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What does “autolyco-sentimental” mean?


What word or phrase can describe this abyssal void like emotion?What does “close to you behind the door” mean?Why does “unisex” mean both sexes?What does “a-” before a verb mean?What does “edgy beat” mean?What does “Nine Below Zero” mean?Why does unremitting mean going on without interruptions?What does the prefix iso- mean in “isolate”?What does the prefix “aff” mean?What does “you dropped them keys” mean?What does “snappy number” mean in Jazz?






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








11















Wagner is said to have described Mayerbeer's operas as follows:



(translated into English and originally written in German, probably.)



"Meyerbeer ... wanted a monstrous, piebald, historico-romantic, diabolico-religious, fanatica-libidinous, sacra-frivolous, mysterio-criminal, autolyco-sentimental dramatic hodgepodge ..."



I can never even guess what "autolyco-" means. I didn't find any definition in any dictionary in any language. But this is quoted in a few books.



What is the answer?










share|improve this question


























  • Do you have a source for this?

    – Mick
    Aug 4 at 3:36











  • I saw this on The Lives of the Great Composers by Harold C. Scheonberg, Chapter 16.

    – kimweonill
    Aug 4 at 6:48











  • @PeterMortenson "I found no definition..." is perfectly grammatical, as is "Does anyone know what X means?" As the saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

    – Mari-Lou A
    Aug 4 at 18:29






  • 2





    Perhaps this was meant to be analytico-sentimental, in keeping with the other pairs. It’s an oddico-normality brought on by excessive machine use.

    – Global Charm
    Aug 4 at 20:02






  • 1





    @GlobalCharm That was my first impression, but the pairs aren't necessarily opposites, just incongruities. And 'Autolycos', despite the (to me obscure) Greek mythology reference, works as a translation (Autolycos was a thief, and that is one of the meanings of 'gauner').

    – Mitch
    Aug 4 at 20:34

















11















Wagner is said to have described Mayerbeer's operas as follows:



(translated into English and originally written in German, probably.)



"Meyerbeer ... wanted a monstrous, piebald, historico-romantic, diabolico-religious, fanatica-libidinous, sacra-frivolous, mysterio-criminal, autolyco-sentimental dramatic hodgepodge ..."



I can never even guess what "autolyco-" means. I didn't find any definition in any dictionary in any language. But this is quoted in a few books.



What is the answer?










share|improve this question


























  • Do you have a source for this?

    – Mick
    Aug 4 at 3:36











  • I saw this on The Lives of the Great Composers by Harold C. Scheonberg, Chapter 16.

    – kimweonill
    Aug 4 at 6:48











  • @PeterMortenson "I found no definition..." is perfectly grammatical, as is "Does anyone know what X means?" As the saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

    – Mari-Lou A
    Aug 4 at 18:29






  • 2





    Perhaps this was meant to be analytico-sentimental, in keeping with the other pairs. It’s an oddico-normality brought on by excessive machine use.

    – Global Charm
    Aug 4 at 20:02






  • 1





    @GlobalCharm That was my first impression, but the pairs aren't necessarily opposites, just incongruities. And 'Autolycos', despite the (to me obscure) Greek mythology reference, works as a translation (Autolycos was a thief, and that is one of the meanings of 'gauner').

    – Mitch
    Aug 4 at 20:34













11












11








11








Wagner is said to have described Mayerbeer's operas as follows:



(translated into English and originally written in German, probably.)



"Meyerbeer ... wanted a monstrous, piebald, historico-romantic, diabolico-religious, fanatica-libidinous, sacra-frivolous, mysterio-criminal, autolyco-sentimental dramatic hodgepodge ..."



I can never even guess what "autolyco-" means. I didn't find any definition in any dictionary in any language. But this is quoted in a few books.



What is the answer?










share|improve this question
















Wagner is said to have described Mayerbeer's operas as follows:



(translated into English and originally written in German, probably.)



"Meyerbeer ... wanted a monstrous, piebald, historico-romantic, diabolico-religious, fanatica-libidinous, sacra-frivolous, mysterio-criminal, autolyco-sentimental dramatic hodgepodge ..."



I can never even guess what "autolyco-" means. I didn't find any definition in any dictionary in any language. But this is quoted in a few books.



What is the answer?







meaning prefixes music






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Aug 5 at 13:29









David Richerby

3,8121 gold badge15 silver badges33 bronze badges




3,8121 gold badge15 silver badges33 bronze badges










asked Aug 4 at 2:43









kimweonillkimweonill

1188 bronze badges




1188 bronze badges















  • Do you have a source for this?

    – Mick
    Aug 4 at 3:36











  • I saw this on The Lives of the Great Composers by Harold C. Scheonberg, Chapter 16.

    – kimweonill
    Aug 4 at 6:48











  • @PeterMortenson "I found no definition..." is perfectly grammatical, as is "Does anyone know what X means?" As the saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

    – Mari-Lou A
    Aug 4 at 18:29






  • 2





    Perhaps this was meant to be analytico-sentimental, in keeping with the other pairs. It’s an oddico-normality brought on by excessive machine use.

    – Global Charm
    Aug 4 at 20:02






  • 1





    @GlobalCharm That was my first impression, but the pairs aren't necessarily opposites, just incongruities. And 'Autolycos', despite the (to me obscure) Greek mythology reference, works as a translation (Autolycos was a thief, and that is one of the meanings of 'gauner').

    – Mitch
    Aug 4 at 20:34

















  • Do you have a source for this?

    – Mick
    Aug 4 at 3:36











  • I saw this on The Lives of the Great Composers by Harold C. Scheonberg, Chapter 16.

    – kimweonill
    Aug 4 at 6:48











  • @PeterMortenson "I found no definition..." is perfectly grammatical, as is "Does anyone know what X means?" As the saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

    – Mari-Lou A
    Aug 4 at 18:29






  • 2





    Perhaps this was meant to be analytico-sentimental, in keeping with the other pairs. It’s an oddico-normality brought on by excessive machine use.

    – Global Charm
    Aug 4 at 20:02






  • 1





    @GlobalCharm That was my first impression, but the pairs aren't necessarily opposites, just incongruities. And 'Autolycos', despite the (to me obscure) Greek mythology reference, works as a translation (Autolycos was a thief, and that is one of the meanings of 'gauner').

    – Mitch
    Aug 4 at 20:34
















Do you have a source for this?

– Mick
Aug 4 at 3:36





Do you have a source for this?

– Mick
Aug 4 at 3:36













I saw this on The Lives of the Great Composers by Harold C. Scheonberg, Chapter 16.

– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:48





I saw this on The Lives of the Great Composers by Harold C. Scheonberg, Chapter 16.

– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:48













@PeterMortenson "I found no definition..." is perfectly grammatical, as is "Does anyone know what X means?" As the saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

– Mari-Lou A
Aug 4 at 18:29





@PeterMortenson "I found no definition..." is perfectly grammatical, as is "Does anyone know what X means?" As the saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

– Mari-Lou A
Aug 4 at 18:29




2




2





Perhaps this was meant to be analytico-sentimental, in keeping with the other pairs. It’s an oddico-normality brought on by excessive machine use.

– Global Charm
Aug 4 at 20:02





Perhaps this was meant to be analytico-sentimental, in keeping with the other pairs. It’s an oddico-normality brought on by excessive machine use.

– Global Charm
Aug 4 at 20:02




1




1





@GlobalCharm That was my first impression, but the pairs aren't necessarily opposites, just incongruities. And 'Autolycos', despite the (to me obscure) Greek mythology reference, works as a translation (Autolycos was a thief, and that is one of the meanings of 'gauner').

– Mitch
Aug 4 at 20:34





@GlobalCharm That was my first impression, but the pairs aren't necessarily opposites, just incongruities. And 'Autolycos', despite the (to me obscure) Greek mythology reference, works as a translation (Autolycos was a thief, and that is one of the meanings of 'gauner').

– Mitch
Aug 4 at 20:34










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















12














The quote is not Berlioz but from Wagner’s book-length essay “Oper und Drama” (Opera and Drama). Wagner wrote it in 1851, and it was published the following year in Leipzig.



Your text is just one translation, the one that runs:




Weber wanted a Drama that could pass with all its members, with every scenic
nuance, into his noble, soulful Melody: — Meyerbeer, on the contrary,
wanted a monstrous piebald, historico-romantic, diabolico-religious,
fanatico-libidinous, sacro-frivolous, mysterio-criminal,
autolyco-sentimental dramatic hotch-potch, therein to find material for a
curious chimeric music, — a want which, owing to the indomitable buckram
of his musical temperament, could never be quite suitably supplied.




But here’s another, this time from Edwin Evan’s 1913 translation, where the translator has seized on different wording here:




Weber wanted a libretto of such character as to enable it, at all times and
with every scenic shade of colouring, to rise up into his noble soulful
melody. Meyerbeer, on the other hand, wanted a huge, parti-coloured,
historico-romantic, satanico-pious, dogmatico-lewd, sancto-nonsensical,
mystico-daring, sentimentally roguish, stagy conglomeration of all sorts,
in order to provide him with the occasion for inventing fearfully curious
music which, however, could never prove successful in application, in
consequence of the natural thickness of his musical skin.




So this is talking about some “roguish” activity — as Mick notes, alluding to a thieving figure from classical mythology who used tricks to deceive his neighbors.



Seems pretty roguish to me.






share|improve this answer

























  • Yes, it was Wagner who said it. My mistake. Thank you so much!

    – kimweonill
    Aug 4 at 6:58


















29














Autolyco- From the Greek autolycus, meaning "the wolf itself" (i.e. savage, without sentiment).



Wikipedia: Autolycus



So, autolyco-sentimental is, perhaps, an oxymoron meaning both with and without sentiment.



Also:




Autolycus



Greek mythology



A thief who stole cattle from his neighbour Sisyphus and prevented him from recognizing them by making them invisible




Collins Dictionary






share|improve this answer






















  • 2





    Auto- self, lyco- wolf (as in lycanthropy, or being a werewolf - lyco- wolf, and anthropos, man). Etymology is such fun!

    – marcellothearcane
    Aug 4 at 6:33






  • 1





    Many thanks to both of you!!

    – kimweonill
    Aug 4 at 6:58











  • @marcellothearcane The translator took the German for 'thieving/roguish/scoundrel' and chose the mythological representative name. Whether that actual name's etymology really implies in all its uses 'thieving' is up to classicists.

    – Mitch
    Aug 4 at 20:31











  • @Mitch yes, my comment above was a little self-discovery regarding etymology. It could just as reasonably be someone that howls at themselves at night.

    – marcellothearcane
    Aug 4 at 21:09






  • 2





    I wouldn't say oxymoronic. It is perfectly possible to be sentimental about the times before one was sentimental, for that reason alone. It seems also appropriate if you miss a time when you were more ruthless or uncaring.

    – Stian Yttervik
    Aug 5 at 11:44


















12














Completing @tchrist's answer (since I'm not able to comment), here is a quote from the original, which you can read in its entirety here:




Weber
wollte ein Drama hergestellt haben, das überall, mit jeder szenischen
Nuance in seine edle, seelenvolle Melodie aufzugehen vermochte –
Meyerbeer wollte dagegen ein ungeheuer buntscheckiges,
historisch-romantisches, teuflisch-religiöses, bigott-wollüstiges,
frivol-heiliges, geheimnisvoll-freches, sentimental-gaunerisches,
dramatisches Allerlei haben, um an ihm erst Stoff zum Auffinden einer
ungeheuer kuriosen Musik zu gewinnen – was ihm wegen des unbesieglichen
Leders seines eigentlichen musikalischen Naturelles wiederum nie
wirklich recht gelingen wollte.




I'm not a native speaker of either English or German, but it's obvious that both translations are way off the mark -- the original, while trite, is not so heavy, and has no made-up words. "Gauner" is very common term for a small criminal.



The translation also fails to convey the not so subtle dog-whistling (playing on the fact that Meyerbeer was a Jew).






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    Keep this up and you'll be able to comment in no time.

    – Mr Lister
    Aug 4 at 14:45






  • 3





    1. Not trite. Other than historisch-romantisch, the hyphenated adjectives are all absurd nonce words, i.e., made up, accentuating the random, chaotic relationship of text and music Wagner imputes to Meyerbeer. 2. A series of eight adjectives with all but two hyphenated compounds is heavy in any language. This sentence is a translator's nightmare. I'm not sure where you're hearing the dog whistle, but a bit earlier in this chapter, Wagner blandly states that as a Jew, Meyerbeer had no true native language and thus no feel for a libretto. Wagner's fullblown anti-Semitism comes later.

    – KarlG
    Aug 5 at 11:53













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3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes








3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









12














The quote is not Berlioz but from Wagner’s book-length essay “Oper und Drama” (Opera and Drama). Wagner wrote it in 1851, and it was published the following year in Leipzig.



Your text is just one translation, the one that runs:




Weber wanted a Drama that could pass with all its members, with every scenic
nuance, into his noble, soulful Melody: — Meyerbeer, on the contrary,
wanted a monstrous piebald, historico-romantic, diabolico-religious,
fanatico-libidinous, sacro-frivolous, mysterio-criminal,
autolyco-sentimental dramatic hotch-potch, therein to find material for a
curious chimeric music, — a want which, owing to the indomitable buckram
of his musical temperament, could never be quite suitably supplied.




But here’s another, this time from Edwin Evan’s 1913 translation, where the translator has seized on different wording here:




Weber wanted a libretto of such character as to enable it, at all times and
with every scenic shade of colouring, to rise up into his noble soulful
melody. Meyerbeer, on the other hand, wanted a huge, parti-coloured,
historico-romantic, satanico-pious, dogmatico-lewd, sancto-nonsensical,
mystico-daring, sentimentally roguish, stagy conglomeration of all sorts,
in order to provide him with the occasion for inventing fearfully curious
music which, however, could never prove successful in application, in
consequence of the natural thickness of his musical skin.




So this is talking about some “roguish” activity — as Mick notes, alluding to a thieving figure from classical mythology who used tricks to deceive his neighbors.



Seems pretty roguish to me.






share|improve this answer

























  • Yes, it was Wagner who said it. My mistake. Thank you so much!

    – kimweonill
    Aug 4 at 6:58















12














The quote is not Berlioz but from Wagner’s book-length essay “Oper und Drama” (Opera and Drama). Wagner wrote it in 1851, and it was published the following year in Leipzig.



Your text is just one translation, the one that runs:




Weber wanted a Drama that could pass with all its members, with every scenic
nuance, into his noble, soulful Melody: — Meyerbeer, on the contrary,
wanted a monstrous piebald, historico-romantic, diabolico-religious,
fanatico-libidinous, sacro-frivolous, mysterio-criminal,
autolyco-sentimental dramatic hotch-potch, therein to find material for a
curious chimeric music, — a want which, owing to the indomitable buckram
of his musical temperament, could never be quite suitably supplied.




But here’s another, this time from Edwin Evan’s 1913 translation, where the translator has seized on different wording here:




Weber wanted a libretto of such character as to enable it, at all times and
with every scenic shade of colouring, to rise up into his noble soulful
melody. Meyerbeer, on the other hand, wanted a huge, parti-coloured,
historico-romantic, satanico-pious, dogmatico-lewd, sancto-nonsensical,
mystico-daring, sentimentally roguish, stagy conglomeration of all sorts,
in order to provide him with the occasion for inventing fearfully curious
music which, however, could never prove successful in application, in
consequence of the natural thickness of his musical skin.




So this is talking about some “roguish” activity — as Mick notes, alluding to a thieving figure from classical mythology who used tricks to deceive his neighbors.



Seems pretty roguish to me.






share|improve this answer

























  • Yes, it was Wagner who said it. My mistake. Thank you so much!

    – kimweonill
    Aug 4 at 6:58













12












12








12







The quote is not Berlioz but from Wagner’s book-length essay “Oper und Drama” (Opera and Drama). Wagner wrote it in 1851, and it was published the following year in Leipzig.



Your text is just one translation, the one that runs:




Weber wanted a Drama that could pass with all its members, with every scenic
nuance, into his noble, soulful Melody: — Meyerbeer, on the contrary,
wanted a monstrous piebald, historico-romantic, diabolico-religious,
fanatico-libidinous, sacro-frivolous, mysterio-criminal,
autolyco-sentimental dramatic hotch-potch, therein to find material for a
curious chimeric music, — a want which, owing to the indomitable buckram
of his musical temperament, could never be quite suitably supplied.




But here’s another, this time from Edwin Evan’s 1913 translation, where the translator has seized on different wording here:




Weber wanted a libretto of such character as to enable it, at all times and
with every scenic shade of colouring, to rise up into his noble soulful
melody. Meyerbeer, on the other hand, wanted a huge, parti-coloured,
historico-romantic, satanico-pious, dogmatico-lewd, sancto-nonsensical,
mystico-daring, sentimentally roguish, stagy conglomeration of all sorts,
in order to provide him with the occasion for inventing fearfully curious
music which, however, could never prove successful in application, in
consequence of the natural thickness of his musical skin.




So this is talking about some “roguish” activity — as Mick notes, alluding to a thieving figure from classical mythology who used tricks to deceive his neighbors.



Seems pretty roguish to me.






share|improve this answer













The quote is not Berlioz but from Wagner’s book-length essay “Oper und Drama” (Opera and Drama). Wagner wrote it in 1851, and it was published the following year in Leipzig.



Your text is just one translation, the one that runs:




Weber wanted a Drama that could pass with all its members, with every scenic
nuance, into his noble, soulful Melody: — Meyerbeer, on the contrary,
wanted a monstrous piebald, historico-romantic, diabolico-religious,
fanatico-libidinous, sacro-frivolous, mysterio-criminal,
autolyco-sentimental dramatic hotch-potch, therein to find material for a
curious chimeric music, — a want which, owing to the indomitable buckram
of his musical temperament, could never be quite suitably supplied.




But here’s another, this time from Edwin Evan’s 1913 translation, where the translator has seized on different wording here:




Weber wanted a libretto of such character as to enable it, at all times and
with every scenic shade of colouring, to rise up into his noble soulful
melody. Meyerbeer, on the other hand, wanted a huge, parti-coloured,
historico-romantic, satanico-pious, dogmatico-lewd, sancto-nonsensical,
mystico-daring, sentimentally roguish, stagy conglomeration of all sorts,
in order to provide him with the occasion for inventing fearfully curious
music which, however, could never prove successful in application, in
consequence of the natural thickness of his musical skin.




So this is talking about some “roguish” activity — as Mick notes, alluding to a thieving figure from classical mythology who used tricks to deceive his neighbors.



Seems pretty roguish to me.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered Aug 4 at 3:53









tchristtchrist

111k30 gold badges303 silver badges483 bronze badges




111k30 gold badges303 silver badges483 bronze badges















  • Yes, it was Wagner who said it. My mistake. Thank you so much!

    – kimweonill
    Aug 4 at 6:58

















  • Yes, it was Wagner who said it. My mistake. Thank you so much!

    – kimweonill
    Aug 4 at 6:58
















Yes, it was Wagner who said it. My mistake. Thank you so much!

– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:58





Yes, it was Wagner who said it. My mistake. Thank you so much!

– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:58













29














Autolyco- From the Greek autolycus, meaning "the wolf itself" (i.e. savage, without sentiment).



Wikipedia: Autolycus



So, autolyco-sentimental is, perhaps, an oxymoron meaning both with and without sentiment.



Also:




Autolycus



Greek mythology



A thief who stole cattle from his neighbour Sisyphus and prevented him from recognizing them by making them invisible




Collins Dictionary






share|improve this answer






















  • 2





    Auto- self, lyco- wolf (as in lycanthropy, or being a werewolf - lyco- wolf, and anthropos, man). Etymology is such fun!

    – marcellothearcane
    Aug 4 at 6:33






  • 1





    Many thanks to both of you!!

    – kimweonill
    Aug 4 at 6:58











  • @marcellothearcane The translator took the German for 'thieving/roguish/scoundrel' and chose the mythological representative name. Whether that actual name's etymology really implies in all its uses 'thieving' is up to classicists.

    – Mitch
    Aug 4 at 20:31











  • @Mitch yes, my comment above was a little self-discovery regarding etymology. It could just as reasonably be someone that howls at themselves at night.

    – marcellothearcane
    Aug 4 at 21:09






  • 2





    I wouldn't say oxymoronic. It is perfectly possible to be sentimental about the times before one was sentimental, for that reason alone. It seems also appropriate if you miss a time when you were more ruthless or uncaring.

    – Stian Yttervik
    Aug 5 at 11:44















29














Autolyco- From the Greek autolycus, meaning "the wolf itself" (i.e. savage, without sentiment).



Wikipedia: Autolycus



So, autolyco-sentimental is, perhaps, an oxymoron meaning both with and without sentiment.



Also:




Autolycus



Greek mythology



A thief who stole cattle from his neighbour Sisyphus and prevented him from recognizing them by making them invisible




Collins Dictionary






share|improve this answer






















  • 2





    Auto- self, lyco- wolf (as in lycanthropy, or being a werewolf - lyco- wolf, and anthropos, man). Etymology is such fun!

    – marcellothearcane
    Aug 4 at 6:33






  • 1





    Many thanks to both of you!!

    – kimweonill
    Aug 4 at 6:58











  • @marcellothearcane The translator took the German for 'thieving/roguish/scoundrel' and chose the mythological representative name. Whether that actual name's etymology really implies in all its uses 'thieving' is up to classicists.

    – Mitch
    Aug 4 at 20:31











  • @Mitch yes, my comment above was a little self-discovery regarding etymology. It could just as reasonably be someone that howls at themselves at night.

    – marcellothearcane
    Aug 4 at 21:09






  • 2





    I wouldn't say oxymoronic. It is perfectly possible to be sentimental about the times before one was sentimental, for that reason alone. It seems also appropriate if you miss a time when you were more ruthless or uncaring.

    – Stian Yttervik
    Aug 5 at 11:44













29












29








29







Autolyco- From the Greek autolycus, meaning "the wolf itself" (i.e. savage, without sentiment).



Wikipedia: Autolycus



So, autolyco-sentimental is, perhaps, an oxymoron meaning both with and without sentiment.



Also:




Autolycus



Greek mythology



A thief who stole cattle from his neighbour Sisyphus and prevented him from recognizing them by making them invisible




Collins Dictionary






share|improve this answer















Autolyco- From the Greek autolycus, meaning "the wolf itself" (i.e. savage, without sentiment).



Wikipedia: Autolycus



So, autolyco-sentimental is, perhaps, an oxymoron meaning both with and without sentiment.



Also:




Autolycus



Greek mythology



A thief who stole cattle from his neighbour Sisyphus and prevented him from recognizing them by making them invisible




Collins Dictionary







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Aug 4 at 3:53

























answered Aug 4 at 3:42









MickMick

8,9182 gold badges14 silver badges43 bronze badges




8,9182 gold badges14 silver badges43 bronze badges










  • 2





    Auto- self, lyco- wolf (as in lycanthropy, or being a werewolf - lyco- wolf, and anthropos, man). Etymology is such fun!

    – marcellothearcane
    Aug 4 at 6:33






  • 1





    Many thanks to both of you!!

    – kimweonill
    Aug 4 at 6:58











  • @marcellothearcane The translator took the German for 'thieving/roguish/scoundrel' and chose the mythological representative name. Whether that actual name's etymology really implies in all its uses 'thieving' is up to classicists.

    – Mitch
    Aug 4 at 20:31











  • @Mitch yes, my comment above was a little self-discovery regarding etymology. It could just as reasonably be someone that howls at themselves at night.

    – marcellothearcane
    Aug 4 at 21:09






  • 2





    I wouldn't say oxymoronic. It is perfectly possible to be sentimental about the times before one was sentimental, for that reason alone. It seems also appropriate if you miss a time when you were more ruthless or uncaring.

    – Stian Yttervik
    Aug 5 at 11:44












  • 2





    Auto- self, lyco- wolf (as in lycanthropy, or being a werewolf - lyco- wolf, and anthropos, man). Etymology is such fun!

    – marcellothearcane
    Aug 4 at 6:33






  • 1





    Many thanks to both of you!!

    – kimweonill
    Aug 4 at 6:58











  • @marcellothearcane The translator took the German for 'thieving/roguish/scoundrel' and chose the mythological representative name. Whether that actual name's etymology really implies in all its uses 'thieving' is up to classicists.

    – Mitch
    Aug 4 at 20:31











  • @Mitch yes, my comment above was a little self-discovery regarding etymology. It could just as reasonably be someone that howls at themselves at night.

    – marcellothearcane
    Aug 4 at 21:09






  • 2





    I wouldn't say oxymoronic. It is perfectly possible to be sentimental about the times before one was sentimental, for that reason alone. It seems also appropriate if you miss a time when you were more ruthless or uncaring.

    – Stian Yttervik
    Aug 5 at 11:44







2




2





Auto- self, lyco- wolf (as in lycanthropy, or being a werewolf - lyco- wolf, and anthropos, man). Etymology is such fun!

– marcellothearcane
Aug 4 at 6:33





Auto- self, lyco- wolf (as in lycanthropy, or being a werewolf - lyco- wolf, and anthropos, man). Etymology is such fun!

– marcellothearcane
Aug 4 at 6:33




1




1





Many thanks to both of you!!

– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:58





Many thanks to both of you!!

– kimweonill
Aug 4 at 6:58













@marcellothearcane The translator took the German for 'thieving/roguish/scoundrel' and chose the mythological representative name. Whether that actual name's etymology really implies in all its uses 'thieving' is up to classicists.

– Mitch
Aug 4 at 20:31





@marcellothearcane The translator took the German for 'thieving/roguish/scoundrel' and chose the mythological representative name. Whether that actual name's etymology really implies in all its uses 'thieving' is up to classicists.

– Mitch
Aug 4 at 20:31













@Mitch yes, my comment above was a little self-discovery regarding etymology. It could just as reasonably be someone that howls at themselves at night.

– marcellothearcane
Aug 4 at 21:09





@Mitch yes, my comment above was a little self-discovery regarding etymology. It could just as reasonably be someone that howls at themselves at night.

– marcellothearcane
Aug 4 at 21:09




2




2





I wouldn't say oxymoronic. It is perfectly possible to be sentimental about the times before one was sentimental, for that reason alone. It seems also appropriate if you miss a time when you were more ruthless or uncaring.

– Stian Yttervik
Aug 5 at 11:44





I wouldn't say oxymoronic. It is perfectly possible to be sentimental about the times before one was sentimental, for that reason alone. It seems also appropriate if you miss a time when you were more ruthless or uncaring.

– Stian Yttervik
Aug 5 at 11:44











12














Completing @tchrist's answer (since I'm not able to comment), here is a quote from the original, which you can read in its entirety here:




Weber
wollte ein Drama hergestellt haben, das überall, mit jeder szenischen
Nuance in seine edle, seelenvolle Melodie aufzugehen vermochte –
Meyerbeer wollte dagegen ein ungeheuer buntscheckiges,
historisch-romantisches, teuflisch-religiöses, bigott-wollüstiges,
frivol-heiliges, geheimnisvoll-freches, sentimental-gaunerisches,
dramatisches Allerlei haben, um an ihm erst Stoff zum Auffinden einer
ungeheuer kuriosen Musik zu gewinnen – was ihm wegen des unbesieglichen
Leders seines eigentlichen musikalischen Naturelles wiederum nie
wirklich recht gelingen wollte.




I'm not a native speaker of either English or German, but it's obvious that both translations are way off the mark -- the original, while trite, is not so heavy, and has no made-up words. "Gauner" is very common term for a small criminal.



The translation also fails to convey the not so subtle dog-whistling (playing on the fact that Meyerbeer was a Jew).






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    Keep this up and you'll be able to comment in no time.

    – Mr Lister
    Aug 4 at 14:45






  • 3





    1. Not trite. Other than historisch-romantisch, the hyphenated adjectives are all absurd nonce words, i.e., made up, accentuating the random, chaotic relationship of text and music Wagner imputes to Meyerbeer. 2. A series of eight adjectives with all but two hyphenated compounds is heavy in any language. This sentence is a translator's nightmare. I'm not sure where you're hearing the dog whistle, but a bit earlier in this chapter, Wagner blandly states that as a Jew, Meyerbeer had no true native language and thus no feel for a libretto. Wagner's fullblown anti-Semitism comes later.

    – KarlG
    Aug 5 at 11:53















12














Completing @tchrist's answer (since I'm not able to comment), here is a quote from the original, which you can read in its entirety here:




Weber
wollte ein Drama hergestellt haben, das überall, mit jeder szenischen
Nuance in seine edle, seelenvolle Melodie aufzugehen vermochte –
Meyerbeer wollte dagegen ein ungeheuer buntscheckiges,
historisch-romantisches, teuflisch-religiöses, bigott-wollüstiges,
frivol-heiliges, geheimnisvoll-freches, sentimental-gaunerisches,
dramatisches Allerlei haben, um an ihm erst Stoff zum Auffinden einer
ungeheuer kuriosen Musik zu gewinnen – was ihm wegen des unbesieglichen
Leders seines eigentlichen musikalischen Naturelles wiederum nie
wirklich recht gelingen wollte.




I'm not a native speaker of either English or German, but it's obvious that both translations are way off the mark -- the original, while trite, is not so heavy, and has no made-up words. "Gauner" is very common term for a small criminal.



The translation also fails to convey the not so subtle dog-whistling (playing on the fact that Meyerbeer was a Jew).






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    Keep this up and you'll be able to comment in no time.

    – Mr Lister
    Aug 4 at 14:45






  • 3





    1. Not trite. Other than historisch-romantisch, the hyphenated adjectives are all absurd nonce words, i.e., made up, accentuating the random, chaotic relationship of text and music Wagner imputes to Meyerbeer. 2. A series of eight adjectives with all but two hyphenated compounds is heavy in any language. This sentence is a translator's nightmare. I'm not sure where you're hearing the dog whistle, but a bit earlier in this chapter, Wagner blandly states that as a Jew, Meyerbeer had no true native language and thus no feel for a libretto. Wagner's fullblown anti-Semitism comes later.

    – KarlG
    Aug 5 at 11:53













12












12








12







Completing @tchrist's answer (since I'm not able to comment), here is a quote from the original, which you can read in its entirety here:




Weber
wollte ein Drama hergestellt haben, das überall, mit jeder szenischen
Nuance in seine edle, seelenvolle Melodie aufzugehen vermochte –
Meyerbeer wollte dagegen ein ungeheuer buntscheckiges,
historisch-romantisches, teuflisch-religiöses, bigott-wollüstiges,
frivol-heiliges, geheimnisvoll-freches, sentimental-gaunerisches,
dramatisches Allerlei haben, um an ihm erst Stoff zum Auffinden einer
ungeheuer kuriosen Musik zu gewinnen – was ihm wegen des unbesieglichen
Leders seines eigentlichen musikalischen Naturelles wiederum nie
wirklich recht gelingen wollte.




I'm not a native speaker of either English or German, but it's obvious that both translations are way off the mark -- the original, while trite, is not so heavy, and has no made-up words. "Gauner" is very common term for a small criminal.



The translation also fails to convey the not so subtle dog-whistling (playing on the fact that Meyerbeer was a Jew).






share|improve this answer













Completing @tchrist's answer (since I'm not able to comment), here is a quote from the original, which you can read in its entirety here:




Weber
wollte ein Drama hergestellt haben, das überall, mit jeder szenischen
Nuance in seine edle, seelenvolle Melodie aufzugehen vermochte –
Meyerbeer wollte dagegen ein ungeheuer buntscheckiges,
historisch-romantisches, teuflisch-religiöses, bigott-wollüstiges,
frivol-heiliges, geheimnisvoll-freches, sentimental-gaunerisches,
dramatisches Allerlei haben, um an ihm erst Stoff zum Auffinden einer
ungeheuer kuriosen Musik zu gewinnen – was ihm wegen des unbesieglichen
Leders seines eigentlichen musikalischen Naturelles wiederum nie
wirklich recht gelingen wollte.




I'm not a native speaker of either English or German, but it's obvious that both translations are way off the mark -- the original, while trite, is not so heavy, and has no made-up words. "Gauner" is very common term for a small criminal.



The translation also fails to convey the not so subtle dog-whistling (playing on the fact that Meyerbeer was a Jew).







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered Aug 4 at 13:45









Impudent SnobImpudent Snob

1372 bronze badges




1372 bronze badges










  • 1





    Keep this up and you'll be able to comment in no time.

    – Mr Lister
    Aug 4 at 14:45






  • 3





    1. Not trite. Other than historisch-romantisch, the hyphenated adjectives are all absurd nonce words, i.e., made up, accentuating the random, chaotic relationship of text and music Wagner imputes to Meyerbeer. 2. A series of eight adjectives with all but two hyphenated compounds is heavy in any language. This sentence is a translator's nightmare. I'm not sure where you're hearing the dog whistle, but a bit earlier in this chapter, Wagner blandly states that as a Jew, Meyerbeer had no true native language and thus no feel for a libretto. Wagner's fullblown anti-Semitism comes later.

    – KarlG
    Aug 5 at 11:53












  • 1





    Keep this up and you'll be able to comment in no time.

    – Mr Lister
    Aug 4 at 14:45






  • 3





    1. Not trite. Other than historisch-romantisch, the hyphenated adjectives are all absurd nonce words, i.e., made up, accentuating the random, chaotic relationship of text and music Wagner imputes to Meyerbeer. 2. A series of eight adjectives with all but two hyphenated compounds is heavy in any language. This sentence is a translator's nightmare. I'm not sure where you're hearing the dog whistle, but a bit earlier in this chapter, Wagner blandly states that as a Jew, Meyerbeer had no true native language and thus no feel for a libretto. Wagner's fullblown anti-Semitism comes later.

    – KarlG
    Aug 5 at 11:53







1




1





Keep this up and you'll be able to comment in no time.

– Mr Lister
Aug 4 at 14:45





Keep this up and you'll be able to comment in no time.

– Mr Lister
Aug 4 at 14:45




3




3





1. Not trite. Other than historisch-romantisch, the hyphenated adjectives are all absurd nonce words, i.e., made up, accentuating the random, chaotic relationship of text and music Wagner imputes to Meyerbeer. 2. A series of eight adjectives with all but two hyphenated compounds is heavy in any language. This sentence is a translator's nightmare. I'm not sure where you're hearing the dog whistle, but a bit earlier in this chapter, Wagner blandly states that as a Jew, Meyerbeer had no true native language and thus no feel for a libretto. Wagner's fullblown anti-Semitism comes later.

– KarlG
Aug 5 at 11:53





1. Not trite. Other than historisch-romantisch, the hyphenated adjectives are all absurd nonce words, i.e., made up, accentuating the random, chaotic relationship of text and music Wagner imputes to Meyerbeer. 2. A series of eight adjectives with all but two hyphenated compounds is heavy in any language. This sentence is a translator's nightmare. I'm not sure where you're hearing the dog whistle, but a bit earlier in this chapter, Wagner blandly states that as a Jew, Meyerbeer had no true native language and thus no feel for a libretto. Wagner's fullblown anti-Semitism comes later.

– KarlG
Aug 5 at 11:53

















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