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Why the following discrete type system,variable accumulator, is time invariant?
Time variant and Time Invariant SystemsSystem Properties; Linear, Causal, Time-Invariant, Stable?How to sketch the following discrete-time signal?Time Variant or Time-Invariant system?Is this system time invariant?Is the system $y(n)=x(n^2)$ time invariant?Why $y[n] = x[-n]$ is not time-invariant?Design a Discrete-Time SystemWhat is the relationship between the discrete time and continuous time variables?Eigen Function of Linear Time Invariant (LTI) System
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;
$begingroup$
$y[n]=Tx[n]=displaystylesum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k]$
it is some sort of moving summer which computes $n^textth$ output sample by adding all samples lying within length $n_0$ around some point $n$ on $k$ -axis (where k is dummy variable) so even if we shift input by amount $n_0$ the length of interval of summation remain unchanged which is same as if we're shifting output by $n_0$ from which it follows system is Time invariant but how do we prove it mathematically .
my work so far
shifting input by $n_0$ , i.e, $Tx[n-n_0]=displaystylesum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-n_0]$
now, $kto k+n_0$ then,
LHS$=displaystylesum_k=n-2n_0^n x[k]neq y[n-n_0]$
here i'm getting the answer Time variant. can anyone help ?
discrete-signals linear-systems time-domain
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$y[n]=Tx[n]=displaystylesum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k]$
it is some sort of moving summer which computes $n^textth$ output sample by adding all samples lying within length $n_0$ around some point $n$ on $k$ -axis (where k is dummy variable) so even if we shift input by amount $n_0$ the length of interval of summation remain unchanged which is same as if we're shifting output by $n_0$ from which it follows system is Time invariant but how do we prove it mathematically .
my work so far
shifting input by $n_0$ , i.e, $Tx[n-n_0]=displaystylesum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-n_0]$
now, $kto k+n_0$ then,
LHS$=displaystylesum_k=n-2n_0^n x[k]neq y[n-n_0]$
here i'm getting the answer Time variant. can anyone help ?
discrete-signals linear-systems time-domain
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
$y[n]=Tx[n]=displaystylesum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k]$
it is some sort of moving summer which computes $n^textth$ output sample by adding all samples lying within length $n_0$ around some point $n$ on $k$ -axis (where k is dummy variable) so even if we shift input by amount $n_0$ the length of interval of summation remain unchanged which is same as if we're shifting output by $n_0$ from which it follows system is Time invariant but how do we prove it mathematically .
my work so far
shifting input by $n_0$ , i.e, $Tx[n-n_0]=displaystylesum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-n_0]$
now, $kto k+n_0$ then,
LHS$=displaystylesum_k=n-2n_0^n x[k]neq y[n-n_0]$
here i'm getting the answer Time variant. can anyone help ?
discrete-signals linear-systems time-domain
$endgroup$
$y[n]=Tx[n]=displaystylesum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k]$
it is some sort of moving summer which computes $n^textth$ output sample by adding all samples lying within length $n_0$ around some point $n$ on $k$ -axis (where k is dummy variable) so even if we shift input by amount $n_0$ the length of interval of summation remain unchanged which is same as if we're shifting output by $n_0$ from which it follows system is Time invariant but how do we prove it mathematically .
my work so far
shifting input by $n_0$ , i.e, $Tx[n-n_0]=displaystylesum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-n_0]$
now, $kto k+n_0$ then,
LHS$=displaystylesum_k=n-2n_0^n x[k]neq y[n-n_0]$
here i'm getting the answer Time variant. can anyone help ?
discrete-signals linear-systems time-domain
discrete-signals linear-systems time-domain
edited Aug 4 at 7:44
Faraday Pathak
asked Aug 3 at 20:33
Faraday PathakFaraday Pathak
18710 bronze badges
18710 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
You are overloading the symbol $n$ which doesn't mean the same everywhere in your calculations. Instead, write down what the sequence of input values is and the corresponding sequence of output values when the input is $x$. DO NOT use the symbol $n$ anywhere ($n_0$ is OK to use). So, your answer should look like
beginalign
y[-2] &= cdots\
y[-1] &= cdots\
y[0] &= x[-n_0] + x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0]\
y[1] &= x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0+1]
endalign
etc.
Now, shift $x$ by $k$ places (say $k=1$ for starters) and call the result $hat x$. Repeat the above computation for the input $hat x$ and call the result $hat y$. Is $hat y$ the same as $y$ except shifted by $k$ places? Repeat for $k+1$ etc until you have managed to convince yourself that regardless of what $k$ you choose, shifting $x$ by $k$ places results in $y$ also shifting by $k$ places.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
+1 you are amazing
$endgroup$
– Faraday Pathak
Aug 4 at 7:42
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In addition to Dilip's hands on answer, let me correct the theoretical path that you wanted to follow but failed.
The input output relation of the system is given by :
$$ y[n] = T x[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k] tag1$$
First, shift the input $x[n]$, by integer $d$, denoted as
$$x_d[n] = x[n-d] tag2$$
and see its effect on the output $y[n]$; denoted as $y_d[n]$ :
$$ y_d[n] = Tx_d[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x_d[k] tag3 $$
Replace $x_d[n]$ with $x[n-d]$ and $x_d[k]$ with $x[k-d]$ according to Eq.2.
$$ y_d[n] = Tx[n-d] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] tag4 $$
Second, shift the output $y[n]$ by $d$ and see its effect on the sum:
$$y[n-d] = sum_k=n-d-n_0^n-d+n_0 x[k] tag5 $$
Now, make a manipulation of dummy summation index $k$ in either of Eqs. 4 or 5 to see that they are the same; i.e.,
For example, let $m = k+d$ and place it into Eq.5:
$$y[n-d] = sum_ m = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[m-d] tag6 $$
and simply reset the dummy variable of summation from $m$ back to $k$ in Eq.6, to convince yourself that Eq.6 becomes Eq.4:
$$y[n-d] = sum_ k = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] = y_d[n] tag7 $$
Finally, Eq.7 declares that $y[n-d] = y_d[n]$; the system is Time-Invariant.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
+1 nice finish .i mistook dummy variable for $n_0$. Your style matches with 'Oppenheim's DSP book'
$endgroup$
– Faraday Pathak
Aug 4 at 7:41
add a comment |
Your Answer
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2
active
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votes
$begingroup$
You are overloading the symbol $n$ which doesn't mean the same everywhere in your calculations. Instead, write down what the sequence of input values is and the corresponding sequence of output values when the input is $x$. DO NOT use the symbol $n$ anywhere ($n_0$ is OK to use). So, your answer should look like
beginalign
y[-2] &= cdots\
y[-1] &= cdots\
y[0] &= x[-n_0] + x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0]\
y[1] &= x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0+1]
endalign
etc.
Now, shift $x$ by $k$ places (say $k=1$ for starters) and call the result $hat x$. Repeat the above computation for the input $hat x$ and call the result $hat y$. Is $hat y$ the same as $y$ except shifted by $k$ places? Repeat for $k+1$ etc until you have managed to convince yourself that regardless of what $k$ you choose, shifting $x$ by $k$ places results in $y$ also shifting by $k$ places.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
+1 you are amazing
$endgroup$
– Faraday Pathak
Aug 4 at 7:42
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You are overloading the symbol $n$ which doesn't mean the same everywhere in your calculations. Instead, write down what the sequence of input values is and the corresponding sequence of output values when the input is $x$. DO NOT use the symbol $n$ anywhere ($n_0$ is OK to use). So, your answer should look like
beginalign
y[-2] &= cdots\
y[-1] &= cdots\
y[0] &= x[-n_0] + x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0]\
y[1] &= x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0+1]
endalign
etc.
Now, shift $x$ by $k$ places (say $k=1$ for starters) and call the result $hat x$. Repeat the above computation for the input $hat x$ and call the result $hat y$. Is $hat y$ the same as $y$ except shifted by $k$ places? Repeat for $k+1$ etc until you have managed to convince yourself that regardless of what $k$ you choose, shifting $x$ by $k$ places results in $y$ also shifting by $k$ places.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
+1 you are amazing
$endgroup$
– Faraday Pathak
Aug 4 at 7:42
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You are overloading the symbol $n$ which doesn't mean the same everywhere in your calculations. Instead, write down what the sequence of input values is and the corresponding sequence of output values when the input is $x$. DO NOT use the symbol $n$ anywhere ($n_0$ is OK to use). So, your answer should look like
beginalign
y[-2] &= cdots\
y[-1] &= cdots\
y[0] &= x[-n_0] + x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0]\
y[1] &= x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0+1]
endalign
etc.
Now, shift $x$ by $k$ places (say $k=1$ for starters) and call the result $hat x$. Repeat the above computation for the input $hat x$ and call the result $hat y$. Is $hat y$ the same as $y$ except shifted by $k$ places? Repeat for $k+1$ etc until you have managed to convince yourself that regardless of what $k$ you choose, shifting $x$ by $k$ places results in $y$ also shifting by $k$ places.
$endgroup$
You are overloading the symbol $n$ which doesn't mean the same everywhere in your calculations. Instead, write down what the sequence of input values is and the corresponding sequence of output values when the input is $x$. DO NOT use the symbol $n$ anywhere ($n_0$ is OK to use). So, your answer should look like
beginalign
y[-2] &= cdots\
y[-1] &= cdots\
y[0] &= x[-n_0] + x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0]\
y[1] &= x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0+1]
endalign
etc.
Now, shift $x$ by $k$ places (say $k=1$ for starters) and call the result $hat x$. Repeat the above computation for the input $hat x$ and call the result $hat y$. Is $hat y$ the same as $y$ except shifted by $k$ places? Repeat for $k+1$ etc until you have managed to convince yourself that regardless of what $k$ you choose, shifting $x$ by $k$ places results in $y$ also shifting by $k$ places.
answered Aug 3 at 21:17
Dilip SarwateDilip Sarwate
14.3k1 gold badge26 silver badges64 bronze badges
14.3k1 gold badge26 silver badges64 bronze badges
$begingroup$
+1 you are amazing
$endgroup$
– Faraday Pathak
Aug 4 at 7:42
add a comment |
$begingroup$
+1 you are amazing
$endgroup$
– Faraday Pathak
Aug 4 at 7:42
$begingroup$
+1 you are amazing
$endgroup$
– Faraday Pathak
Aug 4 at 7:42
$begingroup$
+1 you are amazing
$endgroup$
– Faraday Pathak
Aug 4 at 7:42
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In addition to Dilip's hands on answer, let me correct the theoretical path that you wanted to follow but failed.
The input output relation of the system is given by :
$$ y[n] = T x[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k] tag1$$
First, shift the input $x[n]$, by integer $d$, denoted as
$$x_d[n] = x[n-d] tag2$$
and see its effect on the output $y[n]$; denoted as $y_d[n]$ :
$$ y_d[n] = Tx_d[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x_d[k] tag3 $$
Replace $x_d[n]$ with $x[n-d]$ and $x_d[k]$ with $x[k-d]$ according to Eq.2.
$$ y_d[n] = Tx[n-d] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] tag4 $$
Second, shift the output $y[n]$ by $d$ and see its effect on the sum:
$$y[n-d] = sum_k=n-d-n_0^n-d+n_0 x[k] tag5 $$
Now, make a manipulation of dummy summation index $k$ in either of Eqs. 4 or 5 to see that they are the same; i.e.,
For example, let $m = k+d$ and place it into Eq.5:
$$y[n-d] = sum_ m = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[m-d] tag6 $$
and simply reset the dummy variable of summation from $m$ back to $k$ in Eq.6, to convince yourself that Eq.6 becomes Eq.4:
$$y[n-d] = sum_ k = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] = y_d[n] tag7 $$
Finally, Eq.7 declares that $y[n-d] = y_d[n]$; the system is Time-Invariant.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
+1 nice finish .i mistook dummy variable for $n_0$. Your style matches with 'Oppenheim's DSP book'
$endgroup$
– Faraday Pathak
Aug 4 at 7:41
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In addition to Dilip's hands on answer, let me correct the theoretical path that you wanted to follow but failed.
The input output relation of the system is given by :
$$ y[n] = T x[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k] tag1$$
First, shift the input $x[n]$, by integer $d$, denoted as
$$x_d[n] = x[n-d] tag2$$
and see its effect on the output $y[n]$; denoted as $y_d[n]$ :
$$ y_d[n] = Tx_d[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x_d[k] tag3 $$
Replace $x_d[n]$ with $x[n-d]$ and $x_d[k]$ with $x[k-d]$ according to Eq.2.
$$ y_d[n] = Tx[n-d] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] tag4 $$
Second, shift the output $y[n]$ by $d$ and see its effect on the sum:
$$y[n-d] = sum_k=n-d-n_0^n-d+n_0 x[k] tag5 $$
Now, make a manipulation of dummy summation index $k$ in either of Eqs. 4 or 5 to see that they are the same; i.e.,
For example, let $m = k+d$ and place it into Eq.5:
$$y[n-d] = sum_ m = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[m-d] tag6 $$
and simply reset the dummy variable of summation from $m$ back to $k$ in Eq.6, to convince yourself that Eq.6 becomes Eq.4:
$$y[n-d] = sum_ k = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] = y_d[n] tag7 $$
Finally, Eq.7 declares that $y[n-d] = y_d[n]$; the system is Time-Invariant.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
+1 nice finish .i mistook dummy variable for $n_0$. Your style matches with 'Oppenheim's DSP book'
$endgroup$
– Faraday Pathak
Aug 4 at 7:41
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In addition to Dilip's hands on answer, let me correct the theoretical path that you wanted to follow but failed.
The input output relation of the system is given by :
$$ y[n] = T x[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k] tag1$$
First, shift the input $x[n]$, by integer $d$, denoted as
$$x_d[n] = x[n-d] tag2$$
and see its effect on the output $y[n]$; denoted as $y_d[n]$ :
$$ y_d[n] = Tx_d[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x_d[k] tag3 $$
Replace $x_d[n]$ with $x[n-d]$ and $x_d[k]$ with $x[k-d]$ according to Eq.2.
$$ y_d[n] = Tx[n-d] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] tag4 $$
Second, shift the output $y[n]$ by $d$ and see its effect on the sum:
$$y[n-d] = sum_k=n-d-n_0^n-d+n_0 x[k] tag5 $$
Now, make a manipulation of dummy summation index $k$ in either of Eqs. 4 or 5 to see that they are the same; i.e.,
For example, let $m = k+d$ and place it into Eq.5:
$$y[n-d] = sum_ m = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[m-d] tag6 $$
and simply reset the dummy variable of summation from $m$ back to $k$ in Eq.6, to convince yourself that Eq.6 becomes Eq.4:
$$y[n-d] = sum_ k = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] = y_d[n] tag7 $$
Finally, Eq.7 declares that $y[n-d] = y_d[n]$; the system is Time-Invariant.
$endgroup$
In addition to Dilip's hands on answer, let me correct the theoretical path that you wanted to follow but failed.
The input output relation of the system is given by :
$$ y[n] = T x[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k] tag1$$
First, shift the input $x[n]$, by integer $d$, denoted as
$$x_d[n] = x[n-d] tag2$$
and see its effect on the output $y[n]$; denoted as $y_d[n]$ :
$$ y_d[n] = Tx_d[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x_d[k] tag3 $$
Replace $x_d[n]$ with $x[n-d]$ and $x_d[k]$ with $x[k-d]$ according to Eq.2.
$$ y_d[n] = Tx[n-d] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] tag4 $$
Second, shift the output $y[n]$ by $d$ and see its effect on the sum:
$$y[n-d] = sum_k=n-d-n_0^n-d+n_0 x[k] tag5 $$
Now, make a manipulation of dummy summation index $k$ in either of Eqs. 4 or 5 to see that they are the same; i.e.,
For example, let $m = k+d$ and place it into Eq.5:
$$y[n-d] = sum_ m = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[m-d] tag6 $$
and simply reset the dummy variable of summation from $m$ back to $k$ in Eq.6, to convince yourself that Eq.6 becomes Eq.4:
$$y[n-d] = sum_ k = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] = y_d[n] tag7 $$
Finally, Eq.7 declares that $y[n-d] = y_d[n]$; the system is Time-Invariant.
answered Aug 3 at 23:38
Fat32Fat32
17.6k3 gold badges14 silver badges34 bronze badges
17.6k3 gold badges14 silver badges34 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
+1 nice finish .i mistook dummy variable for $n_0$. Your style matches with 'Oppenheim's DSP book'
$endgroup$
– Faraday Pathak
Aug 4 at 7:41
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
+1 nice finish .i mistook dummy variable for $n_0$. Your style matches with 'Oppenheim's DSP book'
$endgroup$
– Faraday Pathak
Aug 4 at 7:41
1
1
$begingroup$
+1 nice finish .i mistook dummy variable for $n_0$. Your style matches with 'Oppenheim's DSP book'
$endgroup$
– Faraday Pathak
Aug 4 at 7:41
$begingroup$
+1 nice finish .i mistook dummy variable for $n_0$. Your style matches with 'Oppenheim's DSP book'
$endgroup$
– Faraday Pathak
Aug 4 at 7:41
add a comment |
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Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown