Why do planes need a roll motion?Are the functions of ailerons and rudder similar?What is the name for yaw, pitch and roll together?What is it called when you roll without yawing or pitching?Why does increasing thrust on one engine make the plane roll and not yaw?What is the direction convention for Roll angle?How to correct a roll due to turbulence?What is the axis of rotation in a high alpha roll?Flight physics for a rollHow long can a commercial airliner fly at 90deg roll?What's the relationship between aileron deflection and roll moment?What are the exact meanings of roll, pitch and yaw?

Purchased new computer from DELL with pre-installed Ubuntu. Won't boot. Should assume its an error from DELL?

Is Odin inconsistent about the powers of Mjolnir?

Making pause in a diagram

Repeated! Factorials!

Did WWII Japanese soldiers engage in cannibalism of their enemies?

Does the spell "Silence" affect the caster?

Why don't the open notes matter in guitar chords?

How to help new students accept function notation

Why do private jets such as Gulfstream fly higher than other civilian jets?

How to realistically deal with a shield user?

How to dogfight in Elite: Dangerous?

Why should I "believe in" weak solutions to PDEs?

Why should public servants be apolitical?

Did Captain America make out with his niece?

Is the Folding Boat truly seaworthy?

How do I get the =LEFT function in excel, to also take the number zero as the first number?

How easy is it to get a gun illegally in the United States?

Is Network I/O included in the timings for "RPC complete" seen in SQL Profiler?

Did silent film actors actually say their lines or did they simply improvise “dialogue” while being filmed?

Is it a bad idea to offer variants of a final exam based on the type of allowed calculators?

What are the examples (applications) of the MIPs in which the objective function has nonzero coefficients for only continuous variables?

Should I self-publish my novella on Amazon or try my luck getting publishers?

"In charge of" vs "Responsible for"

Where to pee in London?



Why do planes need a roll motion?


Are the functions of ailerons and rudder similar?What is the name for yaw, pitch and roll together?What is it called when you roll without yawing or pitching?Why does increasing thrust on one engine make the plane roll and not yaw?What is the direction convention for Roll angle?How to correct a roll due to turbulence?What is the axis of rotation in a high alpha roll?Flight physics for a rollHow long can a commercial airliner fly at 90deg roll?What's the relationship between aileron deflection and roll moment?What are the exact meanings of roll, pitch and yaw?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








8












$begingroup$


Isn't only pitching up/down and yawing right/left enough for travelling from one location to another?










share|improve this question









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    @TonyK thanks, noted down.
    $endgroup$
    – muyustan
    Jul 28 at 20:20






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Possible duplicate of Are the functions of ailerons and rudder similar?
    $endgroup$
    – fooot
    Jul 29 at 14:50










  • $begingroup$
    So Tex John can do this in a 707 and sell some airplanes.
    $endgroup$
    – BruceWayne
    Jul 29 at 16:34


















8












$begingroup$


Isn't only pitching up/down and yawing right/left enough for travelling from one location to another?










share|improve this question









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    @TonyK thanks, noted down.
    $endgroup$
    – muyustan
    Jul 28 at 20:20






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Possible duplicate of Are the functions of ailerons and rudder similar?
    $endgroup$
    – fooot
    Jul 29 at 14:50










  • $begingroup$
    So Tex John can do this in a 707 and sell some airplanes.
    $endgroup$
    – BruceWayne
    Jul 29 at 16:34














8












8








8





$begingroup$


Isn't only pitching up/down and yawing right/left enough for travelling from one location to another?










share|improve this question









$endgroup$




Isn't only pitching up/down and yawing right/left enough for travelling from one location to another?







roll






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked Jul 27 at 20:07









muyustanmuyustan

1102 silver badges9 bronze badges




1102 silver badges9 bronze badges














  • $begingroup$
    @TonyK thanks, noted down.
    $endgroup$
    – muyustan
    Jul 28 at 20:20






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Possible duplicate of Are the functions of ailerons and rudder similar?
    $endgroup$
    – fooot
    Jul 29 at 14:50










  • $begingroup$
    So Tex John can do this in a 707 and sell some airplanes.
    $endgroup$
    – BruceWayne
    Jul 29 at 16:34

















  • $begingroup$
    @TonyK thanks, noted down.
    $endgroup$
    – muyustan
    Jul 28 at 20:20






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Possible duplicate of Are the functions of ailerons and rudder similar?
    $endgroup$
    – fooot
    Jul 29 at 14:50










  • $begingroup$
    So Tex John can do this in a 707 and sell some airplanes.
    $endgroup$
    – BruceWayne
    Jul 29 at 16:34
















$begingroup$
@TonyK thanks, noted down.
$endgroup$
– muyustan
Jul 28 at 20:20




$begingroup$
@TonyK thanks, noted down.
$endgroup$
– muyustan
Jul 28 at 20:20




2




2




$begingroup$
Possible duplicate of Are the functions of ailerons and rudder similar?
$endgroup$
– fooot
Jul 29 at 14:50




$begingroup$
Possible duplicate of Are the functions of ailerons and rudder similar?
$endgroup$
– fooot
Jul 29 at 14:50












$begingroup$
So Tex John can do this in a 707 and sell some airplanes.
$endgroup$
– BruceWayne
Jul 29 at 16:34





$begingroup$
So Tex John can do this in a 707 and sell some airplanes.
$endgroup$
– BruceWayne
Jul 29 at 16:34











6 Answers
6






active

oldest

votes


















19












$begingroup$

This answer is specifically for a fixed-wing airplane, not a helicopter or multicopter, although some aspects of it will apply to them too.



What is a turn? A turn is a curvature in the flight path. This means a turn is a form of acceleration. Specifically, a centripetal acceleration-- the flight path is being continually "bent" toward the center of the turn, creating a circular path.



Newton's second law is force = mass * acceleration, or acceleration = force / mass. You can't have an acceleration unless you are exerting a force to cause that acceleration. You can't have a centripetal acceleration unless you are exerting a centripetal force-- a force vector pointing toward the center of the turn.



What part of an aircraft is designed to produce force as efficiently as possible? The wing. If you roll the aircraft into a bank, you tilt the wing's lift force to one side, and you've now a created a centripetal force as efficiently as possible-- i.e. with the least drag possible.



Instead of banking, you can also turn by yawing the fuselage sideways relative to the flight path to expose the side of the fuselage to the airflow. Essentially this makes the fuselage act as a sideways wing, generating some sideways lift or "sideforce". This method also points the thrust vector from the engine or engines sideways relative to the flight path. So this method will create some centripetal force, but it is very inefficient-- drag will be very high. It will also be uncomfortable for anyone in the plane as they will tend to be thrown against the "upwind" side of the fuselage.



Note the difference between causing or allowing just enough yaw rotation to let the nose track around the horizon and "keep up with" the changing the direction of the flight path as the flight path curves due to the centripetal force generated by the banked wing, and forcing the nose to yaw to point in a different direction than the aircraft is actually travelling through the air at any given instant, as would be required if you were trying to turn without banking at all.



A car on flat ground can turn without banking fairly efficiently but that's only because the tires usually grip the road quite well, so it only takes a very small sideways angle between the alignment of each wheel, and the instantaneous path of travel of that part of the car, to generate a strong sideways force. So you don't scrub off a lot of energy due to excess drag. Very different from dragging a fuselage sideways through the air at a large sideslip angle.



A good source for starting to learn about the basic physics of flight is John S. Denker's "See How It Flies" website . On second thought, this website is not so much designed to introduce a complete novice to the basic principles of flight, as to help someone with some flying experience and training understand the "why" of it all on deeper lever than some pilots ever manage to reach in a whole lifetime of flying!






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    $endgroup$
    – Federico
    Jul 29 at 18:09










  • $begingroup$
    Might be worth adding to your answer that the primary function of the rudder is not to steer the aircraft (as one might intuitively think) but to co-ordinate turning flight and cancel out any lateral aerodynamic forces by keeping the aircraft pointed into the relative wind. It has a secondary function to intentionally create a sideways force in a maneuver called a sideslip used to either bleed energy for landing or keep the aircraft pointed down the runway during a crosswind landing.
    $endgroup$
    – Anthony X
    Jul 29 at 20:58



















9












$begingroup$

Think about the airplane as a body you want to control. That object has 6 degrees of freedom, including rolling. If you remove rolling you will not be able to control airplane's roll. Imagine a situation, when an small mass is over the wing and the airplane starts to roll and you are not able to compensate it.



Saying that, the way to control yaw is to use the vertical plane, and, the vertical plane will generate roll that you will need to compensate. So yaw and roll are coupled.



On the other side, the preferred way to perform a turn in the air is using roll, not using yaw. It is more efficient and faster (in space) than using yaw






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    Roll can be controlled indirectly by wing dihedral. The Fokker "Spin" only had elevator/rudder for control, and could successfully fly around the Haarlem cathedral in 1911.
    $endgroup$
    – Koyovis
    Jul 28 at 4:14










  • $begingroup$
    Even if it's perfectly balanced it'd be hard to maintain a heading, and impossible to change it and remain level. There's some suggested reading... I'd suggest KSP, because roll control failure is precisely the reason I didn't get to space today in my SSTO (and because KSP is the only reason I understand any of this).
    $endgroup$
    – Mazura
    Jul 28 at 19:38










  • $begingroup$
    @Mazura Likewise radio-controlled sailplanes like Gentle Lady, Radian do well with no ailerons but that's because ample dihedral gives lots of slip- roll coupling for good roll control based on rudder inputs. No problem doing steep turns, sustained inverted flight including some turning maneuvers, and even full 360-degree rolls (at least w/ Radian with motor on for extra airflow over tail). "Super Floater" ultralight sailplane (original version) is a full-sized counterpart; later version had flatter wing and ailerons.
    $endgroup$
    – quiet flyer
    Jul 28 at 21:34



















9












$begingroup$

In addition to the use in turning, you need to realize that the atmosphere is not static. It's in constant motion, both horizontally and vertically. The vertical currents can be strong enough, and localized enough, to tilt one wing or the other*, thus causing an involuntary roll. If you don't have some means to counteract this induced roll, you now have a plane that is highly unstable and likely to crash.



*Flying a sailplane or small power plane on a day with lots of thermal activity is a constant balancing act, using small control motions to keep the wings level (or at the bank angle you want) despite what the atmosphere wants to do to you. And let's not even get into the sort of vertical currents you can get from storms...






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$










  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Forget while at altitude. During one training flight, while doing touch-and-gos, I had an upset early during climbout which resulted in one wing dipping considerably. I don't dare guess by how much, but it caused a significant bank, and we were at a few hundred feet or so AGL. Let's just say I was happy to have the ailerons then!
    $endgroup$
    – a CVn
    Jul 28 at 8:30


















4












$begingroup$

Here's simple way to conceive it. An airplane turns by tilting the lift force from straight up to angled off to one side, and to do this, it has to bank.



Imagine the SpaceX rocket hovering. If it wants to move sideways, it tilts its thrust line off vertical. With the thrust line now pointed at, say, 11 O'clock instead of 12, some of the thrust is now creating a lateral force and the rocket moves sideways. To keep from descending while moving sideways, the total thrust has to be increased to compensate for the portion of thrust now working to move the body sideways. But in any case, it's the tilting of the thrust line that makes it move sideways.



The airplane's wings are making thrust (by redirecting a large package of air above and below downward) as it moves along. If you tilt the wings, it's like the rocket tilting. The thrust being created by the wings is tilted by the amount of the bank angle, and part of the wings' thrust or lift is now creating a lateral force, making the airplane move sideways.



But the airplane isn't hovering, it's moving forward while this is going on. Because it's moving forward, the sideways movement created by banking the wings results in it moving in a horizontal arc. That's a turn. Like the earlier rocket analogy, to keep from descending the airplane has to increase its total lift thrust to compensate for the thrust lost by using it to move laterally. So you have to pitch up a bit to make more total thrust (lift) from the wings as you turn or you'll descend.



Helicopters are the same. If it's hovering stationary, and you want it to move sideways, you tilt the rotor disc to angle the thrust line of the rotor. If the helicopter is flying forward while this is being done, it moves sideways and forward at the same time, creating a horizontal arc, or a turn, just like the airplane.



Turning by skidding is possible also, but is also very inefficient. Hovercraft, which are really just ground effect airplane/helicopters, turn this way because they have no choice; they simply can't bank when they need to stay so close to the surface just to stay clear of it. A hovercraft takes forever to turn because it has to skid sideways and use the lateral force of it's engine thrust to make the change in direction and this really limits their maneuverability.



However, if you drive your hovercraft on a bicycle race track with banked corners, at the right speed appropriate to the bank angle, you just have to keep driving it "straight", that is, just keeping the tail end lined up with the nose end, and the hovercraft is changing direction without having to skid. In an airplane, you bank the lifting force instead of the supporting surface and just work on keeping the tail lined up behind the nose (ball centered), and around you go. Not a perfect analogy by any means but sufficient to be able to visualize the forces at work.



There ARE times in flying where you use skidding to make changes in direction - mainly formation flying, which includes glider towing. When close to another airplane, it's not a good idea to move closer by banking toward the airplane you're formating on. You maneuver by skidding, taking advantage of the inefficiency of skidding maneuvers you might say, to able to make subtle position changes will less risk of running into your formation object. Glider pilots also learn to adjust lateral position by skids and minimal amounts of bank where needed.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$










  • 1




    $begingroup$
    A fixed wing aeroplane can also turn by deflecting the rudder. Helicopters as well. So why do they require roll for turning, would still be the question.
    $endgroup$
    – Koyovis
    Jul 28 at 4:19






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    An airplane's wings do not generate thrust. Wings generate lift, but lift is not thrust (in typical nomenclature). Spacecraft are hugely different from aircraft in that they typically operate in an environment where there is very little to nothing to push off against, and therefore they have to rely on thrust. (Compare spaceplane designs like the space shuttle orbiter.) I usually like your answers, but conflating lift and thrust doesn't seem likely to help someone who is struggling to understand why airplanes use roll, even though there are cases where they can be oriented along the same axis.
    $endgroup$
    – a CVn
    Jul 28 at 8:26






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Koyovis: Because banking is a much more efficient & controllable way of turning. You might ask yourself why curves on highways (well-designed ones, anyway) are banked, or why motorcycles & bicycles "bank" when turning.
    $endgroup$
    – jamesqf
    Jul 28 at 17:10











  • $begingroup$
    @aCVn yes it's thrust. It's action/reaction of air being displaced. A propeller makes "thrust", from a column of air accelerated aft. It's just a wing going round and round, inducing air to move.
    $endgroup$
    – John K
    Jul 28 at 18:17










  • $begingroup$
    Recommending maneuvering in close formation by skidding alone is not a good general recommendation. All 3 axes are in play at all times, you just need to use small smooth corrections, but rolling is certainly an option.
    $endgroup$
    – Michael Hall
    Jul 28 at 19:24


















3












$begingroup$

Pitching up/down and yawing left/right would be adequate for a high wing dihedral design, were it not for the need for cross wind control. A high wing dihedral will make beautiful banked turns simply by pushing the rudder. The dihedral banks the plane away from the rudder induced slip. Great for indoors models.



Unfortunately, in a full scale outdoors (pilot in the plane) cross wind landing situation, this design would be very difficult to control without ailerons to bank the plane into the wind (in order to prevent lateral drift), while the rudder maintains ground heading.



Without ailerons, this type of plane would be easily rolled and blown sideways out of control, unless it was landed directly into the wind.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$






















    1












    $begingroup$

    If a plane is moving e.g. north and one wants it to be moving northeast, one must apply an eastward force to the airplane. A plane has four kinds of forces acting upon it--thrust, drag (force parallel to motion), "lift" (force perpendicular to motion), and gravity. The direction of gravity can't be changed, and drag will be parallel to the direction the plane is moving, rather than the direction one wants it to go. Thus, the only two forces that can be used to change the direction the plane is moving (as opposed to pointing) are thrust and lift.



    If one didn't turn very fast, one could change an airplane's direction of motion while keeping the wings "level" side-to-side, but one's ability to do this in most planes would be very limited because thrust is small relative to lift, and wings are designed to produce lift from relative air motion in a fore-to-aft direction, rather than sideways. Consequently, it wouldn't be possible to change the direction of thrust very much relative to the direction of motion without rendering the wings ineffective. Banking makes it possible to change a plane's direction much more effectively because rather than using a tiny portion of the relatively small thrust force for that purpose, it uses a much greater portion of a much larger lift force.



    As mentioned by Quiet Flier, the side profile of the fuselage may act something like a wing with regard to air which is moving past the plane at a sideways angle, and thus provide some sideways acceleration, but since most planes' bodies aren't designed to be used in this fashion, they will be far more effective at producing force perpendicular to air movement than would be wings which are actually designed for that purpose.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$














    • $begingroup$
      This answer could be expanded to mention aerodynamic sideforcec which is sideways lift generated by the fuselage acting as a sideways wing. Even gliders with ample fuselage side area can do wings-level skidding turns, though it is horribly inefficient, and the turn rate is low, and the maneuver invites a spin if the airspeed is allowed to drop too low. With a typical light plane I would assume that an unbanked turn would be driven by this effect more than the sideways component of engine thrust.
      $endgroup$
      – quiet flyer
      Jul 29 at 16:45














    Your Answer








    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "528"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: true,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    imageUploader:
    brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
    contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
    allowUrls: true
    ,
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );













    draft saved

    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2faviation.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f67026%2fwhy-do-planes-need-a-roll-motion%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest















    Required, but never shown

























    6 Answers
    6






    active

    oldest

    votes








    6 Answers
    6






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    19












    $begingroup$

    This answer is specifically for a fixed-wing airplane, not a helicopter or multicopter, although some aspects of it will apply to them too.



    What is a turn? A turn is a curvature in the flight path. This means a turn is a form of acceleration. Specifically, a centripetal acceleration-- the flight path is being continually "bent" toward the center of the turn, creating a circular path.



    Newton's second law is force = mass * acceleration, or acceleration = force / mass. You can't have an acceleration unless you are exerting a force to cause that acceleration. You can't have a centripetal acceleration unless you are exerting a centripetal force-- a force vector pointing toward the center of the turn.



    What part of an aircraft is designed to produce force as efficiently as possible? The wing. If you roll the aircraft into a bank, you tilt the wing's lift force to one side, and you've now a created a centripetal force as efficiently as possible-- i.e. with the least drag possible.



    Instead of banking, you can also turn by yawing the fuselage sideways relative to the flight path to expose the side of the fuselage to the airflow. Essentially this makes the fuselage act as a sideways wing, generating some sideways lift or "sideforce". This method also points the thrust vector from the engine or engines sideways relative to the flight path. So this method will create some centripetal force, but it is very inefficient-- drag will be very high. It will also be uncomfortable for anyone in the plane as they will tend to be thrown against the "upwind" side of the fuselage.



    Note the difference between causing or allowing just enough yaw rotation to let the nose track around the horizon and "keep up with" the changing the direction of the flight path as the flight path curves due to the centripetal force generated by the banked wing, and forcing the nose to yaw to point in a different direction than the aircraft is actually travelling through the air at any given instant, as would be required if you were trying to turn without banking at all.



    A car on flat ground can turn without banking fairly efficiently but that's only because the tires usually grip the road quite well, so it only takes a very small sideways angle between the alignment of each wheel, and the instantaneous path of travel of that part of the car, to generate a strong sideways force. So you don't scrub off a lot of energy due to excess drag. Very different from dragging a fuselage sideways through the air at a large sideslip angle.



    A good source for starting to learn about the basic physics of flight is John S. Denker's "See How It Flies" website . On second thought, this website is not so much designed to introduce a complete novice to the basic principles of flight, as to help someone with some flying experience and training understand the "why" of it all on deeper lever than some pilots ever manage to reach in a whole lifetime of flying!






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$














    • $begingroup$
      Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
      $endgroup$
      – Federico
      Jul 29 at 18:09










    • $begingroup$
      Might be worth adding to your answer that the primary function of the rudder is not to steer the aircraft (as one might intuitively think) but to co-ordinate turning flight and cancel out any lateral aerodynamic forces by keeping the aircraft pointed into the relative wind. It has a secondary function to intentionally create a sideways force in a maneuver called a sideslip used to either bleed energy for landing or keep the aircraft pointed down the runway during a crosswind landing.
      $endgroup$
      – Anthony X
      Jul 29 at 20:58
















    19












    $begingroup$

    This answer is specifically for a fixed-wing airplane, not a helicopter or multicopter, although some aspects of it will apply to them too.



    What is a turn? A turn is a curvature in the flight path. This means a turn is a form of acceleration. Specifically, a centripetal acceleration-- the flight path is being continually "bent" toward the center of the turn, creating a circular path.



    Newton's second law is force = mass * acceleration, or acceleration = force / mass. You can't have an acceleration unless you are exerting a force to cause that acceleration. You can't have a centripetal acceleration unless you are exerting a centripetal force-- a force vector pointing toward the center of the turn.



    What part of an aircraft is designed to produce force as efficiently as possible? The wing. If you roll the aircraft into a bank, you tilt the wing's lift force to one side, and you've now a created a centripetal force as efficiently as possible-- i.e. with the least drag possible.



    Instead of banking, you can also turn by yawing the fuselage sideways relative to the flight path to expose the side of the fuselage to the airflow. Essentially this makes the fuselage act as a sideways wing, generating some sideways lift or "sideforce". This method also points the thrust vector from the engine or engines sideways relative to the flight path. So this method will create some centripetal force, but it is very inefficient-- drag will be very high. It will also be uncomfortable for anyone in the plane as they will tend to be thrown against the "upwind" side of the fuselage.



    Note the difference between causing or allowing just enough yaw rotation to let the nose track around the horizon and "keep up with" the changing the direction of the flight path as the flight path curves due to the centripetal force generated by the banked wing, and forcing the nose to yaw to point in a different direction than the aircraft is actually travelling through the air at any given instant, as would be required if you were trying to turn without banking at all.



    A car on flat ground can turn without banking fairly efficiently but that's only because the tires usually grip the road quite well, so it only takes a very small sideways angle between the alignment of each wheel, and the instantaneous path of travel of that part of the car, to generate a strong sideways force. So you don't scrub off a lot of energy due to excess drag. Very different from dragging a fuselage sideways through the air at a large sideslip angle.



    A good source for starting to learn about the basic physics of flight is John S. Denker's "See How It Flies" website . On second thought, this website is not so much designed to introduce a complete novice to the basic principles of flight, as to help someone with some flying experience and training understand the "why" of it all on deeper lever than some pilots ever manage to reach in a whole lifetime of flying!






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$














    • $begingroup$
      Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
      $endgroup$
      – Federico
      Jul 29 at 18:09










    • $begingroup$
      Might be worth adding to your answer that the primary function of the rudder is not to steer the aircraft (as one might intuitively think) but to co-ordinate turning flight and cancel out any lateral aerodynamic forces by keeping the aircraft pointed into the relative wind. It has a secondary function to intentionally create a sideways force in a maneuver called a sideslip used to either bleed energy for landing or keep the aircraft pointed down the runway during a crosswind landing.
      $endgroup$
      – Anthony X
      Jul 29 at 20:58














    19












    19








    19





    $begingroup$

    This answer is specifically for a fixed-wing airplane, not a helicopter or multicopter, although some aspects of it will apply to them too.



    What is a turn? A turn is a curvature in the flight path. This means a turn is a form of acceleration. Specifically, a centripetal acceleration-- the flight path is being continually "bent" toward the center of the turn, creating a circular path.



    Newton's second law is force = mass * acceleration, or acceleration = force / mass. You can't have an acceleration unless you are exerting a force to cause that acceleration. You can't have a centripetal acceleration unless you are exerting a centripetal force-- a force vector pointing toward the center of the turn.



    What part of an aircraft is designed to produce force as efficiently as possible? The wing. If you roll the aircraft into a bank, you tilt the wing's lift force to one side, and you've now a created a centripetal force as efficiently as possible-- i.e. with the least drag possible.



    Instead of banking, you can also turn by yawing the fuselage sideways relative to the flight path to expose the side of the fuselage to the airflow. Essentially this makes the fuselage act as a sideways wing, generating some sideways lift or "sideforce". This method also points the thrust vector from the engine or engines sideways relative to the flight path. So this method will create some centripetal force, but it is very inefficient-- drag will be very high. It will also be uncomfortable for anyone in the plane as they will tend to be thrown against the "upwind" side of the fuselage.



    Note the difference between causing or allowing just enough yaw rotation to let the nose track around the horizon and "keep up with" the changing the direction of the flight path as the flight path curves due to the centripetal force generated by the banked wing, and forcing the nose to yaw to point in a different direction than the aircraft is actually travelling through the air at any given instant, as would be required if you were trying to turn without banking at all.



    A car on flat ground can turn without banking fairly efficiently but that's only because the tires usually grip the road quite well, so it only takes a very small sideways angle between the alignment of each wheel, and the instantaneous path of travel of that part of the car, to generate a strong sideways force. So you don't scrub off a lot of energy due to excess drag. Very different from dragging a fuselage sideways through the air at a large sideslip angle.



    A good source for starting to learn about the basic physics of flight is John S. Denker's "See How It Flies" website . On second thought, this website is not so much designed to introduce a complete novice to the basic principles of flight, as to help someone with some flying experience and training understand the "why" of it all on deeper lever than some pilots ever manage to reach in a whole lifetime of flying!






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    This answer is specifically for a fixed-wing airplane, not a helicopter or multicopter, although some aspects of it will apply to them too.



    What is a turn? A turn is a curvature in the flight path. This means a turn is a form of acceleration. Specifically, a centripetal acceleration-- the flight path is being continually "bent" toward the center of the turn, creating a circular path.



    Newton's second law is force = mass * acceleration, or acceleration = force / mass. You can't have an acceleration unless you are exerting a force to cause that acceleration. You can't have a centripetal acceleration unless you are exerting a centripetal force-- a force vector pointing toward the center of the turn.



    What part of an aircraft is designed to produce force as efficiently as possible? The wing. If you roll the aircraft into a bank, you tilt the wing's lift force to one side, and you've now a created a centripetal force as efficiently as possible-- i.e. with the least drag possible.



    Instead of banking, you can also turn by yawing the fuselage sideways relative to the flight path to expose the side of the fuselage to the airflow. Essentially this makes the fuselage act as a sideways wing, generating some sideways lift or "sideforce". This method also points the thrust vector from the engine or engines sideways relative to the flight path. So this method will create some centripetal force, but it is very inefficient-- drag will be very high. It will also be uncomfortable for anyone in the plane as they will tend to be thrown against the "upwind" side of the fuselage.



    Note the difference between causing or allowing just enough yaw rotation to let the nose track around the horizon and "keep up with" the changing the direction of the flight path as the flight path curves due to the centripetal force generated by the banked wing, and forcing the nose to yaw to point in a different direction than the aircraft is actually travelling through the air at any given instant, as would be required if you were trying to turn without banking at all.



    A car on flat ground can turn without banking fairly efficiently but that's only because the tires usually grip the road quite well, so it only takes a very small sideways angle between the alignment of each wheel, and the instantaneous path of travel of that part of the car, to generate a strong sideways force. So you don't scrub off a lot of energy due to excess drag. Very different from dragging a fuselage sideways through the air at a large sideslip angle.



    A good source for starting to learn about the basic physics of flight is John S. Denker's "See How It Flies" website . On second thought, this website is not so much designed to introduce a complete novice to the basic principles of flight, as to help someone with some flying experience and training understand the "why" of it all on deeper lever than some pilots ever manage to reach in a whole lifetime of flying!







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited Jul 29 at 16:53

























    answered Jul 27 at 21:21









    quiet flyerquiet flyer

    4,4897 silver badges44 bronze badges




    4,4897 silver badges44 bronze badges














    • $begingroup$
      Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
      $endgroup$
      – Federico
      Jul 29 at 18:09










    • $begingroup$
      Might be worth adding to your answer that the primary function of the rudder is not to steer the aircraft (as one might intuitively think) but to co-ordinate turning flight and cancel out any lateral aerodynamic forces by keeping the aircraft pointed into the relative wind. It has a secondary function to intentionally create a sideways force in a maneuver called a sideslip used to either bleed energy for landing or keep the aircraft pointed down the runway during a crosswind landing.
      $endgroup$
      – Anthony X
      Jul 29 at 20:58

















    • $begingroup$
      Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
      $endgroup$
      – Federico
      Jul 29 at 18:09










    • $begingroup$
      Might be worth adding to your answer that the primary function of the rudder is not to steer the aircraft (as one might intuitively think) but to co-ordinate turning flight and cancel out any lateral aerodynamic forces by keeping the aircraft pointed into the relative wind. It has a secondary function to intentionally create a sideways force in a maneuver called a sideslip used to either bleed energy for landing or keep the aircraft pointed down the runway during a crosswind landing.
      $endgroup$
      – Anthony X
      Jul 29 at 20:58
















    $begingroup$
    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    $endgroup$
    – Federico
    Jul 29 at 18:09




    $begingroup$
    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    $endgroup$
    – Federico
    Jul 29 at 18:09












    $begingroup$
    Might be worth adding to your answer that the primary function of the rudder is not to steer the aircraft (as one might intuitively think) but to co-ordinate turning flight and cancel out any lateral aerodynamic forces by keeping the aircraft pointed into the relative wind. It has a secondary function to intentionally create a sideways force in a maneuver called a sideslip used to either bleed energy for landing or keep the aircraft pointed down the runway during a crosswind landing.
    $endgroup$
    – Anthony X
    Jul 29 at 20:58





    $begingroup$
    Might be worth adding to your answer that the primary function of the rudder is not to steer the aircraft (as one might intuitively think) but to co-ordinate turning flight and cancel out any lateral aerodynamic forces by keeping the aircraft pointed into the relative wind. It has a secondary function to intentionally create a sideways force in a maneuver called a sideslip used to either bleed energy for landing or keep the aircraft pointed down the runway during a crosswind landing.
    $endgroup$
    – Anthony X
    Jul 29 at 20:58














    9












    $begingroup$

    Think about the airplane as a body you want to control. That object has 6 degrees of freedom, including rolling. If you remove rolling you will not be able to control airplane's roll. Imagine a situation, when an small mass is over the wing and the airplane starts to roll and you are not able to compensate it.



    Saying that, the way to control yaw is to use the vertical plane, and, the vertical plane will generate roll that you will need to compensate. So yaw and roll are coupled.



    On the other side, the preferred way to perform a turn in the air is using roll, not using yaw. It is more efficient and faster (in space) than using yaw






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$














    • $begingroup$
      Roll can be controlled indirectly by wing dihedral. The Fokker "Spin" only had elevator/rudder for control, and could successfully fly around the Haarlem cathedral in 1911.
      $endgroup$
      – Koyovis
      Jul 28 at 4:14










    • $begingroup$
      Even if it's perfectly balanced it'd be hard to maintain a heading, and impossible to change it and remain level. There's some suggested reading... I'd suggest KSP, because roll control failure is precisely the reason I didn't get to space today in my SSTO (and because KSP is the only reason I understand any of this).
      $endgroup$
      – Mazura
      Jul 28 at 19:38










    • $begingroup$
      @Mazura Likewise radio-controlled sailplanes like Gentle Lady, Radian do well with no ailerons but that's because ample dihedral gives lots of slip- roll coupling for good roll control based on rudder inputs. No problem doing steep turns, sustained inverted flight including some turning maneuvers, and even full 360-degree rolls (at least w/ Radian with motor on for extra airflow over tail). "Super Floater" ultralight sailplane (original version) is a full-sized counterpart; later version had flatter wing and ailerons.
      $endgroup$
      – quiet flyer
      Jul 28 at 21:34
















    9












    $begingroup$

    Think about the airplane as a body you want to control. That object has 6 degrees of freedom, including rolling. If you remove rolling you will not be able to control airplane's roll. Imagine a situation, when an small mass is over the wing and the airplane starts to roll and you are not able to compensate it.



    Saying that, the way to control yaw is to use the vertical plane, and, the vertical plane will generate roll that you will need to compensate. So yaw and roll are coupled.



    On the other side, the preferred way to perform a turn in the air is using roll, not using yaw. It is more efficient and faster (in space) than using yaw






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$














    • $begingroup$
      Roll can be controlled indirectly by wing dihedral. The Fokker "Spin" only had elevator/rudder for control, and could successfully fly around the Haarlem cathedral in 1911.
      $endgroup$
      – Koyovis
      Jul 28 at 4:14










    • $begingroup$
      Even if it's perfectly balanced it'd be hard to maintain a heading, and impossible to change it and remain level. There's some suggested reading... I'd suggest KSP, because roll control failure is precisely the reason I didn't get to space today in my SSTO (and because KSP is the only reason I understand any of this).
      $endgroup$
      – Mazura
      Jul 28 at 19:38










    • $begingroup$
      @Mazura Likewise radio-controlled sailplanes like Gentle Lady, Radian do well with no ailerons but that's because ample dihedral gives lots of slip- roll coupling for good roll control based on rudder inputs. No problem doing steep turns, sustained inverted flight including some turning maneuvers, and even full 360-degree rolls (at least w/ Radian with motor on for extra airflow over tail). "Super Floater" ultralight sailplane (original version) is a full-sized counterpart; later version had flatter wing and ailerons.
      $endgroup$
      – quiet flyer
      Jul 28 at 21:34














    9












    9








    9





    $begingroup$

    Think about the airplane as a body you want to control. That object has 6 degrees of freedom, including rolling. If you remove rolling you will not be able to control airplane's roll. Imagine a situation, when an small mass is over the wing and the airplane starts to roll and you are not able to compensate it.



    Saying that, the way to control yaw is to use the vertical plane, and, the vertical plane will generate roll that you will need to compensate. So yaw and roll are coupled.



    On the other side, the preferred way to perform a turn in the air is using roll, not using yaw. It is more efficient and faster (in space) than using yaw






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



    Think about the airplane as a body you want to control. That object has 6 degrees of freedom, including rolling. If you remove rolling you will not be able to control airplane's roll. Imagine a situation, when an small mass is over the wing and the airplane starts to roll and you are not able to compensate it.



    Saying that, the way to control yaw is to use the vertical plane, and, the vertical plane will generate roll that you will need to compensate. So yaw and roll are coupled.



    On the other side, the preferred way to perform a turn in the air is using roll, not using yaw. It is more efficient and faster (in space) than using yaw







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered Jul 27 at 20:14









    Trebia Project.Trebia Project.

    3,0671 gold badge14 silver badges36 bronze badges




    3,0671 gold badge14 silver badges36 bronze badges














    • $begingroup$
      Roll can be controlled indirectly by wing dihedral. The Fokker "Spin" only had elevator/rudder for control, and could successfully fly around the Haarlem cathedral in 1911.
      $endgroup$
      – Koyovis
      Jul 28 at 4:14










    • $begingroup$
      Even if it's perfectly balanced it'd be hard to maintain a heading, and impossible to change it and remain level. There's some suggested reading... I'd suggest KSP, because roll control failure is precisely the reason I didn't get to space today in my SSTO (and because KSP is the only reason I understand any of this).
      $endgroup$
      – Mazura
      Jul 28 at 19:38










    • $begingroup$
      @Mazura Likewise radio-controlled sailplanes like Gentle Lady, Radian do well with no ailerons but that's because ample dihedral gives lots of slip- roll coupling for good roll control based on rudder inputs. No problem doing steep turns, sustained inverted flight including some turning maneuvers, and even full 360-degree rolls (at least w/ Radian with motor on for extra airflow over tail). "Super Floater" ultralight sailplane (original version) is a full-sized counterpart; later version had flatter wing and ailerons.
      $endgroup$
      – quiet flyer
      Jul 28 at 21:34

















    • $begingroup$
      Roll can be controlled indirectly by wing dihedral. The Fokker "Spin" only had elevator/rudder for control, and could successfully fly around the Haarlem cathedral in 1911.
      $endgroup$
      – Koyovis
      Jul 28 at 4:14










    • $begingroup$
      Even if it's perfectly balanced it'd be hard to maintain a heading, and impossible to change it and remain level. There's some suggested reading... I'd suggest KSP, because roll control failure is precisely the reason I didn't get to space today in my SSTO (and because KSP is the only reason I understand any of this).
      $endgroup$
      – Mazura
      Jul 28 at 19:38










    • $begingroup$
      @Mazura Likewise radio-controlled sailplanes like Gentle Lady, Radian do well with no ailerons but that's because ample dihedral gives lots of slip- roll coupling for good roll control based on rudder inputs. No problem doing steep turns, sustained inverted flight including some turning maneuvers, and even full 360-degree rolls (at least w/ Radian with motor on for extra airflow over tail). "Super Floater" ultralight sailplane (original version) is a full-sized counterpart; later version had flatter wing and ailerons.
      $endgroup$
      – quiet flyer
      Jul 28 at 21:34
















    $begingroup$
    Roll can be controlled indirectly by wing dihedral. The Fokker "Spin" only had elevator/rudder for control, and could successfully fly around the Haarlem cathedral in 1911.
    $endgroup$
    – Koyovis
    Jul 28 at 4:14




    $begingroup$
    Roll can be controlled indirectly by wing dihedral. The Fokker "Spin" only had elevator/rudder for control, and could successfully fly around the Haarlem cathedral in 1911.
    $endgroup$
    – Koyovis
    Jul 28 at 4:14












    $begingroup$
    Even if it's perfectly balanced it'd be hard to maintain a heading, and impossible to change it and remain level. There's some suggested reading... I'd suggest KSP, because roll control failure is precisely the reason I didn't get to space today in my SSTO (and because KSP is the only reason I understand any of this).
    $endgroup$
    – Mazura
    Jul 28 at 19:38




    $begingroup$
    Even if it's perfectly balanced it'd be hard to maintain a heading, and impossible to change it and remain level. There's some suggested reading... I'd suggest KSP, because roll control failure is precisely the reason I didn't get to space today in my SSTO (and because KSP is the only reason I understand any of this).
    $endgroup$
    – Mazura
    Jul 28 at 19:38












    $begingroup$
    @Mazura Likewise radio-controlled sailplanes like Gentle Lady, Radian do well with no ailerons but that's because ample dihedral gives lots of slip- roll coupling for good roll control based on rudder inputs. No problem doing steep turns, sustained inverted flight including some turning maneuvers, and even full 360-degree rolls (at least w/ Radian with motor on for extra airflow over tail). "Super Floater" ultralight sailplane (original version) is a full-sized counterpart; later version had flatter wing and ailerons.
    $endgroup$
    – quiet flyer
    Jul 28 at 21:34





    $begingroup$
    @Mazura Likewise radio-controlled sailplanes like Gentle Lady, Radian do well with no ailerons but that's because ample dihedral gives lots of slip- roll coupling for good roll control based on rudder inputs. No problem doing steep turns, sustained inverted flight including some turning maneuvers, and even full 360-degree rolls (at least w/ Radian with motor on for extra airflow over tail). "Super Floater" ultralight sailplane (original version) is a full-sized counterpart; later version had flatter wing and ailerons.
    $endgroup$
    – quiet flyer
    Jul 28 at 21:34












    9












    $begingroup$

    In addition to the use in turning, you need to realize that the atmosphere is not static. It's in constant motion, both horizontally and vertically. The vertical currents can be strong enough, and localized enough, to tilt one wing or the other*, thus causing an involuntary roll. If you don't have some means to counteract this induced roll, you now have a plane that is highly unstable and likely to crash.



    *Flying a sailplane or small power plane on a day with lots of thermal activity is a constant balancing act, using small control motions to keep the wings level (or at the bank angle you want) despite what the atmosphere wants to do to you. And let's not even get into the sort of vertical currents you can get from storms...






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$










    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Forget while at altitude. During one training flight, while doing touch-and-gos, I had an upset early during climbout which resulted in one wing dipping considerably. I don't dare guess by how much, but it caused a significant bank, and we were at a few hundred feet or so AGL. Let's just say I was happy to have the ailerons then!
      $endgroup$
      – a CVn
      Jul 28 at 8:30















    9












    $begingroup$

    In addition to the use in turning, you need to realize that the atmosphere is not static. It's in constant motion, both horizontally and vertically. The vertical currents can be strong enough, and localized enough, to tilt one wing or the other*, thus causing an involuntary roll. If you don't have some means to counteract this induced roll, you now have a plane that is highly unstable and likely to crash.



    *Flying a sailplane or small power plane on a day with lots of thermal activity is a constant balancing act, using small control motions to keep the wings level (or at the bank angle you want) despite what the atmosphere wants to do to you. And let's not even get into the sort of vertical currents you can get from storms...






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$










    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Forget while at altitude. During one training flight, while doing touch-and-gos, I had an upset early during climbout which resulted in one wing dipping considerably. I don't dare guess by how much, but it caused a significant bank, and we were at a few hundred feet or so AGL. Let's just say I was happy to have the ailerons then!
      $endgroup$
      – a CVn
      Jul 28 at 8:30













    9












    9








    9





    $begingroup$

    In addition to the use in turning, you need to realize that the atmosphere is not static. It's in constant motion, both horizontally and vertically. The vertical currents can be strong enough, and localized enough, to tilt one wing or the other*, thus causing an involuntary roll. If you don't have some means to counteract this induced roll, you now have a plane that is highly unstable and likely to crash.



    *Flying a sailplane or small power plane on a day with lots of thermal activity is a constant balancing act, using small control motions to keep the wings level (or at the bank angle you want) despite what the atmosphere wants to do to you. And let's not even get into the sort of vertical currents you can get from storms...






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



    In addition to the use in turning, you need to realize that the atmosphere is not static. It's in constant motion, both horizontally and vertically. The vertical currents can be strong enough, and localized enough, to tilt one wing or the other*, thus causing an involuntary roll. If you don't have some means to counteract this induced roll, you now have a plane that is highly unstable and likely to crash.



    *Flying a sailplane or small power plane on a day with lots of thermal activity is a constant balancing act, using small control motions to keep the wings level (or at the bank angle you want) despite what the atmosphere wants to do to you. And let's not even get into the sort of vertical currents you can get from storms...







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered Jul 28 at 5:26









    jamesqfjamesqf

    1,0621 gold badge9 silver badges7 bronze badges




    1,0621 gold badge9 silver badges7 bronze badges










    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Forget while at altitude. During one training flight, while doing touch-and-gos, I had an upset early during climbout which resulted in one wing dipping considerably. I don't dare guess by how much, but it caused a significant bank, and we were at a few hundred feet or so AGL. Let's just say I was happy to have the ailerons then!
      $endgroup$
      – a CVn
      Jul 28 at 8:30












    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Forget while at altitude. During one training flight, while doing touch-and-gos, I had an upset early during climbout which resulted in one wing dipping considerably. I don't dare guess by how much, but it caused a significant bank, and we were at a few hundred feet or so AGL. Let's just say I was happy to have the ailerons then!
      $endgroup$
      – a CVn
      Jul 28 at 8:30







    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    Forget while at altitude. During one training flight, while doing touch-and-gos, I had an upset early during climbout which resulted in one wing dipping considerably. I don't dare guess by how much, but it caused a significant bank, and we were at a few hundred feet or so AGL. Let's just say I was happy to have the ailerons then!
    $endgroup$
    – a CVn
    Jul 28 at 8:30




    $begingroup$
    Forget while at altitude. During one training flight, while doing touch-and-gos, I had an upset early during climbout which resulted in one wing dipping considerably. I don't dare guess by how much, but it caused a significant bank, and we were at a few hundred feet or so AGL. Let's just say I was happy to have the ailerons then!
    $endgroup$
    – a CVn
    Jul 28 at 8:30











    4












    $begingroup$

    Here's simple way to conceive it. An airplane turns by tilting the lift force from straight up to angled off to one side, and to do this, it has to bank.



    Imagine the SpaceX rocket hovering. If it wants to move sideways, it tilts its thrust line off vertical. With the thrust line now pointed at, say, 11 O'clock instead of 12, some of the thrust is now creating a lateral force and the rocket moves sideways. To keep from descending while moving sideways, the total thrust has to be increased to compensate for the portion of thrust now working to move the body sideways. But in any case, it's the tilting of the thrust line that makes it move sideways.



    The airplane's wings are making thrust (by redirecting a large package of air above and below downward) as it moves along. If you tilt the wings, it's like the rocket tilting. The thrust being created by the wings is tilted by the amount of the bank angle, and part of the wings' thrust or lift is now creating a lateral force, making the airplane move sideways.



    But the airplane isn't hovering, it's moving forward while this is going on. Because it's moving forward, the sideways movement created by banking the wings results in it moving in a horizontal arc. That's a turn. Like the earlier rocket analogy, to keep from descending the airplane has to increase its total lift thrust to compensate for the thrust lost by using it to move laterally. So you have to pitch up a bit to make more total thrust (lift) from the wings as you turn or you'll descend.



    Helicopters are the same. If it's hovering stationary, and you want it to move sideways, you tilt the rotor disc to angle the thrust line of the rotor. If the helicopter is flying forward while this is being done, it moves sideways and forward at the same time, creating a horizontal arc, or a turn, just like the airplane.



    Turning by skidding is possible also, but is also very inefficient. Hovercraft, which are really just ground effect airplane/helicopters, turn this way because they have no choice; they simply can't bank when they need to stay so close to the surface just to stay clear of it. A hovercraft takes forever to turn because it has to skid sideways and use the lateral force of it's engine thrust to make the change in direction and this really limits their maneuverability.



    However, if you drive your hovercraft on a bicycle race track with banked corners, at the right speed appropriate to the bank angle, you just have to keep driving it "straight", that is, just keeping the tail end lined up with the nose end, and the hovercraft is changing direction without having to skid. In an airplane, you bank the lifting force instead of the supporting surface and just work on keeping the tail lined up behind the nose (ball centered), and around you go. Not a perfect analogy by any means but sufficient to be able to visualize the forces at work.



    There ARE times in flying where you use skidding to make changes in direction - mainly formation flying, which includes glider towing. When close to another airplane, it's not a good idea to move closer by banking toward the airplane you're formating on. You maneuver by skidding, taking advantage of the inefficiency of skidding maneuvers you might say, to able to make subtle position changes will less risk of running into your formation object. Glider pilots also learn to adjust lateral position by skids and minimal amounts of bank where needed.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$










    • 1




      $begingroup$
      A fixed wing aeroplane can also turn by deflecting the rudder. Helicopters as well. So why do they require roll for turning, would still be the question.
      $endgroup$
      – Koyovis
      Jul 28 at 4:19






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      An airplane's wings do not generate thrust. Wings generate lift, but lift is not thrust (in typical nomenclature). Spacecraft are hugely different from aircraft in that they typically operate in an environment where there is very little to nothing to push off against, and therefore they have to rely on thrust. (Compare spaceplane designs like the space shuttle orbiter.) I usually like your answers, but conflating lift and thrust doesn't seem likely to help someone who is struggling to understand why airplanes use roll, even though there are cases where they can be oriented along the same axis.
      $endgroup$
      – a CVn
      Jul 28 at 8:26






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Koyovis: Because banking is a much more efficient & controllable way of turning. You might ask yourself why curves on highways (well-designed ones, anyway) are banked, or why motorcycles & bicycles "bank" when turning.
      $endgroup$
      – jamesqf
      Jul 28 at 17:10











    • $begingroup$
      @aCVn yes it's thrust. It's action/reaction of air being displaced. A propeller makes "thrust", from a column of air accelerated aft. It's just a wing going round and round, inducing air to move.
      $endgroup$
      – John K
      Jul 28 at 18:17










    • $begingroup$
      Recommending maneuvering in close formation by skidding alone is not a good general recommendation. All 3 axes are in play at all times, you just need to use small smooth corrections, but rolling is certainly an option.
      $endgroup$
      – Michael Hall
      Jul 28 at 19:24















    4












    $begingroup$

    Here's simple way to conceive it. An airplane turns by tilting the lift force from straight up to angled off to one side, and to do this, it has to bank.



    Imagine the SpaceX rocket hovering. If it wants to move sideways, it tilts its thrust line off vertical. With the thrust line now pointed at, say, 11 O'clock instead of 12, some of the thrust is now creating a lateral force and the rocket moves sideways. To keep from descending while moving sideways, the total thrust has to be increased to compensate for the portion of thrust now working to move the body sideways. But in any case, it's the tilting of the thrust line that makes it move sideways.



    The airplane's wings are making thrust (by redirecting a large package of air above and below downward) as it moves along. If you tilt the wings, it's like the rocket tilting. The thrust being created by the wings is tilted by the amount of the bank angle, and part of the wings' thrust or lift is now creating a lateral force, making the airplane move sideways.



    But the airplane isn't hovering, it's moving forward while this is going on. Because it's moving forward, the sideways movement created by banking the wings results in it moving in a horizontal arc. That's a turn. Like the earlier rocket analogy, to keep from descending the airplane has to increase its total lift thrust to compensate for the thrust lost by using it to move laterally. So you have to pitch up a bit to make more total thrust (lift) from the wings as you turn or you'll descend.



    Helicopters are the same. If it's hovering stationary, and you want it to move sideways, you tilt the rotor disc to angle the thrust line of the rotor. If the helicopter is flying forward while this is being done, it moves sideways and forward at the same time, creating a horizontal arc, or a turn, just like the airplane.



    Turning by skidding is possible also, but is also very inefficient. Hovercraft, which are really just ground effect airplane/helicopters, turn this way because they have no choice; they simply can't bank when they need to stay so close to the surface just to stay clear of it. A hovercraft takes forever to turn because it has to skid sideways and use the lateral force of it's engine thrust to make the change in direction and this really limits their maneuverability.



    However, if you drive your hovercraft on a bicycle race track with banked corners, at the right speed appropriate to the bank angle, you just have to keep driving it "straight", that is, just keeping the tail end lined up with the nose end, and the hovercraft is changing direction without having to skid. In an airplane, you bank the lifting force instead of the supporting surface and just work on keeping the tail lined up behind the nose (ball centered), and around you go. Not a perfect analogy by any means but sufficient to be able to visualize the forces at work.



    There ARE times in flying where you use skidding to make changes in direction - mainly formation flying, which includes glider towing. When close to another airplane, it's not a good idea to move closer by banking toward the airplane you're formating on. You maneuver by skidding, taking advantage of the inefficiency of skidding maneuvers you might say, to able to make subtle position changes will less risk of running into your formation object. Glider pilots also learn to adjust lateral position by skids and minimal amounts of bank where needed.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$










    • 1




      $begingroup$
      A fixed wing aeroplane can also turn by deflecting the rudder. Helicopters as well. So why do they require roll for turning, would still be the question.
      $endgroup$
      – Koyovis
      Jul 28 at 4:19






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      An airplane's wings do not generate thrust. Wings generate lift, but lift is not thrust (in typical nomenclature). Spacecraft are hugely different from aircraft in that they typically operate in an environment where there is very little to nothing to push off against, and therefore they have to rely on thrust. (Compare spaceplane designs like the space shuttle orbiter.) I usually like your answers, but conflating lift and thrust doesn't seem likely to help someone who is struggling to understand why airplanes use roll, even though there are cases where they can be oriented along the same axis.
      $endgroup$
      – a CVn
      Jul 28 at 8:26






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Koyovis: Because banking is a much more efficient & controllable way of turning. You might ask yourself why curves on highways (well-designed ones, anyway) are banked, or why motorcycles & bicycles "bank" when turning.
      $endgroup$
      – jamesqf
      Jul 28 at 17:10











    • $begingroup$
      @aCVn yes it's thrust. It's action/reaction of air being displaced. A propeller makes "thrust", from a column of air accelerated aft. It's just a wing going round and round, inducing air to move.
      $endgroup$
      – John K
      Jul 28 at 18:17










    • $begingroup$
      Recommending maneuvering in close formation by skidding alone is not a good general recommendation. All 3 axes are in play at all times, you just need to use small smooth corrections, but rolling is certainly an option.
      $endgroup$
      – Michael Hall
      Jul 28 at 19:24













    4












    4








    4





    $begingroup$

    Here's simple way to conceive it. An airplane turns by tilting the lift force from straight up to angled off to one side, and to do this, it has to bank.



    Imagine the SpaceX rocket hovering. If it wants to move sideways, it tilts its thrust line off vertical. With the thrust line now pointed at, say, 11 O'clock instead of 12, some of the thrust is now creating a lateral force and the rocket moves sideways. To keep from descending while moving sideways, the total thrust has to be increased to compensate for the portion of thrust now working to move the body sideways. But in any case, it's the tilting of the thrust line that makes it move sideways.



    The airplane's wings are making thrust (by redirecting a large package of air above and below downward) as it moves along. If you tilt the wings, it's like the rocket tilting. The thrust being created by the wings is tilted by the amount of the bank angle, and part of the wings' thrust or lift is now creating a lateral force, making the airplane move sideways.



    But the airplane isn't hovering, it's moving forward while this is going on. Because it's moving forward, the sideways movement created by banking the wings results in it moving in a horizontal arc. That's a turn. Like the earlier rocket analogy, to keep from descending the airplane has to increase its total lift thrust to compensate for the thrust lost by using it to move laterally. So you have to pitch up a bit to make more total thrust (lift) from the wings as you turn or you'll descend.



    Helicopters are the same. If it's hovering stationary, and you want it to move sideways, you tilt the rotor disc to angle the thrust line of the rotor. If the helicopter is flying forward while this is being done, it moves sideways and forward at the same time, creating a horizontal arc, or a turn, just like the airplane.



    Turning by skidding is possible also, but is also very inefficient. Hovercraft, which are really just ground effect airplane/helicopters, turn this way because they have no choice; they simply can't bank when they need to stay so close to the surface just to stay clear of it. A hovercraft takes forever to turn because it has to skid sideways and use the lateral force of it's engine thrust to make the change in direction and this really limits their maneuverability.



    However, if you drive your hovercraft on a bicycle race track with banked corners, at the right speed appropriate to the bank angle, you just have to keep driving it "straight", that is, just keeping the tail end lined up with the nose end, and the hovercraft is changing direction without having to skid. In an airplane, you bank the lifting force instead of the supporting surface and just work on keeping the tail lined up behind the nose (ball centered), and around you go. Not a perfect analogy by any means but sufficient to be able to visualize the forces at work.



    There ARE times in flying where you use skidding to make changes in direction - mainly formation flying, which includes glider towing. When close to another airplane, it's not a good idea to move closer by banking toward the airplane you're formating on. You maneuver by skidding, taking advantage of the inefficiency of skidding maneuvers you might say, to able to make subtle position changes will less risk of running into your formation object. Glider pilots also learn to adjust lateral position by skids and minimal amounts of bank where needed.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    Here's simple way to conceive it. An airplane turns by tilting the lift force from straight up to angled off to one side, and to do this, it has to bank.



    Imagine the SpaceX rocket hovering. If it wants to move sideways, it tilts its thrust line off vertical. With the thrust line now pointed at, say, 11 O'clock instead of 12, some of the thrust is now creating a lateral force and the rocket moves sideways. To keep from descending while moving sideways, the total thrust has to be increased to compensate for the portion of thrust now working to move the body sideways. But in any case, it's the tilting of the thrust line that makes it move sideways.



    The airplane's wings are making thrust (by redirecting a large package of air above and below downward) as it moves along. If you tilt the wings, it's like the rocket tilting. The thrust being created by the wings is tilted by the amount of the bank angle, and part of the wings' thrust or lift is now creating a lateral force, making the airplane move sideways.



    But the airplane isn't hovering, it's moving forward while this is going on. Because it's moving forward, the sideways movement created by banking the wings results in it moving in a horizontal arc. That's a turn. Like the earlier rocket analogy, to keep from descending the airplane has to increase its total lift thrust to compensate for the thrust lost by using it to move laterally. So you have to pitch up a bit to make more total thrust (lift) from the wings as you turn or you'll descend.



    Helicopters are the same. If it's hovering stationary, and you want it to move sideways, you tilt the rotor disc to angle the thrust line of the rotor. If the helicopter is flying forward while this is being done, it moves sideways and forward at the same time, creating a horizontal arc, or a turn, just like the airplane.



    Turning by skidding is possible also, but is also very inefficient. Hovercraft, which are really just ground effect airplane/helicopters, turn this way because they have no choice; they simply can't bank when they need to stay so close to the surface just to stay clear of it. A hovercraft takes forever to turn because it has to skid sideways and use the lateral force of it's engine thrust to make the change in direction and this really limits their maneuverability.



    However, if you drive your hovercraft on a bicycle race track with banked corners, at the right speed appropriate to the bank angle, you just have to keep driving it "straight", that is, just keeping the tail end lined up with the nose end, and the hovercraft is changing direction without having to skid. In an airplane, you bank the lifting force instead of the supporting surface and just work on keeping the tail lined up behind the nose (ball centered), and around you go. Not a perfect analogy by any means but sufficient to be able to visualize the forces at work.



    There ARE times in flying where you use skidding to make changes in direction - mainly formation flying, which includes glider towing. When close to another airplane, it's not a good idea to move closer by banking toward the airplane you're formating on. You maneuver by skidding, taking advantage of the inefficiency of skidding maneuvers you might say, to able to make subtle position changes will less risk of running into your formation object. Glider pilots also learn to adjust lateral position by skids and minimal amounts of bank where needed.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited Jul 28 at 18:15

























    answered Jul 27 at 23:01









    John KJohn K

    36.8k1 gold badge64 silver badges121 bronze badges




    36.8k1 gold badge64 silver badges121 bronze badges










    • 1




      $begingroup$
      A fixed wing aeroplane can also turn by deflecting the rudder. Helicopters as well. So why do they require roll for turning, would still be the question.
      $endgroup$
      – Koyovis
      Jul 28 at 4:19






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      An airplane's wings do not generate thrust. Wings generate lift, but lift is not thrust (in typical nomenclature). Spacecraft are hugely different from aircraft in that they typically operate in an environment where there is very little to nothing to push off against, and therefore they have to rely on thrust. (Compare spaceplane designs like the space shuttle orbiter.) I usually like your answers, but conflating lift and thrust doesn't seem likely to help someone who is struggling to understand why airplanes use roll, even though there are cases where they can be oriented along the same axis.
      $endgroup$
      – a CVn
      Jul 28 at 8:26






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Koyovis: Because banking is a much more efficient & controllable way of turning. You might ask yourself why curves on highways (well-designed ones, anyway) are banked, or why motorcycles & bicycles "bank" when turning.
      $endgroup$
      – jamesqf
      Jul 28 at 17:10











    • $begingroup$
      @aCVn yes it's thrust. It's action/reaction of air being displaced. A propeller makes "thrust", from a column of air accelerated aft. It's just a wing going round and round, inducing air to move.
      $endgroup$
      – John K
      Jul 28 at 18:17










    • $begingroup$
      Recommending maneuvering in close formation by skidding alone is not a good general recommendation. All 3 axes are in play at all times, you just need to use small smooth corrections, but rolling is certainly an option.
      $endgroup$
      – Michael Hall
      Jul 28 at 19:24












    • 1




      $begingroup$
      A fixed wing aeroplane can also turn by deflecting the rudder. Helicopters as well. So why do they require roll for turning, would still be the question.
      $endgroup$
      – Koyovis
      Jul 28 at 4:19






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      An airplane's wings do not generate thrust. Wings generate lift, but lift is not thrust (in typical nomenclature). Spacecraft are hugely different from aircraft in that they typically operate in an environment where there is very little to nothing to push off against, and therefore they have to rely on thrust. (Compare spaceplane designs like the space shuttle orbiter.) I usually like your answers, but conflating lift and thrust doesn't seem likely to help someone who is struggling to understand why airplanes use roll, even though there are cases where they can be oriented along the same axis.
      $endgroup$
      – a CVn
      Jul 28 at 8:26






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @Koyovis: Because banking is a much more efficient & controllable way of turning. You might ask yourself why curves on highways (well-designed ones, anyway) are banked, or why motorcycles & bicycles "bank" when turning.
      $endgroup$
      – jamesqf
      Jul 28 at 17:10











    • $begingroup$
      @aCVn yes it's thrust. It's action/reaction of air being displaced. A propeller makes "thrust", from a column of air accelerated aft. It's just a wing going round and round, inducing air to move.
      $endgroup$
      – John K
      Jul 28 at 18:17










    • $begingroup$
      Recommending maneuvering in close formation by skidding alone is not a good general recommendation. All 3 axes are in play at all times, you just need to use small smooth corrections, but rolling is certainly an option.
      $endgroup$
      – Michael Hall
      Jul 28 at 19:24







    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    A fixed wing aeroplane can also turn by deflecting the rudder. Helicopters as well. So why do they require roll for turning, would still be the question.
    $endgroup$
    – Koyovis
    Jul 28 at 4:19




    $begingroup$
    A fixed wing aeroplane can also turn by deflecting the rudder. Helicopters as well. So why do they require roll for turning, would still be the question.
    $endgroup$
    – Koyovis
    Jul 28 at 4:19




    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    An airplane's wings do not generate thrust. Wings generate lift, but lift is not thrust (in typical nomenclature). Spacecraft are hugely different from aircraft in that they typically operate in an environment where there is very little to nothing to push off against, and therefore they have to rely on thrust. (Compare spaceplane designs like the space shuttle orbiter.) I usually like your answers, but conflating lift and thrust doesn't seem likely to help someone who is struggling to understand why airplanes use roll, even though there are cases where they can be oriented along the same axis.
    $endgroup$
    – a CVn
    Jul 28 at 8:26




    $begingroup$
    An airplane's wings do not generate thrust. Wings generate lift, but lift is not thrust (in typical nomenclature). Spacecraft are hugely different from aircraft in that they typically operate in an environment where there is very little to nothing to push off against, and therefore they have to rely on thrust. (Compare spaceplane designs like the space shuttle orbiter.) I usually like your answers, but conflating lift and thrust doesn't seem likely to help someone who is struggling to understand why airplanes use roll, even though there are cases where they can be oriented along the same axis.
    $endgroup$
    – a CVn
    Jul 28 at 8:26




    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    @Koyovis: Because banking is a much more efficient & controllable way of turning. You might ask yourself why curves on highways (well-designed ones, anyway) are banked, or why motorcycles & bicycles "bank" when turning.
    $endgroup$
    – jamesqf
    Jul 28 at 17:10





    $begingroup$
    @Koyovis: Because banking is a much more efficient & controllable way of turning. You might ask yourself why curves on highways (well-designed ones, anyway) are banked, or why motorcycles & bicycles "bank" when turning.
    $endgroup$
    – jamesqf
    Jul 28 at 17:10













    $begingroup$
    @aCVn yes it's thrust. It's action/reaction of air being displaced. A propeller makes "thrust", from a column of air accelerated aft. It's just a wing going round and round, inducing air to move.
    $endgroup$
    – John K
    Jul 28 at 18:17




    $begingroup$
    @aCVn yes it's thrust. It's action/reaction of air being displaced. A propeller makes "thrust", from a column of air accelerated aft. It's just a wing going round and round, inducing air to move.
    $endgroup$
    – John K
    Jul 28 at 18:17












    $begingroup$
    Recommending maneuvering in close formation by skidding alone is not a good general recommendation. All 3 axes are in play at all times, you just need to use small smooth corrections, but rolling is certainly an option.
    $endgroup$
    – Michael Hall
    Jul 28 at 19:24




    $begingroup$
    Recommending maneuvering in close formation by skidding alone is not a good general recommendation. All 3 axes are in play at all times, you just need to use small smooth corrections, but rolling is certainly an option.
    $endgroup$
    – Michael Hall
    Jul 28 at 19:24











    3












    $begingroup$

    Pitching up/down and yawing left/right would be adequate for a high wing dihedral design, were it not for the need for cross wind control. A high wing dihedral will make beautiful banked turns simply by pushing the rudder. The dihedral banks the plane away from the rudder induced slip. Great for indoors models.



    Unfortunately, in a full scale outdoors (pilot in the plane) cross wind landing situation, this design would be very difficult to control without ailerons to bank the plane into the wind (in order to prevent lateral drift), while the rudder maintains ground heading.



    Without ailerons, this type of plane would be easily rolled and blown sideways out of control, unless it was landed directly into the wind.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$



















      3












      $begingroup$

      Pitching up/down and yawing left/right would be adequate for a high wing dihedral design, were it not for the need for cross wind control. A high wing dihedral will make beautiful banked turns simply by pushing the rudder. The dihedral banks the plane away from the rudder induced slip. Great for indoors models.



      Unfortunately, in a full scale outdoors (pilot in the plane) cross wind landing situation, this design would be very difficult to control without ailerons to bank the plane into the wind (in order to prevent lateral drift), while the rudder maintains ground heading.



      Without ailerons, this type of plane would be easily rolled and blown sideways out of control, unless it was landed directly into the wind.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$

















        3












        3








        3





        $begingroup$

        Pitching up/down and yawing left/right would be adequate for a high wing dihedral design, were it not for the need for cross wind control. A high wing dihedral will make beautiful banked turns simply by pushing the rudder. The dihedral banks the plane away from the rudder induced slip. Great for indoors models.



        Unfortunately, in a full scale outdoors (pilot in the plane) cross wind landing situation, this design would be very difficult to control without ailerons to bank the plane into the wind (in order to prevent lateral drift), while the rudder maintains ground heading.



        Without ailerons, this type of plane would be easily rolled and blown sideways out of control, unless it was landed directly into the wind.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$



        Pitching up/down and yawing left/right would be adequate for a high wing dihedral design, were it not for the need for cross wind control. A high wing dihedral will make beautiful banked turns simply by pushing the rudder. The dihedral banks the plane away from the rudder induced slip. Great for indoors models.



        Unfortunately, in a full scale outdoors (pilot in the plane) cross wind landing situation, this design would be very difficult to control without ailerons to bank the plane into the wind (in order to prevent lateral drift), while the rudder maintains ground heading.



        Without ailerons, this type of plane would be easily rolled and blown sideways out of control, unless it was landed directly into the wind.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered Jul 28 at 3:16









        Robert DiGiovanniRobert DiGiovanni

        4,5501 gold badge4 silver badges22 bronze badges




        4,5501 gold badge4 silver badges22 bronze badges
























            1












            $begingroup$

            If a plane is moving e.g. north and one wants it to be moving northeast, one must apply an eastward force to the airplane. A plane has four kinds of forces acting upon it--thrust, drag (force parallel to motion), "lift" (force perpendicular to motion), and gravity. The direction of gravity can't be changed, and drag will be parallel to the direction the plane is moving, rather than the direction one wants it to go. Thus, the only two forces that can be used to change the direction the plane is moving (as opposed to pointing) are thrust and lift.



            If one didn't turn very fast, one could change an airplane's direction of motion while keeping the wings "level" side-to-side, but one's ability to do this in most planes would be very limited because thrust is small relative to lift, and wings are designed to produce lift from relative air motion in a fore-to-aft direction, rather than sideways. Consequently, it wouldn't be possible to change the direction of thrust very much relative to the direction of motion without rendering the wings ineffective. Banking makes it possible to change a plane's direction much more effectively because rather than using a tiny portion of the relatively small thrust force for that purpose, it uses a much greater portion of a much larger lift force.



            As mentioned by Quiet Flier, the side profile of the fuselage may act something like a wing with regard to air which is moving past the plane at a sideways angle, and thus provide some sideways acceleration, but since most planes' bodies aren't designed to be used in this fashion, they will be far more effective at producing force perpendicular to air movement than would be wings which are actually designed for that purpose.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$














            • $begingroup$
              This answer could be expanded to mention aerodynamic sideforcec which is sideways lift generated by the fuselage acting as a sideways wing. Even gliders with ample fuselage side area can do wings-level skidding turns, though it is horribly inefficient, and the turn rate is low, and the maneuver invites a spin if the airspeed is allowed to drop too low. With a typical light plane I would assume that an unbanked turn would be driven by this effect more than the sideways component of engine thrust.
              $endgroup$
              – quiet flyer
              Jul 29 at 16:45
















            1












            $begingroup$

            If a plane is moving e.g. north and one wants it to be moving northeast, one must apply an eastward force to the airplane. A plane has four kinds of forces acting upon it--thrust, drag (force parallel to motion), "lift" (force perpendicular to motion), and gravity. The direction of gravity can't be changed, and drag will be parallel to the direction the plane is moving, rather than the direction one wants it to go. Thus, the only two forces that can be used to change the direction the plane is moving (as opposed to pointing) are thrust and lift.



            If one didn't turn very fast, one could change an airplane's direction of motion while keeping the wings "level" side-to-side, but one's ability to do this in most planes would be very limited because thrust is small relative to lift, and wings are designed to produce lift from relative air motion in a fore-to-aft direction, rather than sideways. Consequently, it wouldn't be possible to change the direction of thrust very much relative to the direction of motion without rendering the wings ineffective. Banking makes it possible to change a plane's direction much more effectively because rather than using a tiny portion of the relatively small thrust force for that purpose, it uses a much greater portion of a much larger lift force.



            As mentioned by Quiet Flier, the side profile of the fuselage may act something like a wing with regard to air which is moving past the plane at a sideways angle, and thus provide some sideways acceleration, but since most planes' bodies aren't designed to be used in this fashion, they will be far more effective at producing force perpendicular to air movement than would be wings which are actually designed for that purpose.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$














            • $begingroup$
              This answer could be expanded to mention aerodynamic sideforcec which is sideways lift generated by the fuselage acting as a sideways wing. Even gliders with ample fuselage side area can do wings-level skidding turns, though it is horribly inefficient, and the turn rate is low, and the maneuver invites a spin if the airspeed is allowed to drop too low. With a typical light plane I would assume that an unbanked turn would be driven by this effect more than the sideways component of engine thrust.
              $endgroup$
              – quiet flyer
              Jul 29 at 16:45














            1












            1








            1





            $begingroup$

            If a plane is moving e.g. north and one wants it to be moving northeast, one must apply an eastward force to the airplane. A plane has four kinds of forces acting upon it--thrust, drag (force parallel to motion), "lift" (force perpendicular to motion), and gravity. The direction of gravity can't be changed, and drag will be parallel to the direction the plane is moving, rather than the direction one wants it to go. Thus, the only two forces that can be used to change the direction the plane is moving (as opposed to pointing) are thrust and lift.



            If one didn't turn very fast, one could change an airplane's direction of motion while keeping the wings "level" side-to-side, but one's ability to do this in most planes would be very limited because thrust is small relative to lift, and wings are designed to produce lift from relative air motion in a fore-to-aft direction, rather than sideways. Consequently, it wouldn't be possible to change the direction of thrust very much relative to the direction of motion without rendering the wings ineffective. Banking makes it possible to change a plane's direction much more effectively because rather than using a tiny portion of the relatively small thrust force for that purpose, it uses a much greater portion of a much larger lift force.



            As mentioned by Quiet Flier, the side profile of the fuselage may act something like a wing with regard to air which is moving past the plane at a sideways angle, and thus provide some sideways acceleration, but since most planes' bodies aren't designed to be used in this fashion, they will be far more effective at producing force perpendicular to air movement than would be wings which are actually designed for that purpose.






            share|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            If a plane is moving e.g. north and one wants it to be moving northeast, one must apply an eastward force to the airplane. A plane has four kinds of forces acting upon it--thrust, drag (force parallel to motion), "lift" (force perpendicular to motion), and gravity. The direction of gravity can't be changed, and drag will be parallel to the direction the plane is moving, rather than the direction one wants it to go. Thus, the only two forces that can be used to change the direction the plane is moving (as opposed to pointing) are thrust and lift.



            If one didn't turn very fast, one could change an airplane's direction of motion while keeping the wings "level" side-to-side, but one's ability to do this in most planes would be very limited because thrust is small relative to lift, and wings are designed to produce lift from relative air motion in a fore-to-aft direction, rather than sideways. Consequently, it wouldn't be possible to change the direction of thrust very much relative to the direction of motion without rendering the wings ineffective. Banking makes it possible to change a plane's direction much more effectively because rather than using a tiny portion of the relatively small thrust force for that purpose, it uses a much greater portion of a much larger lift force.



            As mentioned by Quiet Flier, the side profile of the fuselage may act something like a wing with regard to air which is moving past the plane at a sideways angle, and thus provide some sideways acceleration, but since most planes' bodies aren't designed to be used in this fashion, they will be far more effective at producing force perpendicular to air movement than would be wings which are actually designed for that purpose.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited Jul 29 at 17:07

























            answered Jul 29 at 15:53









            supercatsupercat

            2983 silver badges10 bronze badges




            2983 silver badges10 bronze badges














            • $begingroup$
              This answer could be expanded to mention aerodynamic sideforcec which is sideways lift generated by the fuselage acting as a sideways wing. Even gliders with ample fuselage side area can do wings-level skidding turns, though it is horribly inefficient, and the turn rate is low, and the maneuver invites a spin if the airspeed is allowed to drop too low. With a typical light plane I would assume that an unbanked turn would be driven by this effect more than the sideways component of engine thrust.
              $endgroup$
              – quiet flyer
              Jul 29 at 16:45

















            • $begingroup$
              This answer could be expanded to mention aerodynamic sideforcec which is sideways lift generated by the fuselage acting as a sideways wing. Even gliders with ample fuselage side area can do wings-level skidding turns, though it is horribly inefficient, and the turn rate is low, and the maneuver invites a spin if the airspeed is allowed to drop too low. With a typical light plane I would assume that an unbanked turn would be driven by this effect more than the sideways component of engine thrust.
              $endgroup$
              – quiet flyer
              Jul 29 at 16:45
















            $begingroup$
            This answer could be expanded to mention aerodynamic sideforcec which is sideways lift generated by the fuselage acting as a sideways wing. Even gliders with ample fuselage side area can do wings-level skidding turns, though it is horribly inefficient, and the turn rate is low, and the maneuver invites a spin if the airspeed is allowed to drop too low. With a typical light plane I would assume that an unbanked turn would be driven by this effect more than the sideways component of engine thrust.
            $endgroup$
            – quiet flyer
            Jul 29 at 16:45





            $begingroup$
            This answer could be expanded to mention aerodynamic sideforcec which is sideways lift generated by the fuselage acting as a sideways wing. Even gliders with ample fuselage side area can do wings-level skidding turns, though it is horribly inefficient, and the turn rate is low, and the maneuver invites a spin if the airspeed is allowed to drop too low. With a typical light plane I would assume that an unbanked turn would be driven by this effect more than the sideways component of engine thrust.
            $endgroup$
            – quiet flyer
            Jul 29 at 16:45


















            draft saved

            draft discarded
















































            Thanks for contributing an answer to Aviation Stack Exchange!


            • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

            But avoid


            • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

            • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

            Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


            To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2faviation.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f67026%2fwhy-do-planes-need-a-roll-motion%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown





















































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown

































            Required, but never shown














            Required, but never shown












            Required, but never shown







            Required, but never shown







            Popular posts from this blog

            Grendel Contents Story Scholarship Depictions Notes References Navigation menu10.1093/notesj/gjn112Berserkeree

            Area configuration aggregation error after install Porto themeMagento 2.1 CE Installed but front/backend not loading/workingCSS not loading on page within Magento 2 pageCannot install module in Magento 2no commands defined in the “setup” namespace. in Magento2Magento 2: Static files are present but shows 404Why do i have to always run the commands to clean cache in Magento 2.1.8?Failure reason: 'Unable to unserialize value.'Error 500 after magento migrationIn production mode the site does not loadMagento 2 : Error 500 after installing

            Middle Expansion Olielle Resaix Definition: Uttering songs of triumph shouting with joy triumphant exulting Sejunction Journal 붙다 달 고급 품목 외출 The stretch trades the screeching tin. Definition: The act of speaking with a drawl a drawl Cough Sand Definition: An uproar a quarrel a noisy outbreak Shake Iron Publicize Horse House Baby 사과 Resaix Flaggy Jelly Temporary Unequaled Puppet A drop in the bucket Shrew 성격 회원 성질 미팅 The burn frames the tacky quality. Materialistic The smoke reduces the way. Yammoe Nondescript Cheek 얼굴 배 약하다 날리다 타다 The illegal country shows the iron. Help Rule Drearien Smoke Teaching Meaty Wasp Abraham Lincoln Jaws 진심 수리하다 Size Cork Idea Convert Think Lark John Lennon 거울 청소 군 추천하다 아이스크림