Do working physicists consider Newtonian mechanics to be “falsified”? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Newtonian gravity vs. general relativity: exactly how wrong is Newton?History of interpretation of Newton's first lawTrouble with classical mechanics self-learning (How to avoid going down the Physics rabbit hole?)Importance of the Galilean principle of relativityWhat is the difference between translation and rotation, in the Lagrangian/Hamiltonian frameworks?Did Newton conduct any experiments to find something called momentum, or was he such a great genius that he was able to spot it intuitively?How to prepare mental skills to understand relativity theory?Classical Mechanics: Continuous or Discrete universe?How are theories selected?How to teach modeling physical systems?Can energy be satisfactorily defined and explained in Newtonian terms?
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Do working physicists consider Newtonian mechanics to be “falsified”?
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Newtonian gravity vs. general relativity: exactly how wrong is Newton?History of interpretation of Newton's first lawTrouble with classical mechanics self-learning (How to avoid going down the Physics rabbit hole?)Importance of the Galilean principle of relativityWhat is the difference between translation and rotation, in the Lagrangian/Hamiltonian frameworks?Did Newton conduct any experiments to find something called momentum, or was he such a great genius that he was able to spot it intuitively?How to prepare mental skills to understand relativity theory?Classical Mechanics: Continuous or Discrete universe?How are theories selected?How to teach modeling physical systems?Can energy be satisfactorily defined and explained in Newtonian terms?
$begingroup$
In the comments for the question Falsification in Math vs Science, a dispute around the question of "Have Newtonian Mechanics been falsified?"
That's a bit of a vague question, so attempting to narrow it a bit:
Are any of Newton's three laws considered to be 'falsified theories' by any 'working physicists'? If so, what evidence do they have that they believe falsifies those three theories?
If the three laws are still unfalsified, are there any other concepts that form a part of "Newtonian Mechanics" that we consider to be falsified?
newtonian-mechanics models
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Pod is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
In the comments for the question Falsification in Math vs Science, a dispute around the question of "Have Newtonian Mechanics been falsified?"
That's a bit of a vague question, so attempting to narrow it a bit:
Are any of Newton's three laws considered to be 'falsified theories' by any 'working physicists'? If so, what evidence do they have that they believe falsifies those three theories?
If the three laws are still unfalsified, are there any other concepts that form a part of "Newtonian Mechanics" that we consider to be falsified?
newtonian-mechanics models
New contributor
Pod is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Related: physics.stackexchange.com/questions/52165/…
$endgroup$
– user3067860
2 days ago
8
$begingroup$
"All models are wrong, but some are useful"
$endgroup$
– Eric Duminil
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
@EricDuminil The quotes by statisticians better be reserved for statistics. (-:
$endgroup$
– Dvij Mankad
22 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In the comments for the question Falsification in Math vs Science, a dispute around the question of "Have Newtonian Mechanics been falsified?"
That's a bit of a vague question, so attempting to narrow it a bit:
Are any of Newton's three laws considered to be 'falsified theories' by any 'working physicists'? If so, what evidence do they have that they believe falsifies those three theories?
If the three laws are still unfalsified, are there any other concepts that form a part of "Newtonian Mechanics" that we consider to be falsified?
newtonian-mechanics models
New contributor
Pod is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
In the comments for the question Falsification in Math vs Science, a dispute around the question of "Have Newtonian Mechanics been falsified?"
That's a bit of a vague question, so attempting to narrow it a bit:
Are any of Newton's three laws considered to be 'falsified theories' by any 'working physicists'? If so, what evidence do they have that they believe falsifies those three theories?
If the three laws are still unfalsified, are there any other concepts that form a part of "Newtonian Mechanics" that we consider to be falsified?
newtonian-mechanics models
newtonian-mechanics models
New contributor
Pod is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Pod is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 23 hours ago
MarianD
262128
262128
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asked 2 days ago
PodPod
21225
21225
New contributor
Pod is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Pod is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Pod is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$begingroup$
Related: physics.stackexchange.com/questions/52165/…
$endgroup$
– user3067860
2 days ago
8
$begingroup$
"All models are wrong, but some are useful"
$endgroup$
– Eric Duminil
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
@EricDuminil The quotes by statisticians better be reserved for statistics. (-:
$endgroup$
– Dvij Mankad
22 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Related: physics.stackexchange.com/questions/52165/…
$endgroup$
– user3067860
2 days ago
8
$begingroup$
"All models are wrong, but some are useful"
$endgroup$
– Eric Duminil
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
@EricDuminil The quotes by statisticians better be reserved for statistics. (-:
$endgroup$
– Dvij Mankad
22 hours ago
$begingroup$
Related: physics.stackexchange.com/questions/52165/…
$endgroup$
– user3067860
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Related: physics.stackexchange.com/questions/52165/…
$endgroup$
– user3067860
2 days ago
8
8
$begingroup$
"All models are wrong, but some are useful"
$endgroup$
– Eric Duminil
2 days ago
$begingroup$
"All models are wrong, but some are useful"
$endgroup$
– Eric Duminil
2 days ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@EricDuminil The quotes by statisticians better be reserved for statistics. (-:
$endgroup$
– Dvij Mankad
22 hours ago
$begingroup$
@EricDuminil The quotes by statisticians better be reserved for statistics. (-:
$endgroup$
– Dvij Mankad
22 hours ago
add a comment |
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
"Falsified" is more philosophical than scientific distinction.
Newton laws have been falsified somehow, but we still use them, since usually they are a good approximation, and are easier to use than relativity or quantum mechanics.
The "action at distance" of Newton potentials has been falsified (finite speed of light...) but again, we use it every day.
So, in practical terms, no, Newton laws are still not falsified, in the sense that are not totally discredited in the scientific community. Classical mechanics is still in the curriculum of all universities, in a form more or less identical that 200 years ago (Before Relativity, quantum mechanics, field theory).
Most concept in physics fit more in the category of "methods" rather than "paradigms", so can be used over and over again. And all current methods and laws fails and give "false" results, when used outside their range of applicability.
The typical example of "falsified" theory is the Ptolemaic system of Sun & planets rotating around the Earth. However, philosopher usually omits the facts that:
- Ptolemaic system was experimentally pretty good at calculating planet motions
- Most mathematical and experimental methods of the new Heliocentric paradigm are the same of the old Ptolemaic
So the falsification was more on the point of view, rather than in the methods.
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
Well, we can measure that the Earth is rotating, against Ptolemaic system. But yes, we can still write ( with a lot of patience) all physics from our rotating system, with a lot of "fictitious" forces.
$endgroup$
– patta
2 days ago
17
$begingroup$
Note that both general mechanics and quantum mechanics are just as false as Newtonian mechanics, in a certain sense. QM fails to predict gravitational lensing, and GR fails to predict interference patterns in the double slit experiment. Both fail to explain how black holes preserve information. (one says they don't, the other says they don't exist)
$endgroup$
– John Dvorak
2 days ago
16
$begingroup$
@piet.t That's a common misconception. Ptolemy's model actually makes physically different predictions. Note that Venus is always between the Earth and the Sun in the Ptolemaic model, but not in reality. Galileo's observation of the phases of Venus, showing Venus fully illuminated by the sun, falsified the Ptolemaic model.
$endgroup$
– Denziloe
2 days ago
5
$begingroup$
99 c = 1 $ $pm$ 2%
$endgroup$
– patta
2 days ago
3
$begingroup$
@piet.t, the Ptolemaic system predicts that the fixed stars remain in the same relative locations at all times. Heliocentric models predict that they'll show annual variations in their positions relative to each other. High-precision observations of stellar positions show both parallax and aberration of light, which rather falsifies the Ptolemaic system (and almost all other geocentric systems).
$endgroup$
– Mark
2 days ago
|
show 9 more comments
$begingroup$
Newtonian Physics is accurate in the specific domain it was designed for
Physics is not about identifying the "truth" of the world around us. It's about creating mathematical models that allow us to accurately predict the behavior of the world.
Nobody is trying to create a perfect model, because the complexity of such a model would be infinite. Instead, we look for the boundaries of a model's accuracy - under what conditions it produces reasonable results, and the precision of the results it produces under those conditions.
You can see this more clearly with other physics models, such as the Ideal Gas Law. The Ideal Gas Law models a hugely complex system of particle collisions as a simple formula of ratios. It breaks down relatively quickly at high or low values of any of its quantities, but because we understand when and how the law breaks down, it is still useful.
At extremely large quantities (large speeds, large masses, high energies), the Newtonian model starts to break down, and we need to use a Relativistic model in order to get accurate results. But that doesn't mean that the Newtonian model is false, it just means that it is inapplicable for those conditions.
Obviously, Newton wasn't aware of the limitations to his laws when he described them. He was trying to create a universally applicable set of relations. In that sense you could argue that he failed. But I would consider the modern understanding a refinement of his laws, rather than a falsification.
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$begingroup$
Avoids answering the question...
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– Rob Jeffries
yesterday
3
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This is the modern understanding, but I don't think it is true to say that Newton's laws were designed (by Newton, at least) for slow speeds and mild gravitational curvatures.
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– Rococo
yesterday
3
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This answer would probably make more sense if "designed for" was replaced with "conceptualised within".
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– Ian Kemp
23 hours ago
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@IanKemp I would've awarded a bounty on this comment if it were a feature! I mean, of course, Newtonian mechanics was designed for everything. It was just conceptualized within a certain regime of experiments. And it is not in the spirit of science to actually design a theory for the regime in which the experimental results are already known. A scientific theory has to make predictions and that means that it necessarily has to go beyond the domain from which it takes empirical inspiration.
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– Dvij Mankad
22 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
One of the problems of Newton's law of universal gravitation, $$F_textGrav = G fracm_1m_2r^2,$$ is that it does not correctly describe the precession of Mercury's orbit. Mercury behaves slightly different than predicted by Newton's law and general relativity does a better job.
See also the corresponding Wikipedia article.
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2
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When you say "Newton's Laws", which do you mean exactly? There are laws for inertial motion, action/reaction, force as dp/dt, and gravity. I believe only the last one could be seen as needing modification by General Relativity.
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– Jens
yesterday
$begingroup$
Thanks, clarified.
$endgroup$
– Jasper
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Relativity is an extension of Newtonian physics, not either a replacement or correction. As such, relativity does not "falsify" Newtonian physics. For velocities far smaller than the speed of light (approaching zero), relativity simplifies back to the Newtonian model. For everyday use, and for everyday engineering problems, Newtonian physics is more than accurate enough. It's only when you get into more "interesting" situations that Newtonian physics fails to provide adequate solutions. The orbit of Mercury is a famous one. It's only because of Mercury's proximity to the Sun that its orbit defies accurate modeling in purely Newtonian terms. Similarly, without an understanding of relativity and relativistic effects on orbiting spacecraft, the GPS system could not work (the onboard timekeeping of the GPS satellites must be extremely precise and the very small relativisitic effects on their clocks must be accounted for). These are not everyday situations, and the relativistic effects are small, but the position of Mercury can be very precisely measured and GPS signals are timed with very high precision (light/radio travels about a foot or about 30cm in a nanosecond).
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
First of all no scientific theory can possibly be falsified. Popper was wrong. See the Quine-Duhem thesis which says that instead of rejecting the theory when a seemingly falsifying experiment occurs, one can always instead reject some underlying "auxiliary hypothesis". The perfect example of this is how when experiments came out seeming to indicate neutrinos were moving faster than light no serious scientists actually believed the neutrinos moved faster than light, rather, all the scientists rightly believed that there must have been something wrong with the experiment.
Now to answer your questions.
- Are any of Newton's three laws considered to be 'falsified theories' by any 'working physicists'? If so, what evidence do they have that they believe falsifies those three theories?
Despite what I said above the answer to your question is yes. This is because 'working physicists' are generally not good philosophers of science and many 'working physicists' incorrectly think Poppers program of falsification is correct. Working physicists aren't good philosophers of science because philosophy of science doesn't really help them do their job better and they simply may not find it that interesting, so if they hold misconceptions about philosophy of science it doesn't cause any problem whatsoever in their daily work.
- If the three laws are still unfalsified, are there any other concepts that form a part of "Newtonian Mechanics" that we consider to be falsified?
No. As I said above no physical theory can be falsified.
Here's some information about Imre Lakatos who has a better philosophy of science in my opinion than Popper.
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3
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I carry no water for Popper, but a statement like "no scientific theory is ever falsified" does not seem to me to be an actual description of what scientists think and do (as you have noted), and I question a theory of science that says that most scientists don't do science.
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– Rococo
yesterday
1
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@Rococo I won't make any claim as to what percentage of scientists will say falsification is how science works because I've never done or seen a survey. I will point out that one can be a productive scientists regardless of ones opinions about philosophy of science. I would argue that all good scientists (even those who believe in falsification) do not actually do their science by trying to falsify things. Instead they do what all good scientists do:
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– jgerber
yesterday
1
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They mess around with their theories and experiments seeing which theories work under which conditions, they try to figure out why and when theories break down, they generate new theories if necessary. The question is: does this theory explain what I am seeing? Why? Why not? What does it mean if this other theory also describes what I am seeing?
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– jgerber
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
No where did I say that most scientists don't do science. All I said was that many scientists have misconceptions about philosophy of science but I was careful to point out that a scientists thoughts on philosophy of science have very little bearing on his or her aptitude as a scientist.
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– jgerber
yesterday
$begingroup$
I apologize for mischaracterizing your position. Nonetheless, I am not personally convinced that, for example, 'all good scientists (even those who believe in falsification) do not actually do their science by trying to falsify things.' To be clear, I would neither make the extreme opposing claim that science is all about falsifying theories.
$endgroup$
– Rococo
23 hours ago
add a comment |
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5 Answers
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votes
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
active
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active
oldest
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$begingroup$
"Falsified" is more philosophical than scientific distinction.
Newton laws have been falsified somehow, but we still use them, since usually they are a good approximation, and are easier to use than relativity or quantum mechanics.
The "action at distance" of Newton potentials has been falsified (finite speed of light...) but again, we use it every day.
So, in practical terms, no, Newton laws are still not falsified, in the sense that are not totally discredited in the scientific community. Classical mechanics is still in the curriculum of all universities, in a form more or less identical that 200 years ago (Before Relativity, quantum mechanics, field theory).
Most concept in physics fit more in the category of "methods" rather than "paradigms", so can be used over and over again. And all current methods and laws fails and give "false" results, when used outside their range of applicability.
The typical example of "falsified" theory is the Ptolemaic system of Sun & planets rotating around the Earth. However, philosopher usually omits the facts that:
- Ptolemaic system was experimentally pretty good at calculating planet motions
- Most mathematical and experimental methods of the new Heliocentric paradigm are the same of the old Ptolemaic
So the falsification was more on the point of view, rather than in the methods.
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
Well, we can measure that the Earth is rotating, against Ptolemaic system. But yes, we can still write ( with a lot of patience) all physics from our rotating system, with a lot of "fictitious" forces.
$endgroup$
– patta
2 days ago
17
$begingroup$
Note that both general mechanics and quantum mechanics are just as false as Newtonian mechanics, in a certain sense. QM fails to predict gravitational lensing, and GR fails to predict interference patterns in the double slit experiment. Both fail to explain how black holes preserve information. (one says they don't, the other says they don't exist)
$endgroup$
– John Dvorak
2 days ago
16
$begingroup$
@piet.t That's a common misconception. Ptolemy's model actually makes physically different predictions. Note that Venus is always between the Earth and the Sun in the Ptolemaic model, but not in reality. Galileo's observation of the phases of Venus, showing Venus fully illuminated by the sun, falsified the Ptolemaic model.
$endgroup$
– Denziloe
2 days ago
5
$begingroup$
99 c = 1 $ $pm$ 2%
$endgroup$
– patta
2 days ago
3
$begingroup$
@piet.t, the Ptolemaic system predicts that the fixed stars remain in the same relative locations at all times. Heliocentric models predict that they'll show annual variations in their positions relative to each other. High-precision observations of stellar positions show both parallax and aberration of light, which rather falsifies the Ptolemaic system (and almost all other geocentric systems).
$endgroup$
– Mark
2 days ago
|
show 9 more comments
$begingroup$
"Falsified" is more philosophical than scientific distinction.
Newton laws have been falsified somehow, but we still use them, since usually they are a good approximation, and are easier to use than relativity or quantum mechanics.
The "action at distance" of Newton potentials has been falsified (finite speed of light...) but again, we use it every day.
So, in practical terms, no, Newton laws are still not falsified, in the sense that are not totally discredited in the scientific community. Classical mechanics is still in the curriculum of all universities, in a form more or less identical that 200 years ago (Before Relativity, quantum mechanics, field theory).
Most concept in physics fit more in the category of "methods" rather than "paradigms", so can be used over and over again. And all current methods and laws fails and give "false" results, when used outside their range of applicability.
The typical example of "falsified" theory is the Ptolemaic system of Sun & planets rotating around the Earth. However, philosopher usually omits the facts that:
- Ptolemaic system was experimentally pretty good at calculating planet motions
- Most mathematical and experimental methods of the new Heliocentric paradigm are the same of the old Ptolemaic
So the falsification was more on the point of view, rather than in the methods.
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
Well, we can measure that the Earth is rotating, against Ptolemaic system. But yes, we can still write ( with a lot of patience) all physics from our rotating system, with a lot of "fictitious" forces.
$endgroup$
– patta
2 days ago
17
$begingroup$
Note that both general mechanics and quantum mechanics are just as false as Newtonian mechanics, in a certain sense. QM fails to predict gravitational lensing, and GR fails to predict interference patterns in the double slit experiment. Both fail to explain how black holes preserve information. (one says they don't, the other says they don't exist)
$endgroup$
– John Dvorak
2 days ago
16
$begingroup$
@piet.t That's a common misconception. Ptolemy's model actually makes physically different predictions. Note that Venus is always between the Earth and the Sun in the Ptolemaic model, but not in reality. Galileo's observation of the phases of Venus, showing Venus fully illuminated by the sun, falsified the Ptolemaic model.
$endgroup$
– Denziloe
2 days ago
5
$begingroup$
99 c = 1 $ $pm$ 2%
$endgroup$
– patta
2 days ago
3
$begingroup$
@piet.t, the Ptolemaic system predicts that the fixed stars remain in the same relative locations at all times. Heliocentric models predict that they'll show annual variations in their positions relative to each other. High-precision observations of stellar positions show both parallax and aberration of light, which rather falsifies the Ptolemaic system (and almost all other geocentric systems).
$endgroup$
– Mark
2 days ago
|
show 9 more comments
$begingroup$
"Falsified" is more philosophical than scientific distinction.
Newton laws have been falsified somehow, but we still use them, since usually they are a good approximation, and are easier to use than relativity or quantum mechanics.
The "action at distance" of Newton potentials has been falsified (finite speed of light...) but again, we use it every day.
So, in practical terms, no, Newton laws are still not falsified, in the sense that are not totally discredited in the scientific community. Classical mechanics is still in the curriculum of all universities, in a form more or less identical that 200 years ago (Before Relativity, quantum mechanics, field theory).
Most concept in physics fit more in the category of "methods" rather than "paradigms", so can be used over and over again. And all current methods and laws fails and give "false" results, when used outside their range of applicability.
The typical example of "falsified" theory is the Ptolemaic system of Sun & planets rotating around the Earth. However, philosopher usually omits the facts that:
- Ptolemaic system was experimentally pretty good at calculating planet motions
- Most mathematical and experimental methods of the new Heliocentric paradigm are the same of the old Ptolemaic
So the falsification was more on the point of view, rather than in the methods.
$endgroup$
"Falsified" is more philosophical than scientific distinction.
Newton laws have been falsified somehow, but we still use them, since usually they are a good approximation, and are easier to use than relativity or quantum mechanics.
The "action at distance" of Newton potentials has been falsified (finite speed of light...) but again, we use it every day.
So, in practical terms, no, Newton laws are still not falsified, in the sense that are not totally discredited in the scientific community. Classical mechanics is still in the curriculum of all universities, in a form more or less identical that 200 years ago (Before Relativity, quantum mechanics, field theory).
Most concept in physics fit more in the category of "methods" rather than "paradigms", so can be used over and over again. And all current methods and laws fails and give "false" results, when used outside their range of applicability.
The typical example of "falsified" theory is the Ptolemaic system of Sun & planets rotating around the Earth. However, philosopher usually omits the facts that:
- Ptolemaic system was experimentally pretty good at calculating planet motions
- Most mathematical and experimental methods of the new Heliocentric paradigm are the same of the old Ptolemaic
So the falsification was more on the point of view, rather than in the methods.
edited 2 days ago
answered 2 days ago
pattapatta
71647
71647
3
$begingroup$
Well, we can measure that the Earth is rotating, against Ptolemaic system. But yes, we can still write ( with a lot of patience) all physics from our rotating system, with a lot of "fictitious" forces.
$endgroup$
– patta
2 days ago
17
$begingroup$
Note that both general mechanics and quantum mechanics are just as false as Newtonian mechanics, in a certain sense. QM fails to predict gravitational lensing, and GR fails to predict interference patterns in the double slit experiment. Both fail to explain how black holes preserve information. (one says they don't, the other says they don't exist)
$endgroup$
– John Dvorak
2 days ago
16
$begingroup$
@piet.t That's a common misconception. Ptolemy's model actually makes physically different predictions. Note that Venus is always between the Earth and the Sun in the Ptolemaic model, but not in reality. Galileo's observation of the phases of Venus, showing Venus fully illuminated by the sun, falsified the Ptolemaic model.
$endgroup$
– Denziloe
2 days ago
5
$begingroup$
99 c = 1 $ $pm$ 2%
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– patta
2 days ago
3
$begingroup$
@piet.t, the Ptolemaic system predicts that the fixed stars remain in the same relative locations at all times. Heliocentric models predict that they'll show annual variations in their positions relative to each other. High-precision observations of stellar positions show both parallax and aberration of light, which rather falsifies the Ptolemaic system (and almost all other geocentric systems).
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– Mark
2 days ago
|
show 9 more comments
3
$begingroup$
Well, we can measure that the Earth is rotating, against Ptolemaic system. But yes, we can still write ( with a lot of patience) all physics from our rotating system, with a lot of "fictitious" forces.
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– patta
2 days ago
17
$begingroup$
Note that both general mechanics and quantum mechanics are just as false as Newtonian mechanics, in a certain sense. QM fails to predict gravitational lensing, and GR fails to predict interference patterns in the double slit experiment. Both fail to explain how black holes preserve information. (one says they don't, the other says they don't exist)
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– John Dvorak
2 days ago
16
$begingroup$
@piet.t That's a common misconception. Ptolemy's model actually makes physically different predictions. Note that Venus is always between the Earth and the Sun in the Ptolemaic model, but not in reality. Galileo's observation of the phases of Venus, showing Venus fully illuminated by the sun, falsified the Ptolemaic model.
$endgroup$
– Denziloe
2 days ago
5
$begingroup$
99 c = 1 $ $pm$ 2%
$endgroup$
– patta
2 days ago
3
$begingroup$
@piet.t, the Ptolemaic system predicts that the fixed stars remain in the same relative locations at all times. Heliocentric models predict that they'll show annual variations in their positions relative to each other. High-precision observations of stellar positions show both parallax and aberration of light, which rather falsifies the Ptolemaic system (and almost all other geocentric systems).
$endgroup$
– Mark
2 days ago
3
3
$begingroup$
Well, we can measure that the Earth is rotating, against Ptolemaic system. But yes, we can still write ( with a lot of patience) all physics from our rotating system, with a lot of "fictitious" forces.
$endgroup$
– patta
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Well, we can measure that the Earth is rotating, against Ptolemaic system. But yes, we can still write ( with a lot of patience) all physics from our rotating system, with a lot of "fictitious" forces.
$endgroup$
– patta
2 days ago
17
17
$begingroup$
Note that both general mechanics and quantum mechanics are just as false as Newtonian mechanics, in a certain sense. QM fails to predict gravitational lensing, and GR fails to predict interference patterns in the double slit experiment. Both fail to explain how black holes preserve information. (one says they don't, the other says they don't exist)
$endgroup$
– John Dvorak
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Note that both general mechanics and quantum mechanics are just as false as Newtonian mechanics, in a certain sense. QM fails to predict gravitational lensing, and GR fails to predict interference patterns in the double slit experiment. Both fail to explain how black holes preserve information. (one says they don't, the other says they don't exist)
$endgroup$
– John Dvorak
2 days ago
16
16
$begingroup$
@piet.t That's a common misconception. Ptolemy's model actually makes physically different predictions. Note that Venus is always between the Earth and the Sun in the Ptolemaic model, but not in reality. Galileo's observation of the phases of Venus, showing Venus fully illuminated by the sun, falsified the Ptolemaic model.
$endgroup$
– Denziloe
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@piet.t That's a common misconception. Ptolemy's model actually makes physically different predictions. Note that Venus is always between the Earth and the Sun in the Ptolemaic model, but not in reality. Galileo's observation of the phases of Venus, showing Venus fully illuminated by the sun, falsified the Ptolemaic model.
$endgroup$
– Denziloe
2 days ago
5
5
$begingroup$
99 c = 1 $ $pm$ 2%
$endgroup$
– patta
2 days ago
$begingroup$
99 c = 1 $ $pm$ 2%
$endgroup$
– patta
2 days ago
3
3
$begingroup$
@piet.t, the Ptolemaic system predicts that the fixed stars remain in the same relative locations at all times. Heliocentric models predict that they'll show annual variations in their positions relative to each other. High-precision observations of stellar positions show both parallax and aberration of light, which rather falsifies the Ptolemaic system (and almost all other geocentric systems).
$endgroup$
– Mark
2 days ago
$begingroup$
@piet.t, the Ptolemaic system predicts that the fixed stars remain in the same relative locations at all times. Heliocentric models predict that they'll show annual variations in their positions relative to each other. High-precision observations of stellar positions show both parallax and aberration of light, which rather falsifies the Ptolemaic system (and almost all other geocentric systems).
$endgroup$
– Mark
2 days ago
|
show 9 more comments
$begingroup$
Newtonian Physics is accurate in the specific domain it was designed for
Physics is not about identifying the "truth" of the world around us. It's about creating mathematical models that allow us to accurately predict the behavior of the world.
Nobody is trying to create a perfect model, because the complexity of such a model would be infinite. Instead, we look for the boundaries of a model's accuracy - under what conditions it produces reasonable results, and the precision of the results it produces under those conditions.
You can see this more clearly with other physics models, such as the Ideal Gas Law. The Ideal Gas Law models a hugely complex system of particle collisions as a simple formula of ratios. It breaks down relatively quickly at high or low values of any of its quantities, but because we understand when and how the law breaks down, it is still useful.
At extremely large quantities (large speeds, large masses, high energies), the Newtonian model starts to break down, and we need to use a Relativistic model in order to get accurate results. But that doesn't mean that the Newtonian model is false, it just means that it is inapplicable for those conditions.
Obviously, Newton wasn't aware of the limitations to his laws when he described them. He was trying to create a universally applicable set of relations. In that sense you could argue that he failed. But I would consider the modern understanding a refinement of his laws, rather than a falsification.
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$begingroup$
Avoids answering the question...
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– Rob Jeffries
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
This is the modern understanding, but I don't think it is true to say that Newton's laws were designed (by Newton, at least) for slow speeds and mild gravitational curvatures.
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– Rococo
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
This answer would probably make more sense if "designed for" was replaced with "conceptualised within".
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– Ian Kemp
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
@IanKemp I would've awarded a bounty on this comment if it were a feature! I mean, of course, Newtonian mechanics was designed for everything. It was just conceptualized within a certain regime of experiments. And it is not in the spirit of science to actually design a theory for the regime in which the experimental results are already known. A scientific theory has to make predictions and that means that it necessarily has to go beyond the domain from which it takes empirical inspiration.
$endgroup$
– Dvij Mankad
22 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Newtonian Physics is accurate in the specific domain it was designed for
Physics is not about identifying the "truth" of the world around us. It's about creating mathematical models that allow us to accurately predict the behavior of the world.
Nobody is trying to create a perfect model, because the complexity of such a model would be infinite. Instead, we look for the boundaries of a model's accuracy - under what conditions it produces reasonable results, and the precision of the results it produces under those conditions.
You can see this more clearly with other physics models, such as the Ideal Gas Law. The Ideal Gas Law models a hugely complex system of particle collisions as a simple formula of ratios. It breaks down relatively quickly at high or low values of any of its quantities, but because we understand when and how the law breaks down, it is still useful.
At extremely large quantities (large speeds, large masses, high energies), the Newtonian model starts to break down, and we need to use a Relativistic model in order to get accurate results. But that doesn't mean that the Newtonian model is false, it just means that it is inapplicable for those conditions.
Obviously, Newton wasn't aware of the limitations to his laws when he described them. He was trying to create a universally applicable set of relations. In that sense you could argue that he failed. But I would consider the modern understanding a refinement of his laws, rather than a falsification.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Avoids answering the question...
$endgroup$
– Rob Jeffries
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
This is the modern understanding, but I don't think it is true to say that Newton's laws were designed (by Newton, at least) for slow speeds and mild gravitational curvatures.
$endgroup$
– Rococo
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
This answer would probably make more sense if "designed for" was replaced with "conceptualised within".
$endgroup$
– Ian Kemp
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
@IanKemp I would've awarded a bounty on this comment if it were a feature! I mean, of course, Newtonian mechanics was designed for everything. It was just conceptualized within a certain regime of experiments. And it is not in the spirit of science to actually design a theory for the regime in which the experimental results are already known. A scientific theory has to make predictions and that means that it necessarily has to go beyond the domain from which it takes empirical inspiration.
$endgroup$
– Dvij Mankad
22 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Newtonian Physics is accurate in the specific domain it was designed for
Physics is not about identifying the "truth" of the world around us. It's about creating mathematical models that allow us to accurately predict the behavior of the world.
Nobody is trying to create a perfect model, because the complexity of such a model would be infinite. Instead, we look for the boundaries of a model's accuracy - under what conditions it produces reasonable results, and the precision of the results it produces under those conditions.
You can see this more clearly with other physics models, such as the Ideal Gas Law. The Ideal Gas Law models a hugely complex system of particle collisions as a simple formula of ratios. It breaks down relatively quickly at high or low values of any of its quantities, but because we understand when and how the law breaks down, it is still useful.
At extremely large quantities (large speeds, large masses, high energies), the Newtonian model starts to break down, and we need to use a Relativistic model in order to get accurate results. But that doesn't mean that the Newtonian model is false, it just means that it is inapplicable for those conditions.
Obviously, Newton wasn't aware of the limitations to his laws when he described them. He was trying to create a universally applicable set of relations. In that sense you could argue that he failed. But I would consider the modern understanding a refinement of his laws, rather than a falsification.
$endgroup$
Newtonian Physics is accurate in the specific domain it was designed for
Physics is not about identifying the "truth" of the world around us. It's about creating mathematical models that allow us to accurately predict the behavior of the world.
Nobody is trying to create a perfect model, because the complexity of such a model would be infinite. Instead, we look for the boundaries of a model's accuracy - under what conditions it produces reasonable results, and the precision of the results it produces under those conditions.
You can see this more clearly with other physics models, such as the Ideal Gas Law. The Ideal Gas Law models a hugely complex system of particle collisions as a simple formula of ratios. It breaks down relatively quickly at high or low values of any of its quantities, but because we understand when and how the law breaks down, it is still useful.
At extremely large quantities (large speeds, large masses, high energies), the Newtonian model starts to break down, and we need to use a Relativistic model in order to get accurate results. But that doesn't mean that the Newtonian model is false, it just means that it is inapplicable for those conditions.
Obviously, Newton wasn't aware of the limitations to his laws when he described them. He was trying to create a universally applicable set of relations. In that sense you could argue that he failed. But I would consider the modern understanding a refinement of his laws, rather than a falsification.
edited 4 hours ago
answered 2 days ago
Arcanist LupusArcanist Lupus
34914
34914
$begingroup$
Avoids answering the question...
$endgroup$
– Rob Jeffries
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
This is the modern understanding, but I don't think it is true to say that Newton's laws were designed (by Newton, at least) for slow speeds and mild gravitational curvatures.
$endgroup$
– Rococo
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
This answer would probably make more sense if "designed for" was replaced with "conceptualised within".
$endgroup$
– Ian Kemp
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
@IanKemp I would've awarded a bounty on this comment if it were a feature! I mean, of course, Newtonian mechanics was designed for everything. It was just conceptualized within a certain regime of experiments. And it is not in the spirit of science to actually design a theory for the regime in which the experimental results are already known. A scientific theory has to make predictions and that means that it necessarily has to go beyond the domain from which it takes empirical inspiration.
$endgroup$
– Dvij Mankad
22 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Avoids answering the question...
$endgroup$
– Rob Jeffries
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
This is the modern understanding, but I don't think it is true to say that Newton's laws were designed (by Newton, at least) for slow speeds and mild gravitational curvatures.
$endgroup$
– Rococo
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
This answer would probably make more sense if "designed for" was replaced with "conceptualised within".
$endgroup$
– Ian Kemp
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
@IanKemp I would've awarded a bounty on this comment if it were a feature! I mean, of course, Newtonian mechanics was designed for everything. It was just conceptualized within a certain regime of experiments. And it is not in the spirit of science to actually design a theory for the regime in which the experimental results are already known. A scientific theory has to make predictions and that means that it necessarily has to go beyond the domain from which it takes empirical inspiration.
$endgroup$
– Dvij Mankad
22 hours ago
$begingroup$
Avoids answering the question...
$endgroup$
– Rob Jeffries
yesterday
$begingroup$
Avoids answering the question...
$endgroup$
– Rob Jeffries
yesterday
3
3
$begingroup$
This is the modern understanding, but I don't think it is true to say that Newton's laws were designed (by Newton, at least) for slow speeds and mild gravitational curvatures.
$endgroup$
– Rococo
yesterday
$begingroup$
This is the modern understanding, but I don't think it is true to say that Newton's laws were designed (by Newton, at least) for slow speeds and mild gravitational curvatures.
$endgroup$
– Rococo
yesterday
3
3
$begingroup$
This answer would probably make more sense if "designed for" was replaced with "conceptualised within".
$endgroup$
– Ian Kemp
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
This answer would probably make more sense if "designed for" was replaced with "conceptualised within".
$endgroup$
– Ian Kemp
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
@IanKemp I would've awarded a bounty on this comment if it were a feature! I mean, of course, Newtonian mechanics was designed for everything. It was just conceptualized within a certain regime of experiments. And it is not in the spirit of science to actually design a theory for the regime in which the experimental results are already known. A scientific theory has to make predictions and that means that it necessarily has to go beyond the domain from which it takes empirical inspiration.
$endgroup$
– Dvij Mankad
22 hours ago
$begingroup$
@IanKemp I would've awarded a bounty on this comment if it were a feature! I mean, of course, Newtonian mechanics was designed for everything. It was just conceptualized within a certain regime of experiments. And it is not in the spirit of science to actually design a theory for the regime in which the experimental results are already known. A scientific theory has to make predictions and that means that it necessarily has to go beyond the domain from which it takes empirical inspiration.
$endgroup$
– Dvij Mankad
22 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
One of the problems of Newton's law of universal gravitation, $$F_textGrav = G fracm_1m_2r^2,$$ is that it does not correctly describe the precession of Mercury's orbit. Mercury behaves slightly different than predicted by Newton's law and general relativity does a better job.
See also the corresponding Wikipedia article.
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2
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When you say "Newton's Laws", which do you mean exactly? There are laws for inertial motion, action/reaction, force as dp/dt, and gravity. I believe only the last one could be seen as needing modification by General Relativity.
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– Jens
yesterday
$begingroup$
Thanks, clarified.
$endgroup$
– Jasper
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
One of the problems of Newton's law of universal gravitation, $$F_textGrav = G fracm_1m_2r^2,$$ is that it does not correctly describe the precession of Mercury's orbit. Mercury behaves slightly different than predicted by Newton's law and general relativity does a better job.
See also the corresponding Wikipedia article.
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
When you say "Newton's Laws", which do you mean exactly? There are laws for inertial motion, action/reaction, force as dp/dt, and gravity. I believe only the last one could be seen as needing modification by General Relativity.
$endgroup$
– Jens
yesterday
$begingroup$
Thanks, clarified.
$endgroup$
– Jasper
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
One of the problems of Newton's law of universal gravitation, $$F_textGrav = G fracm_1m_2r^2,$$ is that it does not correctly describe the precession of Mercury's orbit. Mercury behaves slightly different than predicted by Newton's law and general relativity does a better job.
See also the corresponding Wikipedia article.
$endgroup$
One of the problems of Newton's law of universal gravitation, $$F_textGrav = G fracm_1m_2r^2,$$ is that it does not correctly describe the precession of Mercury's orbit. Mercury behaves slightly different than predicted by Newton's law and general relativity does a better job.
See also the corresponding Wikipedia article.
edited yesterday
answered 2 days ago
JasperJasper
1,2521517
1,2521517
2
$begingroup$
When you say "Newton's Laws", which do you mean exactly? There are laws for inertial motion, action/reaction, force as dp/dt, and gravity. I believe only the last one could be seen as needing modification by General Relativity.
$endgroup$
– Jens
yesterday
$begingroup$
Thanks, clarified.
$endgroup$
– Jasper
yesterday
add a comment |
2
$begingroup$
When you say "Newton's Laws", which do you mean exactly? There are laws for inertial motion, action/reaction, force as dp/dt, and gravity. I believe only the last one could be seen as needing modification by General Relativity.
$endgroup$
– Jens
yesterday
$begingroup$
Thanks, clarified.
$endgroup$
– Jasper
yesterday
2
2
$begingroup$
When you say "Newton's Laws", which do you mean exactly? There are laws for inertial motion, action/reaction, force as dp/dt, and gravity. I believe only the last one could be seen as needing modification by General Relativity.
$endgroup$
– Jens
yesterday
$begingroup$
When you say "Newton's Laws", which do you mean exactly? There are laws for inertial motion, action/reaction, force as dp/dt, and gravity. I believe only the last one could be seen as needing modification by General Relativity.
$endgroup$
– Jens
yesterday
$begingroup$
Thanks, clarified.
$endgroup$
– Jasper
yesterday
$begingroup$
Thanks, clarified.
$endgroup$
– Jasper
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Relativity is an extension of Newtonian physics, not either a replacement or correction. As such, relativity does not "falsify" Newtonian physics. For velocities far smaller than the speed of light (approaching zero), relativity simplifies back to the Newtonian model. For everyday use, and for everyday engineering problems, Newtonian physics is more than accurate enough. It's only when you get into more "interesting" situations that Newtonian physics fails to provide adequate solutions. The orbit of Mercury is a famous one. It's only because of Mercury's proximity to the Sun that its orbit defies accurate modeling in purely Newtonian terms. Similarly, without an understanding of relativity and relativistic effects on orbiting spacecraft, the GPS system could not work (the onboard timekeeping of the GPS satellites must be extremely precise and the very small relativisitic effects on their clocks must be accounted for). These are not everyday situations, and the relativistic effects are small, but the position of Mercury can be very precisely measured and GPS signals are timed with very high precision (light/radio travels about a foot or about 30cm in a nanosecond).
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Relativity is an extension of Newtonian physics, not either a replacement or correction. As such, relativity does not "falsify" Newtonian physics. For velocities far smaller than the speed of light (approaching zero), relativity simplifies back to the Newtonian model. For everyday use, and for everyday engineering problems, Newtonian physics is more than accurate enough. It's only when you get into more "interesting" situations that Newtonian physics fails to provide adequate solutions. The orbit of Mercury is a famous one. It's only because of Mercury's proximity to the Sun that its orbit defies accurate modeling in purely Newtonian terms. Similarly, without an understanding of relativity and relativistic effects on orbiting spacecraft, the GPS system could not work (the onboard timekeeping of the GPS satellites must be extremely precise and the very small relativisitic effects on their clocks must be accounted for). These are not everyday situations, and the relativistic effects are small, but the position of Mercury can be very precisely measured and GPS signals are timed with very high precision (light/radio travels about a foot or about 30cm in a nanosecond).
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Relativity is an extension of Newtonian physics, not either a replacement or correction. As such, relativity does not "falsify" Newtonian physics. For velocities far smaller than the speed of light (approaching zero), relativity simplifies back to the Newtonian model. For everyday use, and for everyday engineering problems, Newtonian physics is more than accurate enough. It's only when you get into more "interesting" situations that Newtonian physics fails to provide adequate solutions. The orbit of Mercury is a famous one. It's only because of Mercury's proximity to the Sun that its orbit defies accurate modeling in purely Newtonian terms. Similarly, without an understanding of relativity and relativistic effects on orbiting spacecraft, the GPS system could not work (the onboard timekeeping of the GPS satellites must be extremely precise and the very small relativisitic effects on their clocks must be accounted for). These are not everyday situations, and the relativistic effects are small, but the position of Mercury can be very precisely measured and GPS signals are timed with very high precision (light/radio travels about a foot or about 30cm in a nanosecond).
$endgroup$
Relativity is an extension of Newtonian physics, not either a replacement or correction. As such, relativity does not "falsify" Newtonian physics. For velocities far smaller than the speed of light (approaching zero), relativity simplifies back to the Newtonian model. For everyday use, and for everyday engineering problems, Newtonian physics is more than accurate enough. It's only when you get into more "interesting" situations that Newtonian physics fails to provide adequate solutions. The orbit of Mercury is a famous one. It's only because of Mercury's proximity to the Sun that its orbit defies accurate modeling in purely Newtonian terms. Similarly, without an understanding of relativity and relativistic effects on orbiting spacecraft, the GPS system could not work (the onboard timekeeping of the GPS satellites must be extremely precise and the very small relativisitic effects on their clocks must be accounted for). These are not everyday situations, and the relativistic effects are small, but the position of Mercury can be very precisely measured and GPS signals are timed with very high precision (light/radio travels about a foot or about 30cm in a nanosecond).
answered 2 mins ago
Anthony XAnthony X
2,78611220
2,78611220
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
First of all no scientific theory can possibly be falsified. Popper was wrong. See the Quine-Duhem thesis which says that instead of rejecting the theory when a seemingly falsifying experiment occurs, one can always instead reject some underlying "auxiliary hypothesis". The perfect example of this is how when experiments came out seeming to indicate neutrinos were moving faster than light no serious scientists actually believed the neutrinos moved faster than light, rather, all the scientists rightly believed that there must have been something wrong with the experiment.
Now to answer your questions.
- Are any of Newton's three laws considered to be 'falsified theories' by any 'working physicists'? If so, what evidence do they have that they believe falsifies those three theories?
Despite what I said above the answer to your question is yes. This is because 'working physicists' are generally not good philosophers of science and many 'working physicists' incorrectly think Poppers program of falsification is correct. Working physicists aren't good philosophers of science because philosophy of science doesn't really help them do their job better and they simply may not find it that interesting, so if they hold misconceptions about philosophy of science it doesn't cause any problem whatsoever in their daily work.
- If the three laws are still unfalsified, are there any other concepts that form a part of "Newtonian Mechanics" that we consider to be falsified?
No. As I said above no physical theory can be falsified.
Here's some information about Imre Lakatos who has a better philosophy of science in my opinion than Popper.
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I carry no water for Popper, but a statement like "no scientific theory is ever falsified" does not seem to me to be an actual description of what scientists think and do (as you have noted), and I question a theory of science that says that most scientists don't do science.
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– Rococo
yesterday
1
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@Rococo I won't make any claim as to what percentage of scientists will say falsification is how science works because I've never done or seen a survey. I will point out that one can be a productive scientists regardless of ones opinions about philosophy of science. I would argue that all good scientists (even those who believe in falsification) do not actually do their science by trying to falsify things. Instead they do what all good scientists do:
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– jgerber
yesterday
1
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They mess around with their theories and experiments seeing which theories work under which conditions, they try to figure out why and when theories break down, they generate new theories if necessary. The question is: does this theory explain what I am seeing? Why? Why not? What does it mean if this other theory also describes what I am seeing?
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– jgerber
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
No where did I say that most scientists don't do science. All I said was that many scientists have misconceptions about philosophy of science but I was careful to point out that a scientists thoughts on philosophy of science have very little bearing on his or her aptitude as a scientist.
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– jgerber
yesterday
$begingroup$
I apologize for mischaracterizing your position. Nonetheless, I am not personally convinced that, for example, 'all good scientists (even those who believe in falsification) do not actually do their science by trying to falsify things.' To be clear, I would neither make the extreme opposing claim that science is all about falsifying theories.
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– Rococo
23 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
First of all no scientific theory can possibly be falsified. Popper was wrong. See the Quine-Duhem thesis which says that instead of rejecting the theory when a seemingly falsifying experiment occurs, one can always instead reject some underlying "auxiliary hypothesis". The perfect example of this is how when experiments came out seeming to indicate neutrinos were moving faster than light no serious scientists actually believed the neutrinos moved faster than light, rather, all the scientists rightly believed that there must have been something wrong with the experiment.
Now to answer your questions.
- Are any of Newton's three laws considered to be 'falsified theories' by any 'working physicists'? If so, what evidence do they have that they believe falsifies those three theories?
Despite what I said above the answer to your question is yes. This is because 'working physicists' are generally not good philosophers of science and many 'working physicists' incorrectly think Poppers program of falsification is correct. Working physicists aren't good philosophers of science because philosophy of science doesn't really help them do their job better and they simply may not find it that interesting, so if they hold misconceptions about philosophy of science it doesn't cause any problem whatsoever in their daily work.
- If the three laws are still unfalsified, are there any other concepts that form a part of "Newtonian Mechanics" that we consider to be falsified?
No. As I said above no physical theory can be falsified.
Here's some information about Imre Lakatos who has a better philosophy of science in my opinion than Popper.
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3
$begingroup$
I carry no water for Popper, but a statement like "no scientific theory is ever falsified" does not seem to me to be an actual description of what scientists think and do (as you have noted), and I question a theory of science that says that most scientists don't do science.
$endgroup$
– Rococo
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@Rococo I won't make any claim as to what percentage of scientists will say falsification is how science works because I've never done or seen a survey. I will point out that one can be a productive scientists regardless of ones opinions about philosophy of science. I would argue that all good scientists (even those who believe in falsification) do not actually do their science by trying to falsify things. Instead they do what all good scientists do:
$endgroup$
– jgerber
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
They mess around with their theories and experiments seeing which theories work under which conditions, they try to figure out why and when theories break down, they generate new theories if necessary. The question is: does this theory explain what I am seeing? Why? Why not? What does it mean if this other theory also describes what I am seeing?
$endgroup$
– jgerber
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
No where did I say that most scientists don't do science. All I said was that many scientists have misconceptions about philosophy of science but I was careful to point out that a scientists thoughts on philosophy of science have very little bearing on his or her aptitude as a scientist.
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– jgerber
yesterday
$begingroup$
I apologize for mischaracterizing your position. Nonetheless, I am not personally convinced that, for example, 'all good scientists (even those who believe in falsification) do not actually do their science by trying to falsify things.' To be clear, I would neither make the extreme opposing claim that science is all about falsifying theories.
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– Rococo
23 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
First of all no scientific theory can possibly be falsified. Popper was wrong. See the Quine-Duhem thesis which says that instead of rejecting the theory when a seemingly falsifying experiment occurs, one can always instead reject some underlying "auxiliary hypothesis". The perfect example of this is how when experiments came out seeming to indicate neutrinos were moving faster than light no serious scientists actually believed the neutrinos moved faster than light, rather, all the scientists rightly believed that there must have been something wrong with the experiment.
Now to answer your questions.
- Are any of Newton's three laws considered to be 'falsified theories' by any 'working physicists'? If so, what evidence do they have that they believe falsifies those three theories?
Despite what I said above the answer to your question is yes. This is because 'working physicists' are generally not good philosophers of science and many 'working physicists' incorrectly think Poppers program of falsification is correct. Working physicists aren't good philosophers of science because philosophy of science doesn't really help them do their job better and they simply may not find it that interesting, so if they hold misconceptions about philosophy of science it doesn't cause any problem whatsoever in their daily work.
- If the three laws are still unfalsified, are there any other concepts that form a part of "Newtonian Mechanics" that we consider to be falsified?
No. As I said above no physical theory can be falsified.
Here's some information about Imre Lakatos who has a better philosophy of science in my opinion than Popper.
$endgroup$
First of all no scientific theory can possibly be falsified. Popper was wrong. See the Quine-Duhem thesis which says that instead of rejecting the theory when a seemingly falsifying experiment occurs, one can always instead reject some underlying "auxiliary hypothesis". The perfect example of this is how when experiments came out seeming to indicate neutrinos were moving faster than light no serious scientists actually believed the neutrinos moved faster than light, rather, all the scientists rightly believed that there must have been something wrong with the experiment.
Now to answer your questions.
- Are any of Newton's three laws considered to be 'falsified theories' by any 'working physicists'? If so, what evidence do they have that they believe falsifies those three theories?
Despite what I said above the answer to your question is yes. This is because 'working physicists' are generally not good philosophers of science and many 'working physicists' incorrectly think Poppers program of falsification is correct. Working physicists aren't good philosophers of science because philosophy of science doesn't really help them do their job better and they simply may not find it that interesting, so if they hold misconceptions about philosophy of science it doesn't cause any problem whatsoever in their daily work.
- If the three laws are still unfalsified, are there any other concepts that form a part of "Newtonian Mechanics" that we consider to be falsified?
No. As I said above no physical theory can be falsified.
Here's some information about Imre Lakatos who has a better philosophy of science in my opinion than Popper.
answered yesterday
jgerberjgerber
2,3821522
2,3821522
3
$begingroup$
I carry no water for Popper, but a statement like "no scientific theory is ever falsified" does not seem to me to be an actual description of what scientists think and do (as you have noted), and I question a theory of science that says that most scientists don't do science.
$endgroup$
– Rococo
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@Rococo I won't make any claim as to what percentage of scientists will say falsification is how science works because I've never done or seen a survey. I will point out that one can be a productive scientists regardless of ones opinions about philosophy of science. I would argue that all good scientists (even those who believe in falsification) do not actually do their science by trying to falsify things. Instead they do what all good scientists do:
$endgroup$
– jgerber
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
They mess around with their theories and experiments seeing which theories work under which conditions, they try to figure out why and when theories break down, they generate new theories if necessary. The question is: does this theory explain what I am seeing? Why? Why not? What does it mean if this other theory also describes what I am seeing?
$endgroup$
– jgerber
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
No where did I say that most scientists don't do science. All I said was that many scientists have misconceptions about philosophy of science but I was careful to point out that a scientists thoughts on philosophy of science have very little bearing on his or her aptitude as a scientist.
$endgroup$
– jgerber
yesterday
$begingroup$
I apologize for mischaracterizing your position. Nonetheless, I am not personally convinced that, for example, 'all good scientists (even those who believe in falsification) do not actually do their science by trying to falsify things.' To be clear, I would neither make the extreme opposing claim that science is all about falsifying theories.
$endgroup$
– Rococo
23 hours ago
add a comment |
3
$begingroup$
I carry no water for Popper, but a statement like "no scientific theory is ever falsified" does not seem to me to be an actual description of what scientists think and do (as you have noted), and I question a theory of science that says that most scientists don't do science.
$endgroup$
– Rococo
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@Rococo I won't make any claim as to what percentage of scientists will say falsification is how science works because I've never done or seen a survey. I will point out that one can be a productive scientists regardless of ones opinions about philosophy of science. I would argue that all good scientists (even those who believe in falsification) do not actually do their science by trying to falsify things. Instead they do what all good scientists do:
$endgroup$
– jgerber
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
They mess around with their theories and experiments seeing which theories work under which conditions, they try to figure out why and when theories break down, they generate new theories if necessary. The question is: does this theory explain what I am seeing? Why? Why not? What does it mean if this other theory also describes what I am seeing?
$endgroup$
– jgerber
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
No where did I say that most scientists don't do science. All I said was that many scientists have misconceptions about philosophy of science but I was careful to point out that a scientists thoughts on philosophy of science have very little bearing on his or her aptitude as a scientist.
$endgroup$
– jgerber
yesterday
$begingroup$
I apologize for mischaracterizing your position. Nonetheless, I am not personally convinced that, for example, 'all good scientists (even those who believe in falsification) do not actually do their science by trying to falsify things.' To be clear, I would neither make the extreme opposing claim that science is all about falsifying theories.
$endgroup$
– Rococo
23 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
I carry no water for Popper, but a statement like "no scientific theory is ever falsified" does not seem to me to be an actual description of what scientists think and do (as you have noted), and I question a theory of science that says that most scientists don't do science.
$endgroup$
– Rococo
yesterday
$begingroup$
I carry no water for Popper, but a statement like "no scientific theory is ever falsified" does not seem to me to be an actual description of what scientists think and do (as you have noted), and I question a theory of science that says that most scientists don't do science.
$endgroup$
– Rococo
yesterday
1
1
$begingroup$
@Rococo I won't make any claim as to what percentage of scientists will say falsification is how science works because I've never done or seen a survey. I will point out that one can be a productive scientists regardless of ones opinions about philosophy of science. I would argue that all good scientists (even those who believe in falsification) do not actually do their science by trying to falsify things. Instead they do what all good scientists do:
$endgroup$
– jgerber
yesterday
$begingroup$
@Rococo I won't make any claim as to what percentage of scientists will say falsification is how science works because I've never done or seen a survey. I will point out that one can be a productive scientists regardless of ones opinions about philosophy of science. I would argue that all good scientists (even those who believe in falsification) do not actually do their science by trying to falsify things. Instead they do what all good scientists do:
$endgroup$
– jgerber
yesterday
1
1
$begingroup$
They mess around with their theories and experiments seeing which theories work under which conditions, they try to figure out why and when theories break down, they generate new theories if necessary. The question is: does this theory explain what I am seeing? Why? Why not? What does it mean if this other theory also describes what I am seeing?
$endgroup$
– jgerber
yesterday
$begingroup$
They mess around with their theories and experiments seeing which theories work under which conditions, they try to figure out why and when theories break down, they generate new theories if necessary. The question is: does this theory explain what I am seeing? Why? Why not? What does it mean if this other theory also describes what I am seeing?
$endgroup$
– jgerber
yesterday
1
1
$begingroup$
No where did I say that most scientists don't do science. All I said was that many scientists have misconceptions about philosophy of science but I was careful to point out that a scientists thoughts on philosophy of science have very little bearing on his or her aptitude as a scientist.
$endgroup$
– jgerber
yesterday
$begingroup$
No where did I say that most scientists don't do science. All I said was that many scientists have misconceptions about philosophy of science but I was careful to point out that a scientists thoughts on philosophy of science have very little bearing on his or her aptitude as a scientist.
$endgroup$
– jgerber
yesterday
$begingroup$
I apologize for mischaracterizing your position. Nonetheless, I am not personally convinced that, for example, 'all good scientists (even those who believe in falsification) do not actually do their science by trying to falsify things.' To be clear, I would neither make the extreme opposing claim that science is all about falsifying theories.
$endgroup$
– Rococo
23 hours ago
$begingroup$
I apologize for mischaracterizing your position. Nonetheless, I am not personally convinced that, for example, 'all good scientists (even those who believe in falsification) do not actually do their science by trying to falsify things.' To be clear, I would neither make the extreme opposing claim that science is all about falsifying theories.
$endgroup$
– Rococo
23 hours ago
add a comment |
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Related: physics.stackexchange.com/questions/52165/…
$endgroup$
– user3067860
2 days ago
8
$begingroup$
"All models are wrong, but some are useful"
$endgroup$
– Eric Duminil
2 days ago
1
$begingroup$
@EricDuminil The quotes by statisticians better be reserved for statistics. (-:
$endgroup$
– Dvij Mankad
22 hours ago