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What does “autolyco-sentimental” mean?
What word or phrase can describe this abyssal void like emotion?What does “close to you behind the door” mean?Why does “unisex” mean both sexes?What does “a-” before a verb mean?What does “edgy beat” mean?What does “Nine Below Zero” mean?Why does unremitting mean going on without interruptions?What does the prefix iso- mean in “isolate”?What does the prefix “aff” mean?What does “you dropped them keys” mean?What does “snappy number” mean in Jazz?
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Wagner is said to have described Mayerbeer's operas as follows:
(translated into English and originally written in German, probably.)
"Meyerbeer ... wanted a monstrous, piebald, historico-romantic, diabolico-religious, fanatica-libidinous, sacra-frivolous, mysterio-criminal, autolyco-sentimental dramatic hodgepodge ..."
I can never even guess what "autolyco-" means. I didn't find any definition in any dictionary in any language. But this is quoted in a few books.
What is the answer?
meaning prefixes music
|
show 2 more comments
Wagner is said to have described Mayerbeer's operas as follows:
(translated into English and originally written in German, probably.)
"Meyerbeer ... wanted a monstrous, piebald, historico-romantic, diabolico-religious, fanatica-libidinous, sacra-frivolous, mysterio-criminal, autolyco-sentimental dramatic hodgepodge ..."
I can never even guess what "autolyco-" means. I didn't find any definition in any dictionary in any language. But this is quoted in a few books.
What is the answer?
meaning prefixes music
Do you have a source for this?
– Mick
Aug 4 at 3:36
I saw this on The Lives of the Great Composers by Harold C. Scheonberg, Chapter 16.
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:48
@PeterMortenson "I found no definition..." is perfectly grammatical, as is "Does anyone know what X means?" As the saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
– Mari-Lou A
Aug 4 at 18:29
2
Perhaps this was meant to be analytico-sentimental, in keeping with the other pairs. It’s an oddico-normality brought on by excessive machine use.
– Global Charm
Aug 4 at 20:02
1
@GlobalCharm That was my first impression, but the pairs aren't necessarily opposites, just incongruities. And 'Autolycos', despite the (to me obscure) Greek mythology reference, works as a translation (Autolycos was a thief, and that is one of the meanings of 'gauner').
– Mitch
Aug 4 at 20:34
|
show 2 more comments
Wagner is said to have described Mayerbeer's operas as follows:
(translated into English and originally written in German, probably.)
"Meyerbeer ... wanted a monstrous, piebald, historico-romantic, diabolico-religious, fanatica-libidinous, sacra-frivolous, mysterio-criminal, autolyco-sentimental dramatic hodgepodge ..."
I can never even guess what "autolyco-" means. I didn't find any definition in any dictionary in any language. But this is quoted in a few books.
What is the answer?
meaning prefixes music
Wagner is said to have described Mayerbeer's operas as follows:
(translated into English and originally written in German, probably.)
"Meyerbeer ... wanted a monstrous, piebald, historico-romantic, diabolico-religious, fanatica-libidinous, sacra-frivolous, mysterio-criminal, autolyco-sentimental dramatic hodgepodge ..."
I can never even guess what "autolyco-" means. I didn't find any definition in any dictionary in any language. But this is quoted in a few books.
What is the answer?
meaning prefixes music
meaning prefixes music
edited Aug 5 at 13:29
David Richerby
3,8121 gold badge15 silver badges33 bronze badges
3,8121 gold badge15 silver badges33 bronze badges
asked Aug 4 at 2:43
kimweonillkimweonill
1188 bronze badges
1188 bronze badges
Do you have a source for this?
– Mick
Aug 4 at 3:36
I saw this on The Lives of the Great Composers by Harold C. Scheonberg, Chapter 16.
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:48
@PeterMortenson "I found no definition..." is perfectly grammatical, as is "Does anyone know what X means?" As the saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
– Mari-Lou A
Aug 4 at 18:29
2
Perhaps this was meant to be analytico-sentimental, in keeping with the other pairs. It’s an oddico-normality brought on by excessive machine use.
– Global Charm
Aug 4 at 20:02
1
@GlobalCharm That was my first impression, but the pairs aren't necessarily opposites, just incongruities. And 'Autolycos', despite the (to me obscure) Greek mythology reference, works as a translation (Autolycos was a thief, and that is one of the meanings of 'gauner').
– Mitch
Aug 4 at 20:34
|
show 2 more comments
Do you have a source for this?
– Mick
Aug 4 at 3:36
I saw this on The Lives of the Great Composers by Harold C. Scheonberg, Chapter 16.
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:48
@PeterMortenson "I found no definition..." is perfectly grammatical, as is "Does anyone know what X means?" As the saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
– Mari-Lou A
Aug 4 at 18:29
2
Perhaps this was meant to be analytico-sentimental, in keeping with the other pairs. It’s an oddico-normality brought on by excessive machine use.
– Global Charm
Aug 4 at 20:02
1
@GlobalCharm That was my first impression, but the pairs aren't necessarily opposites, just incongruities. And 'Autolycos', despite the (to me obscure) Greek mythology reference, works as a translation (Autolycos was a thief, and that is one of the meanings of 'gauner').
– Mitch
Aug 4 at 20:34
Do you have a source for this?
– Mick
Aug 4 at 3:36
Do you have a source for this?
– Mick
Aug 4 at 3:36
I saw this on The Lives of the Great Composers by Harold C. Scheonberg, Chapter 16.
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:48
I saw this on The Lives of the Great Composers by Harold C. Scheonberg, Chapter 16.
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:48
@PeterMortenson "I found no definition..." is perfectly grammatical, as is "Does anyone know what X means?" As the saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
– Mari-Lou A
Aug 4 at 18:29
@PeterMortenson "I found no definition..." is perfectly grammatical, as is "Does anyone know what X means?" As the saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
– Mari-Lou A
Aug 4 at 18:29
2
2
Perhaps this was meant to be analytico-sentimental, in keeping with the other pairs. It’s an oddico-normality brought on by excessive machine use.
– Global Charm
Aug 4 at 20:02
Perhaps this was meant to be analytico-sentimental, in keeping with the other pairs. It’s an oddico-normality brought on by excessive machine use.
– Global Charm
Aug 4 at 20:02
1
1
@GlobalCharm That was my first impression, but the pairs aren't necessarily opposites, just incongruities. And 'Autolycos', despite the (to me obscure) Greek mythology reference, works as a translation (Autolycos was a thief, and that is one of the meanings of 'gauner').
– Mitch
Aug 4 at 20:34
@GlobalCharm That was my first impression, but the pairs aren't necessarily opposites, just incongruities. And 'Autolycos', despite the (to me obscure) Greek mythology reference, works as a translation (Autolycos was a thief, and that is one of the meanings of 'gauner').
– Mitch
Aug 4 at 20:34
|
show 2 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
The quote is not Berlioz but from Wagner’s book-length essay “Oper und Drama” (Opera and Drama). Wagner wrote it in 1851, and it was published the following year in Leipzig.
Your text is just one translation, the one that runs:
Weber wanted a Drama that could pass with all its members, with every scenic
nuance, into his noble, soulful Melody: — Meyerbeer, on the contrary,
wanted a monstrous piebald, historico-romantic, diabolico-religious,
fanatico-libidinous, sacro-frivolous, mysterio-criminal,
autolyco-sentimental dramatic hotch-potch, therein to find material for a
curious chimeric music, — a want which, owing to the indomitable buckram
of his musical temperament, could never be quite suitably supplied.
But here’s another, this time from Edwin Evan’s 1913 translation, where the translator has seized on different wording here:
Weber wanted a libretto of such character as to enable it, at all times and
with every scenic shade of colouring, to rise up into his noble soulful
melody. Meyerbeer, on the other hand, wanted a huge, parti-coloured,
historico-romantic, satanico-pious, dogmatico-lewd, sancto-nonsensical,
mystico-daring, sentimentally roguish, stagy conglomeration of all sorts,
in order to provide him with the occasion for inventing fearfully curious
music which, however, could never prove successful in application, in
consequence of the natural thickness of his musical skin.
So this is talking about some “roguish” activity — as Mick notes, alluding to a thieving figure from classical mythology who used tricks to deceive his neighbors.
Seems pretty roguish to me.
Yes, it was Wagner who said it. My mistake. Thank you so much!
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:58
add a comment |
Autolyco- From the Greek autolycus, meaning "the wolf itself" (i.e. savage, without sentiment).
Wikipedia: Autolycus
So, autolyco-sentimental is, perhaps, an oxymoron meaning both with and without sentiment.
Also:
Autolycus
Greek mythology
A thief who stole cattle from his neighbour Sisyphus and prevented him from recognizing them by making them invisible
Collins Dictionary
2
Auto- self, lyco- wolf (as in lycanthropy, or being a werewolf - lyco- wolf, and anthropos, man). Etymology is such fun!
– marcellothearcane
Aug 4 at 6:33
1
Many thanks to both of you!!
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:58
@marcellothearcane The translator took the German for 'thieving/roguish/scoundrel' and chose the mythological representative name. Whether that actual name's etymology really implies in all its uses 'thieving' is up to classicists.
– Mitch
Aug 4 at 20:31
@Mitch yes, my comment above was a little self-discovery regarding etymology. It could just as reasonably be someone that howls at themselves at night.
– marcellothearcane
Aug 4 at 21:09
2
I wouldn't say oxymoronic. It is perfectly possible to be sentimental about the times before one was sentimental, for that reason alone. It seems also appropriate if you miss a time when you were more ruthless or uncaring.
– Stian Yttervik
Aug 5 at 11:44
|
show 2 more comments
Completing @tchrist's answer (since I'm not able to comment), here is a quote from the original, which you can read in its entirety here:
Weber
wollte ein Drama hergestellt haben, das überall, mit jeder szenischen
Nuance in seine edle, seelenvolle Melodie aufzugehen vermochte –
Meyerbeer wollte dagegen ein ungeheuer buntscheckiges,
historisch-romantisches, teuflisch-religiöses, bigott-wollüstiges,
frivol-heiliges, geheimnisvoll-freches, sentimental-gaunerisches,
dramatisches Allerlei haben, um an ihm erst Stoff zum Auffinden einer
ungeheuer kuriosen Musik zu gewinnen – was ihm wegen des unbesieglichen
Leders seines eigentlichen musikalischen Naturelles wiederum nie
wirklich recht gelingen wollte.
I'm not a native speaker of either English or German, but it's obvious that both translations are way off the mark -- the original, while trite, is not so heavy, and has no made-up words. "Gauner" is very common term for a small criminal.
The translation also fails to convey the not so subtle dog-whistling (playing on the fact that Meyerbeer was a Jew).
1
Keep this up and you'll be able to comment in no time.
– Mr Lister
Aug 4 at 14:45
3
1. Not trite. Other than historisch-romantisch, the hyphenated adjectives are all absurd nonce words, i.e., made up, accentuating the random, chaotic relationship of text and music Wagner imputes to Meyerbeer. 2. A series of eight adjectives with all but two hyphenated compounds is heavy in any language. This sentence is a translator's nightmare. I'm not sure where you're hearing the dog whistle, but a bit earlier in this chapter, Wagner blandly states that as a Jew, Meyerbeer had no true native language and thus no feel for a libretto. Wagner's fullblown anti-Semitism comes later.
– KarlG
Aug 5 at 11:53
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
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The quote is not Berlioz but from Wagner’s book-length essay “Oper und Drama” (Opera and Drama). Wagner wrote it in 1851, and it was published the following year in Leipzig.
Your text is just one translation, the one that runs:
Weber wanted a Drama that could pass with all its members, with every scenic
nuance, into his noble, soulful Melody: — Meyerbeer, on the contrary,
wanted a monstrous piebald, historico-romantic, diabolico-religious,
fanatico-libidinous, sacro-frivolous, mysterio-criminal,
autolyco-sentimental dramatic hotch-potch, therein to find material for a
curious chimeric music, — a want which, owing to the indomitable buckram
of his musical temperament, could never be quite suitably supplied.
But here’s another, this time from Edwin Evan’s 1913 translation, where the translator has seized on different wording here:
Weber wanted a libretto of such character as to enable it, at all times and
with every scenic shade of colouring, to rise up into his noble soulful
melody. Meyerbeer, on the other hand, wanted a huge, parti-coloured,
historico-romantic, satanico-pious, dogmatico-lewd, sancto-nonsensical,
mystico-daring, sentimentally roguish, stagy conglomeration of all sorts,
in order to provide him with the occasion for inventing fearfully curious
music which, however, could never prove successful in application, in
consequence of the natural thickness of his musical skin.
So this is talking about some “roguish” activity — as Mick notes, alluding to a thieving figure from classical mythology who used tricks to deceive his neighbors.
Seems pretty roguish to me.
Yes, it was Wagner who said it. My mistake. Thank you so much!
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:58
add a comment |
The quote is not Berlioz but from Wagner’s book-length essay “Oper und Drama” (Opera and Drama). Wagner wrote it in 1851, and it was published the following year in Leipzig.
Your text is just one translation, the one that runs:
Weber wanted a Drama that could pass with all its members, with every scenic
nuance, into his noble, soulful Melody: — Meyerbeer, on the contrary,
wanted a monstrous piebald, historico-romantic, diabolico-religious,
fanatico-libidinous, sacro-frivolous, mysterio-criminal,
autolyco-sentimental dramatic hotch-potch, therein to find material for a
curious chimeric music, — a want which, owing to the indomitable buckram
of his musical temperament, could never be quite suitably supplied.
But here’s another, this time from Edwin Evan’s 1913 translation, where the translator has seized on different wording here:
Weber wanted a libretto of such character as to enable it, at all times and
with every scenic shade of colouring, to rise up into his noble soulful
melody. Meyerbeer, on the other hand, wanted a huge, parti-coloured,
historico-romantic, satanico-pious, dogmatico-lewd, sancto-nonsensical,
mystico-daring, sentimentally roguish, stagy conglomeration of all sorts,
in order to provide him with the occasion for inventing fearfully curious
music which, however, could never prove successful in application, in
consequence of the natural thickness of his musical skin.
So this is talking about some “roguish” activity — as Mick notes, alluding to a thieving figure from classical mythology who used tricks to deceive his neighbors.
Seems pretty roguish to me.
Yes, it was Wagner who said it. My mistake. Thank you so much!
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:58
add a comment |
The quote is not Berlioz but from Wagner’s book-length essay “Oper und Drama” (Opera and Drama). Wagner wrote it in 1851, and it was published the following year in Leipzig.
Your text is just one translation, the one that runs:
Weber wanted a Drama that could pass with all its members, with every scenic
nuance, into his noble, soulful Melody: — Meyerbeer, on the contrary,
wanted a monstrous piebald, historico-romantic, diabolico-religious,
fanatico-libidinous, sacro-frivolous, mysterio-criminal,
autolyco-sentimental dramatic hotch-potch, therein to find material for a
curious chimeric music, — a want which, owing to the indomitable buckram
of his musical temperament, could never be quite suitably supplied.
But here’s another, this time from Edwin Evan’s 1913 translation, where the translator has seized on different wording here:
Weber wanted a libretto of such character as to enable it, at all times and
with every scenic shade of colouring, to rise up into his noble soulful
melody. Meyerbeer, on the other hand, wanted a huge, parti-coloured,
historico-romantic, satanico-pious, dogmatico-lewd, sancto-nonsensical,
mystico-daring, sentimentally roguish, stagy conglomeration of all sorts,
in order to provide him with the occasion for inventing fearfully curious
music which, however, could never prove successful in application, in
consequence of the natural thickness of his musical skin.
So this is talking about some “roguish” activity — as Mick notes, alluding to a thieving figure from classical mythology who used tricks to deceive his neighbors.
Seems pretty roguish to me.
The quote is not Berlioz but from Wagner’s book-length essay “Oper und Drama” (Opera and Drama). Wagner wrote it in 1851, and it was published the following year in Leipzig.
Your text is just one translation, the one that runs:
Weber wanted a Drama that could pass with all its members, with every scenic
nuance, into his noble, soulful Melody: — Meyerbeer, on the contrary,
wanted a monstrous piebald, historico-romantic, diabolico-religious,
fanatico-libidinous, sacro-frivolous, mysterio-criminal,
autolyco-sentimental dramatic hotch-potch, therein to find material for a
curious chimeric music, — a want which, owing to the indomitable buckram
of his musical temperament, could never be quite suitably supplied.
But here’s another, this time from Edwin Evan’s 1913 translation, where the translator has seized on different wording here:
Weber wanted a libretto of such character as to enable it, at all times and
with every scenic shade of colouring, to rise up into his noble soulful
melody. Meyerbeer, on the other hand, wanted a huge, parti-coloured,
historico-romantic, satanico-pious, dogmatico-lewd, sancto-nonsensical,
mystico-daring, sentimentally roguish, stagy conglomeration of all sorts,
in order to provide him with the occasion for inventing fearfully curious
music which, however, could never prove successful in application, in
consequence of the natural thickness of his musical skin.
So this is talking about some “roguish” activity — as Mick notes, alluding to a thieving figure from classical mythology who used tricks to deceive his neighbors.
Seems pretty roguish to me.
answered Aug 4 at 3:53
tchrist♦tchrist
111k30 gold badges303 silver badges483 bronze badges
111k30 gold badges303 silver badges483 bronze badges
Yes, it was Wagner who said it. My mistake. Thank you so much!
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:58
add a comment |
Yes, it was Wagner who said it. My mistake. Thank you so much!
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:58
Yes, it was Wagner who said it. My mistake. Thank you so much!
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:58
Yes, it was Wagner who said it. My mistake. Thank you so much!
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:58
add a comment |
Autolyco- From the Greek autolycus, meaning "the wolf itself" (i.e. savage, without sentiment).
Wikipedia: Autolycus
So, autolyco-sentimental is, perhaps, an oxymoron meaning both with and without sentiment.
Also:
Autolycus
Greek mythology
A thief who stole cattle from his neighbour Sisyphus and prevented him from recognizing them by making them invisible
Collins Dictionary
2
Auto- self, lyco- wolf (as in lycanthropy, or being a werewolf - lyco- wolf, and anthropos, man). Etymology is such fun!
– marcellothearcane
Aug 4 at 6:33
1
Many thanks to both of you!!
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:58
@marcellothearcane The translator took the German for 'thieving/roguish/scoundrel' and chose the mythological representative name. Whether that actual name's etymology really implies in all its uses 'thieving' is up to classicists.
– Mitch
Aug 4 at 20:31
@Mitch yes, my comment above was a little self-discovery regarding etymology. It could just as reasonably be someone that howls at themselves at night.
– marcellothearcane
Aug 4 at 21:09
2
I wouldn't say oxymoronic. It is perfectly possible to be sentimental about the times before one was sentimental, for that reason alone. It seems also appropriate if you miss a time when you were more ruthless or uncaring.
– Stian Yttervik
Aug 5 at 11:44
|
show 2 more comments
Autolyco- From the Greek autolycus, meaning "the wolf itself" (i.e. savage, without sentiment).
Wikipedia: Autolycus
So, autolyco-sentimental is, perhaps, an oxymoron meaning both with and without sentiment.
Also:
Autolycus
Greek mythology
A thief who stole cattle from his neighbour Sisyphus and prevented him from recognizing them by making them invisible
Collins Dictionary
2
Auto- self, lyco- wolf (as in lycanthropy, or being a werewolf - lyco- wolf, and anthropos, man). Etymology is such fun!
– marcellothearcane
Aug 4 at 6:33
1
Many thanks to both of you!!
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:58
@marcellothearcane The translator took the German for 'thieving/roguish/scoundrel' and chose the mythological representative name. Whether that actual name's etymology really implies in all its uses 'thieving' is up to classicists.
– Mitch
Aug 4 at 20:31
@Mitch yes, my comment above was a little self-discovery regarding etymology. It could just as reasonably be someone that howls at themselves at night.
– marcellothearcane
Aug 4 at 21:09
2
I wouldn't say oxymoronic. It is perfectly possible to be sentimental about the times before one was sentimental, for that reason alone. It seems also appropriate if you miss a time when you were more ruthless or uncaring.
– Stian Yttervik
Aug 5 at 11:44
|
show 2 more comments
Autolyco- From the Greek autolycus, meaning "the wolf itself" (i.e. savage, without sentiment).
Wikipedia: Autolycus
So, autolyco-sentimental is, perhaps, an oxymoron meaning both with and without sentiment.
Also:
Autolycus
Greek mythology
A thief who stole cattle from his neighbour Sisyphus and prevented him from recognizing them by making them invisible
Collins Dictionary
Autolyco- From the Greek autolycus, meaning "the wolf itself" (i.e. savage, without sentiment).
Wikipedia: Autolycus
So, autolyco-sentimental is, perhaps, an oxymoron meaning both with and without sentiment.
Also:
Autolycus
Greek mythology
A thief who stole cattle from his neighbour Sisyphus and prevented him from recognizing them by making them invisible
Collins Dictionary
edited Aug 4 at 3:53
answered Aug 4 at 3:42
MickMick
8,9182 gold badges14 silver badges43 bronze badges
8,9182 gold badges14 silver badges43 bronze badges
2
Auto- self, lyco- wolf (as in lycanthropy, or being a werewolf - lyco- wolf, and anthropos, man). Etymology is such fun!
– marcellothearcane
Aug 4 at 6:33
1
Many thanks to both of you!!
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:58
@marcellothearcane The translator took the German for 'thieving/roguish/scoundrel' and chose the mythological representative name. Whether that actual name's etymology really implies in all its uses 'thieving' is up to classicists.
– Mitch
Aug 4 at 20:31
@Mitch yes, my comment above was a little self-discovery regarding etymology. It could just as reasonably be someone that howls at themselves at night.
– marcellothearcane
Aug 4 at 21:09
2
I wouldn't say oxymoronic. It is perfectly possible to be sentimental about the times before one was sentimental, for that reason alone. It seems also appropriate if you miss a time when you were more ruthless or uncaring.
– Stian Yttervik
Aug 5 at 11:44
|
show 2 more comments
2
Auto- self, lyco- wolf (as in lycanthropy, or being a werewolf - lyco- wolf, and anthropos, man). Etymology is such fun!
– marcellothearcane
Aug 4 at 6:33
1
Many thanks to both of you!!
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:58
@marcellothearcane The translator took the German for 'thieving/roguish/scoundrel' and chose the mythological representative name. Whether that actual name's etymology really implies in all its uses 'thieving' is up to classicists.
– Mitch
Aug 4 at 20:31
@Mitch yes, my comment above was a little self-discovery regarding etymology. It could just as reasonably be someone that howls at themselves at night.
– marcellothearcane
Aug 4 at 21:09
2
I wouldn't say oxymoronic. It is perfectly possible to be sentimental about the times before one was sentimental, for that reason alone. It seems also appropriate if you miss a time when you were more ruthless or uncaring.
– Stian Yttervik
Aug 5 at 11:44
2
2
Auto- self, lyco- wolf (as in lycanthropy, or being a werewolf - lyco- wolf, and anthropos, man). Etymology is such fun!
– marcellothearcane
Aug 4 at 6:33
Auto- self, lyco- wolf (as in lycanthropy, or being a werewolf - lyco- wolf, and anthropos, man). Etymology is such fun!
– marcellothearcane
Aug 4 at 6:33
1
1
Many thanks to both of you!!
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:58
Many thanks to both of you!!
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:58
@marcellothearcane The translator took the German for 'thieving/roguish/scoundrel' and chose the mythological representative name. Whether that actual name's etymology really implies in all its uses 'thieving' is up to classicists.
– Mitch
Aug 4 at 20:31
@marcellothearcane The translator took the German for 'thieving/roguish/scoundrel' and chose the mythological representative name. Whether that actual name's etymology really implies in all its uses 'thieving' is up to classicists.
– Mitch
Aug 4 at 20:31
@Mitch yes, my comment above was a little self-discovery regarding etymology. It could just as reasonably be someone that howls at themselves at night.
– marcellothearcane
Aug 4 at 21:09
@Mitch yes, my comment above was a little self-discovery regarding etymology. It could just as reasonably be someone that howls at themselves at night.
– marcellothearcane
Aug 4 at 21:09
2
2
I wouldn't say oxymoronic. It is perfectly possible to be sentimental about the times before one was sentimental, for that reason alone. It seems also appropriate if you miss a time when you were more ruthless or uncaring.
– Stian Yttervik
Aug 5 at 11:44
I wouldn't say oxymoronic. It is perfectly possible to be sentimental about the times before one was sentimental, for that reason alone. It seems also appropriate if you miss a time when you were more ruthless or uncaring.
– Stian Yttervik
Aug 5 at 11:44
|
show 2 more comments
Completing @tchrist's answer (since I'm not able to comment), here is a quote from the original, which you can read in its entirety here:
Weber
wollte ein Drama hergestellt haben, das überall, mit jeder szenischen
Nuance in seine edle, seelenvolle Melodie aufzugehen vermochte –
Meyerbeer wollte dagegen ein ungeheuer buntscheckiges,
historisch-romantisches, teuflisch-religiöses, bigott-wollüstiges,
frivol-heiliges, geheimnisvoll-freches, sentimental-gaunerisches,
dramatisches Allerlei haben, um an ihm erst Stoff zum Auffinden einer
ungeheuer kuriosen Musik zu gewinnen – was ihm wegen des unbesieglichen
Leders seines eigentlichen musikalischen Naturelles wiederum nie
wirklich recht gelingen wollte.
I'm not a native speaker of either English or German, but it's obvious that both translations are way off the mark -- the original, while trite, is not so heavy, and has no made-up words. "Gauner" is very common term for a small criminal.
The translation also fails to convey the not so subtle dog-whistling (playing on the fact that Meyerbeer was a Jew).
1
Keep this up and you'll be able to comment in no time.
– Mr Lister
Aug 4 at 14:45
3
1. Not trite. Other than historisch-romantisch, the hyphenated adjectives are all absurd nonce words, i.e., made up, accentuating the random, chaotic relationship of text and music Wagner imputes to Meyerbeer. 2. A series of eight adjectives with all but two hyphenated compounds is heavy in any language. This sentence is a translator's nightmare. I'm not sure where you're hearing the dog whistle, but a bit earlier in this chapter, Wagner blandly states that as a Jew, Meyerbeer had no true native language and thus no feel for a libretto. Wagner's fullblown anti-Semitism comes later.
– KarlG
Aug 5 at 11:53
add a comment |
Completing @tchrist's answer (since I'm not able to comment), here is a quote from the original, which you can read in its entirety here:
Weber
wollte ein Drama hergestellt haben, das überall, mit jeder szenischen
Nuance in seine edle, seelenvolle Melodie aufzugehen vermochte –
Meyerbeer wollte dagegen ein ungeheuer buntscheckiges,
historisch-romantisches, teuflisch-religiöses, bigott-wollüstiges,
frivol-heiliges, geheimnisvoll-freches, sentimental-gaunerisches,
dramatisches Allerlei haben, um an ihm erst Stoff zum Auffinden einer
ungeheuer kuriosen Musik zu gewinnen – was ihm wegen des unbesieglichen
Leders seines eigentlichen musikalischen Naturelles wiederum nie
wirklich recht gelingen wollte.
I'm not a native speaker of either English or German, but it's obvious that both translations are way off the mark -- the original, while trite, is not so heavy, and has no made-up words. "Gauner" is very common term for a small criminal.
The translation also fails to convey the not so subtle dog-whistling (playing on the fact that Meyerbeer was a Jew).
1
Keep this up and you'll be able to comment in no time.
– Mr Lister
Aug 4 at 14:45
3
1. Not trite. Other than historisch-romantisch, the hyphenated adjectives are all absurd nonce words, i.e., made up, accentuating the random, chaotic relationship of text and music Wagner imputes to Meyerbeer. 2. A series of eight adjectives with all but two hyphenated compounds is heavy in any language. This sentence is a translator's nightmare. I'm not sure where you're hearing the dog whistle, but a bit earlier in this chapter, Wagner blandly states that as a Jew, Meyerbeer had no true native language and thus no feel for a libretto. Wagner's fullblown anti-Semitism comes later.
– KarlG
Aug 5 at 11:53
add a comment |
Completing @tchrist's answer (since I'm not able to comment), here is a quote from the original, which you can read in its entirety here:
Weber
wollte ein Drama hergestellt haben, das überall, mit jeder szenischen
Nuance in seine edle, seelenvolle Melodie aufzugehen vermochte –
Meyerbeer wollte dagegen ein ungeheuer buntscheckiges,
historisch-romantisches, teuflisch-religiöses, bigott-wollüstiges,
frivol-heiliges, geheimnisvoll-freches, sentimental-gaunerisches,
dramatisches Allerlei haben, um an ihm erst Stoff zum Auffinden einer
ungeheuer kuriosen Musik zu gewinnen – was ihm wegen des unbesieglichen
Leders seines eigentlichen musikalischen Naturelles wiederum nie
wirklich recht gelingen wollte.
I'm not a native speaker of either English or German, but it's obvious that both translations are way off the mark -- the original, while trite, is not so heavy, and has no made-up words. "Gauner" is very common term for a small criminal.
The translation also fails to convey the not so subtle dog-whistling (playing on the fact that Meyerbeer was a Jew).
Completing @tchrist's answer (since I'm not able to comment), here is a quote from the original, which you can read in its entirety here:
Weber
wollte ein Drama hergestellt haben, das überall, mit jeder szenischen
Nuance in seine edle, seelenvolle Melodie aufzugehen vermochte –
Meyerbeer wollte dagegen ein ungeheuer buntscheckiges,
historisch-romantisches, teuflisch-religiöses, bigott-wollüstiges,
frivol-heiliges, geheimnisvoll-freches, sentimental-gaunerisches,
dramatisches Allerlei haben, um an ihm erst Stoff zum Auffinden einer
ungeheuer kuriosen Musik zu gewinnen – was ihm wegen des unbesieglichen
Leders seines eigentlichen musikalischen Naturelles wiederum nie
wirklich recht gelingen wollte.
I'm not a native speaker of either English or German, but it's obvious that both translations are way off the mark -- the original, while trite, is not so heavy, and has no made-up words. "Gauner" is very common term for a small criminal.
The translation also fails to convey the not so subtle dog-whistling (playing on the fact that Meyerbeer was a Jew).
answered Aug 4 at 13:45
Impudent SnobImpudent Snob
1372 bronze badges
1372 bronze badges
1
Keep this up and you'll be able to comment in no time.
– Mr Lister
Aug 4 at 14:45
3
1. Not trite. Other than historisch-romantisch, the hyphenated adjectives are all absurd nonce words, i.e., made up, accentuating the random, chaotic relationship of text and music Wagner imputes to Meyerbeer. 2. A series of eight adjectives with all but two hyphenated compounds is heavy in any language. This sentence is a translator's nightmare. I'm not sure where you're hearing the dog whistle, but a bit earlier in this chapter, Wagner blandly states that as a Jew, Meyerbeer had no true native language and thus no feel for a libretto. Wagner's fullblown anti-Semitism comes later.
– KarlG
Aug 5 at 11:53
add a comment |
1
Keep this up and you'll be able to comment in no time.
– Mr Lister
Aug 4 at 14:45
3
1. Not trite. Other than historisch-romantisch, the hyphenated adjectives are all absurd nonce words, i.e., made up, accentuating the random, chaotic relationship of text and music Wagner imputes to Meyerbeer. 2. A series of eight adjectives with all but two hyphenated compounds is heavy in any language. This sentence is a translator's nightmare. I'm not sure where you're hearing the dog whistle, but a bit earlier in this chapter, Wagner blandly states that as a Jew, Meyerbeer had no true native language and thus no feel for a libretto. Wagner's fullblown anti-Semitism comes later.
– KarlG
Aug 5 at 11:53
1
1
Keep this up and you'll be able to comment in no time.
– Mr Lister
Aug 4 at 14:45
Keep this up and you'll be able to comment in no time.
– Mr Lister
Aug 4 at 14:45
3
3
1. Not trite. Other than historisch-romantisch, the hyphenated adjectives are all absurd nonce words, i.e., made up, accentuating the random, chaotic relationship of text and music Wagner imputes to Meyerbeer. 2. A series of eight adjectives with all but two hyphenated compounds is heavy in any language. This sentence is a translator's nightmare. I'm not sure where you're hearing the dog whistle, but a bit earlier in this chapter, Wagner blandly states that as a Jew, Meyerbeer had no true native language and thus no feel for a libretto. Wagner's fullblown anti-Semitism comes later.
– KarlG
Aug 5 at 11:53
1. Not trite. Other than historisch-romantisch, the hyphenated adjectives are all absurd nonce words, i.e., made up, accentuating the random, chaotic relationship of text and music Wagner imputes to Meyerbeer. 2. A series of eight adjectives with all but two hyphenated compounds is heavy in any language. This sentence is a translator's nightmare. I'm not sure where you're hearing the dog whistle, but a bit earlier in this chapter, Wagner blandly states that as a Jew, Meyerbeer had no true native language and thus no feel for a libretto. Wagner's fullblown anti-Semitism comes later.
– KarlG
Aug 5 at 11:53
add a comment |
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Do you have a source for this?
– Mick
Aug 4 at 3:36
I saw this on The Lives of the Great Composers by Harold C. Scheonberg, Chapter 16.
– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:48
@PeterMortenson "I found no definition..." is perfectly grammatical, as is "Does anyone know what X means?" As the saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
– Mari-Lou A
Aug 4 at 18:29
2
Perhaps this was meant to be analytico-sentimental, in keeping with the other pairs. It’s an oddico-normality brought on by excessive machine use.
– Global Charm
Aug 4 at 20:02
1
@GlobalCharm That was my first impression, but the pairs aren't necessarily opposites, just incongruities. And 'Autolycos', despite the (to me obscure) Greek mythology reference, works as a translation (Autolycos was a thief, and that is one of the meanings of 'gauner').
– Mitch
Aug 4 at 20:34