who would start a song - any song - and 9 times out of 10 would be in the key we always played the song in, but I never worked out how it happened - and he didn't know either. He wasn't musically trained - just was a great singer. But that doesn't really help with an answer!



    I was going to mention 'Happy Birthday', but as that can be sung in several different keys, (and does so at parties frequently, even when everyone is singing!!), so even a well-known song can't be relied upon.






    share|improve this answer




















    • 8





      the problem with happy birthday is that everyone of a group at a birthday party sings it in another key ;)

      – Albrecht Hügli
      Aug 2 at 22:13






    • 2





      If there are a few actual singers in a room, they can usually pull Happy Birthday down to something reasonable within the first line or two. The usual problem is non-singers start it so high they'll have no hope of reaching the 'name line' high note.

      – Tetsujin
      Aug 3 at 16:45











    • @Tetsujin - true enough, and what usually happens. However, say it was originally in F, they wouldn't end up singing it in F. Often wonder what the 'official' key should be, or indeed, is. Bit like Br. Nat. Anthem is generally accepted as being in key G. At least I've never played it in any other key!

      – Tim
      Aug 4 at 10:11











    • tbh, I wouldn't have the faintest idea what key either of them were in 'officially' - one gets sung in every key imaginable & the other I don't think in all honesty I can say I ever actually played or even really sung along to ;)

      – Tetsujin
      Aug 4 at 10:14
















    15














    Not many people can actually sing acapella in the key required.(Without being given a start note/chord). They may well sing the tune, in a different key (maybe +/- a m3) but to actually sing in the original key - unlikely. I suppose those with absolute pitch (who can remember or know what the 'proper' key is), will be able to do it.



    Even those musically trained will not get it right all the time. Musical training doesn't encompass feats such as this. I used to sing/play with a guy who would start a song - any song - and 9 times out of 10 would be in the key we always played the song in, but I never worked out how it happened - and he didn't know either. He wasn't musically trained - just was a great singer. But that doesn't really help with an answer!



    I was going to mention 'Happy Birthday', but as that can be sung in several different keys, (and does so at parties frequently, even when everyone is singing!!), so even a well-known song can't be relied upon.






    share|improve this answer




















    • 8





      the problem with happy birthday is that everyone of a group at a birthday party sings it in another key ;)

      – Albrecht Hügli
      Aug 2 at 22:13






    • 2





      If there are a few actual singers in a room, they can usually pull Happy Birthday down to something reasonable within the first line or two. The usual problem is non-singers start it so high they'll have no hope of reaching the 'name line' high note.

      – Tetsujin
      Aug 3 at 16:45











    • @Tetsujin - true enough, and what usually happens. However, say it was originally in F, they wouldn't end up singing it in F. Often wonder what the 'official' key should be, or indeed, is. Bit like Br. Nat. Anthem is generally accepted as being in key G. At least I've never played it in any other key!

      – Tim
      Aug 4 at 10:11











    • tbh, I wouldn't have the faintest idea what key either of them were in 'officially' - one gets sung in every key imaginable & the other I don't think in all honesty I can say I ever actually played or even really sung along to ;)

      – Tetsujin
      Aug 4 at 10:14














    15












    15








    15







    Not many people can actually sing acapella in the key required.(Without being given a start note/chord). They may well sing the tune, in a different key (maybe +/- a m3) but to actually sing in the original key - unlikely. I suppose those with absolute pitch (who can remember or know what the 'proper' key is), will be able to do it.



    Even those musically trained will not get it right all the time. Musical training doesn't encompass feats such as this. I used to sing/play with a guy who would start a song - any song - and 9 times out of 10 would be in the key we always played the song in, but I never worked out how it happened - and he didn't know either. He wasn't musically trained - just was a great singer. But that doesn't really help with an answer!



    I was going to mention 'Happy Birthday', but as that can be sung in several different keys, (and does so at parties frequently, even when everyone is singing!!), so even a well-known song can't be relied upon.






    share|improve this answer













    Not many people can actually sing acapella in the key required.(Without being given a start note/chord). They may well sing the tune, in a different key (maybe +/- a m3) but to actually sing in the original key - unlikely. I suppose those with absolute pitch (who can remember or know what the 'proper' key is), will be able to do it.



    Even those musically trained will not get it right all the time. Musical training doesn't encompass feats such as this. I used to sing/play with a guy who would start a song - any song - and 9 times out of 10 would be in the key we always played the song in, but I never worked out how it happened - and he didn't know either. He wasn't musically trained - just was a great singer. But that doesn't really help with an answer!



    I was going to mention 'Happy Birthday', but as that can be sung in several different keys, (and does so at parties frequently, even when everyone is singing!!), so even a well-known song can't be relied upon.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered Aug 2 at 16:41









    TimTim

    112k11 gold badges110 silver badges283 bronze badges




    112k11 gold badges110 silver badges283 bronze badges










    • 8





      the problem with happy birthday is that everyone of a group at a birthday party sings it in another key ;)

      – Albrecht Hügli
      Aug 2 at 22:13






    • 2





      If there are a few actual singers in a room, they can usually pull Happy Birthday down to something reasonable within the first line or two. The usual problem is non-singers start it so high they'll have no hope of reaching the 'name line' high note.

      – Tetsujin
      Aug 3 at 16:45











    • @Tetsujin - true enough, and what usually happens. However, say it was originally in F, they wouldn't end up singing it in F. Often wonder what the 'official' key should be, or indeed, is. Bit like Br. Nat. Anthem is generally accepted as being in key G. At least I've never played it in any other key!

      – Tim
      Aug 4 at 10:11











    • tbh, I wouldn't have the faintest idea what key either of them were in 'officially' - one gets sung in every key imaginable & the other I don't think in all honesty I can say I ever actually played or even really sung along to ;)

      – Tetsujin
      Aug 4 at 10:14













    • 8





      the problem with happy birthday is that everyone of a group at a birthday party sings it in another key ;)

      – Albrecht Hügli
      Aug 2 at 22:13






    • 2





      If there are a few actual singers in a room, they can usually pull Happy Birthday down to something reasonable within the first line or two. The usual problem is non-singers start it so high they'll have no hope of reaching the 'name line' high note.

      – Tetsujin
      Aug 3 at 16:45











    • @Tetsujin - true enough, and what usually happens. However, say it was originally in F, they wouldn't end up singing it in F. Often wonder what the 'official' key should be, or indeed, is. Bit like Br. Nat. Anthem is generally accepted as being in key G. At least I've never played it in any other key!

      – Tim
      Aug 4 at 10:11











    • tbh, I wouldn't have the faintest idea what key either of them were in 'officially' - one gets sung in every key imaginable & the other I don't think in all honesty I can say I ever actually played or even really sung along to ;)

      – Tetsujin
      Aug 4 at 10:14








    8




    8





    the problem with happy birthday is that everyone of a group at a birthday party sings it in another key ;)

    – Albrecht Hügli
    Aug 2 at 22:13





    the problem with happy birthday is that everyone of a group at a birthday party sings it in another key ;)

    – Albrecht Hügli
    Aug 2 at 22:13




    2




    2





    If there are a few actual singers in a room, they can usually pull Happy Birthday down to something reasonable within the first line or two. The usual problem is non-singers start it so high they'll have no hope of reaching the 'name line' high note.

    – Tetsujin
    Aug 3 at 16:45





    If there are a few actual singers in a room, they can usually pull Happy Birthday down to something reasonable within the first line or two. The usual problem is non-singers start it so high they'll have no hope of reaching the 'name line' high note.

    – Tetsujin
    Aug 3 at 16:45













    @Tetsujin - true enough, and what usually happens. However, say it was originally in F, they wouldn't end up singing it in F. Often wonder what the 'official' key should be, or indeed, is. Bit like Br. Nat. Anthem is generally accepted as being in key G. At least I've never played it in any other key!

    – Tim
    Aug 4 at 10:11





    @Tetsujin - true enough, and what usually happens. However, say it was originally in F, they wouldn't end up singing it in F. Often wonder what the 'official' key should be, or indeed, is. Bit like Br. Nat. Anthem is generally accepted as being in key G. At least I've never played it in any other key!

    – Tim
    Aug 4 at 10:11













    tbh, I wouldn't have the faintest idea what key either of them were in 'officially' - one gets sung in every key imaginable & the other I don't think in all honesty I can say I ever actually played or even really sung along to ;)

    – Tetsujin
    Aug 4 at 10:14






    tbh, I wouldn't have the faintest idea what key either of them were in 'officially' - one gets sung in every key imaginable & the other I don't think in all honesty I can say I ever actually played or even really sung along to ;)

    – Tetsujin
    Aug 4 at 10:14














    19














    Most people can't do it.



    Absolute pitch reference [perfect pitch] is quite rare - just as rare as people who 'couldn't carry a tune in a bucket'.



    Pitch reference, the same as most skills, is on a bell-curve. Most people are in the middle - they can kick a ball in the general direction of a goal, or sing a song if it's not too hard... just don't ask them to score a penalty in the World Cup Final, nor get the exact pitch reference for any song.



    From comments...

    Practised singers, even those without perfect pitch, can 'feel' the reference in their throat. I can do it & I really don't have anything close to perfect pitch - I just know when a song I sing frequently is 'right' or 'wrong', by the 'feel'.






    share|improve this answer






















    • 1





      A comment on your comments - I would say that skill is more like muscle memory, since you need to have practice singing a particular song to recall the correct pitch. It's a different though related skill-set to identify the correct pitch for a song you hear often but do not actually sing.

      – David K
      Aug 5 at 14:17















    19














    Most people can't do it.



    Absolute pitch reference [perfect pitch] is quite rare - just as rare as people who 'couldn't carry a tune in a bucket'.



    Pitch reference, the same as most skills, is on a bell-curve. Most people are in the middle - they can kick a ball in the general direction of a goal, or sing a song if it's not too hard... just don't ask them to score a penalty in the World Cup Final, nor get the exact pitch reference for any song.



    From comments...

    Practised singers, even those without perfect pitch, can 'feel' the reference in their throat. I can do it & I really don't have anything close to perfect pitch - I just know when a song I sing frequently is 'right' or 'wrong', by the 'feel'.






    share|improve this answer






















    • 1





      A comment on your comments - I would say that skill is more like muscle memory, since you need to have practice singing a particular song to recall the correct pitch. It's a different though related skill-set to identify the correct pitch for a song you hear often but do not actually sing.

      – David K
      Aug 5 at 14:17













    19












    19








    19







    Most people can't do it.



    Absolute pitch reference [perfect pitch] is quite rare - just as rare as people who 'couldn't carry a tune in a bucket'.



    Pitch reference, the same as most skills, is on a bell-curve. Most people are in the middle - they can kick a ball in the general direction of a goal, or sing a song if it's not too hard... just don't ask them to score a penalty in the World Cup Final, nor get the exact pitch reference for any song.



    From comments...

    Practised singers, even those without perfect pitch, can 'feel' the reference in their throat. I can do it & I really don't have anything close to perfect pitch - I just know when a song I sing frequently is 'right' or 'wrong', by the 'feel'.






    share|improve this answer















    Most people can't do it.



    Absolute pitch reference [perfect pitch] is quite rare - just as rare as people who 'couldn't carry a tune in a bucket'.



    Pitch reference, the same as most skills, is on a bell-curve. Most people are in the middle - they can kick a ball in the general direction of a goal, or sing a song if it's not too hard... just don't ask them to score a penalty in the World Cup Final, nor get the exact pitch reference for any song.



    From comments...

    Practised singers, even those without perfect pitch, can 'feel' the reference in their throat. I can do it & I really don't have anything close to perfect pitch - I just know when a song I sing frequently is 'right' or 'wrong', by the 'feel'.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited Aug 2 at 16:47

























    answered Aug 2 at 16:41









    TetsujinTetsujin

    9,9342 gold badges21 silver badges44 bronze badges




    9,9342 gold badges21 silver badges44 bronze badges










    • 1





      A comment on your comments - I would say that skill is more like muscle memory, since you need to have practice singing a particular song to recall the correct pitch. It's a different though related skill-set to identify the correct pitch for a song you hear often but do not actually sing.

      – David K
      Aug 5 at 14:17












    • 1





      A comment on your comments - I would say that skill is more like muscle memory, since you need to have practice singing a particular song to recall the correct pitch. It's a different though related skill-set to identify the correct pitch for a song you hear often but do not actually sing.

      – David K
      Aug 5 at 14:17







    1




    1





    A comment on your comments - I would say that skill is more like muscle memory, since you need to have practice singing a particular song to recall the correct pitch. It's a different though related skill-set to identify the correct pitch for a song you hear often but do not actually sing.

    – David K
    Aug 5 at 14:17





    A comment on your comments - I would say that skill is more like muscle memory, since you need to have practice singing a particular song to recall the correct pitch. It's a different though related skill-set to identify the correct pitch for a song you hear often but do not actually sing.

    – David K
    Aug 5 at 14:17











    13














    Even studies on the Levitin Effect, a phenomenon that posits that people can tend to accurately recall the key of a familiar melody, discover that at least a significant minority of people cannot produce this effect (see here for an example), and this effect has been found to be hard to reproduce. So, I'd say that it's actually not that common for people to accurately recall the key.






    share|improve this answer

























    • Sidenote: 12tone (YouTube channel) explaining the Levitin Effect.

      – Andrew T.
      Aug 5 at 15:31
















    13














    Even studies on the Levitin Effect, a phenomenon that posits that people can tend to accurately recall the key of a familiar melody, discover that at least a significant minority of people cannot produce this effect (see here for an example), and this effect has been found to be hard to reproduce. So, I'd say that it's actually not that common for people to accurately recall the key.






    share|improve this answer

























    • Sidenote: 12tone (YouTube channel) explaining the Levitin Effect.

      – Andrew T.
      Aug 5 at 15:31














    13












    13








    13







    Even studies on the Levitin Effect, a phenomenon that posits that people can tend to accurately recall the key of a familiar melody, discover that at least a significant minority of people cannot produce this effect (see here for an example), and this effect has been found to be hard to reproduce. So, I'd say that it's actually not that common for people to accurately recall the key.






    share|improve this answer













    Even studies on the Levitin Effect, a phenomenon that posits that people can tend to accurately recall the key of a familiar melody, discover that at least a significant minority of people cannot produce this effect (see here for an example), and this effect has been found to be hard to reproduce. So, I'd say that it's actually not that common for people to accurately recall the key.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered Aug 2 at 18:51









    DekkadeciDekkadeci

    6,5992 gold badges17 silver badges30 bronze badges




    6,5992 gold badges17 silver badges30 bronze badges















    • Sidenote: 12tone (YouTube channel) explaining the Levitin Effect.

      – Andrew T.
      Aug 5 at 15:31


















    • Sidenote: 12tone (YouTube channel) explaining the Levitin Effect.

      – Andrew T.
      Aug 5 at 15:31

















    Sidenote: 12tone (YouTube channel) explaining the Levitin Effect.

    – Andrew T.
    Aug 5 at 15:31






    Sidenote: 12tone (YouTube channel) explaining the Levitin Effect.

    – Andrew T.
    Aug 5 at 15:31












    10














    You are asking for the well known and understood difference between "Absolute pitch" and "Relative pitch" ("słuch absolutny" and "słuch względny" in Polish).



    Some people's heads are wired to understand each note in a melody as a separate entity (absolute pitch), but most people's brains understand melody as a series of differences between pitches.



    Contrary to what many people think, "absolute pitch" is not really "better" than "relative" - it's different (in this sense, the name "perfect pitch" used in English is quite misleading). People with perfect pitch cannot easily transpose the tunes they know, especially if transposed by less tham a semitone (some will have problems singing to a slightly detuned guitar). Also, you can have perfect relative pitch (hear intervals with minute precision) or a lousy perfect pitch (hear the exact pitch, but not very well)






    share|improve this answer





























      10














      You are asking for the well known and understood difference between "Absolute pitch" and "Relative pitch" ("słuch absolutny" and "słuch względny" in Polish).



      Some people's heads are wired to understand each note in a melody as a separate entity (absolute pitch), but most people's brains understand melody as a series of differences between pitches.



      Contrary to what many people think, "absolute pitch" is not really "better" than "relative" - it's different (in this sense, the name "perfect pitch" used in English is quite misleading). People with perfect pitch cannot easily transpose the tunes they know, especially if transposed by less tham a semitone (some will have problems singing to a slightly detuned guitar). Also, you can have perfect relative pitch (hear intervals with minute precision) or a lousy perfect pitch (hear the exact pitch, but not very well)






      share|improve this answer



























        10












        10








        10







        You are asking for the well known and understood difference between "Absolute pitch" and "Relative pitch" ("słuch absolutny" and "słuch względny" in Polish).



        Some people's heads are wired to understand each note in a melody as a separate entity (absolute pitch), but most people's brains understand melody as a series of differences between pitches.



        Contrary to what many people think, "absolute pitch" is not really "better" than "relative" - it's different (in this sense, the name "perfect pitch" used in English is quite misleading). People with perfect pitch cannot easily transpose the tunes they know, especially if transposed by less tham a semitone (some will have problems singing to a slightly detuned guitar). Also, you can have perfect relative pitch (hear intervals with minute precision) or a lousy perfect pitch (hear the exact pitch, but not very well)






        share|improve this answer













        You are asking for the well known and understood difference between "Absolute pitch" and "Relative pitch" ("słuch absolutny" and "słuch względny" in Polish).



        Some people's heads are wired to understand each note in a melody as a separate entity (absolute pitch), but most people's brains understand melody as a series of differences between pitches.



        Contrary to what many people think, "absolute pitch" is not really "better" than "relative" - it's different (in this sense, the name "perfect pitch" used in English is quite misleading). People with perfect pitch cannot easily transpose the tunes they know, especially if transposed by less tham a semitone (some will have problems singing to a slightly detuned guitar). Also, you can have perfect relative pitch (hear intervals with minute precision) or a lousy perfect pitch (hear the exact pitch, but not very well)







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered Aug 2 at 18:22









        fdregerfdreger

        8805 silver badges9 bronze badges




        8805 silver badges9 bronze badges
























            2














            (Not quite an answer to the original question, but in support of all the other answers...)



            As someone with absolute pitch, my experience is pretty much in line with what all the other excellent answers have said. And yes, it's rare, although it seems we don't know exactly how rare.



            If it's a common song (like "Happy Birthday") with no one official recording, then there's no key to remember in the first place, and I can sing/play it in any key.



            If I've learned the song from a single recording (or by playing/singing from written music in a particular key), then I know it in that key. I know "Let It Be" in C and "Eleanor Rigby" in E minor.



            Some songs I can transpose easily, and some I can't - I don't fully understand why. I can sing "Let It Be" in any key, but I can't do "Eleanor Rigby".



            Even if I can manage to transpose the melody, the song "feels" very different if I'm trying to play it in my head in any other key. In the original key, I get a sense of the harmony, accompaniment, and overall texture of the recording I'm familiar with. In any other key, all that stuff vanishes and I'm left with just the melody.



            If I'm trying to remember a song I haven't thought about in a long while, I might have the key off by a step or so, just like I might not remember the melody or the words quite right. But I can tell something is wrong until I "settle into" the right key.






            share|improve this answer



























            • I'm asking as a fellow person with absolute pitch--do you have more trouble transposing music with at least one key change in it? I find it's the key changes that trip me up.

              – Dekkadeci
              Aug 4 at 23:04











            • Yes, that's definitely part of it; I usually end up back in the original key after a key change. Do you find that you also have more flexibility around unusual keys? I was once surprised to learn that a recording I thought was in F was actually in F#.

              – A. S. K.
              Aug 5 at 3:29






            • 1





              I generally can handle unusual keys fine, although I start losing it with atonal music (and have to lean heavily on the mental recording(s) in my head), and it's tough for me to solidly keep the pitch of a piece that isn't tuned to A440 or anything close enough to it.

              – Dekkadeci
              Aug 5 at 3:58















            2














            (Not quite an answer to the original question, but in support of all the other answers...)



            As someone with absolute pitch, my experience is pretty much in line with what all the other excellent answers have said. And yes, it's rare, although it seems we don't know exactly how rare.



            If it's a common song (like "Happy Birthday") with no one official recording, then there's no key to remember in the first place, and I can sing/play it in any key.



            If I've learned the song from a single recording (or by playing/singing from written music in a particular key), then I know it in that key. I know "Let It Be" in C and "Eleanor Rigby" in E minor.



            Some songs I can transpose easily, and some I can't - I don't fully understand why. I can sing "Let It Be" in any key, but I can't do "Eleanor Rigby".



            Even if I can manage to transpose the melody, the song "feels" very different if I'm trying to play it in my head in any other key. In the original key, I get a sense of the harmony, accompaniment, and overall texture of the recording I'm familiar with. In any other key, all that stuff vanishes and I'm left with just the melody.



            If I'm trying to remember a song I haven't thought about in a long while, I might have the key off by a step or so, just like I might not remember the melody or the words quite right. But I can tell something is wrong until I "settle into" the right key.






            share|improve this answer



























            • I'm asking as a fellow person with absolute pitch--do you have more trouble transposing music with at least one key change in it? I find it's the key changes that trip me up.

              – Dekkadeci
              Aug 4 at 23:04











            • Yes, that's definitely part of it; I usually end up back in the original key after a key change. Do you find that you also have more flexibility around unusual keys? I was once surprised to learn that a recording I thought was in F was actually in F#.

              – A. S. K.
              Aug 5 at 3:29






            • 1





              I generally can handle unusual keys fine, although I start losing it with atonal music (and have to lean heavily on the mental recording(s) in my head), and it's tough for me to solidly keep the pitch of a piece that isn't tuned to A440 or anything close enough to it.

              – Dekkadeci
              Aug 5 at 3:58













            2












            2








            2







            (Not quite an answer to the original question, but in support of all the other answers...)



            As someone with absolute pitch, my experience is pretty much in line with what all the other excellent answers have said. And yes, it's rare, although it seems we don't know exactly how rare.



            If it's a common song (like "Happy Birthday") with no one official recording, then there's no key to remember in the first place, and I can sing/play it in any key.



            If I've learned the song from a single recording (or by playing/singing from written music in a particular key), then I know it in that key. I know "Let It Be" in C and "Eleanor Rigby" in E minor.



            Some songs I can transpose easily, and some I can't - I don't fully understand why. I can sing "Let It Be" in any key, but I can't do "Eleanor Rigby".



            Even if I can manage to transpose the melody, the song "feels" very different if I'm trying to play it in my head in any other key. In the original key, I get a sense of the harmony, accompaniment, and overall texture of the recording I'm familiar with. In any other key, all that stuff vanishes and I'm left with just the melody.



            If I'm trying to remember a song I haven't thought about in a long while, I might have the key off by a step or so, just like I might not remember the melody or the words quite right. But I can tell something is wrong until I "settle into" the right key.






            share|improve this answer















            (Not quite an answer to the original question, but in support of all the other answers...)



            As someone with absolute pitch, my experience is pretty much in line with what all the other excellent answers have said. And yes, it's rare, although it seems we don't know exactly how rare.



            If it's a common song (like "Happy Birthday") with no one official recording, then there's no key to remember in the first place, and I can sing/play it in any key.



            If I've learned the song from a single recording (or by playing/singing from written music in a particular key), then I know it in that key. I know "Let It Be" in C and "Eleanor Rigby" in E minor.



            Some songs I can transpose easily, and some I can't - I don't fully understand why. I can sing "Let It Be" in any key, but I can't do "Eleanor Rigby".



            Even if I can manage to transpose the melody, the song "feels" very different if I'm trying to play it in my head in any other key. In the original key, I get a sense of the harmony, accompaniment, and overall texture of the recording I'm familiar with. In any other key, all that stuff vanishes and I'm left with just the melody.



            If I'm trying to remember a song I haven't thought about in a long while, I might have the key off by a step or so, just like I might not remember the melody or the words quite right. But I can tell something is wrong until I "settle into" the right key.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited Aug 4 at 20:03

























            answered Aug 4 at 19:53









            A. S. K.A. S. K.

            1214 bronze badges




            1214 bronze badges















            • I'm asking as a fellow person with absolute pitch--do you have more trouble transposing music with at least one key change in it? I find it's the key changes that trip me up.

              – Dekkadeci
              Aug 4 at 23:04











            • Yes, that's definitely part of it; I usually end up back in the original key after a key change. Do you find that you also have more flexibility around unusual keys? I was once surprised to learn that a recording I thought was in F was actually in F#.

              – A. S. K.
              Aug 5 at 3:29






            • 1





              I generally can handle unusual keys fine, although I start losing it with atonal music (and have to lean heavily on the mental recording(s) in my head), and it's tough for me to solidly keep the pitch of a piece that isn't tuned to A440 or anything close enough to it.

              – Dekkadeci
              Aug 5 at 3:58

















            • I'm asking as a fellow person with absolute pitch--do you have more trouble transposing music with at least one key change in it? I find it's the key changes that trip me up.

              – Dekkadeci
              Aug 4 at 23:04











            • Yes, that's definitely part of it; I usually end up back in the original key after a key change. Do you find that you also have more flexibility around unusual keys? I was once surprised to learn that a recording I thought was in F was actually in F#.

              – A. S. K.
              Aug 5 at 3:29






            • 1





              I generally can handle unusual keys fine, although I start losing it with atonal music (and have to lean heavily on the mental recording(s) in my head), and it's tough for me to solidly keep the pitch of a piece that isn't tuned to A440 or anything close enough to it.

              – Dekkadeci
              Aug 5 at 3:58
















            I'm asking as a fellow person with absolute pitch--do you have more trouble transposing music with at least one key change in it? I find it's the key changes that trip me up.

            – Dekkadeci
            Aug 4 at 23:04





            I'm asking as a fellow person with absolute pitch--do you have more trouble transposing music with at least one key change in it? I find it's the key changes that trip me up.

            – Dekkadeci
            Aug 4 at 23:04













            Yes, that's definitely part of it; I usually end up back in the original key after a key change. Do you find that you also have more flexibility around unusual keys? I was once surprised to learn that a recording I thought was in F was actually in F#.

            – A. S. K.
            Aug 5 at 3:29





            Yes, that's definitely part of it; I usually end up back in the original key after a key change. Do you find that you also have more flexibility around unusual keys? I was once surprised to learn that a recording I thought was in F was actually in F#.

            – A. S. K.
            Aug 5 at 3:29




            1




            1





            I generally can handle unusual keys fine, although I start losing it with atonal music (and have to lean heavily on the mental recording(s) in my head), and it's tough for me to solidly keep the pitch of a piece that isn't tuned to A440 or anything close enough to it.

            – Dekkadeci
            Aug 5 at 3:58





            I generally can handle unusual keys fine, although I start losing it with atonal music (and have to lean heavily on the mental recording(s) in my head), and it's tough for me to solidly keep the pitch of a piece that isn't tuned to A440 or anything close enough to it.

            – Dekkadeci
            Aug 5 at 3:58

















            draft saved

            draft discarded
















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to Music: Practice & Theory Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid


            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f87368%2faccurately-recalling-the-key-can-everyone-do-it%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            Category:9 (number) SubcategoriesMedia in category "9 (number)"Navigation menuUpload mediaGND ID: 4485639-8Library of Congress authority ID: sh85091979ReasonatorScholiaStatistics

            Circuit construction for execution of conditional statements using least significant bitHow are two different registers being used as “control”?How exactly is the stated composite state of the two registers being produced using the $R_zz$ controlled rotations?Efficiently performing controlled rotations in HHLWould this quantum algorithm implementation work?How to prepare a superposed states of odd integers from $1$ to $sqrtN$?Why is this implementation of the order finding algorithm not working?Circuit construction for Hamiltonian simulationHow can I invert the least significant bit of a certain term of a superposed state?Implementing an oracleImplementing a controlled sum operation

            Magento 2 “No Payment Methods” in Admin New OrderHow to integrate Paypal Express Checkout with the Magento APIMagento 1.5 - Sales > Order > edit order and shipping methods disappearAuto Invoice Check/Money Order Payment methodAdd more simple payment methods?Shipping methods not showingWhat should I do to change payment methods if changing the configuration has no effects?1.9 - No Payment Methods showing upMy Payment Methods not Showing for downloadable/virtual product when checkout?Magento2 API to access internal payment methodHow to call an existing payment methods in the registration form?