A criterion for finite abelian group to embed into a symmetric groupSubgroups of a finite abelian groupLooking for deterministic criteria to generate the symmetric group?What is the smallest $n$ such that $Gle S_n$?Minimal generation for finite abelian groupsNormalizers in symmetric groupsRecovering a group from its number of symmetric embeddings?The maximal possible rank of a subgroup of a product of special linear groupsAbelian group of finite rankExterior Powers of finite abelian groupA criterion for determining simple groups

A criterion for finite abelian group to embed into a symmetric group


Subgroups of a finite abelian groupLooking for deterministic criteria to generate the symmetric group?What is the smallest $n$ such that $Gle S_n$?Minimal generation for finite abelian groupsNormalizers in symmetric groupsRecovering a group from its number of symmetric embeddings?The maximal possible rank of a subgroup of a product of special linear groupsAbelian group of finite rankExterior Powers of finite abelian groupA criterion for determining simple groups













10












$begingroup$


Let $G$ be a finite abelian group. Write $Gapprox mathbbZ/p_1^i_1mathbbZtimesdots mathbbZ/p_m^i_mmathbbZ$, with $mge 0$, $p_1,dots,p_m$ primes (not necessarily distinct) and $i_kge 1$ for all $k$.



For $nge 0$, is it true that there is an injective homomorphism $Grightarrow S_n$ if and only if $p_1^i_1+dots+p_m^i_mleq n$?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    meta.mathoverflow.net/questions/4200/flood-of-similar-new-users
    $endgroup$
    – user126532
    Aug 4 at 1:29






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    If you intend the primes $p_i$ to be distinct, then the group you describe is cyclic. If you allow repetition of primes, then you will pick up all finite Abelian groups.
    $endgroup$
    – Geoff Robinson
    Aug 4 at 10:35















10












$begingroup$


Let $G$ be a finite abelian group. Write $Gapprox mathbbZ/p_1^i_1mathbbZtimesdots mathbbZ/p_m^i_mmathbbZ$, with $mge 0$, $p_1,dots,p_m$ primes (not necessarily distinct) and $i_kge 1$ for all $k$.



For $nge 0$, is it true that there is an injective homomorphism $Grightarrow S_n$ if and only if $p_1^i_1+dots+p_m^i_mleq n$?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    meta.mathoverflow.net/questions/4200/flood-of-similar-new-users
    $endgroup$
    – user126532
    Aug 4 at 1:29






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    If you intend the primes $p_i$ to be distinct, then the group you describe is cyclic. If you allow repetition of primes, then you will pick up all finite Abelian groups.
    $endgroup$
    – Geoff Robinson
    Aug 4 at 10:35













10












10








10


2



$begingroup$


Let $G$ be a finite abelian group. Write $Gapprox mathbbZ/p_1^i_1mathbbZtimesdots mathbbZ/p_m^i_mmathbbZ$, with $mge 0$, $p_1,dots,p_m$ primes (not necessarily distinct) and $i_kge 1$ for all $k$.



For $nge 0$, is it true that there is an injective homomorphism $Grightarrow S_n$ if and only if $p_1^i_1+dots+p_m^i_mleq n$?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Let $G$ be a finite abelian group. Write $Gapprox mathbbZ/p_1^i_1mathbbZtimesdots mathbbZ/p_m^i_mmathbbZ$, with $mge 0$, $p_1,dots,p_m$ primes (not necessarily distinct) and $i_kge 1$ for all $k$.



For $nge 0$, is it true that there is an injective homomorphism $Grightarrow S_n$ if and only if $p_1^i_1+dots+p_m^i_mleq n$?







gr.group-theory finite-groups symmetric-groups






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Aug 5 at 11:20









YCor

31k4 gold badges95 silver badges147 bronze badges




31k4 gold badges95 silver badges147 bronze badges










asked Aug 3 at 21:17







user143954





















  • $begingroup$
    meta.mathoverflow.net/questions/4200/flood-of-similar-new-users
    $endgroup$
    – user126532
    Aug 4 at 1:29






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    If you intend the primes $p_i$ to be distinct, then the group you describe is cyclic. If you allow repetition of primes, then you will pick up all finite Abelian groups.
    $endgroup$
    – Geoff Robinson
    Aug 4 at 10:35
















  • $begingroup$
    meta.mathoverflow.net/questions/4200/flood-of-similar-new-users
    $endgroup$
    – user126532
    Aug 4 at 1:29






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    If you intend the primes $p_i$ to be distinct, then the group you describe is cyclic. If you allow repetition of primes, then you will pick up all finite Abelian groups.
    $endgroup$
    – Geoff Robinson
    Aug 4 at 10:35















$begingroup$
meta.mathoverflow.net/questions/4200/flood-of-similar-new-users
$endgroup$
– user126532
Aug 4 at 1:29




$begingroup$
meta.mathoverflow.net/questions/4200/flood-of-similar-new-users
$endgroup$
– user126532
Aug 4 at 1:29




3




3




$begingroup$
If you intend the primes $p_i$ to be distinct, then the group you describe is cyclic. If you allow repetition of primes, then you will pick up all finite Abelian groups.
$endgroup$
– Geoff Robinson
Aug 4 at 10:35




$begingroup$
If you intend the primes $p_i$ to be distinct, then the group you describe is cyclic. If you allow repetition of primes, then you will pick up all finite Abelian groups.
$endgroup$
– Geoff Robinson
Aug 4 at 10:35










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















13












$begingroup$

Yes, this is true (provided we add the hypothesis $i_1, ldots, i_n ge 1$), and not hard to prove by considering centralizers of products of cycles in symmetric groups.



According to http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Biographies/Povzner.html, the minimum degree of a permutation representation of an arbitrary abelian group was found in A. Ya. Povzner, Finding groups of permutations of least degree which are isomorphic to a
given Abelian group
, Kharkov Mat. Obshch., 14 (1937) 151–158. (I have not been able to obtain this paper to check.)



Theorem 4.1 in Kay Jin Lim, Specht modules with abelian vertices,
J. Algebraic Combin. 35 (2012) 157–171 states your conjectured result in the special case when all the primes are the same with a reference to Povzner's paper.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$






















    4












    $begingroup$

    Yes. Your notation $n$ is used for two different meanings, so let me denote by $m$ the number of summands. A homomorphism $Gto S_n$ correspond to an action of $G$ on a set with $n$ elements, which can be split into orbits $A_1,...,A_ell$. Each orbit can can be provided with a structure of a group with a surjective homomophism $Gto A_i$. Then, the condition is precisely that the induced map $Gto oplus_i A_i$ is injective. Note the total number of cyclic summands in the right hand side is at least $n$. If $A_i$ is not cyclic, using $abge a+b$ for $a,b>1$, we see that it only decreases the sum of sizes if we split $A_i$ into two parts corresponding to a decomposition $A_i = Boplus C$. So we may assume that all the $A_i$-s are cyclic of order a prime power. By comparing each primary component at a time, we may assume that all the $p_i$-s are a single prime $p$. The result now follows from the following standard lemma



    Lemma: Let $phi: oplus_i mathbbZ/p^a_i to oplus_j mathbbZ/p^b_j$ be injective, with $a_1 ge a_2 ge ...ge a_k$ and $b_1 ge ...ge b_ell$. Then $a_i le b_i$.



    edit: As mensioned correctly by @Richard Lyons, the proof I gave for it was totally incorrect so I deleted it. Here's an hopefully less wrong proof, im really sorry for that.



    Let $Asubseteq B$ be abelian finite $p$-groups. Write $B=mathbbZ/p^k oplus B'$ for $B'$ of exponent smaller than or equal $k$. Let $Bto mathbbZ/p^k$ be the projection. If the composition
    $Ato Bto mathbbZ/p^k$ is not surjective, then $A$ is contained in $pmathbbZ/p^k oplus B$ and we can proceed by induction onthe total number of elements of $B$. Otherwise $A$ contains an element of the form $(1,b)$ for $bin B'$. Since the exponent of $B'$ is no more than $k$, there is a map $mathbbZ/p^kto B'$ mapping $1$ to $b$, and so by applying the automorphism $(x,c)mapsto (x,c-xb)$ we may assume that $(1,0)$ is in $A$. It follows then that $A=mathbbZ/p^k oplus Acap B'$ and we proceed by induction on the number of summands.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$














    • $begingroup$
      the point about notation is a good one, thanks.
      $endgroup$
      – user143954
      Aug 3 at 21:47










    • $begingroup$
      @RichardLyons thank you very much! I hope the new version is correct, but after such a silly mistake Im not sure anymore what is right and what is wrong :-)
      $endgroup$
      – S. carmeli
      Aug 5 at 5:56













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    2 Answers
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    2 Answers
    2






    active

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    active

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    active

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    13












    $begingroup$

    Yes, this is true (provided we add the hypothesis $i_1, ldots, i_n ge 1$), and not hard to prove by considering centralizers of products of cycles in symmetric groups.



    According to http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Biographies/Povzner.html, the minimum degree of a permutation representation of an arbitrary abelian group was found in A. Ya. Povzner, Finding groups of permutations of least degree which are isomorphic to a
    given Abelian group
    , Kharkov Mat. Obshch., 14 (1937) 151–158. (I have not been able to obtain this paper to check.)



    Theorem 4.1 in Kay Jin Lim, Specht modules with abelian vertices,
    J. Algebraic Combin. 35 (2012) 157–171 states your conjectured result in the special case when all the primes are the same with a reference to Povzner's paper.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



















      13












      $begingroup$

      Yes, this is true (provided we add the hypothesis $i_1, ldots, i_n ge 1$), and not hard to prove by considering centralizers of products of cycles in symmetric groups.



      According to http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Biographies/Povzner.html, the minimum degree of a permutation representation of an arbitrary abelian group was found in A. Ya. Povzner, Finding groups of permutations of least degree which are isomorphic to a
      given Abelian group
      , Kharkov Mat. Obshch., 14 (1937) 151–158. (I have not been able to obtain this paper to check.)



      Theorem 4.1 in Kay Jin Lim, Specht modules with abelian vertices,
      J. Algebraic Combin. 35 (2012) 157–171 states your conjectured result in the special case when all the primes are the same with a reference to Povzner's paper.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$

















        13












        13








        13





        $begingroup$

        Yes, this is true (provided we add the hypothesis $i_1, ldots, i_n ge 1$), and not hard to prove by considering centralizers of products of cycles in symmetric groups.



        According to http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Biographies/Povzner.html, the minimum degree of a permutation representation of an arbitrary abelian group was found in A. Ya. Povzner, Finding groups of permutations of least degree which are isomorphic to a
        given Abelian group
        , Kharkov Mat. Obshch., 14 (1937) 151–158. (I have not been able to obtain this paper to check.)



        Theorem 4.1 in Kay Jin Lim, Specht modules with abelian vertices,
        J. Algebraic Combin. 35 (2012) 157–171 states your conjectured result in the special case when all the primes are the same with a reference to Povzner's paper.






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        Yes, this is true (provided we add the hypothesis $i_1, ldots, i_n ge 1$), and not hard to prove by considering centralizers of products of cycles in symmetric groups.



        According to http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Biographies/Povzner.html, the minimum degree of a permutation representation of an arbitrary abelian group was found in A. Ya. Povzner, Finding groups of permutations of least degree which are isomorphic to a
        given Abelian group
        , Kharkov Mat. Obshch., 14 (1937) 151–158. (I have not been able to obtain this paper to check.)



        Theorem 4.1 in Kay Jin Lim, Specht modules with abelian vertices,
        J. Algebraic Combin. 35 (2012) 157–171 states your conjectured result in the special case when all the primes are the same with a reference to Povzner's paper.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited Aug 4 at 15:55

























        answered Aug 3 at 21:34









        Mark WildonMark Wildon

        6,7771 gold badge32 silver badges49 bronze badges




        6,7771 gold badge32 silver badges49 bronze badges
























            4












            $begingroup$

            Yes. Your notation $n$ is used for two different meanings, so let me denote by $m$ the number of summands. A homomorphism $Gto S_n$ correspond to an action of $G$ on a set with $n$ elements, which can be split into orbits $A_1,...,A_ell$. Each orbit can can be provided with a structure of a group with a surjective homomophism $Gto A_i$. Then, the condition is precisely that the induced map $Gto oplus_i A_i$ is injective. Note the total number of cyclic summands in the right hand side is at least $n$. If $A_i$ is not cyclic, using $abge a+b$ for $a,b>1$, we see that it only decreases the sum of sizes if we split $A_i$ into two parts corresponding to a decomposition $A_i = Boplus C$. So we may assume that all the $A_i$-s are cyclic of order a prime power. By comparing each primary component at a time, we may assume that all the $p_i$-s are a single prime $p$. The result now follows from the following standard lemma



            Lemma: Let $phi: oplus_i mathbbZ/p^a_i to oplus_j mathbbZ/p^b_j$ be injective, with $a_1 ge a_2 ge ...ge a_k$ and $b_1 ge ...ge b_ell$. Then $a_i le b_i$.



            edit: As mensioned correctly by @Richard Lyons, the proof I gave for it was totally incorrect so I deleted it. Here's an hopefully less wrong proof, im really sorry for that.



            Let $Asubseteq B$ be abelian finite $p$-groups. Write $B=mathbbZ/p^k oplus B'$ for $B'$ of exponent smaller than or equal $k$. Let $Bto mathbbZ/p^k$ be the projection. If the composition
            $Ato Bto mathbbZ/p^k$ is not surjective, then $A$ is contained in $pmathbbZ/p^k oplus B$ and we can proceed by induction onthe total number of elements of $B$. Otherwise $A$ contains an element of the form $(1,b)$ for $bin B'$. Since the exponent of $B'$ is no more than $k$, there is a map $mathbbZ/p^kto B'$ mapping $1$ to $b$, and so by applying the automorphism $(x,c)mapsto (x,c-xb)$ we may assume that $(1,0)$ is in $A$. It follows then that $A=mathbbZ/p^k oplus Acap B'$ and we proceed by induction on the number of summands.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$














            • $begingroup$
              the point about notation is a good one, thanks.
              $endgroup$
              – user143954
              Aug 3 at 21:47










            • $begingroup$
              @RichardLyons thank you very much! I hope the new version is correct, but after such a silly mistake Im not sure anymore what is right and what is wrong :-)
              $endgroup$
              – S. carmeli
              Aug 5 at 5:56















            4












            $begingroup$

            Yes. Your notation $n$ is used for two different meanings, so let me denote by $m$ the number of summands. A homomorphism $Gto S_n$ correspond to an action of $G$ on a set with $n$ elements, which can be split into orbits $A_1,...,A_ell$. Each orbit can can be provided with a structure of a group with a surjective homomophism $Gto A_i$. Then, the condition is precisely that the induced map $Gto oplus_i A_i$ is injective. Note the total number of cyclic summands in the right hand side is at least $n$. If $A_i$ is not cyclic, using $abge a+b$ for $a,b>1$, we see that it only decreases the sum of sizes if we split $A_i$ into two parts corresponding to a decomposition $A_i = Boplus C$. So we may assume that all the $A_i$-s are cyclic of order a prime power. By comparing each primary component at a time, we may assume that all the $p_i$-s are a single prime $p$. The result now follows from the following standard lemma



            Lemma: Let $phi: oplus_i mathbbZ/p^a_i to oplus_j mathbbZ/p^b_j$ be injective, with $a_1 ge a_2 ge ...ge a_k$ and $b_1 ge ...ge b_ell$. Then $a_i le b_i$.



            edit: As mensioned correctly by @Richard Lyons, the proof I gave for it was totally incorrect so I deleted it. Here's an hopefully less wrong proof, im really sorry for that.



            Let $Asubseteq B$ be abelian finite $p$-groups. Write $B=mathbbZ/p^k oplus B'$ for $B'$ of exponent smaller than or equal $k$. Let $Bto mathbbZ/p^k$ be the projection. If the composition
            $Ato Bto mathbbZ/p^k$ is not surjective, then $A$ is contained in $pmathbbZ/p^k oplus B$ and we can proceed by induction onthe total number of elements of $B$. Otherwise $A$ contains an element of the form $(1,b)$ for $bin B'$. Since the exponent of $B'$ is no more than $k$, there is a map $mathbbZ/p^kto B'$ mapping $1$ to $b$, and so by applying the automorphism $(x,c)mapsto (x,c-xb)$ we may assume that $(1,0)$ is in $A$. It follows then that $A=mathbbZ/p^k oplus Acap B'$ and we proceed by induction on the number of summands.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$














            • $begingroup$
              the point about notation is a good one, thanks.
              $endgroup$
              – user143954
              Aug 3 at 21:47










            • $begingroup$
              @RichardLyons thank you very much! I hope the new version is correct, but after such a silly mistake Im not sure anymore what is right and what is wrong :-)
              $endgroup$
              – S. carmeli
              Aug 5 at 5:56













            4












            4








            4





            $begingroup$

            Yes. Your notation $n$ is used for two different meanings, so let me denote by $m$ the number of summands. A homomorphism $Gto S_n$ correspond to an action of $G$ on a set with $n$ elements, which can be split into orbits $A_1,...,A_ell$. Each orbit can can be provided with a structure of a group with a surjective homomophism $Gto A_i$. Then, the condition is precisely that the induced map $Gto oplus_i A_i$ is injective. Note the total number of cyclic summands in the right hand side is at least $n$. If $A_i$ is not cyclic, using $abge a+b$ for $a,b>1$, we see that it only decreases the sum of sizes if we split $A_i$ into two parts corresponding to a decomposition $A_i = Boplus C$. So we may assume that all the $A_i$-s are cyclic of order a prime power. By comparing each primary component at a time, we may assume that all the $p_i$-s are a single prime $p$. The result now follows from the following standard lemma



            Lemma: Let $phi: oplus_i mathbbZ/p^a_i to oplus_j mathbbZ/p^b_j$ be injective, with $a_1 ge a_2 ge ...ge a_k$ and $b_1 ge ...ge b_ell$. Then $a_i le b_i$.



            edit: As mensioned correctly by @Richard Lyons, the proof I gave for it was totally incorrect so I deleted it. Here's an hopefully less wrong proof, im really sorry for that.



            Let $Asubseteq B$ be abelian finite $p$-groups. Write $B=mathbbZ/p^k oplus B'$ for $B'$ of exponent smaller than or equal $k$. Let $Bto mathbbZ/p^k$ be the projection. If the composition
            $Ato Bto mathbbZ/p^k$ is not surjective, then $A$ is contained in $pmathbbZ/p^k oplus B$ and we can proceed by induction onthe total number of elements of $B$. Otherwise $A$ contains an element of the form $(1,b)$ for $bin B'$. Since the exponent of $B'$ is no more than $k$, there is a map $mathbbZ/p^kto B'$ mapping $1$ to $b$, and so by applying the automorphism $(x,c)mapsto (x,c-xb)$ we may assume that $(1,0)$ is in $A$. It follows then that $A=mathbbZ/p^k oplus Acap B'$ and we proceed by induction on the number of summands.






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$



            Yes. Your notation $n$ is used for two different meanings, so let me denote by $m$ the number of summands. A homomorphism $Gto S_n$ correspond to an action of $G$ on a set with $n$ elements, which can be split into orbits $A_1,...,A_ell$. Each orbit can can be provided with a structure of a group with a surjective homomophism $Gto A_i$. Then, the condition is precisely that the induced map $Gto oplus_i A_i$ is injective. Note the total number of cyclic summands in the right hand side is at least $n$. If $A_i$ is not cyclic, using $abge a+b$ for $a,b>1$, we see that it only decreases the sum of sizes if we split $A_i$ into two parts corresponding to a decomposition $A_i = Boplus C$. So we may assume that all the $A_i$-s are cyclic of order a prime power. By comparing each primary component at a time, we may assume that all the $p_i$-s are a single prime $p$. The result now follows from the following standard lemma



            Lemma: Let $phi: oplus_i mathbbZ/p^a_i to oplus_j mathbbZ/p^b_j$ be injective, with $a_1 ge a_2 ge ...ge a_k$ and $b_1 ge ...ge b_ell$. Then $a_i le b_i$.



            edit: As mensioned correctly by @Richard Lyons, the proof I gave for it was totally incorrect so I deleted it. Here's an hopefully less wrong proof, im really sorry for that.



            Let $Asubseteq B$ be abelian finite $p$-groups. Write $B=mathbbZ/p^k oplus B'$ for $B'$ of exponent smaller than or equal $k$. Let $Bto mathbbZ/p^k$ be the projection. If the composition
            $Ato Bto mathbbZ/p^k$ is not surjective, then $A$ is contained in $pmathbbZ/p^k oplus B$ and we can proceed by induction onthe total number of elements of $B$. Otherwise $A$ contains an element of the form $(1,b)$ for $bin B'$. Since the exponent of $B'$ is no more than $k$, there is a map $mathbbZ/p^kto B'$ mapping $1$ to $b$, and so by applying the automorphism $(x,c)mapsto (x,c-xb)$ we may assume that $(1,0)$ is in $A$. It follows then that $A=mathbbZ/p^k oplus Acap B'$ and we proceed by induction on the number of summands.







            share|cite|improve this answer














            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer








            edited Aug 5 at 5:54

























            answered Aug 3 at 21:47









            S. carmeliS. carmeli

            2,6111 gold badge6 silver badges19 bronze badges




            2,6111 gold badge6 silver badges19 bronze badges














            • $begingroup$
              the point about notation is a good one, thanks.
              $endgroup$
              – user143954
              Aug 3 at 21:47










            • $begingroup$
              @RichardLyons thank you very much! I hope the new version is correct, but after such a silly mistake Im not sure anymore what is right and what is wrong :-)
              $endgroup$
              – S. carmeli
              Aug 5 at 5:56
















            • $begingroup$
              the point about notation is a good one, thanks.
              $endgroup$
              – user143954
              Aug 3 at 21:47










            • $begingroup$
              @RichardLyons thank you very much! I hope the new version is correct, but after such a silly mistake Im not sure anymore what is right and what is wrong :-)
              $endgroup$
              – S. carmeli
              Aug 5 at 5:56















            $begingroup$
            the point about notation is a good one, thanks.
            $endgroup$
            – user143954
            Aug 3 at 21:47




            $begingroup$
            the point about notation is a good one, thanks.
            $endgroup$
            – user143954
            Aug 3 at 21:47












            $begingroup$
            @RichardLyons thank you very much! I hope the new version is correct, but after such a silly mistake Im not sure anymore what is right and what is wrong :-)
            $endgroup$
            – S. carmeli
            Aug 5 at 5:56




            $begingroup$
            @RichardLyons thank you very much! I hope the new version is correct, but after such a silly mistake Im not sure anymore what is right and what is wrong :-)
            $endgroup$
            – S. carmeli
            Aug 5 at 5:56

















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