How to handle characters who are more educated than the author? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern) Announcing our contest results! Tags of the week! April 8-14, 2019: Punctuation & NamingWriting the dialogues of characters who are much smarter than youIs character driven fiction more successful than plot driven fiction?Tips for adding more personality to characters?Adding more characters as the story moves forwardsHow to Cite an Author Who Has a Pen NameHow do I demonstrate ideological differences between characters who are politically not too different?How to format multiple inner voices, differentiating the text from dialogue? and omnipresent inner voiceIs there a way to make all characters to be chameleon's archetype?Ordinary writing or Prose: how to make it immersive?How to add depth to primary female character that contrasts well with primary male charactersHow to write in a more conversational tone?

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How to handle characters who are more educated than the author?



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)
Announcing our contest results!
Tags of the week! April 8-14, 2019: Punctuation & NamingWriting the dialogues of characters who are much smarter than youIs character driven fiction more successful than plot driven fiction?Tips for adding more personality to characters?Adding more characters as the story moves forwardsHow to Cite an Author Who Has a Pen NameHow do I demonstrate ideological differences between characters who are politically not too different?How to format multiple inner voices, differentiating the text from dialogue? and omnipresent inner voiceIs there a way to make all characters to be chameleon's archetype?Ordinary writing or Prose: how to make it immersive?How to add depth to primary female character that contrasts well with primary male charactersHow to write in a more conversational tone?










10















This is inspired by a few things that have been breaking my immersion when reading Worm.



The main protagonist is a teen, and most chapters are first-person POV, so grammatical casualness fits. I don't expect her to use subjunctive, and her use of "anyways" was (I thought) a great way to indicate that she was a high school sophomore.



But then authority figures ALSO used "anyways" in formal communication. No one uses subjunctive. There doesn't seem to be that slight code-switching tone difference with the "adults" when talking to each other at coffee vs sharing information in a meeting.



Is this just something to specifically proofread for, highlighting dialogue/thoughts by certain characters, and revising them all in a specific tone-swoop? How do you learn what elements help change that tone?



(I know if your character is a physicist, you have to look up enough physics to communicate the science effectively, but language use of a character pervades all their thoughts and dialogue, especially in workplace settings. One doesn't have to be an English major to have this code-switching behavior, or varying levels of formalism: mere exposure to higher-level readings (like academic journals) would have an effect.)



I don't intend to knock this author -- I've been reading his works for millions of words! And I know we're basically reading his first-drafts, due to his production choices. I just try to learn what catches my eye/ear as a reader, so I can change that in my own writing. (And yes, I have tone problems too -- often too casual for professional, but too formal for quick communications. And my writing is 100% middle-class white, so I know I'd need an editor of a different background to have better code-switching to show other types of family life, for example.)





Not a duplicate of Writing the dialogues of characters who are much smarter than you because that's about "pure" IQ, and my question is more about characters who would realistically have had more formal education than the author.








share|improve this question



















  • 1





    I added tone but I'm thinking now that voice may be a better choice (or perhaps they're both relevant). What do you think?

    – Cyn
    2 days ago






  • 1





    You think the diction breaks immersion in Worm? Wow, just wait until you run across all the plot points that turn on people never noticing bugs crawling all over them, or using spider silk to drag heavy objects as if it were as strong as as rope, or the ending, which alternates between utterly incoherent and utterly inconsistent with previously-established canon. Or better yet... don't wait until you read that far. There are plenty of better superhero stories you could be reading.

    – Mason Wheeler
    2 days ago







  • 1





    I'm a Worm fangirl. I totally adore We've Got Worm/Ward podcasts, and this is my 3rd time through Worm. I didn't really like Twig, though. Some things affect me because it's text -- like diction. I can ignore the bugs-everywhere, just like in Buffy I ignore that characters have NO peripheral vision -- or it happens to totally match the framing of the shot. The ending (mostly everything past the time skip) is just a gigantic fever-dream.. it's chaos, but I float with it in the moment.

    – April
    2 days ago











  • Bleh. Worm started out with a very interesting premise: girl gets superpowers, wants to be a hero, accidentally falls in with a group of villains, and has to pretend to be on their side while figuring out how to handle the situation. That would have been a really interesting story, if only we had gotten to see it! But when the first Endbringer attack happened, the author completely abandoned that story and instead replaced it with taking a big, long, extended dump all over everything that makes superheroes awesome, that just happened to feature the same main characters.

    – Mason Wheeler
    2 days ago











  • If you want to see a "superhero deconstruction" story that was actually done really well, I'd recommend Soon I Will Be Invincible. It's so much better than Worm, and (if I'm reading between the lines well here) has a "girl power" ending that I'm guessing you'd really love.

    – Mason Wheeler
    2 days ago















10















This is inspired by a few things that have been breaking my immersion when reading Worm.



The main protagonist is a teen, and most chapters are first-person POV, so grammatical casualness fits. I don't expect her to use subjunctive, and her use of "anyways" was (I thought) a great way to indicate that she was a high school sophomore.



But then authority figures ALSO used "anyways" in formal communication. No one uses subjunctive. There doesn't seem to be that slight code-switching tone difference with the "adults" when talking to each other at coffee vs sharing information in a meeting.



Is this just something to specifically proofread for, highlighting dialogue/thoughts by certain characters, and revising them all in a specific tone-swoop? How do you learn what elements help change that tone?



(I know if your character is a physicist, you have to look up enough physics to communicate the science effectively, but language use of a character pervades all their thoughts and dialogue, especially in workplace settings. One doesn't have to be an English major to have this code-switching behavior, or varying levels of formalism: mere exposure to higher-level readings (like academic journals) would have an effect.)



I don't intend to knock this author -- I've been reading his works for millions of words! And I know we're basically reading his first-drafts, due to his production choices. I just try to learn what catches my eye/ear as a reader, so I can change that in my own writing. (And yes, I have tone problems too -- often too casual for professional, but too formal for quick communications. And my writing is 100% middle-class white, so I know I'd need an editor of a different background to have better code-switching to show other types of family life, for example.)





Not a duplicate of Writing the dialogues of characters who are much smarter than you because that's about "pure" IQ, and my question is more about characters who would realistically have had more formal education than the author.








share|improve this question



















  • 1





    I added tone but I'm thinking now that voice may be a better choice (or perhaps they're both relevant). What do you think?

    – Cyn
    2 days ago






  • 1





    You think the diction breaks immersion in Worm? Wow, just wait until you run across all the plot points that turn on people never noticing bugs crawling all over them, or using spider silk to drag heavy objects as if it were as strong as as rope, or the ending, which alternates between utterly incoherent and utterly inconsistent with previously-established canon. Or better yet... don't wait until you read that far. There are plenty of better superhero stories you could be reading.

    – Mason Wheeler
    2 days ago







  • 1





    I'm a Worm fangirl. I totally adore We've Got Worm/Ward podcasts, and this is my 3rd time through Worm. I didn't really like Twig, though. Some things affect me because it's text -- like diction. I can ignore the bugs-everywhere, just like in Buffy I ignore that characters have NO peripheral vision -- or it happens to totally match the framing of the shot. The ending (mostly everything past the time skip) is just a gigantic fever-dream.. it's chaos, but I float with it in the moment.

    – April
    2 days ago











  • Bleh. Worm started out with a very interesting premise: girl gets superpowers, wants to be a hero, accidentally falls in with a group of villains, and has to pretend to be on their side while figuring out how to handle the situation. That would have been a really interesting story, if only we had gotten to see it! But when the first Endbringer attack happened, the author completely abandoned that story and instead replaced it with taking a big, long, extended dump all over everything that makes superheroes awesome, that just happened to feature the same main characters.

    – Mason Wheeler
    2 days ago











  • If you want to see a "superhero deconstruction" story that was actually done really well, I'd recommend Soon I Will Be Invincible. It's so much better than Worm, and (if I'm reading between the lines well here) has a "girl power" ending that I'm guessing you'd really love.

    – Mason Wheeler
    2 days ago













10












10








10








This is inspired by a few things that have been breaking my immersion when reading Worm.



The main protagonist is a teen, and most chapters are first-person POV, so grammatical casualness fits. I don't expect her to use subjunctive, and her use of "anyways" was (I thought) a great way to indicate that she was a high school sophomore.



But then authority figures ALSO used "anyways" in formal communication. No one uses subjunctive. There doesn't seem to be that slight code-switching tone difference with the "adults" when talking to each other at coffee vs sharing information in a meeting.



Is this just something to specifically proofread for, highlighting dialogue/thoughts by certain characters, and revising them all in a specific tone-swoop? How do you learn what elements help change that tone?



(I know if your character is a physicist, you have to look up enough physics to communicate the science effectively, but language use of a character pervades all their thoughts and dialogue, especially in workplace settings. One doesn't have to be an English major to have this code-switching behavior, or varying levels of formalism: mere exposure to higher-level readings (like academic journals) would have an effect.)



I don't intend to knock this author -- I've been reading his works for millions of words! And I know we're basically reading his first-drafts, due to his production choices. I just try to learn what catches my eye/ear as a reader, so I can change that in my own writing. (And yes, I have tone problems too -- often too casual for professional, but too formal for quick communications. And my writing is 100% middle-class white, so I know I'd need an editor of a different background to have better code-switching to show other types of family life, for example.)





Not a duplicate of Writing the dialogues of characters who are much smarter than you because that's about "pure" IQ, and my question is more about characters who would realistically have had more formal education than the author.








share|improve this question
















This is inspired by a few things that have been breaking my immersion when reading Worm.



The main protagonist is a teen, and most chapters are first-person POV, so grammatical casualness fits. I don't expect her to use subjunctive, and her use of "anyways" was (I thought) a great way to indicate that she was a high school sophomore.



But then authority figures ALSO used "anyways" in formal communication. No one uses subjunctive. There doesn't seem to be that slight code-switching tone difference with the "adults" when talking to each other at coffee vs sharing information in a meeting.



Is this just something to specifically proofread for, highlighting dialogue/thoughts by certain characters, and revising them all in a specific tone-swoop? How do you learn what elements help change that tone?



(I know if your character is a physicist, you have to look up enough physics to communicate the science effectively, but language use of a character pervades all their thoughts and dialogue, especially in workplace settings. One doesn't have to be an English major to have this code-switching behavior, or varying levels of formalism: mere exposure to higher-level readings (like academic journals) would have an effect.)



I don't intend to knock this author -- I've been reading his works for millions of words! And I know we're basically reading his first-drafts, due to his production choices. I just try to learn what catches my eye/ear as a reader, so I can change that in my own writing. (And yes, I have tone problems too -- often too casual for professional, but too formal for quick communications. And my writing is 100% middle-class white, so I know I'd need an editor of a different background to have better code-switching to show other types of family life, for example.)





Not a duplicate of Writing the dialogues of characters who are much smarter than you because that's about "pure" IQ, and my question is more about characters who would realistically have had more formal education than the author.





style character-development grammar tone






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 2 days ago









Cyn

18.1k13984




18.1k13984










asked 2 days ago









AprilApril

2,423638




2,423638







  • 1





    I added tone but I'm thinking now that voice may be a better choice (or perhaps they're both relevant). What do you think?

    – Cyn
    2 days ago






  • 1





    You think the diction breaks immersion in Worm? Wow, just wait until you run across all the plot points that turn on people never noticing bugs crawling all over them, or using spider silk to drag heavy objects as if it were as strong as as rope, or the ending, which alternates between utterly incoherent and utterly inconsistent with previously-established canon. Or better yet... don't wait until you read that far. There are plenty of better superhero stories you could be reading.

    – Mason Wheeler
    2 days ago







  • 1





    I'm a Worm fangirl. I totally adore We've Got Worm/Ward podcasts, and this is my 3rd time through Worm. I didn't really like Twig, though. Some things affect me because it's text -- like diction. I can ignore the bugs-everywhere, just like in Buffy I ignore that characters have NO peripheral vision -- or it happens to totally match the framing of the shot. The ending (mostly everything past the time skip) is just a gigantic fever-dream.. it's chaos, but I float with it in the moment.

    – April
    2 days ago











  • Bleh. Worm started out with a very interesting premise: girl gets superpowers, wants to be a hero, accidentally falls in with a group of villains, and has to pretend to be on their side while figuring out how to handle the situation. That would have been a really interesting story, if only we had gotten to see it! But when the first Endbringer attack happened, the author completely abandoned that story and instead replaced it with taking a big, long, extended dump all over everything that makes superheroes awesome, that just happened to feature the same main characters.

    – Mason Wheeler
    2 days ago











  • If you want to see a "superhero deconstruction" story that was actually done really well, I'd recommend Soon I Will Be Invincible. It's so much better than Worm, and (if I'm reading between the lines well here) has a "girl power" ending that I'm guessing you'd really love.

    – Mason Wheeler
    2 days ago












  • 1





    I added tone but I'm thinking now that voice may be a better choice (or perhaps they're both relevant). What do you think?

    – Cyn
    2 days ago






  • 1





    You think the diction breaks immersion in Worm? Wow, just wait until you run across all the plot points that turn on people never noticing bugs crawling all over them, or using spider silk to drag heavy objects as if it were as strong as as rope, or the ending, which alternates between utterly incoherent and utterly inconsistent with previously-established canon. Or better yet... don't wait until you read that far. There are plenty of better superhero stories you could be reading.

    – Mason Wheeler
    2 days ago







  • 1





    I'm a Worm fangirl. I totally adore We've Got Worm/Ward podcasts, and this is my 3rd time through Worm. I didn't really like Twig, though. Some things affect me because it's text -- like diction. I can ignore the bugs-everywhere, just like in Buffy I ignore that characters have NO peripheral vision -- or it happens to totally match the framing of the shot. The ending (mostly everything past the time skip) is just a gigantic fever-dream.. it's chaos, but I float with it in the moment.

    – April
    2 days ago











  • Bleh. Worm started out with a very interesting premise: girl gets superpowers, wants to be a hero, accidentally falls in with a group of villains, and has to pretend to be on their side while figuring out how to handle the situation. That would have been a really interesting story, if only we had gotten to see it! But when the first Endbringer attack happened, the author completely abandoned that story and instead replaced it with taking a big, long, extended dump all over everything that makes superheroes awesome, that just happened to feature the same main characters.

    – Mason Wheeler
    2 days ago











  • If you want to see a "superhero deconstruction" story that was actually done really well, I'd recommend Soon I Will Be Invincible. It's so much better than Worm, and (if I'm reading between the lines well here) has a "girl power" ending that I'm guessing you'd really love.

    – Mason Wheeler
    2 days ago







1




1





I added tone but I'm thinking now that voice may be a better choice (or perhaps they're both relevant). What do you think?

– Cyn
2 days ago





I added tone but I'm thinking now that voice may be a better choice (or perhaps they're both relevant). What do you think?

– Cyn
2 days ago




1




1





You think the diction breaks immersion in Worm? Wow, just wait until you run across all the plot points that turn on people never noticing bugs crawling all over them, or using spider silk to drag heavy objects as if it were as strong as as rope, or the ending, which alternates between utterly incoherent and utterly inconsistent with previously-established canon. Or better yet... don't wait until you read that far. There are plenty of better superhero stories you could be reading.

– Mason Wheeler
2 days ago






You think the diction breaks immersion in Worm? Wow, just wait until you run across all the plot points that turn on people never noticing bugs crawling all over them, or using spider silk to drag heavy objects as if it were as strong as as rope, or the ending, which alternates between utterly incoherent and utterly inconsistent with previously-established canon. Or better yet... don't wait until you read that far. There are plenty of better superhero stories you could be reading.

– Mason Wheeler
2 days ago





1




1





I'm a Worm fangirl. I totally adore We've Got Worm/Ward podcasts, and this is my 3rd time through Worm. I didn't really like Twig, though. Some things affect me because it's text -- like diction. I can ignore the bugs-everywhere, just like in Buffy I ignore that characters have NO peripheral vision -- or it happens to totally match the framing of the shot. The ending (mostly everything past the time skip) is just a gigantic fever-dream.. it's chaos, but I float with it in the moment.

– April
2 days ago





I'm a Worm fangirl. I totally adore We've Got Worm/Ward podcasts, and this is my 3rd time through Worm. I didn't really like Twig, though. Some things affect me because it's text -- like diction. I can ignore the bugs-everywhere, just like in Buffy I ignore that characters have NO peripheral vision -- or it happens to totally match the framing of the shot. The ending (mostly everything past the time skip) is just a gigantic fever-dream.. it's chaos, but I float with it in the moment.

– April
2 days ago













Bleh. Worm started out with a very interesting premise: girl gets superpowers, wants to be a hero, accidentally falls in with a group of villains, and has to pretend to be on their side while figuring out how to handle the situation. That would have been a really interesting story, if only we had gotten to see it! But when the first Endbringer attack happened, the author completely abandoned that story and instead replaced it with taking a big, long, extended dump all over everything that makes superheroes awesome, that just happened to feature the same main characters.

– Mason Wheeler
2 days ago





Bleh. Worm started out with a very interesting premise: girl gets superpowers, wants to be a hero, accidentally falls in with a group of villains, and has to pretend to be on their side while figuring out how to handle the situation. That would have been a really interesting story, if only we had gotten to see it! But when the first Endbringer attack happened, the author completely abandoned that story and instead replaced it with taking a big, long, extended dump all over everything that makes superheroes awesome, that just happened to feature the same main characters.

– Mason Wheeler
2 days ago













If you want to see a "superhero deconstruction" story that was actually done really well, I'd recommend Soon I Will Be Invincible. It's so much better than Worm, and (if I'm reading between the lines well here) has a "girl power" ending that I'm guessing you'd really love.

– Mason Wheeler
2 days ago





If you want to see a "superhero deconstruction" story that was actually done really well, I'd recommend Soon I Will Be Invincible. It's so much better than Worm, and (if I'm reading between the lines well here) has a "girl power" ending that I'm guessing you'd really love.

– Mason Wheeler
2 days ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















6














Some thoughts, in no particular order:



1. Educated people may speak in a more casual way than their education enables (but uneducated people are unlikely to be able to speak coherently in a more educated tone)



It is more jarring for an uneducated bum to talk like a research scientist than for a research scientist to mumble, cuss, talk like a valley girl, etc. I know you're including specifically formal situations, but it bears pointing out.



2. What you don't say often communicates more than what you do say



You yourself pointed out that it was an included word that struck you as out of place.



I once wrote a story where I wanted a character to distinctly feel foreign; I made a rule that she couldn't use any words coined after 1600 (or post-1600 definitions of older words), unless it was the name for a specific object that another character introduced her to (like "car"). Of course, I also have experience reading poetry, and books across several genres, written in 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, and grammar played a role - but vocabulary made a huge difference.



(I was surprised to find that most of the words I ended up using were NOT fancy or archaic-sounding. On the contrary, many old-fashioned-sounding words are artifacts of the 18th and 19th centuries.)



3. A well-educated person speaks more simply and directly



Plain speaking, without sub-culture-specific flourishes, just comes off as more concise and mature. Sadly, loading dialogue with unnecessarily complicated grammar or "look, I can use a thesaurus - badly" words WILL impress many an untrained ear. However, even to such an untrained ear, a straightforward, concise statement is preferable if your goal is to communicate information, and not just tag a character as "smart." And an author can show a character is smart by actually having the character say smart things!



Writing concisely can be difficult, though.



4. A widely read author has a deeper well to draw from



As hinted in point 1, if you yourself are educated - particularly from a wide variety of disciplines and levels of rigor - you will be more able to write like an educated person would speak. That is, an educated tone can't really be faked.






share|improve this answer


















  • 1





    I really like #2. (This author I'm referring to did go to college and got a degree in something like symbolic linguistics? basically how language affects perception, like HumanComputerInterface, but with language instead of computers, if I recall. So I expect a relatively high level from him, but it may be his output outpaces input, so he's perhaps not reading much else with his billion-word schedule.) He does a good job of having a variety of women characters "sound" female, yet distinctive, it's just something jarred a little about authority not quite sounding right at times.

    – April
    2 days ago







  • 1





    "Writing concisely can be difficult, though." True, but the author has a huge advantage over their characters, namely that what the character comes up with at the spur of the moment, the author can spend minutes, hours or even longer contemplating to get just right to convey exactly what the author wants that one statement to convey; nothing more, nothing less. (As for the characters saying smart things, that's a good point, but I think there are few things more jarring than having a smart character say smart things and then go actually do dumb, er, not-smart things.)

    – a CVn
    2 days ago











  • @aCVn Yes, I find plot-driven stupidity quite frustrating.

    – Jedediah
    2 days ago











  • @aCVn It's fairly common in real life though.

    – sgf
    2 days ago






  • 1





    @aCVn Yes, and it'd be really nice if some of my smart friends would stop breaking character like this... Or putting things another way, there are real people who do this. It's easier for some to learn to talk smart than to learn to be smart. Though, I guess the lesson there is if one has characters like that, some of the actually smarter characters should be able to tell the difference.

    – Ed Grimm
    yesterday


















3














Teachers and professors often pick up the lingo of their students; part of being a good teacher is being able to understand their speech and slang. Not only to communicate with them, but to pick up on things they shouldn't be saying.



I will also note that every generation, beginning around puberty to late college years, seems to invent some new slangs, specifically for the sociological function of creating distance between themselves and the older generation; by having, effectively, their own language only they understand. But kids seldom switch modes when adults are around and will use their 'code' in circumstances where the adults can deduce what it means. So an adult constantly around many kids, if they are paying attention, will pick up on the lingo, and may themselves slip into usage of it, sometimes as a joke with their peers, sometimes talking to kids, etc.



But in formal settings, I would not expect this; "regardless" is a substitute for "anyways", and most professors I know might say "anyway" in a formal setting (a meeting to discuss curriculum, perhaps) but never "anyways".






share|improve this answer

























  • What makes you think kids use generational slang in adults' presence because they "aren't smart enough" not to, as opposed to just spending a lot of time within earshot?

    – Milo P
    2 days ago






  • 1





    @MiloP Yeah, that is probably mean. I removed it and rewrote for more clarity.

    – Amadeus
    2 days ago


















1














There are two areas that show different speech patterns - casual speech and professional speech.



In casual speech, difference between educated and non-educated people may be nonexistent. Speech patterns here would rather follow social groups - i.e. average teenagers would speak somewhat differently from graduate students and, again, differently from middle age professors. You can try to emulate "professor's speech". Professors are usually good public (and private) speakers, capable of explaining complex subjects in layman terms. It would be a misconception, however, to think that educated people often use "smart" words in casual conversation.



In professional speech, thing are becoming different. Not only many special words are being used, the very structure of sentences may become different. In order to successfully depict how doctors, lawyers, physicists etc. discuss professional matters between themselves, one has to do some research.



I also would like to mention that this problem ("more educated than the author") is separate from a similar "more smart than the author" problem.






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    3 Answers
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    3 Answers
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    6














    Some thoughts, in no particular order:



    1. Educated people may speak in a more casual way than their education enables (but uneducated people are unlikely to be able to speak coherently in a more educated tone)



    It is more jarring for an uneducated bum to talk like a research scientist than for a research scientist to mumble, cuss, talk like a valley girl, etc. I know you're including specifically formal situations, but it bears pointing out.



    2. What you don't say often communicates more than what you do say



    You yourself pointed out that it was an included word that struck you as out of place.



    I once wrote a story where I wanted a character to distinctly feel foreign; I made a rule that she couldn't use any words coined after 1600 (or post-1600 definitions of older words), unless it was the name for a specific object that another character introduced her to (like "car"). Of course, I also have experience reading poetry, and books across several genres, written in 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, and grammar played a role - but vocabulary made a huge difference.



    (I was surprised to find that most of the words I ended up using were NOT fancy or archaic-sounding. On the contrary, many old-fashioned-sounding words are artifacts of the 18th and 19th centuries.)



    3. A well-educated person speaks more simply and directly



    Plain speaking, without sub-culture-specific flourishes, just comes off as more concise and mature. Sadly, loading dialogue with unnecessarily complicated grammar or "look, I can use a thesaurus - badly" words WILL impress many an untrained ear. However, even to such an untrained ear, a straightforward, concise statement is preferable if your goal is to communicate information, and not just tag a character as "smart." And an author can show a character is smart by actually having the character say smart things!



    Writing concisely can be difficult, though.



    4. A widely read author has a deeper well to draw from



    As hinted in point 1, if you yourself are educated - particularly from a wide variety of disciplines and levels of rigor - you will be more able to write like an educated person would speak. That is, an educated tone can't really be faked.






    share|improve this answer


















    • 1





      I really like #2. (This author I'm referring to did go to college and got a degree in something like symbolic linguistics? basically how language affects perception, like HumanComputerInterface, but with language instead of computers, if I recall. So I expect a relatively high level from him, but it may be his output outpaces input, so he's perhaps not reading much else with his billion-word schedule.) He does a good job of having a variety of women characters "sound" female, yet distinctive, it's just something jarred a little about authority not quite sounding right at times.

      – April
      2 days ago







    • 1





      "Writing concisely can be difficult, though." True, but the author has a huge advantage over their characters, namely that what the character comes up with at the spur of the moment, the author can spend minutes, hours or even longer contemplating to get just right to convey exactly what the author wants that one statement to convey; nothing more, nothing less. (As for the characters saying smart things, that's a good point, but I think there are few things more jarring than having a smart character say smart things and then go actually do dumb, er, not-smart things.)

      – a CVn
      2 days ago











    • @aCVn Yes, I find plot-driven stupidity quite frustrating.

      – Jedediah
      2 days ago











    • @aCVn It's fairly common in real life though.

      – sgf
      2 days ago






    • 1





      @aCVn Yes, and it'd be really nice if some of my smart friends would stop breaking character like this... Or putting things another way, there are real people who do this. It's easier for some to learn to talk smart than to learn to be smart. Though, I guess the lesson there is if one has characters like that, some of the actually smarter characters should be able to tell the difference.

      – Ed Grimm
      yesterday















    6














    Some thoughts, in no particular order:



    1. Educated people may speak in a more casual way than their education enables (but uneducated people are unlikely to be able to speak coherently in a more educated tone)



    It is more jarring for an uneducated bum to talk like a research scientist than for a research scientist to mumble, cuss, talk like a valley girl, etc. I know you're including specifically formal situations, but it bears pointing out.



    2. What you don't say often communicates more than what you do say



    You yourself pointed out that it was an included word that struck you as out of place.



    I once wrote a story where I wanted a character to distinctly feel foreign; I made a rule that she couldn't use any words coined after 1600 (or post-1600 definitions of older words), unless it was the name for a specific object that another character introduced her to (like "car"). Of course, I also have experience reading poetry, and books across several genres, written in 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, and grammar played a role - but vocabulary made a huge difference.



    (I was surprised to find that most of the words I ended up using were NOT fancy or archaic-sounding. On the contrary, many old-fashioned-sounding words are artifacts of the 18th and 19th centuries.)



    3. A well-educated person speaks more simply and directly



    Plain speaking, without sub-culture-specific flourishes, just comes off as more concise and mature. Sadly, loading dialogue with unnecessarily complicated grammar or "look, I can use a thesaurus - badly" words WILL impress many an untrained ear. However, even to such an untrained ear, a straightforward, concise statement is preferable if your goal is to communicate information, and not just tag a character as "smart." And an author can show a character is smart by actually having the character say smart things!



    Writing concisely can be difficult, though.



    4. A widely read author has a deeper well to draw from



    As hinted in point 1, if you yourself are educated - particularly from a wide variety of disciplines and levels of rigor - you will be more able to write like an educated person would speak. That is, an educated tone can't really be faked.






    share|improve this answer


















    • 1





      I really like #2. (This author I'm referring to did go to college and got a degree in something like symbolic linguistics? basically how language affects perception, like HumanComputerInterface, but with language instead of computers, if I recall. So I expect a relatively high level from him, but it may be his output outpaces input, so he's perhaps not reading much else with his billion-word schedule.) He does a good job of having a variety of women characters "sound" female, yet distinctive, it's just something jarred a little about authority not quite sounding right at times.

      – April
      2 days ago







    • 1





      "Writing concisely can be difficult, though." True, but the author has a huge advantage over their characters, namely that what the character comes up with at the spur of the moment, the author can spend minutes, hours or even longer contemplating to get just right to convey exactly what the author wants that one statement to convey; nothing more, nothing less. (As for the characters saying smart things, that's a good point, but I think there are few things more jarring than having a smart character say smart things and then go actually do dumb, er, not-smart things.)

      – a CVn
      2 days ago











    • @aCVn Yes, I find plot-driven stupidity quite frustrating.

      – Jedediah
      2 days ago











    • @aCVn It's fairly common in real life though.

      – sgf
      2 days ago






    • 1





      @aCVn Yes, and it'd be really nice if some of my smart friends would stop breaking character like this... Or putting things another way, there are real people who do this. It's easier for some to learn to talk smart than to learn to be smart. Though, I guess the lesson there is if one has characters like that, some of the actually smarter characters should be able to tell the difference.

      – Ed Grimm
      yesterday













    6












    6








    6







    Some thoughts, in no particular order:



    1. Educated people may speak in a more casual way than their education enables (but uneducated people are unlikely to be able to speak coherently in a more educated tone)



    It is more jarring for an uneducated bum to talk like a research scientist than for a research scientist to mumble, cuss, talk like a valley girl, etc. I know you're including specifically formal situations, but it bears pointing out.



    2. What you don't say often communicates more than what you do say



    You yourself pointed out that it was an included word that struck you as out of place.



    I once wrote a story where I wanted a character to distinctly feel foreign; I made a rule that she couldn't use any words coined after 1600 (or post-1600 definitions of older words), unless it was the name for a specific object that another character introduced her to (like "car"). Of course, I also have experience reading poetry, and books across several genres, written in 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, and grammar played a role - but vocabulary made a huge difference.



    (I was surprised to find that most of the words I ended up using were NOT fancy or archaic-sounding. On the contrary, many old-fashioned-sounding words are artifacts of the 18th and 19th centuries.)



    3. A well-educated person speaks more simply and directly



    Plain speaking, without sub-culture-specific flourishes, just comes off as more concise and mature. Sadly, loading dialogue with unnecessarily complicated grammar or "look, I can use a thesaurus - badly" words WILL impress many an untrained ear. However, even to such an untrained ear, a straightforward, concise statement is preferable if your goal is to communicate information, and not just tag a character as "smart." And an author can show a character is smart by actually having the character say smart things!



    Writing concisely can be difficult, though.



    4. A widely read author has a deeper well to draw from



    As hinted in point 1, if you yourself are educated - particularly from a wide variety of disciplines and levels of rigor - you will be more able to write like an educated person would speak. That is, an educated tone can't really be faked.






    share|improve this answer













    Some thoughts, in no particular order:



    1. Educated people may speak in a more casual way than their education enables (but uneducated people are unlikely to be able to speak coherently in a more educated tone)



    It is more jarring for an uneducated bum to talk like a research scientist than for a research scientist to mumble, cuss, talk like a valley girl, etc. I know you're including specifically formal situations, but it bears pointing out.



    2. What you don't say often communicates more than what you do say



    You yourself pointed out that it was an included word that struck you as out of place.



    I once wrote a story where I wanted a character to distinctly feel foreign; I made a rule that she couldn't use any words coined after 1600 (or post-1600 definitions of older words), unless it was the name for a specific object that another character introduced her to (like "car"). Of course, I also have experience reading poetry, and books across several genres, written in 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, and grammar played a role - but vocabulary made a huge difference.



    (I was surprised to find that most of the words I ended up using were NOT fancy or archaic-sounding. On the contrary, many old-fashioned-sounding words are artifacts of the 18th and 19th centuries.)



    3. A well-educated person speaks more simply and directly



    Plain speaking, without sub-culture-specific flourishes, just comes off as more concise and mature. Sadly, loading dialogue with unnecessarily complicated grammar or "look, I can use a thesaurus - badly" words WILL impress many an untrained ear. However, even to such an untrained ear, a straightforward, concise statement is preferable if your goal is to communicate information, and not just tag a character as "smart." And an author can show a character is smart by actually having the character say smart things!



    Writing concisely can be difficult, though.



    4. A widely read author has a deeper well to draw from



    As hinted in point 1, if you yourself are educated - particularly from a wide variety of disciplines and levels of rigor - you will be more able to write like an educated person would speak. That is, an educated tone can't really be faked.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 2 days ago









    JedediahJedediah

    3,420617




    3,420617







    • 1





      I really like #2. (This author I'm referring to did go to college and got a degree in something like symbolic linguistics? basically how language affects perception, like HumanComputerInterface, but with language instead of computers, if I recall. So I expect a relatively high level from him, but it may be his output outpaces input, so he's perhaps not reading much else with his billion-word schedule.) He does a good job of having a variety of women characters "sound" female, yet distinctive, it's just something jarred a little about authority not quite sounding right at times.

      – April
      2 days ago







    • 1





      "Writing concisely can be difficult, though." True, but the author has a huge advantage over their characters, namely that what the character comes up with at the spur of the moment, the author can spend minutes, hours or even longer contemplating to get just right to convey exactly what the author wants that one statement to convey; nothing more, nothing less. (As for the characters saying smart things, that's a good point, but I think there are few things more jarring than having a smart character say smart things and then go actually do dumb, er, not-smart things.)

      – a CVn
      2 days ago











    • @aCVn Yes, I find plot-driven stupidity quite frustrating.

      – Jedediah
      2 days ago











    • @aCVn It's fairly common in real life though.

      – sgf
      2 days ago






    • 1





      @aCVn Yes, and it'd be really nice if some of my smart friends would stop breaking character like this... Or putting things another way, there are real people who do this. It's easier for some to learn to talk smart than to learn to be smart. Though, I guess the lesson there is if one has characters like that, some of the actually smarter characters should be able to tell the difference.

      – Ed Grimm
      yesterday












    • 1





      I really like #2. (This author I'm referring to did go to college and got a degree in something like symbolic linguistics? basically how language affects perception, like HumanComputerInterface, but with language instead of computers, if I recall. So I expect a relatively high level from him, but it may be his output outpaces input, so he's perhaps not reading much else with his billion-word schedule.) He does a good job of having a variety of women characters "sound" female, yet distinctive, it's just something jarred a little about authority not quite sounding right at times.

      – April
      2 days ago







    • 1





      "Writing concisely can be difficult, though." True, but the author has a huge advantage over their characters, namely that what the character comes up with at the spur of the moment, the author can spend minutes, hours or even longer contemplating to get just right to convey exactly what the author wants that one statement to convey; nothing more, nothing less. (As for the characters saying smart things, that's a good point, but I think there are few things more jarring than having a smart character say smart things and then go actually do dumb, er, not-smart things.)

      – a CVn
      2 days ago











    • @aCVn Yes, I find plot-driven stupidity quite frustrating.

      – Jedediah
      2 days ago











    • @aCVn It's fairly common in real life though.

      – sgf
      2 days ago






    • 1





      @aCVn Yes, and it'd be really nice if some of my smart friends would stop breaking character like this... Or putting things another way, there are real people who do this. It's easier for some to learn to talk smart than to learn to be smart. Though, I guess the lesson there is if one has characters like that, some of the actually smarter characters should be able to tell the difference.

      – Ed Grimm
      yesterday







    1




    1





    I really like #2. (This author I'm referring to did go to college and got a degree in something like symbolic linguistics? basically how language affects perception, like HumanComputerInterface, but with language instead of computers, if I recall. So I expect a relatively high level from him, but it may be his output outpaces input, so he's perhaps not reading much else with his billion-word schedule.) He does a good job of having a variety of women characters "sound" female, yet distinctive, it's just something jarred a little about authority not quite sounding right at times.

    – April
    2 days ago






    I really like #2. (This author I'm referring to did go to college and got a degree in something like symbolic linguistics? basically how language affects perception, like HumanComputerInterface, but with language instead of computers, if I recall. So I expect a relatively high level from him, but it may be his output outpaces input, so he's perhaps not reading much else with his billion-word schedule.) He does a good job of having a variety of women characters "sound" female, yet distinctive, it's just something jarred a little about authority not quite sounding right at times.

    – April
    2 days ago





    1




    1





    "Writing concisely can be difficult, though." True, but the author has a huge advantage over their characters, namely that what the character comes up with at the spur of the moment, the author can spend minutes, hours or even longer contemplating to get just right to convey exactly what the author wants that one statement to convey; nothing more, nothing less. (As for the characters saying smart things, that's a good point, but I think there are few things more jarring than having a smart character say smart things and then go actually do dumb, er, not-smart things.)

    – a CVn
    2 days ago





    "Writing concisely can be difficult, though." True, but the author has a huge advantage over their characters, namely that what the character comes up with at the spur of the moment, the author can spend minutes, hours or even longer contemplating to get just right to convey exactly what the author wants that one statement to convey; nothing more, nothing less. (As for the characters saying smart things, that's a good point, but I think there are few things more jarring than having a smart character say smart things and then go actually do dumb, er, not-smart things.)

    – a CVn
    2 days ago













    @aCVn Yes, I find plot-driven stupidity quite frustrating.

    – Jedediah
    2 days ago





    @aCVn Yes, I find plot-driven stupidity quite frustrating.

    – Jedediah
    2 days ago













    @aCVn It's fairly common in real life though.

    – sgf
    2 days ago





    @aCVn It's fairly common in real life though.

    – sgf
    2 days ago




    1




    1





    @aCVn Yes, and it'd be really nice if some of my smart friends would stop breaking character like this... Or putting things another way, there are real people who do this. It's easier for some to learn to talk smart than to learn to be smart. Though, I guess the lesson there is if one has characters like that, some of the actually smarter characters should be able to tell the difference.

    – Ed Grimm
    yesterday





    @aCVn Yes, and it'd be really nice if some of my smart friends would stop breaking character like this... Or putting things another way, there are real people who do this. It's easier for some to learn to talk smart than to learn to be smart. Though, I guess the lesson there is if one has characters like that, some of the actually smarter characters should be able to tell the difference.

    – Ed Grimm
    yesterday











    3














    Teachers and professors often pick up the lingo of their students; part of being a good teacher is being able to understand their speech and slang. Not only to communicate with them, but to pick up on things they shouldn't be saying.



    I will also note that every generation, beginning around puberty to late college years, seems to invent some new slangs, specifically for the sociological function of creating distance between themselves and the older generation; by having, effectively, their own language only they understand. But kids seldom switch modes when adults are around and will use their 'code' in circumstances where the adults can deduce what it means. So an adult constantly around many kids, if they are paying attention, will pick up on the lingo, and may themselves slip into usage of it, sometimes as a joke with their peers, sometimes talking to kids, etc.



    But in formal settings, I would not expect this; "regardless" is a substitute for "anyways", and most professors I know might say "anyway" in a formal setting (a meeting to discuss curriculum, perhaps) but never "anyways".






    share|improve this answer

























    • What makes you think kids use generational slang in adults' presence because they "aren't smart enough" not to, as opposed to just spending a lot of time within earshot?

      – Milo P
      2 days ago






    • 1





      @MiloP Yeah, that is probably mean. I removed it and rewrote for more clarity.

      – Amadeus
      2 days ago















    3














    Teachers and professors often pick up the lingo of their students; part of being a good teacher is being able to understand their speech and slang. Not only to communicate with them, but to pick up on things they shouldn't be saying.



    I will also note that every generation, beginning around puberty to late college years, seems to invent some new slangs, specifically for the sociological function of creating distance between themselves and the older generation; by having, effectively, their own language only they understand. But kids seldom switch modes when adults are around and will use their 'code' in circumstances where the adults can deduce what it means. So an adult constantly around many kids, if they are paying attention, will pick up on the lingo, and may themselves slip into usage of it, sometimes as a joke with their peers, sometimes talking to kids, etc.



    But in formal settings, I would not expect this; "regardless" is a substitute for "anyways", and most professors I know might say "anyway" in a formal setting (a meeting to discuss curriculum, perhaps) but never "anyways".






    share|improve this answer

























    • What makes you think kids use generational slang in adults' presence because they "aren't smart enough" not to, as opposed to just spending a lot of time within earshot?

      – Milo P
      2 days ago






    • 1





      @MiloP Yeah, that is probably mean. I removed it and rewrote for more clarity.

      – Amadeus
      2 days ago













    3












    3








    3







    Teachers and professors often pick up the lingo of their students; part of being a good teacher is being able to understand their speech and slang. Not only to communicate with them, but to pick up on things they shouldn't be saying.



    I will also note that every generation, beginning around puberty to late college years, seems to invent some new slangs, specifically for the sociological function of creating distance between themselves and the older generation; by having, effectively, their own language only they understand. But kids seldom switch modes when adults are around and will use their 'code' in circumstances where the adults can deduce what it means. So an adult constantly around many kids, if they are paying attention, will pick up on the lingo, and may themselves slip into usage of it, sometimes as a joke with their peers, sometimes talking to kids, etc.



    But in formal settings, I would not expect this; "regardless" is a substitute for "anyways", and most professors I know might say "anyway" in a formal setting (a meeting to discuss curriculum, perhaps) but never "anyways".






    share|improve this answer















    Teachers and professors often pick up the lingo of their students; part of being a good teacher is being able to understand their speech and slang. Not only to communicate with them, but to pick up on things they shouldn't be saying.



    I will also note that every generation, beginning around puberty to late college years, seems to invent some new slangs, specifically for the sociological function of creating distance between themselves and the older generation; by having, effectively, their own language only they understand. But kids seldom switch modes when adults are around and will use their 'code' in circumstances where the adults can deduce what it means. So an adult constantly around many kids, if they are paying attention, will pick up on the lingo, and may themselves slip into usage of it, sometimes as a joke with their peers, sometimes talking to kids, etc.



    But in formal settings, I would not expect this; "regardless" is a substitute for "anyways", and most professors I know might say "anyway" in a formal setting (a meeting to discuss curriculum, perhaps) but never "anyways".







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 2 days ago

























    answered 2 days ago









    AmadeusAmadeus

    59.2k677188




    59.2k677188












    • What makes you think kids use generational slang in adults' presence because they "aren't smart enough" not to, as opposed to just spending a lot of time within earshot?

      – Milo P
      2 days ago






    • 1





      @MiloP Yeah, that is probably mean. I removed it and rewrote for more clarity.

      – Amadeus
      2 days ago

















    • What makes you think kids use generational slang in adults' presence because they "aren't smart enough" not to, as opposed to just spending a lot of time within earshot?

      – Milo P
      2 days ago






    • 1





      @MiloP Yeah, that is probably mean. I removed it and rewrote for more clarity.

      – Amadeus
      2 days ago
















    What makes you think kids use generational slang in adults' presence because they "aren't smart enough" not to, as opposed to just spending a lot of time within earshot?

    – Milo P
    2 days ago





    What makes you think kids use generational slang in adults' presence because they "aren't smart enough" not to, as opposed to just spending a lot of time within earshot?

    – Milo P
    2 days ago




    1




    1





    @MiloP Yeah, that is probably mean. I removed it and rewrote for more clarity.

    – Amadeus
    2 days ago





    @MiloP Yeah, that is probably mean. I removed it and rewrote for more clarity.

    – Amadeus
    2 days ago











    1














    There are two areas that show different speech patterns - casual speech and professional speech.



    In casual speech, difference between educated and non-educated people may be nonexistent. Speech patterns here would rather follow social groups - i.e. average teenagers would speak somewhat differently from graduate students and, again, differently from middle age professors. You can try to emulate "professor's speech". Professors are usually good public (and private) speakers, capable of explaining complex subjects in layman terms. It would be a misconception, however, to think that educated people often use "smart" words in casual conversation.



    In professional speech, thing are becoming different. Not only many special words are being used, the very structure of sentences may become different. In order to successfully depict how doctors, lawyers, physicists etc. discuss professional matters between themselves, one has to do some research.



    I also would like to mention that this problem ("more educated than the author") is separate from a similar "more smart than the author" problem.






    share|improve this answer



























      1














      There are two areas that show different speech patterns - casual speech and professional speech.



      In casual speech, difference between educated and non-educated people may be nonexistent. Speech patterns here would rather follow social groups - i.e. average teenagers would speak somewhat differently from graduate students and, again, differently from middle age professors. You can try to emulate "professor's speech". Professors are usually good public (and private) speakers, capable of explaining complex subjects in layman terms. It would be a misconception, however, to think that educated people often use "smart" words in casual conversation.



      In professional speech, thing are becoming different. Not only many special words are being used, the very structure of sentences may become different. In order to successfully depict how doctors, lawyers, physicists etc. discuss professional matters between themselves, one has to do some research.



      I also would like to mention that this problem ("more educated than the author") is separate from a similar "more smart than the author" problem.






      share|improve this answer

























        1












        1








        1







        There are two areas that show different speech patterns - casual speech and professional speech.



        In casual speech, difference between educated and non-educated people may be nonexistent. Speech patterns here would rather follow social groups - i.e. average teenagers would speak somewhat differently from graduate students and, again, differently from middle age professors. You can try to emulate "professor's speech". Professors are usually good public (and private) speakers, capable of explaining complex subjects in layman terms. It would be a misconception, however, to think that educated people often use "smart" words in casual conversation.



        In professional speech, thing are becoming different. Not only many special words are being used, the very structure of sentences may become different. In order to successfully depict how doctors, lawyers, physicists etc. discuss professional matters between themselves, one has to do some research.



        I also would like to mention that this problem ("more educated than the author") is separate from a similar "more smart than the author" problem.






        share|improve this answer













        There are two areas that show different speech patterns - casual speech and professional speech.



        In casual speech, difference between educated and non-educated people may be nonexistent. Speech patterns here would rather follow social groups - i.e. average teenagers would speak somewhat differently from graduate students and, again, differently from middle age professors. You can try to emulate "professor's speech". Professors are usually good public (and private) speakers, capable of explaining complex subjects in layman terms. It would be a misconception, however, to think that educated people often use "smart" words in casual conversation.



        In professional speech, thing are becoming different. Not only many special words are being used, the very structure of sentences may become different. In order to successfully depict how doctors, lawyers, physicists etc. discuss professional matters between themselves, one has to do some research.



        I also would like to mention that this problem ("more educated than the author") is separate from a similar "more smart than the author" problem.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 2 days ago









        AlexanderAlexander

        3,690413




        3,690413



























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            Middle Expansion Olielle Resaix Definition: Uttering songs of triumph shouting with joy triumphant exulting Sejunction Journal 붙다 달 고급 품목 외출 The stretch trades the screeching tin. Definition: The act of speaking with a drawl a drawl Cough Sand Definition: An uproar a quarrel a noisy outbreak Shake Iron Publicize Horse House Baby 사과 Resaix Flaggy Jelly Temporary Unequaled Puppet A drop in the bucket Shrew 성격 회원 성질 미팅 The burn frames the tacky quality. Materialistic The smoke reduces the way. Yammoe Nondescript Cheek 얼굴 배 약하다 날리다 타다 The illegal country shows the iron. Help Rule Drearien Smoke Teaching Meaty Wasp Abraham Lincoln Jaws 진심 수리하다 Size Cork Idea Convert Think Lark John Lennon 거울 청소 군 추천하다 아이스크림