Why the following discrete type system,variable accumulator, is time invariant?Time variant and Time Invariant SystemsSystem Properties; Linear, Causal, Time-Invariant, Stable?How to sketch the following discrete-time signal?Time Variant or Time-Invariant system?Is this system time invariant?Is the system $y(n)=x(n^2)$ time invariant?Why $y[n] = x[-n]$ is not time-invariant?Design a Discrete-Time SystemWhat is the relationship between the discrete time and continuous time variables?Eigen Function of Linear Time Invariant (LTI) System

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Why the following discrete type system,variable accumulator, is time invariant?


Time variant and Time Invariant SystemsSystem Properties; Linear, Causal, Time-Invariant, Stable?How to sketch the following discrete-time signal?Time Variant or Time-Invariant system?Is this system time invariant?Is the system $y(n)=x(n^2)$ time invariant?Why $y[n] = x[-n]$ is not time-invariant?Design a Discrete-Time SystemWhat is the relationship between the discrete time and continuous time variables?Eigen Function of Linear Time Invariant (LTI) System






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








1












$begingroup$


$y[n]=Tx[n]=displaystylesum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k]$



it is some sort of moving summer which computes $n^textth$ output sample by adding all samples lying within length $n_0$ around some point $n$ on $k$ -axis (where k is dummy variable) so even if we shift input by amount $n_0$ the length of interval of summation remain unchanged which is same as if we're shifting output by $n_0$ from which it follows system is Time invariant but how do we prove it mathematically .



my work so far



shifting input by $n_0$ , i.e, $Tx[n-n_0]=displaystylesum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-n_0]$



now, $kto k+n_0$ then,



LHS$=displaystylesum_k=n-2n_0^n x[k]neq y[n-n_0]$



here i'm getting the answer Time variant. can anyone help ?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




















    1












    $begingroup$


    $y[n]=Tx[n]=displaystylesum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k]$



    it is some sort of moving summer which computes $n^textth$ output sample by adding all samples lying within length $n_0$ around some point $n$ on $k$ -axis (where k is dummy variable) so even if we shift input by amount $n_0$ the length of interval of summation remain unchanged which is same as if we're shifting output by $n_0$ from which it follows system is Time invariant but how do we prove it mathematically .



    my work so far



    shifting input by $n_0$ , i.e, $Tx[n-n_0]=displaystylesum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-n_0]$



    now, $kto k+n_0$ then,



    LHS$=displaystylesum_k=n-2n_0^n x[k]neq y[n-n_0]$



    here i'm getting the answer Time variant. can anyone help ?










    share|improve this question











    $endgroup$
















      1












      1








      1


      2



      $begingroup$


      $y[n]=Tx[n]=displaystylesum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k]$



      it is some sort of moving summer which computes $n^textth$ output sample by adding all samples lying within length $n_0$ around some point $n$ on $k$ -axis (where k is dummy variable) so even if we shift input by amount $n_0$ the length of interval of summation remain unchanged which is same as if we're shifting output by $n_0$ from which it follows system is Time invariant but how do we prove it mathematically .



      my work so far



      shifting input by $n_0$ , i.e, $Tx[n-n_0]=displaystylesum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-n_0]$



      now, $kto k+n_0$ then,



      LHS$=displaystylesum_k=n-2n_0^n x[k]neq y[n-n_0]$



      here i'm getting the answer Time variant. can anyone help ?










      share|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      $y[n]=Tx[n]=displaystylesum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k]$



      it is some sort of moving summer which computes $n^textth$ output sample by adding all samples lying within length $n_0$ around some point $n$ on $k$ -axis (where k is dummy variable) so even if we shift input by amount $n_0$ the length of interval of summation remain unchanged which is same as if we're shifting output by $n_0$ from which it follows system is Time invariant but how do we prove it mathematically .



      my work so far



      shifting input by $n_0$ , i.e, $Tx[n-n_0]=displaystylesum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-n_0]$



      now, $kto k+n_0$ then,



      LHS$=displaystylesum_k=n-2n_0^n x[k]neq y[n-n_0]$



      here i'm getting the answer Time variant. can anyone help ?







      discrete-signals linear-systems time-domain






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited Aug 4 at 7:44







      Faraday Pathak

















      asked Aug 3 at 20:33









      Faraday PathakFaraday Pathak

      18710 bronze badges




      18710 bronze badges























          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          2












          $begingroup$

          You are overloading the symbol $n$ which doesn't mean the same everywhere in your calculations. Instead, write down what the sequence of input values is and the corresponding sequence of output values when the input is $x$. DO NOT use the symbol $n$ anywhere ($n_0$ is OK to use). So, your answer should look like



          beginalign
          y[-2] &= cdots\
          y[-1] &= cdots\
          y[0] &= x[-n_0] + x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0]\
          y[1] &= x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0+1]
          endalign

          etc.



          Now, shift $x$ by $k$ places (say $k=1$ for starters) and call the result $hat x$. Repeat the above computation for the input $hat x$ and call the result $hat y$. Is $hat y$ the same as $y$ except shifted by $k$ places? Repeat for $k+1$ etc until you have managed to convince yourself that regardless of what $k$ you choose, shifting $x$ by $k$ places results in $y$ also shifting by $k$ places.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$














          • $begingroup$
            +1 you are amazing
            $endgroup$
            – Faraday Pathak
            Aug 4 at 7:42


















          2












          $begingroup$

          In addition to Dilip's hands on answer, let me correct the theoretical path that you wanted to follow but failed.



          The input output relation of the system is given by :



          $$ y[n] = T x[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k] tag1$$



          First, shift the input $x[n]$, by integer $d$, denoted as
          $$x_d[n] = x[n-d] tag2$$
          and see its effect on the output $y[n]$; denoted as $y_d[n]$ :



          $$ y_d[n] = Tx_d[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x_d[k] tag3 $$



          Replace $x_d[n]$ with $x[n-d]$ and $x_d[k]$ with $x[k-d]$ according to Eq.2.
          $$ y_d[n] = Tx[n-d] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] tag4 $$



          Second, shift the output $y[n]$ by $d$ and see its effect on the sum:



          $$y[n-d] = sum_k=n-d-n_0^n-d+n_0 x[k] tag5 $$



          Now, make a manipulation of dummy summation index $k$ in either of Eqs. 4 or 5 to see that they are the same; i.e.,



          For example, let $m = k+d$ and place it into Eq.5:
          $$y[n-d] = sum_ m = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[m-d] tag6 $$



          and simply reset the dummy variable of summation from $m$ back to $k$ in Eq.6, to convince yourself that Eq.6 becomes Eq.4:



          $$y[n-d] = sum_ k = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] = y_d[n] tag7 $$



          Finally, Eq.7 declares that $y[n-d] = y_d[n]$; the system is Time-Invariant.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$










          • 1




            $begingroup$
            +1 nice finish .i mistook dummy variable for $n_0$. Your style matches with 'Oppenheim's DSP book'
            $endgroup$
            – Faraday Pathak
            Aug 4 at 7:41














          Your Answer








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          2 Answers
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          active

          oldest

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          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          2












          $begingroup$

          You are overloading the symbol $n$ which doesn't mean the same everywhere in your calculations. Instead, write down what the sequence of input values is and the corresponding sequence of output values when the input is $x$. DO NOT use the symbol $n$ anywhere ($n_0$ is OK to use). So, your answer should look like



          beginalign
          y[-2] &= cdots\
          y[-1] &= cdots\
          y[0] &= x[-n_0] + x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0]\
          y[1] &= x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0+1]
          endalign

          etc.



          Now, shift $x$ by $k$ places (say $k=1$ for starters) and call the result $hat x$. Repeat the above computation for the input $hat x$ and call the result $hat y$. Is $hat y$ the same as $y$ except shifted by $k$ places? Repeat for $k+1$ etc until you have managed to convince yourself that regardless of what $k$ you choose, shifting $x$ by $k$ places results in $y$ also shifting by $k$ places.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$














          • $begingroup$
            +1 you are amazing
            $endgroup$
            – Faraday Pathak
            Aug 4 at 7:42















          2












          $begingroup$

          You are overloading the symbol $n$ which doesn't mean the same everywhere in your calculations. Instead, write down what the sequence of input values is and the corresponding sequence of output values when the input is $x$. DO NOT use the symbol $n$ anywhere ($n_0$ is OK to use). So, your answer should look like



          beginalign
          y[-2] &= cdots\
          y[-1] &= cdots\
          y[0] &= x[-n_0] + x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0]\
          y[1] &= x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0+1]
          endalign

          etc.



          Now, shift $x$ by $k$ places (say $k=1$ for starters) and call the result $hat x$. Repeat the above computation for the input $hat x$ and call the result $hat y$. Is $hat y$ the same as $y$ except shifted by $k$ places? Repeat for $k+1$ etc until you have managed to convince yourself that regardless of what $k$ you choose, shifting $x$ by $k$ places results in $y$ also shifting by $k$ places.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$














          • $begingroup$
            +1 you are amazing
            $endgroup$
            – Faraday Pathak
            Aug 4 at 7:42













          2












          2








          2





          $begingroup$

          You are overloading the symbol $n$ which doesn't mean the same everywhere in your calculations. Instead, write down what the sequence of input values is and the corresponding sequence of output values when the input is $x$. DO NOT use the symbol $n$ anywhere ($n_0$ is OK to use). So, your answer should look like



          beginalign
          y[-2] &= cdots\
          y[-1] &= cdots\
          y[0] &= x[-n_0] + x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0]\
          y[1] &= x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0+1]
          endalign

          etc.



          Now, shift $x$ by $k$ places (say $k=1$ for starters) and call the result $hat x$. Repeat the above computation for the input $hat x$ and call the result $hat y$. Is $hat y$ the same as $y$ except shifted by $k$ places? Repeat for $k+1$ etc until you have managed to convince yourself that regardless of what $k$ you choose, shifting $x$ by $k$ places results in $y$ also shifting by $k$ places.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          You are overloading the symbol $n$ which doesn't mean the same everywhere in your calculations. Instead, write down what the sequence of input values is and the corresponding sequence of output values when the input is $x$. DO NOT use the symbol $n$ anywhere ($n_0$ is OK to use). So, your answer should look like



          beginalign
          y[-2] &= cdots\
          y[-1] &= cdots\
          y[0] &= x[-n_0] + x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0]\
          y[1] &= x[-n_0+1] + cdots + x[0] + x[1] + cdots x[n_0+1]
          endalign

          etc.



          Now, shift $x$ by $k$ places (say $k=1$ for starters) and call the result $hat x$. Repeat the above computation for the input $hat x$ and call the result $hat y$. Is $hat y$ the same as $y$ except shifted by $k$ places? Repeat for $k+1$ etc until you have managed to convince yourself that regardless of what $k$ you choose, shifting $x$ by $k$ places results in $y$ also shifting by $k$ places.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered Aug 3 at 21:17









          Dilip SarwateDilip Sarwate

          14.3k1 gold badge26 silver badges64 bronze badges




          14.3k1 gold badge26 silver badges64 bronze badges














          • $begingroup$
            +1 you are amazing
            $endgroup$
            – Faraday Pathak
            Aug 4 at 7:42
















          • $begingroup$
            +1 you are amazing
            $endgroup$
            – Faraday Pathak
            Aug 4 at 7:42















          $begingroup$
          +1 you are amazing
          $endgroup$
          – Faraday Pathak
          Aug 4 at 7:42




          $begingroup$
          +1 you are amazing
          $endgroup$
          – Faraday Pathak
          Aug 4 at 7:42













          2












          $begingroup$

          In addition to Dilip's hands on answer, let me correct the theoretical path that you wanted to follow but failed.



          The input output relation of the system is given by :



          $$ y[n] = T x[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k] tag1$$



          First, shift the input $x[n]$, by integer $d$, denoted as
          $$x_d[n] = x[n-d] tag2$$
          and see its effect on the output $y[n]$; denoted as $y_d[n]$ :



          $$ y_d[n] = Tx_d[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x_d[k] tag3 $$



          Replace $x_d[n]$ with $x[n-d]$ and $x_d[k]$ with $x[k-d]$ according to Eq.2.
          $$ y_d[n] = Tx[n-d] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] tag4 $$



          Second, shift the output $y[n]$ by $d$ and see its effect on the sum:



          $$y[n-d] = sum_k=n-d-n_0^n-d+n_0 x[k] tag5 $$



          Now, make a manipulation of dummy summation index $k$ in either of Eqs. 4 or 5 to see that they are the same; i.e.,



          For example, let $m = k+d$ and place it into Eq.5:
          $$y[n-d] = sum_ m = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[m-d] tag6 $$



          and simply reset the dummy variable of summation from $m$ back to $k$ in Eq.6, to convince yourself that Eq.6 becomes Eq.4:



          $$y[n-d] = sum_ k = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] = y_d[n] tag7 $$



          Finally, Eq.7 declares that $y[n-d] = y_d[n]$; the system is Time-Invariant.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$










          • 1




            $begingroup$
            +1 nice finish .i mistook dummy variable for $n_0$. Your style matches with 'Oppenheim's DSP book'
            $endgroup$
            – Faraday Pathak
            Aug 4 at 7:41
















          2












          $begingroup$

          In addition to Dilip's hands on answer, let me correct the theoretical path that you wanted to follow but failed.



          The input output relation of the system is given by :



          $$ y[n] = T x[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k] tag1$$



          First, shift the input $x[n]$, by integer $d$, denoted as
          $$x_d[n] = x[n-d] tag2$$
          and see its effect on the output $y[n]$; denoted as $y_d[n]$ :



          $$ y_d[n] = Tx_d[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x_d[k] tag3 $$



          Replace $x_d[n]$ with $x[n-d]$ and $x_d[k]$ with $x[k-d]$ according to Eq.2.
          $$ y_d[n] = Tx[n-d] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] tag4 $$



          Second, shift the output $y[n]$ by $d$ and see its effect on the sum:



          $$y[n-d] = sum_k=n-d-n_0^n-d+n_0 x[k] tag5 $$



          Now, make a manipulation of dummy summation index $k$ in either of Eqs. 4 or 5 to see that they are the same; i.e.,



          For example, let $m = k+d$ and place it into Eq.5:
          $$y[n-d] = sum_ m = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[m-d] tag6 $$



          and simply reset the dummy variable of summation from $m$ back to $k$ in Eq.6, to convince yourself that Eq.6 becomes Eq.4:



          $$y[n-d] = sum_ k = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] = y_d[n] tag7 $$



          Finally, Eq.7 declares that $y[n-d] = y_d[n]$; the system is Time-Invariant.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$










          • 1




            $begingroup$
            +1 nice finish .i mistook dummy variable for $n_0$. Your style matches with 'Oppenheim's DSP book'
            $endgroup$
            – Faraday Pathak
            Aug 4 at 7:41














          2












          2








          2





          $begingroup$

          In addition to Dilip's hands on answer, let me correct the theoretical path that you wanted to follow but failed.



          The input output relation of the system is given by :



          $$ y[n] = T x[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k] tag1$$



          First, shift the input $x[n]$, by integer $d$, denoted as
          $$x_d[n] = x[n-d] tag2$$
          and see its effect on the output $y[n]$; denoted as $y_d[n]$ :



          $$ y_d[n] = Tx_d[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x_d[k] tag3 $$



          Replace $x_d[n]$ with $x[n-d]$ and $x_d[k]$ with $x[k-d]$ according to Eq.2.
          $$ y_d[n] = Tx[n-d] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] tag4 $$



          Second, shift the output $y[n]$ by $d$ and see its effect on the sum:



          $$y[n-d] = sum_k=n-d-n_0^n-d+n_0 x[k] tag5 $$



          Now, make a manipulation of dummy summation index $k$ in either of Eqs. 4 or 5 to see that they are the same; i.e.,



          For example, let $m = k+d$ and place it into Eq.5:
          $$y[n-d] = sum_ m = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[m-d] tag6 $$



          and simply reset the dummy variable of summation from $m$ back to $k$ in Eq.6, to convince yourself that Eq.6 becomes Eq.4:



          $$y[n-d] = sum_ k = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] = y_d[n] tag7 $$



          Finally, Eq.7 declares that $y[n-d] = y_d[n]$; the system is Time-Invariant.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          In addition to Dilip's hands on answer, let me correct the theoretical path that you wanted to follow but failed.



          The input output relation of the system is given by :



          $$ y[n] = T x[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k] tag1$$



          First, shift the input $x[n]$, by integer $d$, denoted as
          $$x_d[n] = x[n-d] tag2$$
          and see its effect on the output $y[n]$; denoted as $y_d[n]$ :



          $$ y_d[n] = Tx_d[n] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x_d[k] tag3 $$



          Replace $x_d[n]$ with $x[n-d]$ and $x_d[k]$ with $x[k-d]$ according to Eq.2.
          $$ y_d[n] = Tx[n-d] = sum_k=n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] tag4 $$



          Second, shift the output $y[n]$ by $d$ and see its effect on the sum:



          $$y[n-d] = sum_k=n-d-n_0^n-d+n_0 x[k] tag5 $$



          Now, make a manipulation of dummy summation index $k$ in either of Eqs. 4 or 5 to see that they are the same; i.e.,



          For example, let $m = k+d$ and place it into Eq.5:
          $$y[n-d] = sum_ m = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[m-d] tag6 $$



          and simply reset the dummy variable of summation from $m$ back to $k$ in Eq.6, to convince yourself that Eq.6 becomes Eq.4:



          $$y[n-d] = sum_ k = n-n_0^n+n_0 x[k-d] = y_d[n] tag7 $$



          Finally, Eq.7 declares that $y[n-d] = y_d[n]$; the system is Time-Invariant.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered Aug 3 at 23:38









          Fat32Fat32

          17.6k3 gold badges14 silver badges34 bronze badges




          17.6k3 gold badges14 silver badges34 bronze badges










          • 1




            $begingroup$
            +1 nice finish .i mistook dummy variable for $n_0$. Your style matches with 'Oppenheim's DSP book'
            $endgroup$
            – Faraday Pathak
            Aug 4 at 7:41













          • 1




            $begingroup$
            +1 nice finish .i mistook dummy variable for $n_0$. Your style matches with 'Oppenheim's DSP book'
            $endgroup$
            – Faraday Pathak
            Aug 4 at 7:41








          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          +1 nice finish .i mistook dummy variable for $n_0$. Your style matches with 'Oppenheim's DSP book'
          $endgroup$
          – Faraday Pathak
          Aug 4 at 7:41





          $begingroup$
          +1 nice finish .i mistook dummy variable for $n_0$. Your style matches with 'Oppenheim's DSP book'
          $endgroup$
          – Faraday Pathak
          Aug 4 at 7:41


















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